Robb instead of Catelyn

[Ylath's Snout]

2 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Robb has never been away from home and he will have a greater chance of making poor decisions compared to Cat. 

I am sure that Robb would get into all sorts of trouble, especially so if LF got his grubby mitts on him. 

---------------------

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

What-if scenarios serve a very real purpose: they deepen our understanding of the characters by forcing us to think about what they would do if things had gone differently... ...the benefits to the readers far, far outweigh GRRM's rather ignorant views on fanfiction.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Not every what-ifs will result in some sudden insight but some of them certainly can. The genderswapped thread a while back made me think about Cersei and how a lot of her delusions about how clever she is would not taken the same form if she had been raised as a man and put through the ringer by Tywin.

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

Even if you think it constitutes fanfic (and it really, really doesn't... fanfic has dialog and internal thoughts and storytelling, whereas this is just a written outline of a speculative plot)...

 

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

I don't think LF would have fed Robb the same story he fed Catelyn. So Robb would have had no reason to confront Tyrion in the first place. I think the idea that he would have just given Ned the message and returned home is the most likely. Or LF might even have told Robb the truth...

I can't help but feel that LF would relish the opportunity to do some pretty messed up things to Robb if he got ahold of him in King's Landing. What great way to get back at those Starks than ruining the Honorable Lord Stark's heir. Getting him hooked on drugs/hookers or create all sorts of other blackmail material seems like a very LF thing to do.

[Ylath's Snout]

5 minutes ago, Walda said:

2/ If Robb was in King's Landing, Catelyn would hold Tyrion captive at Winterfell when he visited with Yoren et al.

Are you sure about that? Sure Cat doesn't seems to like the Imp one but without LF lying about who the dagger belongs why would she risk so much by taking Tyrion hostage?

My take was always that Cat nabbing Tyrion was a combination of anger from LF lies and the fact that Tyrion recognised her at the inn. Those two things wouldn't be a factor for Cat at Winterfell.

8 minutes ago, Walda said:

I can imagine Tyrion getting to the bottom of the mystery of the dagger soon enough while he was at the scene of the crime, even if the dagger itself was in King's Landing. Between them, Tyrion and Maester Luwin would figure out how the myrish glass got where it was found, and that someone on the small council was dicking with Lysa and Catelyn.

CSI Winterfell seems like a pretty good show. I'd watch that. 

[Walda]

4 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

why would she risk so much by taking Tyrion hostage?

Baelish would get a message to her, probably through Lysa, casting blame on the nearest Lannister, the minute he heard from his dockside informers that Robb was bringing the dagger to King's Landing.

 

6 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

CSI Winterfell seems like a pretty good show

Yeah, the scene as it is written is more like Scooby Doo without Fred, Daphne, or Velma.

[Ylath's Snout]

10 minutes ago, Walda said:

Baelish would get a message to her, probably through Lysa, casting blame on the nearest Lannister, the minute he heard from his dockside informers that Robb was bringing the dagger to King's Landing.

Alright, I could see that. It would be a question of timing by that point.

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I just wanted to be a clear as possible about when GRRM's rights instead of wishes were being violated.

Why? We were never talking about his legal rights. We were talking about respect 

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Well frankly tough for him him but people that write fanfics are well within their rights to do so. 

Again, respect, not legal rights.

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

If he doesn't like fanfics of his works then we are obliged out of courtesy to not shove them down his throat, metaphorically speaking, but his opinion isn't law. I respect GRRM's skills and effort but that doesn't mean I or anyone else have to slavishly obey what he says.

For the third time, we are not talking about legal rights. And we aren't talking about simply respecting his writing skills. This is about respecting the artist, and their art. He wants the characters, that he created to only be written by him. This is what should be respected.  

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I am going to make a exaggerated comparison so let me just say that:  Fanfiction is in no way as important as equal rights so take this with a mountain of salt.

#4

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

If I like Ender Game that does in no way, shape or form mean that I have to oppose same sex marriage just because Orson Scott Card does. The same applies to GRRM.

Respecting an artist's desire about what they want their characters to do is not the same as being a bigot. Maybe less exaggeration next time. 

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

He did, so why don't you go do that for a while? Heck he grew to hate Holme because of his rabid fans so you better go shout at everyone that likes a Sherlock mystery.

 He said nothing of fan fic. He listened to his fans who demanded more Holmes, and he gave it to them. He was bitter that his fans wanted more of a character that he deemed less important than his historical writing. 

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Specifically I understand that adaption forces you to make all sorts of change, although GRRM wrote an episode of BatB were the Beast has to protect a Irish peace activist from getting assassinated. In another Beauty has to marry another suitor to protect the Beasts underground home. Call me a clueless primer but I don't see how any of that was necessary to adapt BatB for tv. Seems like screwing around with other people's' OCs if you ask me.

B&TB was not a retelling of the old story. It was a modern soap that happened to use similar characters. The comparison is baseless. 

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

In general I don't see why the medium of the derivative work matters in any way to whether GRRM is being a bit hypocritical on the subject. 

That is because you are not making a career with your art and creativity. Consumer vs creator

[Ylath's Snout]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

B&TB was not a retelling of the old story. It was a modern soap that happened to use similar characters. The comparison is baseless. 

 Suddenly it isn't about adoption but "similar characters", nice dodge.

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, respect, not legal rights.

5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

For the third time, we are not talking about legal rights. And we aren't talking about simply respecting his writing skills. This is about respecting the artist, and their art. He wants the characters, that he created to only be written by him. This is what should be respected.  

I wanted to make a clear distinction between what legal rights GRRM has and where it goes into "that just like his opinion man" territory. People have every right to make fanfics and GRRM might object but he can't and shouldn't stop them from doing so. 

He is free to ensure that noone can write officially license ASoIaF material but that is it.

 

19 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Respecting an artist's desire about what they want their characters to do is not the same as being a bigot. Maybe less exaggeration next time. 

Oh come on! You are being disingenuous, I said in the previous sentence that you clearly read because you quote it that it was a exaggerated comparison. Orson Scott Card was just the first example that came to mind but the point still stands.  Liking a creators works does not bind me to respect or follow their opinions .

26 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That is because you are not making a career with your art and creativity. Consumer vs creator

First off how do you know what my career is? I sure don't list it anywhere in this website.

Furthermore I am of the opinion that both discussing "what if" scenarios and writing/reading fanfics are valid ways for fans to "consume" art. Just reading a story and saying "well that's that then" isn't how everyone consume them. 

Noone is going to mistake a story about Thero running a hardware store on tumblr or a thread pondering how characters would react in a different scenario for GRRM original story.

Should threads about theories, character reinterpretation or other thing that might skirt too close to some arbitrary "fanfic line" be harassed or banned as well to plase GRRM?

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

 Suddenly it isn't about adoption but "similar characters", nice dodge.

I think you meant adaptation. And that is exactly what an adaptation is. Either way, your comparison is baseless despite your attempt to play verbal dodgeball.  

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

I wanted to make a clear distinction between what legal rights GRRM has and where it goes into "that just like his opinion man" territory. People have every right to make fanfics and GRRM might object but he can't and shouldn't stop them from doing so. 

He is free to ensure that noone can write officially license ASoIaF material but that is it.

Your lack of respect for the author and his art is evident. There is no need to argue this any more. 

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Oh come on! You are being disingenuous, I said in the previous sentence that you clearly read because you quote it that it was a exaggerated comparison. Orson Scott Card was just the first example that came to mind but the point still stands.  Liking a creators works does not bind me to respect or follow their opinions .

your need to deflect your lack of respect by offering an absurd scenario as a comparison obvious. no need to elaborate more. I am surprised you haven't invoked hitler. That is usually where people go when they can't debate worth a crap. 

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

First off how do you know what my career is? I sure don't list it anywhere in this website.

Alright, put up or shut up. Show me what your Art is. I will be waiting........

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Furthermore I am of the opinion that both discussing "what if" scenarios and writing/reading fanfics are valid ways for fans to "consume" art. Just reading a story and saying "well that's that then" isn't how everyone consume them. 
Noone is going to mistake a story about Thero running a hardware store on tumblr or a thread pondering how characters would react in a different scenario for GRRM original story.
Should threads about theories, character reinterpretation or other thing that might skirt too close to some arbitrary "fanfic line" be harassed or banned as well to plase GRRM?

 I will reply to this once you show what your creativity is that you make a living off of. My guess is you have none, because if you did you would respect other artists. 
There is no need to reply to this if you don't show what your art is. Any reply without it is just a confirmation of everything I have said. 
You have your chance.
Don't be a hypocrite 

[Katerine459]

30 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I think you meant adaptation. And that is exactly what an adaptation is. Either way, your comparison is baseless despite your attempt to play verbal dodgeball.  

Your lack of respect for the author and his art is evident. There is no need to argue this any more. 

your need to deflect your lack of respect by offering an absurd scenario as a comparison obvious. no need to elaborate more. I am surprised you haven't invoked hitler. That is usually where people go when they can't debate worth a crap. 

Alright, put up or shut up. Show me what your Art is. I will be waiting........

 I will reply to this once you show what your creativity is that you make a living off of. My guess is you have none, because if you did you would respect other artists. 
There is no need to reply to this if you don't show what your art is. Any reply without it is just a confirmation of everything I have said. 
You have your chance.
Don't be a hypocrite 

The fact that this argument is happening in this particular thread is silly.

Speculating about what would have happened if X had happened differently is objectively no closer to fanfic territory than speculating about what will happen in the future of the series is... and the latter is 90% of everything that goes on in these forums! In fact, roughly 90% of all actual fanfic of ongoing series is also speculating about what will happen in the future of a series, so clearly that can't be the difference between fanfic and not-fanfic.

Put another way, the difference between fanfic and speculative analysis is not whether it's about "what-if" in the future, or "what-if" in the past. Here's the actual difference between speculative analysis and fanfiction: Fanfiction involves storytelling.

What's going on in this thread is speculative analysis. A list of events and reasons is not enough to qualify as "storytelling." It's no different than 90% of everything else that goes on in these forums.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Speculating about what would have happened if X had happened differently is objectively no closer to fanfic territory than speculating about what will happen in the future of the series is... and the latter is 90% of everything that goes on in these forums! In fact, roughly 90% of all actual fanfic of ongoing series is also speculating about what will happen in the future of a series, so clearly that can't be the difference between fanfic and not-fanfic.

Put another way, the difference between fanfic and speculative analysis is not whether it's about "what-if" in the future, or "what-if" in the past. Here's the actual difference between speculative analysis and fanfiction: Fanfiction involves storytelling.

What's going on in this thread is speculative analysis. A list of events and reasons is not enough to qualify as "storytelling." It's no different than 90% of everything else that goes on in these forums.

The difference is between what has been written and what hasn't. And that is huge. 

[Katerine459]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The difference is between what has been written and what hasn't. And that is huge. 

Oookay. You're either trolling, or you've never seen a piece of fanfiction in your life. Trust me, this is not fanfiction:

"If this happened instead of that, then this would probably happen. X character would feel this, and then do this. Then Y character would respond like this..."

Not only is this not fanfic, I can't possibly imagine GRRM objecting to this for any reason. Especially since it serves such a great purpose for the reader (causing the reader to delve more fully into an understanding of the character).

If it can't possibly be mistaken for... you know... an actual story, GRRM has absolutely no cause to object. And he doesn't. He objects to fanfic, which this is not.

[Dorian Martell's son]

53 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Oookay. You're either trolling, or you've never seen a piece of fanfiction in your life. Trust me, this is not fanfiction:

The mods seem to take a pretty hands off approach to this place, but using the T word is a capital offense. Beware. 

 

55 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

"If this happened instead of that, then this would probably happen. X character would feel this, and then do this. Then Y character would respond like this..."

Not only is this not fanfic, I can't possibly imagine GRRM objecting to this for any reason. Especially since it serves such a great purpose for the reader (causing the reader to delve more fully into an understanding of the character)

Except it is rewriting the story, which is fan fic

57 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

If it can't possibly be mistaken for... you know... an actual story, GRRM has absolutely no cause to object. And he doesn't. He objects to fanfic, which this is not.

Except it is. 

[Katerine459]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Except it is rewriting the story, which is fan fic

Except it is. 

According to you. And absolutely nobody else. Because your definition of fanfic makes absolutely no sense. Your definition of fanfic doesn't even fit 90% of the actual fanfic in existence.

A fanfic is a derivative story, told without the original author's explicit help. Key word: STORY.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, Katerine459 said:

According to you. And absolutely nobody else. Because your definition of fanfic makes absolutely no sense. Your definition of fanfic doesn't even fit 90% of the actual fanfic in existence.

It does, and when the author finds it acceptable, I will read it on occasion 

[Katerine459]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It does, and when the author finds it acceptable, I will read it on occasion 

"It does." "It doesn't." Care to explain? Because I have. I'm using actual arguments, and you're responding like a Monty Python skit.

I edited this in my previous post while you were writing, but once again, here is the actual definition of fanfiction:

6 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

A fanfic is a derivative story, told without the original author's explicit help. Key word: STORY.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

"It does." "It doesn't." Care to explain? Because I have. I'm using actual arguments, and you're responding like a Monty Python skit.

I edited this in my previous post while you were writing, but once again, here is the actual definition of fanfiction:

A rewrite, even in an outline format in the westeros forms is still a rewrite. Robb marching south to warn Ned as an Idea would require you to rewrite the story to engage that hypothetical. That is the whole point of these threads. What if the story was written differently? That is in fact fan fic  

[Katerine459]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

A rewrite, even in an outline format in the westeros forms is still a rewrite. Robb marching south to warn Ned as an Idea would require you to rewrite the story to engage that hypothetical. That is the whole point of these threads. What if the story was written differently? That is in fact fan fic  

Ok. Thank you for writing out your position.

There are several things wrong with this position: I've already covered how an outline is not a story, and also, a hypothetical is not a rewrite:

"If Dorian Martell's son hadn't written back to me, I would have gotten further in the game I'm playing." <-- there. According to what you're saying, I just rewrote the last hour of my life.

And, again, an outline is not a story:

"If Harry had been given to Snape as a baby, Snape might have liked him better." <-- this is a thought that might turn into a fanfic, but it's not a fanfic. Not yet. Maybe not ever. It depends on if I follow this up by writing a story based on this idea, or if I follow it up with an essay. An essay is an essay, not a fanfic. The format is precisely what matters.

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Ok. Thank you for writing out your position.

No thanks necessary Ma'am . I'm here to help  

13 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

There are several things wrong with this position: I've already covered how an outline is not a story, and also, a hypothetical is not a rewrite:

"If Dorian Martell's son hadn't written back to me, I would have gotten further in the game I'm playing." <-- there. According to what you're saying, I just rewrote the last hour of my life.

It is a rewrite, but it is really focusing on your life. My presence in it is and incidental, and your choice. so my opinion on fan fic does not mater here. You are correct though, this isn't fan fic because you are writing about your own life. Unlike the GRRM,  you seem to have no problem with fan fic so it will never be  an issue, no matter what scenario you create for yourself. 

18 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

And, again, an outline is not a story:

"If Harry had been given to Snape as a baby, Snape might have liked him better." <-- this is a thought that might turn into a fanfic, but it's not a fanfic. Not yet. Maybe not ever. It depends on if I follow this up by writing a story based on this idea, or if I follow it up with an essay. An essay is an essay, not a fanfic. The format is precisely what matters.

I would love to comment but I don't read kids books these days so I have no opinion on your hypothetical. Also, what does Mrs Rowling think about fan fc? 

[Katerine459]

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

27 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

There are several things wrong with this position: I've already covered how an outline is not a story, and also, a hypothetical is not a rewrite:

"If Dorian Martell's son hadn't written back to me, I would have gotten further in the game I'm playing." <-- there. According to what you're saying, I just rewrote the last hour of my life.

It is a rewrite, but it is really focusing on your life. My presence in it is and incidental, and your choice. so my opinion on fan fic does not mater here. You are correct though, this isn't fan fic because you are writing about your own life. Unlike the GRRM,  you seem to have no problem with fan fic so it will never be  an issue, no matter what scenario you create for yourself. 

...Wow. Ok. I think we've reached an impasse. If you believe that I can rewrite my life... or rewrite a story... just by writing a sentence in the format, "if this had happened, then that would have happened as a result," then I'm afraid one of us has very little understanding of reality. And for once, it's not me.

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

27 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

And, again, an outline is not a story:

"If Harry had been given to Snape as a baby, Snape might have liked him better." <-- this is a thought that might turn into a fanfic, but it's not a fanfic. Not yet. Maybe not ever. It depends on if I follow this up by writing a story based on this idea, or if I follow it up with an essay. An essay is an essay, not a fanfic. The format is precisely what matters.

I would love to comment but I don't read kids books these days so I have no opinion on your hypothetical. Also, what does Mrs Rowling think about fan fc? 

You don't have to be familiar with the books to understand the point I'm making. A thought that might turn into a fanfic... or it might turn into an essay... is not automatically the same thing as a fanfic.

And, to answer your tangential question, JKR loves it when people write fanfics. They encourage creativity, which is all to the good.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

...Wow. Ok. I think we've reached an impasse. If you believe that I can rewrite my life... or rewrite a story... just by writing a sentence in the format, "if this had happened, then that would have happened as a result," then I'm afraid one of us has very little understanding of reality. And for once, it's not me.

I bet you're glad you chose to quote me in a reply and draw me into conversation. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

You don't have to be familiar with the books to understand the point I'm making. A thought that might turn into a fanfic... or it might turn into an essay... is not automatically the same thing as a fanfic.

And, to answer your tangential question, JKR loves it when people write fanfics. They encourage creativity, which is all to the good.

And this is the crux of it all. While she as an artist has no issue with it, the author of the books that gave this forum its name does not like it at all. 
I can promise you I will never be caught dead on a potter forum much less lecturing folks about fan fic 

[Katerine459]

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I bet you're glad you chose to quote me in a reply and draw me into conversation. 

It's been... surreal.

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

18 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

You don't have to be familiar with the books to understand the point I'm making. A thought that might turn into a fanfic... or it might turn into an essay... is not automatically the same thing as a fanfic.

And, to answer your tangential question, JKR loves it when people write fanfics. They encourage creativity, which is all to the good.

And this is the crux of it all. While she as an artist has no issue with it, the author of the books that gave this forum its name does not like it at all. 
I can promise you I will never be caught dead on a potter forum much less lecturing folks about fan fic 

Uh... no. No, that's not the crux of it all. At no point did I ever contest the idea that GRRM doesn't like fanfics, or say that he's in the wrong to dislike fanfics, or say that we should ignore his preferences. I only contested your rather insane definition of "fanfic," which includes any sentence in this format: "If X had happened, then Y." A definition, btw, that GRRM would never agree with. Because nobody agrees with it.