SOLO: A Spoiler Story (contains spoilers)

[RumHam]

14 minutes ago, Vin said:

Eh, I think trying to marginalize the opposition and pretend that everything is dandy is delusional and won't fix the issues in this franchise . Something is obviously wrong since these movies are under performing and drawing bad opinions ,and someone is responsible for this "something wrong" , why can't it be Kennedy ? Person at the top gets the brunt of praise when things go right and most of the criticism when things go wrong . It's normal . Accountability and responsibility are a thing . 

One movie under-performed. And there were other factors like releasing it so soon after The Last Jedi and Infinity War. As for critical consensus Last Jedi still has 91% on rotten tomatoes and 85 on metacritic. 

If you're trying to avoid being painted as a trump supporter, your loose relationship with facts is not helping. 

[Vin]

The producer is divorced from the production ... cool 

I don't care that she's a woman , obviously you do . My point was that the person in charge gets the most responsibility, win or lose . 

I haven't mentioned what I didn't like because if you noticed , no one asked in response to my initial post what I thought, in fact the first response was a random "all right"  etc. Rant . I have many gripes with the movie ,just to list some off : Han's character is very inconsistent with his character from the original trilogy , he's not compelling at all , he's an incompetent moron who keeps asking random questions . And his development is atrocious,why would he give the fuel to the rebels ? And NOT join them ? The way he met chewie is awful ( he randomly speaks wookie now ? )and chewie eats people ? And the escape is so dumb . The way he got his name was moronic and somehow made his name uncool now . There's no real antagonist that's worth remembering . The  kessel run was supposed to be the climax but ended up being boring and killed the mystique of it and how is it that the entire galaxy including Rey knows that the falcon is the ship that did it if the only people who know about it are the people who were on board ?! I have so many more but these are just since you asked .

All you've done is throw insults and call names and I'm sad about that because I'm sure you're not a mean person but this hostility and readiness to muscle out people is just so toxic  .

[Jace, Extat]

Try harder.

[Vin]

18 minutes ago, RumHam said:

One movie under-performed. And there were other factors like releasing it so soon after The Last Jedi and Infinity War. As for critical consensus Last Jedi still has 91% on rotten tomatoes and 85 on metacritic. 

If you're trying to avoid being painted as a trump supporter, your loose relationship with facts is not helping. 

The last Jedi has a user score of 46 % on rotten tomatoes compared to 87% for the force awakens  . It took in 620 million compared to 930 million for force awakens .  If that's not a drop and a controversy then I don't know what is .so you see my relationship with facts is just fine but nice touch in trying to frame the issue .

I never said there weren't other factors but it seems silly to ignore an obvious downward trend 

[drawkcabi]

KK was responsible for hiring then firing Lord and Miller and the entire Solo debacle. Yeah Ron Howard made Solo a good enough movie, but maybe Lord and Miller could have made it special or maybe it would have been worse but there wouldn't have been all the extra production costs. KK decided to put the movie out Memorial Day weekend right after Avengers: Infinity War and Deadpool came out. If she held it until December maybe it would have done better in a less busy month and at a time when people have gotten used to going to SW movies lately, and people have a right to debate that and it was KK's call.

Rian Johnson gets as much hate if not more than KK, but KK put him on the job and she's given him a whole new trilogy.

J.J. Abrahams gets somewhat less hate but the grumbling is grwoing as people realize The Force Awakens wasn't as good if all it was, was a rehash of ANH with no plans to go forward, just Abraham's empty box, doing the same jerking around he did with Lost and Star Trek.

The three of them together are doing the job and getting the criticisms Lucas mostly alone got for the prequels and Snyder got for his DCEU fiilms. KK is also getting the misogynist scumbags jumping on the bandwagon just because they see a woman being criticized and are gleeful to lambast her too regardless of reasons, but the other fans are legitimate in their criticisms and she shouldn't be untouchable for what she's responsible for.

[Vin]

9 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

Try harder.

Such insight and discussion . Great counter points . Unbelievable wit and arguing skills . I am rendered speechless by your acute remarks and masterful diagnostic abilities. 

Lovely open-minded discussion. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

All I know is, when I watch SW related stuff on youtube, my suggested video feed is populated with all kinds of infuriating shit and a disproportional amount of this hate is aimed at Kathleen Kennedy.  It's getting to the point where I don't even care what she does or how good she is at it; I just hope she stays on board to spite these fucking morons.

Another recent example is Blade Runner 2049.  There was some discussion that the film was sexist. It's an interesting position and one that I happen to disagree with.  But there's a massive gulf between arguing someone is wrong and saying they're crazy wrong. Yet I see suggested videos with the title "SJW's attack Blade Runner something something." 

Whoever was the first to use the term "SJW" as a pejorative should be beaten with sticks.

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Vin said:

The last Jedi has a user score of 46 % on rotten tomatoes compared to 87% for the force awakens  . It took in 620 million compared to 930 million for force awakens .  If that's not a drop and a controversy then I don't know what is .so you see my relationship with facts is just fine but nice touch in trying to frame the issue .

Right, but there was a widely  documented campaign to influence that rating by a coalition of online trolls and alt-right morons. Two groups that seem to overlap quite a bit. 

4 minutes ago, Vin said:

I never said there were other factors but it seems silly to ignore an obvious downward trend .

You are correct. I am the guy who said there were other factors. I also think you need more than two data points to establish a meaningful trend. 

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

5 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

KK was responsible for hiring then firing Lord and Miller and the entire Solo debacle. Yeah Ron Howard made Solo a good enough movie, but maybe Lord and Miller could have made it special or maybe it would have been worse but there wouldn't have been all the extra production costs. KK decided to put the movie out Memorial Day weekend right after Avengers: Infinity War and Deadpool came out. If she held it until December maybe it would have done better in a less busy month and at a time when people have gotten used to going to SW movies lately, and people have a right to debate that and it was KK's call.

Rian Johnson gets as much hate if not more than KK, but KK put him on the job and she's given him a whole new trilogy.

J.J. Abrahams gets somewhat less hate but the grumbling is grwoing as people realize The Force Awakens wasn't as good if all it was, was a rehash of ANH with no plans to go forward, just Abraham's empty box, doing the same jerking around he did with Lost and Star Trek.

The three of them together are doing the job and getting the criticisms Lucas mostly alone got for the prequels and Snyder got for his DCEU fiilms. KK is also getting the misogynist scumbags jumping on the bandwagon just because they see a woman being criticized and are gleeful to lambast her too regardless of reasons, but the other fans are legitimate in their criticisms and she shouldn't be untouchable for what she's responsible for.

Maybe Lord and Miller were fired for good reason.  I have to believe that if they were let go that late in the process, something was up, especially considering Kennedy's experience and body of work, I'd be inclined to defer to her instead of second guessing her on the internet.

DP2 got moved up 2 weeks back in January.  It was originally supposed to open a week after Solo.  Black Panther was great.  Infinity War sucked.

[Slurktan]

37 minutes ago, Jace, The Sugarcube said:

"Why can't it be Kennedy"?

It can be. But when the first target of your impotent whining is a woman almost entirely divorced from the actual production of the films, echoing the deepest pits of nastiness on the internet, instead of assessing the issues in a logical and causality based argument then you've sold any and all credibility.

 

To be fair Kennedy is not "almost entirely divorced" from the production of the films, particularly Solo.  it was her for example that fired Miller and Lord because they weren't seeing eye to eye with her.  It was her who essentially replaced Garth Edwards on Rogue One because they weren't seeing eye to eye.   But continue.

[Slurktan]

2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but there was a widely  documented campaign to influence that rating by a coalition of online trolls and alt-right morons. Two groups that seem to overlap quite a bit. 

There is also the fact Rotten Tomatoes does not count half star reviews in it's algorithms.  T hus 3 1/2 star, 2 1/2 star, 1 1/2 star, and 1/2 star reviews are not counted towards the score.  Some enterprising reddit folks have counted all the actual reviews on there with the half stars and added to the counted reviews and it comes to I believe somewhere around 19%.  Not 49. 

[Vin]

5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but there was a widely  documented campaign to influence that rating by a coalition of online trolls and alt-right morons. Two groups that seem to overlap quite a bit. 

You are correct. I am the guy who said there were other factors. I also think you need more than two data points to establish a meaningful trend. 

 

I dunno , it seems like an excuse (the evil alt right made our movie suck !) To cheekily throw your trump remark back in your court ;it's like when trump said that Hillary won the popular vote because she got illegal voters and shit .  Both claims seem dumb to me buy I've not read up on either .

 

Well each of the four movies made less and less . Seems like a downward trend imo . 

PS: sorry for the poor structure of my posts , I'm on my phone and a bit too lazy to put in effort to make it look pretty

[drawkcabi]

Just now, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Maybe Lord and Miller were fired for good reason.  I have to believe that if they were let go that late in the process, something was up, especially considering Kennedy's experience and body of work, I'd be inclined to defer to her instead of second guessing her on the internet.

DP2 got moved up 2 weeks back in January.  It was originally supposed to open a week after Solo.  Black Panther was great.  Infinity War sucked.

Maybe they were. I think it's a legitimate debate, a debate Disney wanting to take risks with directors like Josh Trank and Lord and Miller and then getting cold feet and wanting to play it safe (Early enough in Trank's case after his meltdown, but late in the game with Lord and Miller) and if so then KK being in charge of it is also legitimately a target for criticism.

I've not seen Infinity War, I only see that it's on the verge of breaking $2 billion. Deadpool's schedule change aside, Solo's opening was still in a packed summer and only 5 months after a SW movie that left a bad taste in a lot of the fans' mouths if not the critics, and not much breathing room for more fans to get in the mood for a SW movie again and also in the past years December has become the usual time for A SW movie and is usually the big event of the season.

People are not going to get as excited about Mary Poppins, but I bet it's going to do a hell of a lot better in December than in the Summer regardless, but even if it had to share the month with Solo they'd both probably make out better.

[Vin]

15 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Maybe Lord and Miller were fired for good reason.  I have to believe that if they were let go that late in the process, something was up, especially considering Kennedy's experience and body of work, I'd be inclined to defer to her instead of second guessing her on the internet.

DP2 got moved up 2 weeks back in January.  It was originally supposed to open a week after Solo.  Black Panther was great.  Infinity War sucked.

Sure , that's entirely possible but that's my point, she made those calls and now she has to face the heat . If the movie was great then we'd be praising her for changing directors and saving the movie but that didn't happen , the movie stunk and it was her responsibility. I really don't see why the default position is to defend her . 

 

I actually liked infinity war . Didn't think it was amazing or anything but it was fun , on the other hand I thought black panther was meh ,liked the actor tho but what do I know ,my favorite marvel movie is antman lol 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

Maybe they were. I think it's a legitimate debate, a debate Disney wanting to take risks with directors like Josh Trank and Lord and Miller and then getting cold feet and wanting to play it safe (Early enough in Trank's case after his meltdown, but late in the game with Lord and Miller) and if so then KK being in charge of it is also legitimately a target for criticism.

I've not seen Infinity War, I only see that it's on the verge of breaking $2 billion. Deadpool's schedule change aside, Solo's opening was still in a packed summer and only 5 months after a SW movie that left a bad taste in a lot of the fans' mouths if not the critics, and not much breathing room for more fans to get in the mood for a SW movie again and also in the past years December has become the usual time for A SW movie and is usually the big event of the season.

People are not going to get as excited about Mary Poppins, but I bet it's going to do a hell of a lot better in December than in the Summer regardless, but even if it had to share the month with Solo they'd both probably make out better.

Very limited debate maybe.  The only information I have is the same as you and anyone else on these boards: the entertainment press.  Most of it rumor and some of it bullshit.  This is the first time L&M have ever helmed a film like this; Kennedy has been doing it for decades.  Maybe she gave them plenty of opportunities to right the ship and then decided to part ways when that didn't work.  I'm inclined to think she might have a point.

Also, the only internet commentary I've seen regarding L&M's departure has been entirely negative.  At what point does it stop being legitimate criticism and just becomes piling on?

1 minute ago, Vin said:

Sure , that's entirely possible but that's my point, she made those calls and now she has to face the heat . If the movie was great then we'd be praising her for changing directors and saving the movie but that didn't happen , the movie stunk and it was her responsibility. I really don't see why the default position is to defend her . 

1. I really liked the movie.

2. The hate for KK was raging long before Solo came out.

3. No criticism for Jon and Lawrence Kazan?  The wrote the thing after all.  From what I've read, L Kazdan was entirely supportive of her decision to sack Lord and Miller as they were taking excessive liberties with his script. 

So no, I don't agree.

[Slurktan]

6 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

1. I really liked the movie.

2. The hate for KK was raging long before Solo came out.

3. No criticism for Jon and Lawrence Kazan?  The wrote the thing after all.  From what I've read, L Kazdan was entirely supportive of her decision to sack Lord and Miller as they were taking excessive liberties with his script. 

So no, I don't agree.

1. Anecdotal evidence means lots!

2.  Sure, and not that I agree with it but a lot of it has come on from how she and Rian Johnson "defended" the Last Jedi during interviews after the fan "backlash" was happening.  There is a reason she isn't doing interviews for Solo like she did for Last Jedi.

3.  They wrote "the thing" and get about as much fault for Solo  as Lawrence does get credit for Empire.  Not much either way.  Writers do what they are told to stay employed in Hollywood.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

6 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

1. Anecdotal evidence means lots!

2.  Sure, and not that I agree with it but a lot of it has come on from how she and Rian Johnson "defended" the Last Jedi during interviews after the fan "backlash" was happening.  There is a reason she isn't doing interviews for Solo like she did for Last Jedi.

3.  They wrote "the thing" and get about as much fault for Solo  as Lawrence does get credit for Empire.  Not much either way.  Writers do what they are told to stay employed in Hollywood.

1. When I'm telling an anecsote about myself, yes it does.  I can't very well agree with "the movie stunk" if I liked it.  When I start telling you your opinion, then you'll have a point.

2. If that is clouding fans opinion of her vis a' vis SOLO, then it's not really legitimate criticism of the film, is it?

3. Lawrence Kazdan also has an executive producer credit on SOLO.  He's 69 years old and I suspect he's not having trouble keeping the pool heated.

[Darth Richard II]

If you think Kasdan doesn't have extreme influence at Lucasfilm, well, you're wrong. He's the one who actually got Lord & Miller fired.

And has been proven like, a billion times at this point, there was no significant TLJ backlash. I don't care how YOU PERSONALLY feel at this point, because, like above, it's all anecdotal anyway.

God, what else

The RT score bombing has been extensively looked into and talked about. As also mentioned, even if every single review on RT was legit, its still a teeny tiny drop of the number of people who saw the film, and I could bring up the Cinema score, but fuck it why bother.

 

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, TFA. That was a huge cultural event, of course it was going to make more.

[Darth Richard II]

43 minutes ago, Vin said:

Sure , that's entirely possible but that's my point, she made those calls and now she has to face the heat . If the movie was great then we'd be praising her for changing directors and saving the movie but that didn't happen , the movie stunk and it was her responsibility. I really don't see why the default position is to defend her . 

 

I actually liked infinity war . Didn't think it was amazing or anything but it was fun , on the other hand I thought black panther was meh ,liked the actor tho but what do I know ,my favorite marvel movie is antman lol 

A bunch of people here liked Solo, so, just staying it stunk stated as fact oh fuck it im going to bed fuck y'all