Claimants for Azor Ahai

[Hugorfonics]

So! If I'm reading this correctly there are two main characteristics in Azor Ahai reborn. One is being reborn amidst smoke and salt, and the other is killing Nissa Nissa reborn. 

Dany has an obvious  claim. Reborn amidst Drogos pyre (idk how much salt was there) and she killed Drogo with a pillow.

Stannis had a huge ceremony where he was reborn amidst smoke and salt and killed Renly with his shadow.

Victarion strangled his wife to death, and was reborn on the sea, or at least his arm.

Jon however, who's soon to be reborn, specifically did not kill Ygritte. Though it was probably his orders that got Ygritte shot.

Ramsay similarly gets the original Reek killed, whether he loved him or not is debatable, but hes reborn from the second Reek to Ramsay during Winterfells burning.

The third Reek as well has been reborn in Winterfell as Theon, but has yet to kill Nissa. Likewise Cat and Sandor have been reborn yet have still to kill Nissa. (Nissa could be Arya or Sansa for all three, the other Starks for Theon and Cat also, or Gregor for Sandor)

Then there is Tyrion who killed Shae with his chain, yet to my understanding has yet to be reborn. 

Thoughts? Any names I'm forgetting?

[Kandrax]

You forgot Hot Pie

And Theon's Nissa was his betrayal of Robb.

[chrisdaw]

The creation of a AA/Nissa Nissa/TPTWP and the other names for the same thing has not yet occurred. When it happens you'll read about it in the series first hand, and if GRRM does his job as well as he'd like then your head will explode as the realisation sets in.

That's the whole literary point of a central mystery like this is to bring it to fruition and blow the reader's mind. It isn't the point that people go looking for thin evidence of previous underwhelming events in the story to loosely tie it together.

AA is coming at the very end of the story and will be brought about by events that are yet to happen.

[Darth Sidious]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

So! If I'm reading this correctly there are two main characteristics in Azor Ahai reborn. One is being reborn amidst smoke and salt, and the other is killing Nissa Nissa reborn. 

Dany has an obvious  claim. Reborn amidst Drogos pyre (idk how much salt was there) and she killed Drogo with a pillow.

Stannis had a huge ceremony where he was reborn amidst smoke and salt and killed Renly with his shadow.

Victarion strangled his wife to death, and was reborn on the sea, or at least his arm.

Jon however, who's soon to be reborn, specifically did not kill Ygritte. Though it was probably his orders that got Ygritte shot.

Ramsay similarly gets the original Reek killed, whether he loved him or not is debatable, but hes reborn from the second Reek to Ramsay during Winterfells burning.

The third Reek as well has been reborn in Winterfell as Theon, but has yet to kill Nissa. Likewise Cat and Sandor have been reborn yet have still to kill Nissa. (Nissa could be Arya or Sansa for all three, the other Starks for Theon and Cat also, or Gregor for Sandor)

Then there is Tyrion who killed Shae with his chain, yet to my understanding has yet to be reborn. 

Thoughts? Any names I'm forgetting?

The prophecy has already been fulfilled.  Daenerys Targaryen mercy killed her brain-dead husband, her Nissa Nissa.  She "woke dragons from stone" and the timing fit in neatly with the red comet.  Thus proving that Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dany has an obvious  claim. Reborn amidst Drogos pyre (idk how much salt was there) and she killed Drogo with a pillow.

There is no literal AA reborn. Dany is the closest, where she kills her love to make flaming weapons 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

You forgot Hot Pie

And Theon's Nissa was his betrayal of Robb.

Lol, Hot Pie. I'm all ears.

Theons actions definitely long termed killed Robb, but it wasnt as direct as Jon's or Ramsay's Nissa. I think Robb is kind of a stretch

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The creation of a AA/Nissa Nissa/TPTWP and the other names for the same thing has not yet occurred. When it happens you'll read about it in the series first hand, and if GRRM does his job as well as he'd like then your head will explode as the realisation sets in.

We see Dany wake stone dragons fairly early in the series. And when Ser Patrick's star sigil turned red from his blood, may head almost did explode.

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

That's the whole literary point of a central mystery like this is to bring it to fruition and blow the reader's mind. It isn't the point that people go looking for thin evidence of previous underwhelming events in the story to loosely tie it together.

AA is coming at the very end of the story and will be brought about by events that are yet to happen.

Then what's the point of this website?

I think AA is multiple characters who through their journey, they will defeat the others (or something)

27 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

The prophecy has already been fulfilled.  Daenerys Targaryen mercy killed her brain-dead husband, her Nissa Nissa.  She "woke dragons from stone" and the timing fit in neatly with the red comet.  Thus proving that Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  

The red comet fits with Ramsay as well, it was shining brightly when he sacked Winterfell

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is no literal AA reborn. Dany is the closest, where she kills her love to make flaming weapons 

She's the only one who wields lightbringer but that can change

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She's the only one who wields lightbringer but that can change

you are missing the point. There is no lightbringer. AA is a myth told over thousands of years. nobody will do exactly what the AA legend says, but some will come close. Look at it this way, bran is following the last hero archetype, heading north to find the children to learn to fight the others with their magic. John is the prince that was promised archetype. From the line of Aerys and Rhaella 

 

[Megorova]

I think, that there will be three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon Snow. The Mother, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three heads of the dragon, like the Holy Trinity.

Birth of one of them was heralded by red comet, the Bleeding Star. The other one has awoken dragons from stone. And the third one will draw Lightbringer from fire. My guess, is that Lightbringer is Dawn sword of Daynes, and now it is buried in crypts under Winterfell. Jon had nightmares, in which he went to that place, because the sword was calling him there. So when Jon will actually return to Winterfell, and will go down into those crypts, then, same as in his dreams, the dead Starks will rise, they will turn into walking dead, so Jon will set them on fire, and that's when he will find Lightbringer/Dawn at Lyanna's tomb, and will draw it from fire.

Nissa's death was necessary for completing forging of Lightbringer. But if the sword is already forged, by original Azor Ahai, then there's no need to kill with it another Nissa Nissa.

[chrisdaw]

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Nissa's death was necessary for completing forging of Lightbringer. But if the sword is already forged, by original Azor Ahai, then there's no need to kill with it another Nissa Nissa.

So the whole drama of AA, the hook, the point of its creation, happened offscreen thousands of years ago to faceless characters.

A good read that'd be.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you are missing the point. There is no lightbringer. AA is a myth told over thousands of years. nobody will do exactly what the AA legend says, but some will come close. Look at it this way, bran is following the last hero archetype, heading north to find the children to learn to fight the others with their magic. John is the prince that was promised archetype. From the line of Aerys and Rhaella 

I know it's not a litteral story, Dany didn't think about forging a wepon when she killed Drogo. And of course she's Azor Ahai reborn, that's all the talk in Volantis.

But Stannis was born amidst smoke and salt and did kill his brother whom he told Davos he loved. As other characters have gone through similar paths.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that there will be three of them - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon Snow. The Mother, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three heads of the dragon, like the Holy Trinity.

Birth of one of them was heralded by red comet, the Bleeding Star. The other one has awoken dragons from stone. And the third one will draw Lightbringer from fire. My guess, is that Lightbringer is Dawn sword of Daynes, and now it is buried in crypts under Winterfell. Jon had nightmares, in which he went to that place, because the sword was calling him there. So when Jon will actually return to Winterfell, and will go down into those crypts, then, same as in his dreams, the dead Starks will rise, they will turn into walking dead, so Jon will set them on fire, and that's when he will find Lightbringer/Dawn at Lyanna's tomb, and will draw it from fire.

Nissa's death was necessary for completing forging of Lightbringer. But if the sword is already forged, by original Azor Ahai, then there's no need to kill with it another Nissa Nissa.

Idk that's a little too catholic for me, plus Rheagos dead. I like the part about Jon finding a sword under Winterfell, not sure if it's Dawn.

[LynnS]

I'll throw in some cracked pot out of the box thinking on this one.  Dany is the prince who is a woman, that was promised. She fills the conditions of the prophecy and was reborn during MMD's tent ritual.   She hatches dragons from stone and resurrects the great dragon, the man limned in flame that she sees in MMDs fire.   Drogon is the valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the head of a man, someone that Jaqen refers to as 'Him of Fire' when he swears to Arya by all the gods and 'even him of fire', newly awakened by Dany.  The Targ god Balerion reborn.

Dany sacrifices the life of her unborn son to resurrect the soul contained in the black egg, thus changing states with him. Ergo, he died long ago.  Jorah asks if Dany can wake the dead and the answer is yes; ultimately the meaning behind Targ obsession with transforming into a dragon or waking the dragon.

The story of AA is a story, a means for explaining something in heroic terms for something people really don't understand. We're expecting someone to show up with a magic sword and transform it into something powerful by literally plunging it into Nissa Nissa's heart.  AA is a figure out of history who transformed his sword by plunging it into the heart of a dragon.  We get that part of the story when AA slew a monster:

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

 

 This is the same description of Dany transformed by spiritual fire into a dragon:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

Dany is tempered by fire and reforged anew.  In reality, this is what Mel refers to as 'the cleansing fire'.  Dany is both AA, the Sword of Justice and Lightbringer, the one  who lights the path.  Drogon is Him of Fire, the singing 'dragon', Rhaegar resurrected, Balerion reborn.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I doubt someone is going to turn their sword into lightsaber by stabbing it into a loved one's heart, as cool as that would be.

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk that's a little too catholic for me

GRRM's parents were Catholics, and he attended Catholic school. He lived in a very religious environment.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/about-george/life-and-times/bayonne/

So it's possible that he did used his own version of Holy Trinity, as prophesied saviours, that will end Second Long Night.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

plus Rheagos dead

There's no any evidences of his death.

2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I doubt someone is going to turn their sword into lightsaber by stabbing it into a loved one's heart, as cool as that would be.

I also don't believe in it. The sword was already forged thousands years ago. So there's no need for new Azor Ahai to kill his/her loved one, to created another magic sword. He can use the same sword. And the oldest known sword of ASOIAF-world is Dawn of Daynes. Furthermore that sword was made from meteorite ore, and return of Azor Ahai was heralded by red comet the Bleeding Star. So could be that the meteorite, from which Dawn was forged, is a piece of the Bleeding Star.

If the Bleeding Star is a periodic comet, then could be, that it was passing near Planetos thousands years ago, and when piece of it fell on the planet's surface, that "falling star" was seen by first Dayne. And in the span of last 8,000 years, this same comet was several times returning to Planetos, including the latest time, on a verge of 298/299, when was born Rhaego, and hatched Dany's dragons. If the Bleeding Star is an omen of Long Night, then what could be the better weapon to fight against the Others, if not the sword forged from this very comet?

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If the Bleeding Star is a periodic comet, then could be, that it was passing near Planetos thousands years ago, and when piece of it fell on the planet's surface, that "falling star" was seen by first Dayne. And in the span of last 8,000 years, this same comet was several times returning to Planetos, including the latest time, on a verge of 298/299, when was born Rhaego, and hatched Dany's dragons. If the Bleeding Star is an omen of Long Night, then what could be the better weapon to fight against the Others, if not the sword forged from this very comet?

Just to expand on the catholic theme; specifically the sword was forged from the  heart of a fallen star.  Which has a slightly different connotation than 'falling star'.  Martin is referring to this verse:

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

We could ask if the sword is forged in the heart of a fallen Dayne, in the same sense that Dany has a fiery sword thrust into her soul or we could ask if the Dawn sword will be thrust into the heart of actual dragon. 

Some additional biblical references:

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm

[Azarial]

My suspicions are closest to what @Hugorfonics says. There are multiple people fulfilling various aspects in various ways, and they all come together somehow.

If there is one Azor Ahi reborn I think it's Dany (AKA one head of the metaphorical dragon, the warrior head) because she is the only one we see who pictures herself literally taking another's place as if she were them and is always starting or dreaming of battle, her Rheagar trident dream is what i'm referring to here, and I think she is the fire dragon and that as that dragon she, not her dragons, is a lightbringer figure, think cleansing fire. All her symbolism is dragon fire. And I think the blood magic she did to save Drogo will save Jon instead, as he also fits lightbringer symbolism and the flaming man wolf stuff she saw is the same as what Mel saw in relation to Jon. The horses throat was slit and Jon's throat was slit. I don't think the dragons are lightbringer, it's to obvious and if she's replacing Rheagar the sword (person) he forged when he killed his wife is Jon, the second head. The next horse she had killed for the funeral pyre had its face chopped in half, like Tyrion on the black water, and he's the third head.

I think Jon would be the Prince that was Promised and the whole it can be a girl thing is a red herring and a bit of a joke as Jon's character is following the typical princess arc where Dany is playing the warrior arc. Jon is of the right line, even if Aegon was passed over Rheagar wasn't and neither was Jon. People love to talk about the world book, and forget that if Aerys said Rheagar and Elia's children are disinherited that people in world would assume Visery's was next in line because they didn't know about Jon so stating in the book that he made Visery's his heir could simply be an assumption on the Maesters part due to their not knowing Jon existed. But it would still technically be Jon as he wasn't disinherited. And even if it did happen his blood is still that of that line. He would be a stone dragon aka frozen fire or an earth based dragon like the Childrens magic is earth based and his wolf looks like a tree, and the trees are linked to stone, as are the wolves and the crypts. The fire symbolism most seen around him is that of the hearth fire so fire contained in stone, the torch and the fiery hand. Torch bearers lead the way. Plus the Ghost of High Heart talked of the prince and she speaks the common tongue, so would not have gotten the gender wrong as she wouldn't have given the prophecy in Valyrian. (Maggi the frog was from Essos originally so her prophecy using Valyrian shouldn't be applied to the Ghost of high heart.)

Tyrion, who had his rebirth moment on the Blackwater when he was presumed dead and had that vision that was eerily similar to the  Varamyr prologue, is the third head (or part of the needed ruling trinity if you will) So we are told his wits, his mind are his weapon. He is the gargoyle, something not loved but that is their for protection all the same kind of like a wise owl.

I think Lightbringer is the realm, and Jon is the head that can unify the realm. He is always shown uniting groups of people, and his personal lightbringer symbol is the shield, there is a lot of talk of being a shield, using a shield, and protecting people in his arc. He says Winterfell is the Heart of the north and is planning to attack it to protect the nights watch from being attacked from the south, that is his Nissa Nissa since Robb's will essentially wed him to the north.

I get that Dany frees/unites people too but in Westerose she will be a foreign invader, she is a Targaryen but the North will only follow a Stark, and the Free folk didn't swear fealty, or loyalty to the realm, they pledged to be loyal to Jon, and Jon alone. She failed to meet with the leaders in Slavers bay and get to know their culture, and financial systems and gain allies and it went badly as a result. She should hopefully have learned from how those cultures rebelled that she should have gotten insider help/knowledge/alliances before up-heaving their culture and thus will do that in Westerose, and who is there for her to turn to other than Jon? The Martells will back faegon (at least initially), central Westerose is Lannister territory, the only trustworthy Ironborn are in the north with the rest plotting to steal her dragons, making Jon her only option, and he and Tyrion just happen to get along.

I really hate how people and I think these two negate each other, and that for one to succeed the other must fail and as a result insult the one they didn't pick as their favorite. And I think anyone who feels this way will be disappointed when it's shown that they need each other and that their strengths and weaknesses along with the other main characters all meld together. Dany can't grasp foreign cultures but is great and inspiring awe, great life ruling balance, not great at day to day ruling. Jon great at understanding foreign cultures and forming alliances not good at dealing with treachery and political games, great at day to day ruling (planning marriages, getting loans, listening to concerns, all that stuff Dany grumbled about and passed off to Hizdar the first chance she got), not great at large scale issues as he gets to focused on one aspect, sucks at life balance. Tyrion is great with political games and dealing with large scale issues with lots of moving parts, but not good at winning people over or inspiring loyalty (at least not without paying them to pretend to be loyal). They all have strengths and weaknesses that play off each other, none of them can do it alone.

Or think of the eggs, what do they represent in their placement? (forget who rides what dragon that doesn't matter), head=Tyrion, heart=Jon, passion(groin)=Dany (and yes they overlap they wouldn't be well rounded if they didn't, but their dominant traits fall this way. Fire is passion, fighting for a cause like freeing slaves is passion. Fighting to avenge your family is passion. Fighting to take back something that you believe is yours is passion. Striving to protect those you love (Arya) is heart, trying to protect those under your care (nights watch/realm) is heart, being willing to die to save others (sacrificing self and reputation by dishonoring yourself like drawing Bolton attention away from the nights watch to Jon alone) is heart. Using strategy and knowledge to succeed (Tyrions time as hand) is head, becoming informed of your opponents and using that to your advantage (like in slavers bay, when finding a way to free him, Jorah and Penny from slavery) is head. They each predominantly use a trait that was symbolized by the placement of the dragon eggs (as I said has nothing to do with riders, unless Danny riding Drogon forseshadows her uniting with Jon, who's color happens to be black. Or because what Dany seeks most is heart, home and family. That would put Jon on Green as what he seeks most is wisdom and knowledge, and Tyrion on white as he seeks passion and love. I don't see anyone other than Dany riding a dragon and don't think that is what the three heads thing means, in fact her believing that makes me sure that's not it, as characters are always wrong)

Three heads = dragon, wolf, lion or sword, shield, brain or King, Queen, Hand the labels don't matter so much as that lightbinger is the realm and it takes three people working together to wield it. As was hinted at by Westerose having three distinct regions, South--hot and fiery, Central Westerose--wet and lush, North--cold and hard with three distinct cultures, that just happen to be represented in these three characters.

And if they are all Azor Ahi reborn as a group, then Tyrion could wake dragons from stone by getting Dany to leave the stone pyramids of slavers bay and head to Westerose. Jon could do it by solving Dany's fertility issues. 

Bran is called Prince and has waking dragon symbolism in the chapter where he and Jon are talking via Direwolf telephone, where he touches Jon, and Jons mind flies to Ghost, then Bran through Summer sees the Winterfell dragon (AKA Jon) wake. But, he's the wrong bloodline so I'm not sure what to make of that other than it letting us know that these guys need to hook up with the last hero, Garth the green, and Drowned god crowd, etc. these three are the leaders, but there are still lots of other people who will play a big role.

 

 

[Megorova]

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Just to expand on the catholic theme; specifically the sword was forged from the  heart of a fallen star.  Which has a slightly different connotation than 'falling star'.  Martin is referring to this verse:

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

It's a reference to Lucifer, Devil, the fallen angel. In Latin it also means "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing" <- this is from Wikipedia.

Which is another clue, that Dawn sword of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, and that Jon is new owner of that sword, because Venus is his guardian planet.

I did calculations, when were born Jon and Dany, and it seems, that Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve of 282, and was born in late September or in October. So his sign is Libra, and his guardian planet is Venus.

Dany was born either in May or June, her sign is Gemini, and her guardian planet is Mercury. Both Libra and Gemini are air signs. And if Rhaego wasn't born a bit premature, then he would have also been an air sign - Aquarius. But instead he was born Capricorn (earth sign), same as Lyanna Stark.

[John Suburbs]

I would prefer there is no ancient heroes reborn. It's a little too tropey for me, and I suspect for Martin as well.

[The Commentator]

18 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

The prophecy has already been fulfilled.  Daenerys Targaryen mercy killed her brain-dead husband, her Nissa Nissa.  She "woke dragons from stone" and the timing fit in neatly with the red comet.  Thus proving that Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  

[Lord Lannister]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:59 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, Hot Pie. I'm all ears.

Salt and smoke of the kitchen, conceivably could be the illegitimate union of a Targaryen and his mother and was reborn to a new life in essence when he left King's Landing. Pretty much he's evidence that you can make a case for almost anyone given the vagueness and open endedness of this "prophecy."

In all seriousness though, you could make a case for Davos and being "reborn" at Storm's End and later at the Blackwater. Though I really think the story will happen as it will, and who AAR was won't be spelled out, and people will still be arguing over who it was even after the final novel is published. 

[LynnS]

On 5/25/2018 at 1:07 PM, Megorova said:

It's a reference to Lucifer, Devil, the fallen angel. In Latin it also means "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing" <- this is from Wikipedia.

Which is another clue, that Dawn sword of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, and that Jon is new owner of that sword, because Venus is his guardian planet.

I did calculations, when were born Jon and Dany, and it seems, that Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve of 282, and was born in late September or in October. So his sign is Libra, and his guardian planet is Venus.

Dany was born either in May or June, her sign is Gemini, and her guardian planet is Mercury. Both Libra and Gemini are air signs. And if Rhaego wasn't born a bit premature, then he would have also been an air sign - Aquarius. But instead he was born Capricorn (earth sign), same as Lyanna Stark.

Oy Vay!  It's one thing to speculate, it's another thing to throw in astrology as evidence of anything.