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What do we really know about Ashara Dayne?


norwaywolf123

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There’s really no information to give concrete answers. I used to think the Daynes were red herrings but now I think they might have a role in the upcoming books and  I have no idea what it is.

Also, has anyone thought maybe she killed herself because she knew of a secret?

was she crazy?

were Elia and Ashara secret lovers?

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The thing is when jon parentage became a almost certain thing, we forgot for a while the Ned do cat wrong... But all this Ashara thing start to looms all over, i'm not so sure that ned didn't have a bastard of his own during the process... let's pretend it happen like that, Why didn't he marry Ashara after the thing they have at harrenhal, did she  kill herself because the baby died, or because ned now had a wife, or both! DIED of heartbrake, who pushed her to death. My Money is on NED

Ned boy why you didn't bring lord Dustin bonés to the north men...

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We really don't know an awful lot about Ashara because everything we have heard has come from other characters observing her from afar. With Catelyn, there doesn't seem to even be any evidence that she even met the woman. She knew what she looked but that came from chattering servants.

Even Barristan I would take all he says with a pinch of salt. He probably saw Ashara more regularly than anyone else but he doesn't seem to have had any meaningful relationship with her. 

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15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We don't know when the dishonoring took place or how it took place. Does Ser Barristan mean the actual affair, or the affair's disclosure? Does the man who has the affair expose their relationship for some reason? Does he publicly reject her? We don't know any of this. Rather it speaks to Selmy's regret for never having declared his love for Ashara, and for keeping to his vows.

Could Jaime (assuming that Ashara was interested in him) leaving for the Kingsguard be seen as him dishonoring Ashara? If it was teh case then Barristan would have even more reason to dislike Jaime (the Kinglayer) Lannister.

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5 hours ago, Faera said:

We really don't know an awful lot about Ashara because everything we have heard has come from other characters observing her from afar. With Catelyn, there doesn't seem to even be any evidence that she even met the woman. She knew what she looked but that came from chattering servants.

Even Barristan I would take all he says with a pinch of salt. He probably saw Ashara more regularly than anyone else but he doesn't seem to have had any meaningful relationship with her. 

I made a quick search and found this.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/93674-why-wasnt-catelyn-and-tullys-at-the-great-tourney-of-harrenhal/ (old tread)

It says that Catelyn was not present at the Harrenhal tourney. Thus we know that Catelynn did not see Ashara at Harrenhal, since Catelynn was not present. Maybe Catelynn never saw Ashara at all?

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14 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always figured the Daynes were just one big red herring meant to detract the readers away from R+L=J.

The problem there is, I don't think GRRM intended to obfuscate R+L=J at all. I don't think he meant it as a "twist" at all. It's one of the reasons I don't buy the "R+L=J is too obvious and thus not true" argument: it being obvious would only be a negative if GRRM had intended to surprise us with it. I don't think he did.

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1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Could Jaime (assuming that Ashara was interested in him) leaving for the Kingsguard be seen as him dishonoring Ashara? If it was teh case then Barristan would have even more reason to dislike Jaime (the Kinglayer) Lannister.

If we go on theories with no evidence we can make most things possible. Fifteen year old Jaime was at Harrenhal, for all we know of, part of one day and then sent off to King's Landing. We have no evidence of any relationship between Ashara and him, but we have Jaime's declaration that he has always been faithful to Cersei. So, making up a story line of Ashara falling in love with him from afar (even his tryst with Cersei in King's Landing occurs at a time when we expect Ashara was on Dragonstone with Elia) without evidence of even an introduction between the two stretches things quite a bit.

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On 5/25/2018 at 7:09 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Do we know how old Ashara was? When she was born?

She is of an age with Ned. Of the same generation.

Why were Ashara at Aerys court?

Perhaps she followed her brother to King's Landing.  A young person would find Starfall boring and seek out the excitement of the big city.  Good looks and having a brother in the King's service can open doors.  

Why did Ashara become one of Elia's ladies in waiting?

What else would a high born young lady do at the King's court?  She had to occupy her time and it is a way of serving her Queen.

Do we know anything about Ashara's relationship with different members of the court? People like the Royal Family, the Kingsguard, Lannisters. (I wonder what Ashara and Arthur though about the Lannisters, especially Tywin, Jaime and Cersei. As well as their relationship with the Lannisters.)

Tywin was loyal to Aerys and the Daynes had no reason to dislike him, except perhaps for what he did to the Tarbecks.  Possible there was friction between Ashara and Cersei, two lovely girls of the same age can get quite competitive for the attention of the men of the court.  

Which characters have mentioned Ashara in ASOIAF book series?

Many have mentioned her but only a few living have actually known her.  So let's go with Barristan and Ned.  The rest were talking from second hand knowledge.  

At the Harrenhal do we know for certain that she was dishonored?

Not really.  If she had sex with a man it was consensual.  

Even if Ashara was romantic with someone at Harrenhall does this need to result in sex?

Not really but I think it led to sex later on.  The seduction could have taken place at the tourney but the sex happened much later.  

Could Ashara being dishonored mean that she was violated?

It could mean that, but I find it hard to believe that anybody could have raped her and gotten away with it, unless it was Prince Rhaegar, Oberyn Martell, and King Aerys II who did it.  An equal chance, it was Oberyn.  Being from the family of Dorne's governing family, the red viper could get away with it.  

Could it be that Ashara did not have sex at Harrenhal?

 

Who could have fathered her potential child?

Brandon Stark and Ned Stark.

How did Barristan Selmy hear or find out that Ashara had reportedly given birth to a stillborn girl?

Rumors.  It was a scandal.  Barristan would keep an ear open for news of this lady. 

How does Westerosi society and nobillity know for certain that Ashara is dead and that she commited suicide?

Of course they do not know for certain, and neither do we.

 

Edit:

Just post information related to Ashara. Let's build up a thread that concern itself with setting the record straight.

 

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This may Have mentioned up thread but maybe the dishonor in Barry’s mind was her not being crowned the queen of love and beauty. She was slighted. Maybe that’s what Barry meant when he said she was dishonored  so she turned to the one person that she felt she was the most beutiful. I know it is a big stretch.

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19 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If we go on theories with no evidence we can make most things possible. Fifteen year old Jaime was at Harrenhal, for all we know of, part of one day and then sent off to King's Landing. We have no evidence of any relationship between Ashara and him, but we have Jaime's declaration that he has always been faithful to Cersei. So, making up a story line of Ashara falling in love with him from afar (even his tryst with Cersei in King's Landing occurs at a time when we expect Ashara was on Dragonstone with Elia) without evidence of even an introduction between the two stretches things quite a bit.

Seems sound.

 

What can be arguments for and against the motion? Proposition is "could Jaime have been the one who dishonored Ashara".

- What can dishonoring mean?

- Is there any text evidence of the proposition? If so what and where.

Pros:

- Ashara's brother knighted Jaime, maybe Ashara and/or her family feels that Jaime owes them something

- Jaime was infatuated with Ashara's brother Arthur, maybe this could infect/spread from Arthur to Ashara?

- Jaime left Ashara at Harrenhal when he took his kingsguard vows and moved to King's landing. Perhaps this could have made her sad if she was interested in him?

-Barristan claims to have loved Ashara, he also despises Jaime. If Jaime somehow dishonored Ashara he might get more reason to dislike Jaime.

- Perhaps it could be a one way relationship? Ashara loved Jaime but Jaime does not love Ashara back or is oblivious.

Cons:

- Little to no text evidence (major reason against the motion)

Jaime might have liked to bring it up to Eddard if he though it would hurt Eddard. Same goes for Cersei if she knew. That counts against the proposition.

- Barristan had enough reason to dislike Jaime as Jaime betrayed his kingsguard oath. Something that deeply offended and shocked Barristan.

- Jaime tells Catelyn that he has only been with one woman, and that woman is Cersei. Thus he claimes to atleast only had sex with one woman. 

 

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1 hour ago, Impbread said:

This may Have mentioned up thread but maybe the dishonor in Barry’s mind was her not being crowned the queen of love and beauty. She was slighted. Maybe that’s what Barry meant when he said she was dishonored  so she turned to the one person that she felt she was the most beutiful. I know it is a big stretch.

Possible

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8 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The problem there is, I don't think GRRM intended to obfuscate R+L=J at all. I don't think he meant it as a "twist" at all. It's one of the reasons I don't buy the "R+L=J is too obvious and thus not true" argument: it being obvious would only be a negative if GRRM had intended to surprise us with it. I don't think he did.

Well even if the "hidden prince" is about as cliche as fantasy tropes get, Martin did seem to bury the clues where they weren't obvious to most on the first read through. House Dayne's involvement, the whispers of Ned and Ashara at Harrenhall, Ned Dayne's naming and insistence he had a connection to Jon, and even the legendary sword awaiting it's rightful claimant, all seem to point to an easy explanation for Jon's ancestry on the surface. WIth the exception of Darkstar almost any mention or involvement of House Dayne ties back to Jon in some form or another.

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Quoting Barry, a man dishonoured Ashara at Harrenhall. I reckon he's a good source, so that it can be taken for granted. He says to himself a man did it, as if implying a passive behaviour in Ashara. 

To me, a material question is who could be the man who dishonoured Ashara and got away with it.

There are stories on how slights were dealt with in that same tourney, and we know what happened when Rhaegar took Lyanna away. Those kind of things were not easily forgiven. She was no tavern wench, she was Arthur Dayne's sister, Elia Martell's lady in waiting, Barry's crush, and it seems Ned's too. There are plenty of candidates for punishing the man who did it, but eventually no one showed up. Who could he be?

I think the shortlist is restricted to Aerys, Rhaegar and Oberyn. And I can find good reasons for all but discard two of them.

Any else?

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9 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I read the texts everybody thinks that was ABE who dishonored Ashara Dayne .And by ABE I mean anybody but Eddard . My money is on Eddard . Please remember that Eddard , Gorrell and Edric Dayne all say that Ashara Dayne is not Jon's mother .

Who is ABE?

 

Also bolded seems to say that you think it was not Eddard who dishonored Ashara, but also that it was Eddard. Confusing.

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