Robb instead of Catelyn

[Canon Claude]

Been a while since I read the Game of Thrones book but I recall the moment where Cat decides to leave for King’s Landing with Ser Rodrik, but not before Robb himself offers to go in her stead (or it could only have happened on the show but anyway). Would much have changed if it was Robb? Obviously Baelish wouldn’t have bothered to help Robb, but then again Robb might not have tried to arrest Tyrion (physically attack him, maybe). But would Robb going down to King’s Landing have done more harm or more good?

[Kandrax]

Even if he still arrest Tyrion, he wouldn't take him to Eyrie.

[Lord Lannister]

Robb probably doesn't manage to escape public notice of the Lannisters in King's Landing. Heck Littlefinger might be the one who points Robb's presence out to Cersei. I don't think it would stop the conflict between Stark and Lannister. Ned was already looking into Jon Arryn's death, they suspected that the Lannisters were the ones who pushed Bran and Littlefinger would still actively be trying to stoke the fire. It would just take a different form.

[The hairy bear]

IIRC, Littlefinger discovered that Catelyn and Rodrik were coming in secret before they even reach King's Landing. So, in all likelihood, if it had been Robb and Rodrik they would have also been intercepted by Littlefinger's man just as they reached KL, and everything would have gone more or less the same.

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Obviously Baelish wouldn’t have bothered to help Robb

Littlefinger didn't help Catelyn. Quite the opposite. He took advantage of her past relationship, and manipulated her in order to gain the trust of Ned.

If it had been Robb, I also don't think much would have changed here. Littlefinger would have offered to help Robb get in contact with his father, he would have accepted (it wouldn't be possible to smuggle into the Red Keep under a false identity), and at their meeting Littlefinger would have lied again about the ownership of the blade.

59 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Robb probably doesn't manage to escape public notice of the Lannisters in King's Landing.

I don't see why. This is a medieval world when the faces of the noblemen are just not known. In King's Landing, only the people who part of Roberts retinue when he visited Winterfell could recognize Robb.

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Robb might not have tried to arrest Tyrion (physically attack him, maybe).

That's harder to say. It would be much more difficult for Robb to summon the Rivermen to their side (Catelyn was Hoster's favorite daughter and had been heiress to Riverrun for years, while Robb was not known in the Riverlands). Perhaps he would have tried to challenge Tyrion to a duel, but once he refused, I'm not sure what would happen.

 

 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

If Robb went south to King's Landing instead of Catelyn, Bran wouldn't have been allowed riding, which means Osha never meets up with him and is taken into the service of House Stark. 

On the other hand, Robb hanging out with his dad is one of the things I always wanted to see in the series. We never get one-on-one interactions between those two, despite them having so much love and respect for each other. 

Plus, Robb wouldn't have drawn Littlefinger into Ned's affairs the same way that Catelyn did. Robb might have sailed back north again when he gave his father the message. And even if he did ride north and bump into Tyrion, he wouldn't have confronted Tyrion the way his mother did. He's alone in a region of Westeros that he doesn't know, and he has no friends except Ser Rodrik, who would have restrained him from doing anything. Ultimately it would have been better if Robb went south instead of Catelyn, since Ned's hand wouldn't have been forced so quickly, the War of the Five Kings wouldn't have started (at least, not as soon as it did), and a lot more people might have survived.

[nara]

If Robb went, Theon would probably have accompanied him. Options for what would have happened: 

1) Littlefinger would intercept them and bring them to his brothel (as he did Cat) and they would never have left--living lives of debauchery! ;)

2) Robb would have gotten into a fight with Joff (remember, they already were close to a fight in Winterfell) and that would have ignited the Stark Lannister feud, instead of the kidnapping of Tyrion.

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, nara said:

 

2) Robb would have gotten into a fight with Joff (remember, they already were close to a fight in Winterfell) and that would have ignited the Stark Lannister feud, instead of the kidnapping of Tyrion.

How the heck would Robb ever get close enough to Joffrey to start a fight? He’s the Hand’s son, sure, but it’s not like Ned was spending his time babysitting Joffrey. Plus, Robb wasn’t stupid, he knew he had to keep a low profile.

[Lord Lannister]

On 5/24/2018 at 12:30 PM, The hairy bear said:

I don't see why. This is a medieval world when the faces of the noblemen are just not known. In King's Landing, only the people who part of Roberts retinue when he visited Winterfell could recognize Robb.

He doesn't need to be recognized on sight. Both Littlefinger and Varys were aware of Rodrik asking questions on Catelyn's behalf and she was relatively discrete. Robb is a young man and more likely to make a mistake or be brash. He would end up having to announce himself at some point to get entry to the Red Keep and chances are an informant to someone is going to take notice.

[nara]

On 5/25/2018 at 8:47 AM, Canon Claude said:

How the heck would Robb ever get close enough to Joffrey to start a fight? He’s the Hand’s son, sure, but it’s not like Ned was spending his time babysitting Joffrey. Plus, Robb wasn’t stupid, he knew he had to keep a low profile.

It would have been hard for Robb to be undetected in KL, in the same way that Cat was seen by LF and Varys.  Or Robb might have been spotted trying to make contact with Ned, the girls, Jory, or another of the Stark entourage.  (He would probably not have trusted Petyr enough to meet in his brothel the way Cat did.)  Once that happened, he might have to pay his respects to the king and queen and make some excuse for his presence.  After that, any interaction with Joff could have led to a conflict, especially after the deaths of Lady and Mycah. 

Yes, Robb should know enough to keep a low profile, but he's only 14 or 15 at this point, and we know he is somewhat impulsive (marrying Jeyne).   Also, he did not have enough sense to be polite to the queen's brother (Tyrion) at Winterfell, so clearly tact and discretion are not his strengths.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:04 AM, Canon Claude said:

Been a while since I read the Game of Thrones book but I recall the moment where Cat decides to leave for King’s Landing with Ser Rodrik, but not before Robb himself offers to go in her stead (or it could only have happened on the show but anyway). Would much have changed if it was Robb? Obviously Baelish wouldn’t have bothered to help Robb, but then again Robb might not have tried to arrest Tyrion (physically attack him, maybe). But would Robb going down to King’s Landing have done more harm or more good?

Of course Robb would do the same thing. The story only works if Tyrion gets arrested, is tried by combat, meets Bronn, meets the mountain clans and then becomes hand. Anything else is rewriting someone else's story and is fan fic, which the author of this seres hates, thinks is uncreative and has a general disdain for folks who engage in it. 

[Ylath's Snout]

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Anything else is rewriting someone else's story and is fan fic, which the author of this seres hates, thinks is uncreative and has a general disdain for folks who engage in it. 

Is this why you are so down on what you call "fan fic threads"? Actually that would be pretty hypocritical of him as he was a writer on the show Beauty and the Beast. If one wanted to be snotty about it you could say that show is "just a modern!AU version of the original story". It'd sort of be worse as he was paid for "distorting Gabrielle-Suzanne Barbot de Villeneuve original" while fanfics writers don't make a dime of twisting aSoIaF around for their own and others amusement.

Anyway GRRM isn't  some monarch that rules over everything related to his works with an iron-fist.* As long as the fanfic writer isn't profiting illegally or harassing Marting to read the fic/whatever then people that like that sort of thing are free to engage in it while people like you and Martin have a very easy time avoiding it.

*That is to say while he hold the copyright and so forth, fans have plenty of "rights" as long as they keep within the margins of the law.

[Canon Claude]

3 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Is this why you are so down on what you call "fan fic threads"? Actually that would be pretty hypocritical of him as he was a writer on the show Beauty and the Beast. If one wanted to be snotty about it you could say that show is "just a modern!AU version of the original story". It'd sort of be worse as he was paid for "distorting Gabrielle-Suzanne Barbot de Villeneuve original" while fanfics writers don't make a dime of twisting aSoIaF around for their own and others amusement.

Anyway GRRM isn't  some monarch that rules over everything related to his works with an iron-fist.* As long as the fanfic writer isn't profiting illegally or harassing Marting to read the fic/whatever then people that like that sort of thing are free to engage in it while people like you and Martin have a very easy time avoiding it.

*That is to say while he hold the copyright and so forth, fans have plenty of "rights" as long as they keep within the margins of the law.

Well said. That part about Martin’s time on Beauty and the Beast was actually unknown by me, that changes a bit how I feel about his disdain for fan fiction.

[Dorian Martell's son]

13 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Is this why you are so down on what you call "fan fic threads"?

Only in the westeros forums 

10 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Well said. That part about Martin’s time on Beauty and the Beast was actually unknown by me, that changes a bit how I feel about his disdain for fan fiction.

Writing for a TV show is not fan fic. in the same way that the show is not fan fic. That is an adaptation. changing the authors story in the written medium is

[Ylath's Snout]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Writing for a TV show is not fan fic.

I'm not begrudging GRRM a paycheck but other than GRRM getting payed how is "Robb going south instead of Catelyn" meaningfully any different from "Beauty and the Beast but it is all in modern day and also Ron Pearlman all up in this!"? They both twist around a familiar story and characters in new and hopefully entertaining ways. They are both divergent from the original. Lastly in neither case did the original written give some sort of explicit permission for the story.

I don't want to put words in your mouth but are "fanfics" only okay if the writer has been dead a couple of hundred years?

The fact that copyright has lapsed on Beauty and the Beast means that GRRM could lawfully partake in profit from the program but I don't see how it intrinsically makes GRRM's mucking about anymore permissible than some theoretical fanfic writers mucking.

Of course the second a fanfic writer start to make a profit directly of a work using copyrighted characters/e.t.c. thinks change.

At the end of the day it is likely someone paid to write will be better at it than a amatuer but that is just a question of skill.

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

in the same way that the show is not fan fic. That is an adaptation. changing the authors story in the written medium is

I don't see how that is relevant, both a theoretical text about "Robb going south" and Beauty and the Beast 1987 muck-about with the original text. Are you saying that a "Robb going south" fan-work would be fine if it was a audio drama, a flash animation or carved in pictographs on a mountainside?

As long as people don't to unlawfully profit or harass GRRM by trying to make him read their fics or in other ways directly bother him, what is the harm?

Modern fanfics goes back at-least as far as Sherlock Holmes. So this is hardly something new that only GRRM has to deal with.

[Dorian Martell's son]

34 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I'm not begrudging GRRM a paycheck but other than GRRM getting payed how is "Robb going south instead of Catelyn" meaningfully any different from "Beauty and the Beast but it is all in modern day and also Ron Pearlman all up in this!"? They both twist around a familiar story and characters in new and hopefully entertaining ways. They are both divergent from the original. Lastly in neither case did the original written give some sort of explicit permission for the story.

for this, one is an adaptation into a different medium not existing when the original story was written so there is no comparison. For adaptations, changes are necessary for a whole host of reasons 

[Dorian Martell's son]

35 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth but are "fanfics" only okay if the writer has been dead a couple of hundred years

GRRM specifically states he does not like it and does not want people doing it to his work. 

36 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

The fact that copyright has lapsed on Beauty and the Beast means that GRRM could lawfully partake in profit from the program but I don't see how it intrinsically makes GRRM's mucking about anymore permissible than some theoretical fanfic writers mucking.

you don't have to see it. the important thing is the author who's art we respect says he dislikes it. 

37 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Of course the second a fanfic writer start to make a profit directly of a work using copyrighted characters/e.t.c. thinks change.

That is a legal issue, not a respect issue 

37 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

At the end of the day it is likely someone paid to write will be better at it than a amatuer but that is just a question of skill.

This is irrelevant. He also said he does not want other pro authors continuing his work 

39 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I don't see how that is relevant, both a theoretical text about "Robb going south" and Beauty and the Beast 1987 muck-about with the original text. Are you saying that a "Robb going south" fan-work would be fine if it was a audio drama, a flash animation or carved in pictographs on a mountainside?

I can't help that you are unable to  distinguish between the written word, audio recordings, television/film or pictographs. I suggest researching all of them and then getting back to me. 

42 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

As long as people don't to unlawfully profit or harass GRRM by trying to make him read their fics or in other ways directly bother him, what is the harm?

How about respecting the creator? is that important?

43 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Modern fanfics goes back at-least as far as Sherlock Holmes. So this is hardly something new that only GRRM has to deal with.

And if Arthur Doyle said he hated it I would go to bat for him as well  

[Ylath's Snout]

44 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That is a legal issue, not a respect issue 

I just wanted to be a clear as possible about when GRRM's rights instead of wishes were being violated.

 

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

GRRM specifically states he does not like it and does not want people doing it to his work. 

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you don't have to see it. the important thing is the author who's art we respect says he dislikes it. 

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

How about respecting the creator? is that important?

Well frankly tough for him him but people that write fanfics are well within their rights to do so. If he doesn't like fanfics of his works then we are obliged out of courtesy to not shove them down his throat, metaphorically speaking, but his opinion isn't law. I respect GRRM's skills and effort but that doesn't mean I or anyone else have to slavishly obey what he says.

I am going to make a exaggerated comparison so let me just say that:  Fanfiction is in no way as important as equal rights so take this with a mountain of salt.

If I like Ender Game that does in no way, shape or form mean that I have to oppose same sex marriage just because Orson Scott Card does. The same applies to GRRM.

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And if Arthur Doyle said he hated it I would go to bat for him as well  

He did, so why don't you go do that for a while? Heck he grew to hate Holme because of his rabid fans so you better go shout at everyone that likes a Sherlock mystery.

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I can't help that you are unable to  distinguish between the written word, audio recordings, television/film or pictographs. I suggest researching all of them and then getting back to me. 

37 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

for this, one is an adaptation into a different medium not existing when the original story was written so there is no comparison. For adaptations, changes are necessary for a whole host of reasons 

Specifically I understand that adaption forces you to make all sorts of change, although GRRM wrote an episode of BatB were the Beast has to protect a Irish peace activist from getting assassinated. In another Beauty has to marry another suitor to protect the Beasts underground home. Call me a clueless primer but I don't see how any of that was necessary to adapt BatB for tv. Seems like screwing around with other people's' OCs if you ask me.

In general I don't see why the medium of the derivative work matters in any way to whether GRRM is being a bit hypocritical on the subject. 

[Rosetta Stone]

Robb is a bigger idiot than Catelyn.  The Starks are not the smartest of people.  I am sure Robb would not do any better than Catelyn.  Robb has never been away from home and he will have a greater chance of making poor decisions compared to Cat.  

[Katerine459]

What-if scenarios serve a very real purpose: they deepen our understanding of the characters by forcing us to think about what they would do if things had gone differently. Even if you think it constitutes fanfic (and it really, really doesn't... fanfic has dialog and internal thoughts and storytelling, whereas this is just a written outline of a speculative plot)... the benefits to the readers far, far outweigh GRRM's rather ignorant views on fanfiction. The only legitimate reason GRRM has to be against fanfic in general, is if somebody reads so much fanfic that they begin to confuse what GRRM wrote with what fanfic authors wrote... and there's no risk of that happening, with just writing/reading what-if outlines. Because they're outlines. Not fiction writing at all, fanfic or otherwise.

That said, I have a hard time picturing any situation where Robb could have gone to KL instead of Catelyn. For one thing, Bran was still in a coma, so if Robb had gone to KL, this would have resulted in no Stark at Winterfell. Unless you count 3-year-old Rickon, or Bran in a coma.

But if it had happened, I don't think LF would have fed Robb the same story he fed Catelyn. So Robb would have had no reason to confront Tyrion in the first place. I think the idea that he would have just given Ned the message and returned home is the most likely. Or LF might even have told Robb the truth... that either he didn't know who the knife belonged to, or that it belonged to Robert, and if he'd told Robb the latter... that might have been interesting, but he probably still would have told Ned and returned home. But it could have driven a pretty deep wedge between Ned and Robert. Ned, hurt and confused, would have confronted Robert about it, and Robert wouldn't have known anything about it. From there, it's a toss-up whether Robert would have avoided the subject altogether, or whether he would have actually figured out that it was Joffrey... and then avoided the subject. It's possible that the big conflict would have wound up being between Ned and Robert, and not the Starks and the Lannisters. All assuming, of course, that Ned would believe LF's word on anything, without Catelyn there to vouch for him.

Back at Winterfell, Tyrion would have gotten the same chilly reception when passing through. I don't know how Catelyn would have responded when it came to Tyrion offering the saddle plans. She would probably be feeling very overprotective and suspicious of anything coming from a Lannister, though, so she probably wouldn't have let Bran ride. So, yeah, no Osha, unless their band runs into the Starks at some other time. Tyrion probably would have wound up continuing on his way, unmolested.

That's about as far as I can think it through at the moment. It's past my bedtime.

[Walda]

I can see two things that would be different if Robb went to King's Landing.

1/ Robb does not have the dagger cuts in his hands that prove the Catspaw was harmful.

2/ If Robb was in King's Landing, Catelyn would hold Tyrion captive at Winterfell when he visited with Yoren et al.

Robb seems to me to be a bit of an idiot Savant - great at setting up winning battles, more like his Uncle Edmure as a diplomat or negotiator, only not so lucky. The way he and Jon saved the lives of the pups in the snow is characteristic. Robb got all imperious when Theon showed his steel: “Put away your sword, Greyjoy...We will keep these pups.”(AGoT, Ch.01 BranI)

Jon had realised long time before that Eddard, not Theon, would decide if the pups lived or died. Jon had also realised his 'five Starks, five pups' narrative would be more powerful if both the Stark boys were holding pups and going 'Daddy, can we keep them please.' While he gave Robb all the credit the older son craved, he knew the real persuader would be Bran, after Eddard had executed a man in front of him, and attempted to justify it with the 'swings the sword' speech.

So, Robb would be as much a pawn of Littlefinger and the spider as Catelyn was, or more. And Petyr would make sure Catelyn knew the dagger was Tyrion's before Tyrion had seen the final saddle design and gone on his way. Not sure if Varys would be right onto the arrest of Lord Tyrion before Robb set foot in King's Landing - his informer seemed to know of the fire in the Library, but not of the catspaw in the sickroom.

But they would have Robb cornered before he had a chance to leave the capital, if not before he had a chance to arrive. However talented at skulking about Robb proved to be, he and his father both would be Cersei's hostages in the Red Keep against Catelyn's hostage at Winterfell. Robert wouldn't be happy about it, but he would not be so flagrantly unjust nor so undiplomatic to favour the Starks over the Lannisters or vise versa. 

As long as she was at the Eyrie, and nobody was threatening her or Robert, Lysa would be running with the hares and the hounds and whomever else Petyr Baelish suggested. I can imagine Tyrion getting to the bottom of the mystery of the dagger soon enough while he was at the scene of the crime, even if the dagger itself was in King's Landing. Between them, Tyrion and Maester Luwin would figure out how the myrish glass got where it was found, and that someone on the small council was dicking with Lysa and Catelyn. 

And after lunch Tyrion could help Maester Luwin design a basket that allowed Bran to sit lower down on Hodor's back, with a build-in sissy bar to warn Hodor/protect Bran's skull, maybe some straps that would prevent Bran falling from the basket when Hodor bent over, maybe even a frame to distribute the load on Hodor's spine. (Really, Maester Luwin posted in the design of that basket. And it bothers me.)  

Eddard isn't so quick at getting to the bottom of things, and he would have his hands full just stopping Robb from swinging a sword at Jaime or whomever the immediate threat seemed to be.

I'm pretty sure Tywin started gathering his host and massing it at the Golden Tooth when he left the capital after Joffrey's Name Day tourney, while the Hand sickened and died. I'd do the same if I was Warden of the West. Better safe than sorry, no need to rush in and demand Robert give the poisoned chalice of the Hand to him.

Catelyn was certain Gregor was "no more than Tywin's catspaw", and correctly identifies Tywin as the greater threat to her. 'Catspaw' is an easy word to throw around when the threat you have could not possibly have come from the enemy you want to have. I'm not at all sure that it was Tywin's idea that Clegane start reeving the riverlands. I'm guessing it was more like Robb with Stone Mill, he figured it was better to wear it with private irritation than reprimand his henchman publicly. Although it looks to me, all through that war, that Tywin had positioned Ser Gregor in the most dangerous part of every battlefield, and in every battle he could. Ser Gregor gets the thankless tasks, the hard graft, and goes at it dutifully, like he expects no more. I wonder what happened to his third bride, and if she had been a Darry.