All things Star Wars

[Corvinus85]

40 minutes ago, Rakib Altinin 1974 said:

You'd have to elaborate on this, because it doesn't seem obvious at all.  Close to which characters?  There is life and development in pretty much all of the major MCU stable of characters.

Poe does have character development in TLJ. He goes from arrogant flyboy to responsible commander. And most of the Marvel-like humor that TLJ was accused of was written for Poe, hence my comparison.

40 minutes ago, Rakib Altinin 1974 said:

A generally terrible character on many different levels, who yet remained essentially a one trick pony, without bringing anything to the overall story or plot, for good or for ill...?  Wait, Poe did even less than that. Maybe I am remembering Jar Jar incorrectly...

You are definitely remembering Jar Jar incorrectly. His presence in any scene that's supposed to be serious dramatically reduces its seriousness, and quickly becomes irritating. Like the battle between the Gungan army and the droid army. And he was promoted to general by the Gungans because he just tagged along with the main crew. Then in Attack of the Clones, he gets another promotion by appearing as some delegate/assistant to Padme, who gives him the responsibility for the critical vote which allows Palpatine to obtain supreme powers and activate the clone army. So I would say, blundering Jar Jar was at the center of way too many things.

I honestly don't understand how you can compare the two characters. I can understand your dislike of Poe, not even in a million years, should these two characters be put on the same level.

[felice]

6 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

The big moment for me was Rey and Kylo and their relationship. I was certain I had his turn to the light pegged, and when he helped her, I was nearly on my feet. But when it was just for him to have more power, I was truly shocked. I loved it. I don't know.

Yes, that was certainly the best part of the movie. Though the way Kylo's defeat of Snoke was handled felt pretty clumsy to me: Snoke narrates his thoughts for the benefit of the audience, and provides yet another demonstration of appalling incompetence by thinking Kylo could possibly conclude that the helpless young woman he has a crush on is his real enemy.

6 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I also am not a fan of the Bechdel test--I think a lot of bad movies can pass it and some good ones cannot.

The Bechdel test doesn't say anything about whether a movie is good or bad, it's just a basic indication of the gender balance of a film. I find it interesting that Last Jedi is being criticised from some quarters as too female-dominated when it's barely got any interaction between women. It has no trouble passing the reverse - Poe & Finn, Finn & DJ, Kylo & Snoke, Kylo & Luke.

6 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

This film, for example, almost all the men were shown to be incorrect when going against women. Poe especially. He fought against a strong woman, placed her as a villain, and it turned out he was an idiot (again), and her plan was sacrificial to save the fleet.

Holdo was an idiot for not telling the crew what the plan was, or even that there was a plan; if Poe's plan had succeeded, he would have saved the ship as well as the crew. Rose caused their mission to fail by parking illegally. Rey was wrong about redeeming Kylo. Leia was wrong about being able to call for backup.

[red snow]

2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Thanks Wert.  All I was asking for was numbers.

Edit:  And Red Snow, thanks.

No worries. I like some actual numbers myself especially how it's rare Hollywood admits profit but is happy to brag about box office. Probably because it acts as a firm if publicity.

Wert nailed the in depth analysis. As he says they could stop making star wars films now and still have made good in the investment. What they need to do now is ensure they aren't left with diminishing returns. Maybe they need to consider a gap at some point if a few years to increase demand? 

[RumHam]

2 minutes ago, red snow said:

No worries. I like some actual numbers myself especially how it's rare Hollywood admits profit but is happy to brag about box office. Probably because it acts as a firm if publicity.

Wert nailed the in depth analysis. As he says they could stop making star wars films now and still have made good in the investment. What they need to do now is ensure they aren't left with diminishing returns. Maybe they need to consider a gap at some point if a few years to increase demand? 

I bet they'll be a fiveish year gap between IX and X. They can release a spin-off or two per year in the interim. But they should try to keep up the notion that the main Star Wars movies are event movies. 

[JGP]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I bet they'll be a fiveish year gap between IX and X. They can release a spin-off or two per year in the interim. But they should try to keep up the notion that the main Star Wars movies are event movies. 

I really like this idea.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

Poe does have character development in TLJ. He goes from arrogant flyboy to responsible commander. And most of the Marvel-like humor that TLJ was accused of was written for Poe, hence my comparison.

You are definitely remembering Jar Jar incorrectly. His presence in any scene that's supposed to be serious dramatically reduces its seriousness, and quickly becomes irritating. Like the battle between the Gungan army and the droid army. And he was promoted to general by the Gungans because he just tagged along with the main crew. Then in Attack of the Clones, he gets another promotion by appearing as some delegate/assistant to Padme, who gives him the responsibility for the critical vote which allows Palpatine to obtain supreme powers and activate the clone army. So I would say, blundering Jar Jar was at the center of way too many things.

I honestly don't understand how you can compare the two characters. I can understand your dislike of Poe, not even in a million years, should these two characters be put on the same level.

I do not, nor did I, find Poe to come away as a credible commander.  He was selfish, arrogant, egotistical, and ultimately a detriment to too much of the Resistance goals.  I honestly do not remember chuckling, let alone laughing, at anything he did.

For the record, I agree with you on your take about Jar Jar. He's impossible to take seriously and a character.  However, I find Poe to be similar in many respects in so much that I find it impossible to take any scene he's in seriously.  Oh sure, it's done differently. Jar Jar is there to appeal to the younger audience and his buffoonish character is a detriment.  However, Poe simply sucks up air when he's in a scene. His one track mind and ego never allows him to actually listen to those around him, let alone his commanders.  That Leia didn't have him thrown in the brig, or at least shot, makes you wonder what he had on her.  

My main comparison to Jar Jar and Poe is that neither character has any redeeming qualities that make you want to root for them. Jar Jar, at least, was ham fistedly used in furtherance of a plot line in Episode II.. 

Based on his actions, as a character, especially in TLJ, I'm fairly certain that, had he been a real person, Poe Dameron would have been a leading figure in the abuse Kelly Marie Tran was subjected to online. 

 

I realize different people have different takes on many things.  Everyone has the Star Wars hill their prepared to die on.  This is mine. Poe is one of the worst SW characters ever.  That and JJ Abrahms was, and is, terrible for the brand. :p

[Darth Richard II]

49 minutes ago, Rakib Altinin 1974 said:

 

Based on his actions, as a character, especially in TLJ, I'm fairly certain that, had he been a real person, Poe Dameron would have been a leading figure in the abuse Kelly Marie Tran was subjected to online.

What the actual fuck?

[Nictarion]

11 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

What the actual fuck?

Seriously. Didn’t think the Poe = Jar Jar comment could be topped in terms of absurdity, but he somehow did. Just wow. 

[Darth Richard II]

Poe's Law in full effect this week.

 

Edit: Ha, no pun intended

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Why do you feel the need to insult?  Are you that childish?  I haven't said anything demeaning at all and yet.  Regardless I'll be ignoring you from now on.  No use.

 

I am fantastically childish. And I got the sense you sere mostly ignoring me already.  

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Rakib Altinin 1974 said:

I do not, nor did I, find Poe to come away as a credible commander.  He was selfish, arrogant, egotistical, and ultimately a detriment to too much of the Resistance goals.  I honestly do not remember chuckling, let alone laughing, at anything he did.

For the record, I agree with you on your take about Jar Jar. He's impossible to take seriously and a character.  However, I find Poe to be similar in many respects in so much that I find it impossible to take any scene he's in seriously.  Oh sure, it's done differently. Jar Jar is there to appeal to the younger audience and his buffoonish character is a detriment.  However, Poe simply sucks up air when he's in a scene. His one track mind and ego never allows him to actually listen to those around him, let alone his commanders.  That Leia didn't have him thrown in the brig, or at least shot, makes you wonder what he had on her.  

My main comparison to Jar Jar and Poe is that neither character has any redeeming qualities that make you want to root for them. Jar Jar, at least, was ham fistedly used in furtherance of a plot line in Episode II.. 

Based on his actions, as a character, especially in TLJ, I'm fairly certain that, had he been a real person, Poe Dameron would have been a leading figure in the abuse Kelly Marie Tran was subjected to online. 

 

I realize different people have different takes on many things.  Everyone has the Star Wars hill their prepared to die on.  This is mine. Poe is one of the worst SW characters ever.  That and JJ Abrahms was, and is, terrible for the brand. :p

So I guess you failed to notice at the end of movie that Poe gave the order to disengage when the speeders were attacking the cannon, because he realized it was quickly becoming a suicidal mission. The Poe at the start of the movie wouldn't have done that. He then stops Finn to charge outside to help Luke, realizing that there is something else going on there. Again, the earlier Poe would have been right up there with Finn. That is good character growth, and certainly not the mark of a one-track mind individual.

In TFA, Poe resists torture, (as much as he can against someone like Kylo Ren), and he actively encourages his fellow pilots to not be intimidated by the First Order. I don't think that's the type a guy who would lead bullies and bigots. 

But if you really are prepared to die on the proverbial hill you've made for yourself, I won't stop you.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Poe's Law in full effect this week.

 

Edit: Ha, no pun intended

 

5 hours ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

Poe does have character development in TLJ. He goes from arrogant flyboy to responsible commander. And most of the Marvel-like humor that TLJ was accused of was written for Poe, hence my comparison.

When I saw Poe on the at the rebel base in TFA my first thought was, "Oh, cool, he's a clone!"  After all, why wouldn't the resistance clone their best pilot to fight the First Order?

Maybe they said "Hey, 'member the Clone Wars?  Since we can't afford a WMD...".  Maybe the original Poe volunteered for it.  That could have been interesting.  It would have been an interesting callback to the prequels.

Nope. They just miracle'd his ass off Jaku because why not.

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Seriously. Didn’t think the Poe = Jar Jar comment could be topped in terms of absurdity, but he somehow did. Just wow. 

 

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

What the actual fuck?

I'll step back from the hyperbole a bit.

But I will not step back from the stance that Poe is simply a terrible character.

[Jaxom 1974]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

So I guess you failed to notice at the end of movie that Poe gave the order to disengage when the speeders were attacking the cannon, because he realized it was quickly becoming a suicidal mission. The Poe at the start of the movie wouldn't have done that. He then stops Finn to charge outside to help Luke, realizing that there is something else going on there. Again, the earlier Poe would have been right up there with Finn. That is good character growth, and certainly not the mark of a one-track mind individual.

In TFA, Poe resists torture, (as much as he can against someone like Kylo Ren), and he actively encourages his fellow pilots to not be intimidated by the First Order. I don't think that's the type a guy who would lead bullies and bigots. 

But if you really are prepared to die on the proverbial hill you've made for yourself, I won't stop you.

Again, Poe was the author of all of those troubles.  Having an epiphany at the last moment doesn't abrogate the fact that he put them all there with his arrogance and little mutiny because he thought he knew better than the Admiral.

Again, perhaps it was too hyperbolic to go in that direction, but yes, Poe is a terrible character who did terrible things without any lasting consequence, and he still ended up in charge.  

[Corvinus85]

16 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

 

When I saw Poe on the at the rebel base in TFA my first thought was, "Oh, cool, he's a clone!"  After all, why wouldn't the resistance clone their best pilot to fight the First Order?

Maybe they said "Hey, 'member the Clone Wars?  Since we can't afford a WMD...".  Maybe the original Poe volunteered for it.  That could have been interesting.  It would have been an interesting callback to the prequels.

Nope. They just miracle'd his ass off Jaku because why not.

His escape from Jakku was, for sure, weak. But we weren't going to get a bigger reference to the Clone Wars than the one we got, which was when Kylo Ren questions whether or not the First Order could do better with a clone army. Because, ultimately, only bad guys can be in charge of clones. It is known.

[Darth Richard II]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus of Teranga said:

His escape from Jakku was, for sure, weak. But we weren't going to get a bigger reference to the Clone Wars than the one we got, which was when Kylo Ren questions whether or not the First Order could do better with a clone army. Because, ultimately, only bad guys can be in charge of clones. It is known.

I love that part actually.

"Hey, what about the prequels?"

"QUIET! We don't talk about those!"

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

I love that part actually.

"Hey, what about the prequels?"

"QUIET! We don't talk about those!"

Exactly.

[sperry]

About a third of Disney's total revenue comes from parks and resorts. A lot of that has to be Star Wars themed, and that has to be a significant revenue driver in that area.

[Yukle]

7 hours ago, felice said:

The Bechdel test doesn't say anything about whether a movie is good or bad, it's just a basic indication of the gender balance of a film. I find it interesting that Last Jedi is being criticised from some quarters as too female-dominated when it's barely got any interaction between women. It has no trouble passing the reverse - Poe & Finn, Finn & DJ, Kylo & Snoke, Kylo & Luke.

To add to this: The Bechdel "test" in fairness was a joke meant to highlight a larger issue of under representation of women. In and of itself it's not a measure of equality in films and films must do much more than merely have women in them.

For instance, it'd be nice to have complex female characters with deep emotions and character arcs.

[felice]

2 hours ago, Yukle said:

For instance, it'd be nice to have complex female characters with deep emotions and character arcs.

I think they did a pretty decent job of that with Rey in Last Jedi - better than in Force Awakens. But it would have been good if she'd had any other women to interact with.