Screw the banks

[Jace, Extat]

@Rhom I love ya man. But I have gathered over the years that you are far removed from the workers plight. 

Like 60% of Americans don't have 500 bucks cash on hand at any given time. 

Like 70% of Americans have less than a grand in their retirement accounts.

At some point you need to stop blaming 'living beyond your means' when it's well over half the goddamn country who are suffering.

[S John]

8 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Funny thing is... when I bought my Jeep last year, it was more difficult paying outright than financing.  When negotiating price, the salesman said "Look, I'm already going to have to explain to my manager why I'm selling it this cheap."  I responded "Tell him the guy walked in with a check to pay in full."  He said, "Well that's actually worse for me, because if we were financing we'd be getting the interest too."

I haven't had a car loan in over a decade.  Its not because I do exceptionally well, but its because every month I set aside the amount of money that would otherwise be a car payment and I never buy brand new.  Seriously.  For most of us, our cars are the second biggest investment we own.  Why would you buy something that loses thousands in value the second you leave the store????  The problem for many people is not that they aren't wealthy, its that they try to live like they are.

Make a budget.  Spend less than you earn.  

I don't necessarily disagree but I think it's easier said than done for most people and it's not strictly from a lack of discipline.  A whole array of financial kicks to the nuts can strike at any time.  It's pretty easy to get caught flat-footed and all of the sudden need a new car right after you had a surgery or had to replace the HVAC on your house, etc, etc.  

One thing I've been doing lately is withdrawing cash at the beginning of every month for discretionary type spending.  For things like going out for a beer, getting a coffee (if I drank coffee, which I don't because it is a hideous beverage), a meal out at a restaurant, etc.  That way I have a set monthly limit and I can see how fast it goes.  The first month I did this, it was pretty eye opening and I would recommend anyone try it who has ever wondered what the hell happened to their bank account in a given month.  It is way too easy to use a debit or credit card and not think about it too much.  Plus its great to pay with cash at bars and restaurants, the servers get a cash tip and I can bust outta there whenever I feel like it.  

[Rhom]

22 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

@Rhom I love ya man. But I have gathered over the years that you are far removed from the workers plight. 

Like 60% of Americans don't have 500 bucks cash on hand at any given time. 

Like 70% of Americans have less than a grand in their retirement accounts.

At some point you need to stop blaming 'living beyond your means' when it's well over half the goddamn country who are suffering.

I can understand why you might think that.  However; in my own defense I will say that less than ten years ago, I was running my own office and paying myself less than $1,000/month.  My front desk staff was taking more home than I was.  I had debts of every kind imaginable.  I'll never forget the day when separating from my now ex wife when I walked into the rent controlled apartment complex wearing a suit and tie asking about an apartment, the look I got from the rental manager was priceless.  The only thing missing in the apartment they showed me was the chalk outline on the floor.    (I didn't wind up living there, but I still found a place I could afford.)  I started cleaning things up, my office started to grow, and I will readily admit that I am in a better place than most now.

22 minutes ago, S John said:

I don't necessarily disagree but I think it's easier said than done for most people and it's not strictly from a lack of discipline.  A whole array of financial kicks to the nuts can strike at any time.  It's pretty easy to get caught flat-footed and all of the sudden need a new car right after you had a surgery or had to replace the HVAC on your house, etc, etc.  

One thing I've been doing lately is withdrawing cash at the beginning of every month for discretionary type spending.  For things like going out for a beer, getting a coffee (if I drank coffee, which I don't because it is a hideous beverage), a meal out at a restaurant, etc.  That way I have a set monthly limit and I can see how fast it goes.  The first month I did this, it was pretty eye opening and I would recommend anyone try it who has ever wondered what the hell happened to their bank account in a given month.  It is way too easy to use a debit or credit card and not think about it too much.  Plus its great to pay with cash at bars and restaurants, the servers get a cash tip and I can bust outta there whenever I feel like it.  

I'm far from a Dave Ramsey fanatic.  I certainly use credit cards and now pay them off every month, but there was a time in my life where I carried well into 5 figures of credit card debt.  Our mortgage is not on a 15 year note like he advocates.  I don't keep cash laying around in envelopes for groceries, clothes, and entertainment etc.  I still have over $80k in student loans a decade and a half out of school and am in no hurry to pay them off.  I took a loan to open my own office.

But the man's principals are sound.  Especially for those who struggle.  Don't be a slave to the financial system.  Give every dollar a name at the beginning of the month.  Don't see the inside of a restaurant unless you're working there until you have your finances under control.  

His baby steps seem simplistic, but they work.  First, save up $1,000 emergency fund.  Second, list your debts smallest to largest and attack the smallest one aggressively.  Third, save up 3 to 6 months expenses.  From there it gets into saving for retirement, kids college, etc.

If you aren't familiar with him and his programs, its worth looking into.

[oberonus]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I'm self-employed so direct deposit isn't a thing.  Nearest credit union I could have an account at is about a forty minute drive.  I use this bank because it's all over my area.  To waive the monthky fee I need to maintain a balance of $1500 or more, which happens maybe two months of the year.  

You have piss poor ethics.  So at what level of the caste system am I allowed to buy a coffee on the go?  Just because you work in a predatory and shitty industry doesn't mean that their shitty policies are ok. 

You seem to have a shitty attitude and no have no personal responsibility. Go ahead and get that coffee on the go, but if you don't know how to balance your account it will cost you $35 if you ignore the 3 pieces of advice I gave in my post that you ignored (use a credit card instead of a debit card  and turning off debit card overdraft using bill pay instead of writing checks). Take responsibility for your actions don't blame others.

 

As far as credit union being 40 min away credit unions are all part of the co op and shared branch network. You can go to any credit union ATM to deposit/withdraw money, you can use mobile deposit for checks.

If you use your bank because it has locations all over the place guess what.. that's why you choose to pay the monthly service fee on the account then, so that you can go to any of those locations. Or you can find a place that is a bit further with less locations and not pay the fee.

Seems like you're just making excuses for your piss poor money management

 

 

[lessthanluke]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Funny thing is... when I bought my Jeep last year, it was more difficult paying outright than financing.  When negotiating price, the salesman said "Look, I'm already going to have to explain to my manager why I'm selling it this cheap."  I responded "Tell him the guy walked in with a check to pay in full."  He said, "Well that's actually worse for me, because if we were financing we'd be getting the interest too."

I haven't had a car loan in over a decade.  Its not because I do exceptionally well, but its because every month I set aside the amount of money that would otherwise be a car payment and I never buy brand new.  Seriously.  For most of us, our cars are the second biggest investment we own.  Why would you buy something that loses thousands in value the second you leave the store????  The problem for many people is not that they aren't wealthy, its that they try to live like they are.

Make a budget.  Spend less than you earn.  

Easier said than done. I had a car crash 2 years ago so I needed a car ASAP and had to get a loan/finance for it. If I hadn't then I would have lost my job and then who knows from that.

Of course I am sure some will say I should have had savings but that's not really a luxury a lot can afford.

[Rhom]

4 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Easier said than done. I had a car crash 2 years ago so I needed a car ASAP and had to get a loan/finance for it. If I hadn't then I would have lost my job and then who knows from that.

Of course I am sure some will say I should have had savings but that's not really a luxury a lot can afford.

Or insurance, yes.  That's what its there for.

And to be direct, if you can't afford the replacement coverage... the car is too expensive for your budget.

[oberonus]

6 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Easier said than done. I had a car crash 2 years ago so I needed a car ASAP and had to get a loan/finance for it. If I hadn't then I would have lost my job and then who knows from that.

Of course I am sure some will say I should have had savings but that's not really a luxury a lot can afford.

Nothing wrong with financing a car. Just don't go overboard if money a month is tight and make sure you get GAP coverage if you aren't doing a large down payment

[lessthanluke]

8 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Or insurance, yes.  That's what its there for.

And to be direct, if you can't afford the replacement coverage... the car is too expensive for your budget.

My car was worth fuck all. Insurance gave me nothing.

I have no idea what your second sentence means. Replacement coverage? I owned the first car. You seem to have missed the point entirely that sometimes people are forced into situations out of their control.

[Rhom]

1 minute ago, lessthanluke said:

My car was worth fuck all. Insurance gave me nothing.

I have no idea what your second sentence means. 

Perhaps its different in the states than on your side of the pond.  Over here, most states have a legally mandated minimum level of coverage.  Basically, you have enough insurance to take care of someone else if you injure them in a wreck; but your insurance pays nothing for the damage to your car.  Increasing levels of coverage are more expensive, so many drivers do not carry enough insurance to replace/repair their car.  If you have a loan, typically the bank will require you to carry enough coverage to protect their investment.

That's what I meant by the second sentence.  If someone can't afford the insurance on their car, they are driving too much car.

[Jace, Extat]

Rhom buddy, your bourgeoisie is showing.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I worked on the corporate side at Wells Fargo for 10 months, and I’ve got to say, if you think politics is corrupt (it is, I worked for elected officials for years and saw some crazy stuff), banking takes it to a whole other level. Here are some highlights:

My boss was a disbarred lawyer, and she constantly encouraged the work force to cut corners. She specifically ordered me to do illegal activities while I was working on mortgages going through litigation.

Most of their low level workers on the corporate side are hired through temp agencies, and they do this specifically so they can deny them benefits and let people go without repercussion. If you’re a young woman, don’t you even dare think about getting pregnant. You will be let go by the time you’re at the sixth month mark.

They rarely promote the most talented people. This is a corporation which seems to encourage failing your way to the top.

And lastly and most importantly, their systems don’t line up, so they’re calculating literally all of their mortgages incorrectly. After about eight months I figured this out and immediately brought it up to my manager. It was escalated to a VP and they instructed me to write a report on my findings. It was about 10 pages long with a bunch of screenshots outlining how the mistakes were being made. A few weeks later I followed up on it and was told not to inquire about the issue again. I quit about a month later, and called a buddy a year or so later who still worked there to see if they ever corrected it. Nope! They buried my findings. I’m guessing it’s because they would have lost money if they did it correctly.

Long story short, while WF isn’t a bad bank to use for everyday things, never use it to a buy a house.

[Tears of Lys]

"Whether you're rich or whether you're poor, it's nice to have money."

My late, great mom-in-law said tongue-in-cheek.

[DanteGabriel]

@Tywin et al. Jesus God that explains a lot. When my wife and I tried for our first home loan, we went to Wells Fargo and a particular loan officer because of a recommendation from my workplace.

It was a fucking shitshow. I could not understand how a major corporation could be so bad at its most basic and quotidian functions.

I should have known when I mentioned the loan officer's name to our real estate agent, and she recognized his name. I asked what she knew of him, and she said, "He's a great salesman." 

Maybe it's lucky my employer went belly up at that time and I had to back out of the sale. We lost some money, but that's probably better than being chained to those incompetent shitheels for decades. We're a thousand times happier with our credit union home loan.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

34 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I worked on the corporate side at Wells Fargo for 10 months, and I’ve got to say, if you think politics is corrupt (it is, I worked for elected officials for years and saw some crazy stuff), banking takes it to a whole other level. Here are some highlights:

My boss was a disbarred lawyer, and she constantly encouraged the work force to cut corners. She specifically ordered me to do illegal activities while I was working on mortgages going through litigation.

Most of their low level workers on the corporate side are hired through temp agencies, and they do this specifically so they can deny them benefits and let people go without repercussion. If you’re a young woman, don’t you even dare think about getting pregnant. You will be let go by the time you’re at the sixth month mark.

They rarely promote the most talented people. This is a corporation which seems to encourage failing your way to the top.

And lastly and most importantly, their systems don’t line up, so they’re calculating literally all of their mortgages incorrectly. After about eight months I figured this out and immediately brought it up to my manager. It was escalated to a VP and they instructed me to write a report on my findings. It was about 10 pages long with a bunch of screenshots outlining how the mistakes were being made. A few weeks later I followed up on it and was told not to inquire about the issue again. I quit about a month later, and called a buddy a year or so later who still worked there to see if they ever corrected it. Nope! They buried my findings. I’m guessing it’s because they would have lost money if they did it correctly.

Long story short, while WF isn’t a bad bank to use for everyday things, never use it to a buy a house.

That's interesting about calculating mortgages wrong.  Can I ask how long ago it was?  In my current job with them, we sell mortgages to other investors and they have an outside due diligence firm review every loan and make sure it is completely in compliance and has been serviced properly. 98% of them usually are. (lien position followed by various compliance issues (high cost, missing disclosures, other missing/deficient items) are the main reasons the 2% don't pass)

I tried to get a refi when I was temping with WF, and 5 months later, it still wasn't done, I finally went to another lender, but a week later was let go.  I waited too long in my attempt to be loyal.  I filed a complaint, but it was dismissed because I withdrew my application.  That I found weird.

Full disclosure, I worked for WF for 6 years in Corporate Trust on MBS (prior to the crash), temped twice for a total of 19 months, and am just about to hit my 2nd anniversary in WF Capital Markets.

The only thing I have ever felt was really shady were CDOs, and I was right.

[maarsen]

16 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

My bank (TD bank) treats deposits I make on a Saturday, during hours they are open, as if it happened on a Monday. They have no problem debiting the account for purchases I make with my card regardless of the day or whether or not they are open.  

Then there's the algorithm they use for overdrafts which let's small purchases 'pend' for 3-5 days in case a larger one comes along that would push the acct into the red, in which case they process them all immediately to get multiple overdrafts instead of just one.  

Then there are the other banks that charge you $5-8 to cash a check drawn on that bank for non-account holders.

 

Just a bunch of predatory regressive shit that mostly affects people who are already stuggling.  The Saturday stuff really chaps my ass because most people get paid on Fridays, which banks goddamn well know and they just hose you on it. Not surprised that an industry that gets so many market protections preys on the small consumer.  

Fuck these fucking fucks.

Larry, TD Bank is a Canadian bank. I guess you get to blame Canada for your banking issues. One tiny little bright point of light is that being a Canadian bank, when Trump's 'policies' cause a 2008 style financial collapse, Canadian banks will be in better shape than American ones. 

[ThinkerX]

My approach is similar to Rhom's. 

Bought land and built a house on it mostly out of pocket ($9000 construction loan) - from the proceeds of running pizza in rectangles.  Five year project that stretched to almost seven years.  My income during that period rarely topped $1200 a month (roughly 1995 - 2001).  Had to pay child support, got hit with some expensive vehicle repairs.  At the time, I was living in a trailer I owned outright, just space rent and utilities, about 1/3rd the cost of renting a pad.  That helped.  Paycheck went towards the basics to keeping me alive: EVERYTHING else went for the house.  Did most of the work myself, a legacy of growing up on an Alaskan homestead.  Then, along about 2002, the big bills for the house were all settled, and I was living dang near rent free apart from property taxes (not bad) and utilities (also not bad because I designed the house to be energy efficient).

Back then, I regarded credit cards as an evil scam to keep poor people indebted - I watched far too many people dig gargantuan financial graves for themselves with those little plastic shovels. 

These days, because of work (USPS contractor who drives for a living) and internet buying, I have to have credit cards, but I restrict their use and pay cash whenever possible.

 

Also because of work, for the first time ever in my life, I bought a (newer) vehicle on the payment plan.  Doing so irked me (and still does), but the cost of that vehicle is factored into the contract.  Paying it off is on the agenda.  In the meantime, I get to factor depreciation into the tax end of things.

 

Never was a fan of buying things on the installment plan if any other option existed, because what with the interest, you usually end up paying far, far more for the whatever it is.  Apart from the last vehicle (again, budgeted into the contract), when I do have to make payments, I send in extra - double if I can manage it, just to wipe out the interest. 

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, oberonus said:

All banks and crediy unions have to give you the option if you want to allow debit card overdraft to happen. Opt out of it and you won't have as much of an overdraft issue that you are having. This won't stop you from overdrafting with checks but it will prevent the issue of someone holding checks for a few weeks, you making debit card purchases,  and then overdrafting on those purchase when they finally decide to cash the checks. Or use cashier checks or use bill pay (the equivalent of a cashier's check) to avoid your account going negative.

Stop using your debit card for purchases if you have a habit of overdrafting your account. Use a credit card instead. You won't get over drafts that way and even if you aren't able to pay it off in full if you're a habitual overdrafter, the interest you pay on your credit card will be less than your overdraft fees.

I work in banking for 9 years and most people who complain about Bank fees/overdrafts have no one to blame but themselves. "Oh woe is me I'm getting hit with OD fee after OD it's not fair waaaaaa" . You want to know why you're getting hit with fees? Because you have piss poor money management skills that's why. I see people who say they're broke and can't afford these  fees. when I look at their accounts they're just going to Starbucks or some other waste of money blowing their cash on unnecessary stuff.

Congratulations on managing to spew out a truly impressive load of condescending bullshit.

Banks purposefully structure your transactions to maximize overdraft fees.

That literally took me 5 seconds of Googling to find.

It's cute that you think someone who gets an overdraft fee from using their debit card hasn't already thought about using a credit card instead. Protip: people in this situation are either 1) already maxed on out their credit card, or 2) are too poor to have a credit card. But thanks for this piece of truly worthless advice for poor people.

Here's how it actually works: I'm a low-income worker. I have $100 left in my bank account, and since I'm low-income, I've opted-in to overdraft protection because I know how a bounced check can end up with the electricity being turned off for a week. So, it's Friday and I don't get paid until next Friday. I need to put $25 in gas into my car to get back and forth to work for the next week. I need to buy $50 worth of groceries so my family can eat for the next week, and I also know that there is a $115 electric bill due on Tuesday. So, knowing that I need to get to work so I won't lose my job, knowing that my kids need to, you know, eat, and knowing that not having electricity for 3 days will be a Bad Thing, I decide to use my debit card to purchase gas and groceries on Friday, and to write a check to mail to the electric company on Friday. Yes, I'll get hit with a $35 dollar fee for the check, but at least the electricity will stay on. 

But the bank decides they're going to label my debit card transactions as "pending" for several days. The electric company gets my check on Monday or Tuesday and deposits it in their bank. Then their bank sends the check to my bank on Thursday. Then my bank decides, let's process the check first, and then the other 2 transactions, even though the other 2 have been in pending status for almost a week. So now I've incurred $105 in overdraft fees, and I'm $195 dollars in the hole, instead of incurring $35 in overdraft fees and being only $125 in the hole.

That's the type of fucked up system that deliberately and cynically keeps people poor. And the supreme irony is that it's more lucrative to do that than it is for banks to loan out money at interest from all those "responsible" people who have savings. 

Someone who has $1000 in savings will earn the bank $100 in interest in a year if it's loaned out at a 10% interest rate. Meanwhile, the bank just made $105 off of my hypothetical self in just a week. It's a crooked system and it needs to be brought low.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

That's interesting about calculating mortgages wrong.  Can I ask how long ago it was?  In my current job with them, we sell mortgages to other investors and they have an outside due diligence firm review every loan and make sure it is completely in compliance and has been serviced properly. 98% of them usually are. (lien position followed by various compliance issues (high cost, missing disclosures, other missing/deficient items) are the main reasons the 2% don't pass)

I tried to get a refi when I was temping with WF, and 5 months later, it still wasn't done, I finally went to another lender, but a week later was let go.  I waited too long in my attempt to be loyal.  I filed a complaint, but it was dismissed because I withdrew my application.  That I found weird.

Full disclosure, I worked for WF for 6 years in Corporate Trust on MBS (prior to the crash), temped twice for a total of 19 months, and am just about to hit my 2nd anniversary in WF Capital Markets.

The only thing I have ever felt was really shady were CDOs, and I was right.

I should clarify on the front end, I meant to say calculating mortgage modifications. I quit that job 4 years ago around this time of year and I called my buddy almost exactly a year later, so roughly three years ago. Basically we modified the mortgages by taking information from three different systems and complied and put it in one new system and that's how we processed the modifications. All the total's lined up, it was extremely uncommon for them to be off so no one was doing deeper dives IMO.

I was bored one day and was checking the details of the files I was working and noticed that the capped amounts differed in each of the three systems. It happened on damn near every account I worked. Normally it was very small, sometimes pennies, so I just chalked it up to a rounding error. Then I noticed one that was off by, iirc, like $50. I brought it up to a coworker who was more familiar with the terminology and he calculated that the difference was probably less than a dollar per payment, so I just shrugged it off. But then one day I found one that was off by over $20,000 on a loan that was only work around $200,000. I didn't bother to do the math, but my guess is that had a significant impact on their interest rates and how quickly they could get to paying off the principal amount. That's when I escalated it to my boss. Like I said before, I quit not too long after this all went down, so I didn't get to see that many more files, but I did see others that were off by large amounts. What really perplexed me is that my bosses didn't notify the team to check for this. That would have been the first thing I would have done until it was resolved. But all but one of my managers were idiots so it's not surprising that they botched it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Triskele said:

If you have student loan debt there is no way out.  You cannot declare bankruptcy and have the debt forgiven like you can with credit cards.  It's not a small difference.  It's a chasm of a difference.  

You can leave the country. My best friend's uncle (young uncle though) did that. He racked up a boat load of bills getting his PhD and them moved to Italy to teach. He says he dodged all of his debt. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Ha, I have heard of that option.  That sure seems extreme though.  

ETA:  But seriously though, what is even the endgame with that option?  Do you take a major risk if you ever return to the US?  

He said you have to wait seven years and then your debt is "forgiven" for lack of a better term. Idk if that's accurate, but it's what I was told.