norwaywolf123 Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Do we know how old Ashara was? When she was born? Why were Ashara at Aerys court? Why did Ashara become one of Elia's ladies in waiting? Do we know anything about Ashara's relationship with different members of the court? People like the Royal Family, the Kingsguard, Lannisters. (I wonder what Ashara and Arthur though about the Lannisters, especially Tywin, Jaime and Cersei. As well as their relationship with the Lannisters.) Which characters have mentioned Ashara in ASOIAF book series? At the Harrenhal do we know for certain that she was dishonored? Even if Ashara was romantic with someone at Harrenhall does this need to result in sex? Could Ashara being dishonored mean that she was violated? Could it be that Ashara did not have sex at Harrenhal? Who could have fathered her potential child? How did Barristan Selmy hear or find out that Ashara had reportedly given birth to a stillborn girl? How does Westerosi society and nobillity know for certain that Ashara is dead and that she commited suicide? Edit: Just post information related to Ashara. Let's build up a thread that concern itself with setting the record straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Catelyn, Cersei, Edric Dayne, Harwin, and Barristan Selmy are among those who have mentioned Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 To most, she was a tall dark stranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Do we know how old Ashara was When she was born? no days old? 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Why were Ashara at Aerys court? As a Elia’s companion. 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Why did Ashara become one of Elia's ladies in waiting? The health insurance benefits 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Do we know anything about Ashara's relationship with different members of the court? People like the Royal Family, the Kingsguard, Lannisters. (I wonder what Ashara and Arthur though about the Lannisters, especially Tywin, Jaime and Cersei. As well as their relationship with the Lannisters.) 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Which characters have mentioned Ashara in ASOIAF book series? Cat, Cat, Cersei, Cat, Ned Dayne, Stark Guardsman, Barry 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: At the Harrenhal do we know for certain that she was dishonored? No, just that Barry thinks she was... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Even if Ashara was romantic with someone at Harrenhall does this need to result in sex? No, but being pregnant does need require sex... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Could Ashara being dishonored mean that she was violated? It could... or not... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Could it be that Ashara did not have sex at Harrenhal? Of course, but if she was pregnant she probably had sex at some point... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Who could have fathered her potential child? Pretty much anyone but Barry... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: How did Barristan Selmy hear or find out that Ashara had reportedly given birth to a stillborn girl? Dark wings dark words? Or maybe the good old fashion rumor mill... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: How does Westerosi society and nobillity know for certain that Ashara is dead and that she commited suicide? They clearly do not know for certain... 3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: Edit: Just post information related to Ashara. Let's build up a thread that concern itself with setting the record straight. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=ashara&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=affc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 As @LiveFirstDieLater shows in his/her last response the search function over at A Search of Ice and Fire is a wonderful thing. I would only add that it is a good thing to also search the archives of Martin's remarks here in the Citadel. In the section of the Citadel called So Spake Martin one can find out that Ashara's body was never found after her reported suicide. We also know from this resource a range for Ashara's age - 30 to 39 in 299-300 AC. Have fun looking through this treasure trove of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: no days old? You misrepresented me by removing the question mark between the sentences. Still funny though. 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: As a Elia’s companion. But why was Ashara chosen as Elia's companion? 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: No, just that Barry thinks she was... kk 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: No, but being pregnant does need require sex... Of course. 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Of course, but if she was pregnant she probably had sex at some point... Od course. But did she have sex? 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Pretty much anyone but Barry... That's for certain. 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Dark wings dark words? Or maybe the good old fashion rumor mill... Maybe a friend or associate of Barristan could have told him. I wonder who that friend or associate could be? 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: They clearly do not know for certain kk 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=ashara&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=affc Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 49 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said: You misrepresented me by removing the question mark between the sentences. Still funny though. Good natured jesting, I assure you! Honestly we really don’t know very much about her... I answered some of the questions you listed but others I could only speculate on at best... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said: But why was Ashara chosen as Elia's companion? The problem with your list is you ask for too many answers that can only come from speculation. For instance, we don't know the answer of why Ashara was chosen. Nowhere in the books or in other sources is there a simple definitive answer. We can speculate from other examples that it is common for brides marrying into the royal family to bring ladies of waiting to court with them from their home region. Margaery certainly does so. It brings people with existing relationships to court with the Princess and gives her companions she is comfortable with to ease the transition. It also allows the Princess to have friends she can trust in a court of intrigue. It is also a way for House Martell to give honor to its bannermen. Why then Ashara? We don't know if she had a relationship with Elia that would have her ask Ashara to come to court with her. It certainly is possible. House Dayne is a old and prestigious House known to all of Westeros, and as bannermen to House Martell it is likely she is a child at the Water Gardens along with Elia and Oberyn. Beyond that I think the most likely factor is the simple fact she is Ser Arthur's sister. As the most trusted friend to Prince Rhaegar, I would think bringing Arthur's sister to court is most influenced by this relationship. All speculation built on a few facts and examples, but speculation nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, SFDanny said: The problem with your list is you ask for too many answers that can only come from speculation. For instance, we don't know the answer of why Ashara was chosen. Nowhere in the books or in other sources is there a simple definitive answer. We can speculate from other examples that it is common for brides marrying into the royal family to bring ladies of waiting to court with them from their home region. Margaery certainly does so. It brings people with existing relationships to court with the Princess and gives her companions she is comfortable with to ease the transition. It also allows the Princess to have friends she can trust in a court of intrigue. It is also a way for House Martell to give honor to its bannermen. Why then Ashara? We don't know if she had a relationship with Elia that would have her ask Ashara to come to court with her. It certainly is possible. House Dayne is a old and prestigious House known to all of Westeros, and as bannermen to House Martell it is likely she is a child at the Water Gardens along with Elia and Oberyn. Beyond that I think the most likely factor is the simple fact she is Ser Arthur's sister. As the most trusted friend to Prince Rhaegar, I would think bringing Arthur's sister to court is most influenced by this relationship. All speculation built on a few facts and examples, but speculation nonetheless. Her brother was also on the Kingsguard and Aerys’s great grandmother was a Dayne (mother of Aegon the Unlikely). There is nothing at all surprising about a beautiful young maiden from a respected family serving at court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Her brother was also on the Kingsguard and Aerys’s great grandmother was a Dayne (mother of Aegon the Unlikely). There is nothing at all surprising about a beautiful young maiden from a respected family serving at court. All true as well. One can go on for a while on why it makes sense for Ashara to be called to court as one of Elia's ladies in waiting. I didn't mean my post was an exhaustive list of all the reasons for her to be brought to court. What was the critical factor that made it happen? I like my guess, but who knows? Want another guess? I think Septa Lemore might be the best source for an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 7 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: At the Harrenhal do we know for certain that she was dishonored? Even if Ashara was romantic with someone at Harrenhall does this need to result in sex? Could Ashara being dishonored mean that she was violated? Could it be that Ashara did not have sex at Harrenhal? Who could have fathered her potential child? How did Barristan Selmy hear or find out that Ashara had reportedly given birth to a stillborn girl? There are lots of threads on this subject, but I don't want to summarize them in trying to answer. Let me just say I don't think there is much doubt Ashara was "dishonored" at Harrenhal. Selmy was there and would know the rumors and the basic facts. There is little reason to doubt his recollection. That doesn't mean he knows the intimate details. We don''t know quite a lot of details, intimate or otherwise, but the basics seem reliable. Ashara became pregnant with a child from an affair at Harrenhal. Selmy thinks the child was stillborn. Most smart money, as I see it, is on the "Stark" she turned to being Brandon, not Ned. I don't think Ashara was raped - that would have been a much greater scandal, and Brandon would likely not have made it out of Harrenhal alive. Certainly, the relationship we see between Barristan and Ned in the books show nothing of any animosity between the two from misbehavior by Ned. Selmy even goes so far as to vouch for the dead Ned Stark to Daenerys as she rages against "Starks and Lannisters." But something happened between one of the Starks and Ashara. How did Barristan find out about the stillborn child? He loved her and would have followed any news of her that got back to King's Landing. We don't know just when Elia and her company are summoned back to court, but we do know it is after the new year of 282 because Elia and Aegon are on Dragonstone. Was Ashara with them and with child when they come back? We don't know. We do know she leaves her station and returns to Dorne where she is supposed to have had the stillborn daughter. But Martin has made it clear Ashara wasn't "nailed to the floor" in Dorne. We just know she is in Starfall when Ned arrives, or more accurately, before Ned leaves that city. Ashara's story is one that begs for more information. I'm guessing we find out a lot more because what she did during all this time and possibly later is critical to our story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmberEmpress Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Quote "But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" - Kingbreaker ADWD Here Selmy confirms that she was dishonoured at Harrenhal. It does seem to suggest that she was involved with one of the Stark brothers. Quote "The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench." - Bran II ASOS The maid is Ashara as purple eyes were her defining feature. We learn all the men she danced with at Harrenhal: Barristan Selmy, Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington and Ned Stark. However she did also interact with Brandon Stark as he asked her to dance on Ned's behalf. Barristan Selmy suggested in the first quote that she fell for either Brandon of Ned and that they impregnated her at Harrenhal. Based on the evidence I'd say it's 50/50 which one it was since she didn't dance with Brandon - however he was a known womanizer and we don't know what happened after the feast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 Can we safely assume that if Ashara had a romance and/or got pregnant that any of the male pov characters in ASOIAF, is not the object of Ashara's desire aswell as not the person to have impregnated Ashara? That would give us the opportunity to cross some characters from the list of potential romances and potential impregnators. The characters old enough during Harrenhal is - Eddary Stark - Tyrion Lannister - Davos Seworth - Jaime Lannister - Merret Frey - Aeron Greyjoy - Victarion Greyjoy - Areo Hotah - Arys Oakheart - Barristan Selmy - Jon Connington - Kevan Lannister , can we safely assue that none of these characters were a love intrest of Ashara's and/or impregnated her? Does the unreliable reader function such that we may not know their true or real relationship with Ashara? The true or real relationship does not need to be either romantic or sexual, it could be friendly, indifferent or non existant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, AmberEmpress said: Here Selmy confirms that she was dishonoured at Harrenhal. It does seem to suggest that she was involved with one of the Stark brothers. So Barristan is certain that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, and that the man thay did it or she did it with was a Stark. 7 minutes ago, AmberEmpress said: The maid is Ashara as purple eyes were her defining feature. We learn all the men she danced with at Harrenhal: Barristan Selmy, Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington and Ned Stark. However she did also interact with Brandon Stark as he asked her to dance on Ned's behalf. Barristan Selmy suggested in the first quote that she fell for either Brandon of Ned and that they impregnated her at Harrenhal. Based on the evidence I'd say it's 50/50 which one it was since she didn't dance with Brandon - however he was a known womanizer and we don't know what happened after the feast. This is why their is uncertainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said: So Barristan is certain that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, and that the man thay did it or she did it with was a Stark. No! A common mistake, but the quote says she turned to Stark after being dishonored... not that a Stark dishonored her. Big difference! It doesn’t rule out a Stark baby daddy at all, but it’s not the same as saying a Stark dishonored her. Also, just timeline wise... if she conceived a child at Harrenhall (I don’t think we can be sure of this) and the tourney was during the last two months of 281... she would have given birth in 282 well before Ned arrived at Starfall after his visit to the Tower of Joy in 283. So, no surprise, it doesn’t really make sense that she would kill herself over a stillbirth that occurred a year prior... Also, it’s worth noting how Ned Dayne seems to be named after Ned and seems to have a reasonably good opinion of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: No! A common mistake, but the quote says she turned to Stark after being dishonored... not that a Stark dishonored her. Big difference! Perhaps the Stark she turned to for support could be Lyanna? It does not need to be a male Stark(Brandon, Eddard, Benjen, also i don't think Rickard was at Harrenhal). It is also unlikely but maybe possible that Stark refers to Karstark? 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: It doesn’t rule out a Stark baby daddy at all, but it’s not the same as saying a Stark dishonored her. If not a Stark baby daddy who could it be? I have read that Rhaegar, Aerys, Robert Baratheon and even her brother Arthur could be the baby daddy. 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Also, just timeline wise... if she conceived a child at Harrenhall (I don’t think we can be sure of this) and the tourney was during the last two months of 281... she would have given birth in 282 well before Ned arrived at Starfall after his visit to the Tower of Joy in 283. So, no surprise, it doesn’t really make sense that she would kill herself over a stillbirth that occurred a year prior... Also, it’s worth noting how Ned Dayne seems to be named after Ned and seems to have a reasonably good opinion of him. Maybe the reason Ned Dayne and potentially other Daynes think highly of Ned is just becouse of his character and the fact that he delivered Arthur's sword back to the Daynes. It need not mean that Ned and Ashara were romantically involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII Quote "Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?" "For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow." Here Ned only answers Cersei's last question, he does not say anything on the subject of Ashara. What can we take from that? May it just be a attempt or strategy to keep Jon's past as shrouded as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: No! A common mistake, but the quote says she turned to Stark after being dishonored... not that a Stark dishonored her. Big difference! It doesn’t rule out a Stark baby daddy at all, but it’s not the same as saying a Stark dishonored her. Also, just timeline wise... if she conceived a child at Harrenhall (I don’t think we can be sure of this) and the tourney was during the last two months of 281... she would have given birth in 282 well before Ned arrived at Starfall after his visit to the Tower of Joy in 283. So, no surprise, it doesn’t really make sense that she would kill herself over a stillbirth that occurred a year prior... Also, it’s worth noting how Ned Dayne seems to be named after Ned and seems to have a reasonably good opinion of him. I would reread the quote. It does not say she was dishonored and then she turned to Stark. Let me borrow from @AmberEmpress: 2 hours ago, AmberEmpress said: "But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" - Kingbreaker ADWD We don't know when the dishonoring took place or how it took place. Does Ser Barristan mean the actual affair, or the affair's disclosure? Does the man who has the affair expose their relationship for some reason? Does he publicly reject her? We don't know any of this. Rather it speaks to Selmy's regret for never having declared his love for Ashara, and for keeping to his vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 4 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said: - Tyrion Lannister - Aeron Greyjoy - Victarion Greyjoy - Areo Hotah -Jon Connington Tyrion wasn't old enough. Greyjoys and Areo wouldn't be there. Joncon is homosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I always figured the Daynes were just one big red herring meant to detract the readers away from R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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