Why does Ned and Catelyn’s marriage work?

[BlackLightning]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 4:46 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So compared to most of the arranged marriages throughout ASOIAF, why are Ned and Catelyn the happiest couple? How did it not devolve into mistreatment and bickering like Robert and Cersei, or murderous like Jon and Lysa?

 

1. Because Ned and Cat were both very good people who had (relatively) good people as parents
2. Ned and Cat both honored and understood the importance of marriage in general and their marriage in particular. Divorce was never an option for them.
3. Ned and Cat deeply respected each other as individuals. No sexist, racial/ethnic, religious, political baggage … unlike Doran and Mellario
4. Ned and Cat were patient and diligent enough to work on their marriage making their marriage slowly
5. Ned and Cat both knew their place but they would both be willing to compromise: as the head of house and the Warden of the North, Ned would always have the final say but he followed Cat's lead on a lot of things and listened to her in everything. Cat knew that she couldn't always have what she wanted but she made herself available and flexible enough to make the best of whatever her husband ultimately decided.
6. They made an effort to both enjoy themselves and make their spouse as comfortable as possible so that their spouse could enjoy themselves.

To be honest, the two of them are excellent role models for what a husband-wife relationship should be.

I think it also helps that Ned and Cat were neither too rich for their own good (Robert/Cersei) nor were they hard-up enough to have finances poison their marriage (Jorah/Lyneese).

Oh and who can forget about the fact that they lived in a place where they were far away from naysayers, gossips, meddlers and backbiters. 

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:48 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps because Robb was born already before they really got to know each other. We know they both really love their children. So they shared a common bond and love from the start through Robb. Had Catelyn not gotten pregnant on her wedding night and the only child in Winterfell at the start of their marriage was Jon, things might have been different. 

Also the fact that Ned built her a Sept when they first starting living together in Winterfell probably went a long way with Catelyn as well. Maybe it was a metaphor, Ned was willing to put in the time and effort to build their relationship like he built the Sept. And although they were in the North and Ned didn't follow they Seven, he was willing to compromise by having a southern place of worship for her.

The fact that Ned personally built the Winterfell sept for her...

If there are any guys reading this, I hope they take a hint.

[punzerknacker]

They get along because this way, the readers are cheering for them and Ned's death has a great emotional impact on the reader. The Starks are the heroes of the story. Everything is fine when we first meet them (with the exception of the whole Jon thing) and then it all falls apart piece by piece, creating a dramatic effect.

[Hugorfonics]

20 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

They get along because this way, the readers are cheering for them and Ned's death has a great emotional impact on the reader. The Starks are the heroes of the story. Everything is fine when we first meet them (with the exception of the whole Jon thing) and then it all falls apart piece by piece, creating a dramatic effect.

Not just Jon and his mother but also Brandon. Neds marriage was not perfect. When Ned was deciding on whether or not to accept Roberts job, Cat was getting upset at his shortsightedness and indecisiveness. 

Family Duty Honor is what made Catelyn a good wife. If her life post matramony was in KL like her sisters, it would resemble Lysas marriage more then Cats. 

If a politicial guru like Catelyn lived with Eddard the Hand, she'd pull her hair out faster then she did at the Twins.

[Nevets]

On 6/26/2018 at 12:02 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Not just Jon and his mother but also Brandon. Neds marriage was not perfect. When Ned was deciding on whether or not to accept Roberts job, Cat was getting upset at his shortsightedness and indecisiveness. 

That conversation sounded to me like the sort of thing you would expect in a happy, solid marriage where both sides love and respect each other.  Yes, it is a discussion, even maybe an argument, but no fighting, refusal to discuss, extreme anger, etc.  They talk, and come to agreement.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ned was honorable, and would probably have made a marriage with Lolys Stokeworth work if it was required of him.

Catelyn on the other hand got everything she wanted. It was an “upward’” marriage for her. She  got a position of almost absolute power, a strong alliance for her family, even higher status than she had as a daughter of House Tully, security for her children and a husband as dutiful as one could expect in Westerosi society. And he wasn’t 70 years old either.

From her inner thoughts Catelyn is a rather pragmatic individual highly focused on her almost singular goal of advancing what she sees as her family interests.

She doesn’t look the type who is looking for a silver haired Rhaegar Targaryen or dashing Loras Tyrell to sweep her off her feet.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:29 PM, Nevets said:

Because they happen to be well-suited to one another.  Their personalities meshed well, they wound u liking each other, and they seem to have put effort into the marriage to make it work.  Plus they have five children, which in this case helps hold things together.

In all honesty, I would expect most marriages in a place like Westeros to be like that, where the two parties pretty much get along, especially if the parents do their due diligence and make a compatible match.  It is just that dysfunctional relationships are inherently more dramatic, so they get written about more often (or created out of whole cloth, in this case).

The marriages in the OP probably shouldn't have happened.  Robert and Cersei are absolutely toxic for one another, and they have made no attempt to make it work.  In fact, Cersei has actively sabotaged it.  I also think Jon Arryn and Lysa was doomed from the get-go as well, due to age differences and Lysa's emotional fragility.

I pretty much agree with you here.

However, my question is:  why is this question posed from our 21st century no-nobility eyes?

Girls and boys alike of the nobility dreamt of ladies and lords that their parents chose for them, and furthermore they put trust in their parents "choosing well" they were not brought up with our sense of freedom or defiance, although granted some did have that.

I know it is very allien to us and at times repulsive that one must do one's duty, but I guess no more than for us saying we have to have an occupation for a living...  all things considered.  Their occupations were fixed (Lord, carpenter, steward etc) ours are more mobile and don't get me wrong:  I like them mobile, but this is what they had.

Instead of, say for a girl, to rebel and go off with a hedge knight whilst a high born, they embrace the songs like Sansa did (maybe a bad example, but yeah, be Lady of a great house with a husband and children to love you).  Same for the little lordling in reverse: have a great wife who will be faithfull, keep your keep well attended and will honour you with many children.  And why not???

Even in today's free world a very well paid attorney lady, say, is supposed to marry another professional, doctor mayhaps??? we are not that far from them, although, granted we have the law behind us if we want to stray from those norms....

Why not make the best of what we are given?  I agree, with Cersei and Robert it was true recipe for disaster even then.  He loved Lyanna.  Whether she loved him is another matter and they got into this catch 22 where Cersei wanted to punish Robert and he the same to her.  Cersei, incidentally had love, or thought so, Rhaegar, and Robert, Lyanna.   More star-crossed I couldn't dream off!

Lysa loved LF and yes she was kind of forced to marry Jon, due to the fact that she wasn't intact (and in those days that was big for a noble born).

Catelyn had none of that hate inbuilt in her and neither did Ned, for what we have seen.  Cat was pissed about Jon but accepted him...  Ned must have tried very hard to to romance the betrothed of his brother.

Does it matter that much how we come together or the fact that we have come together???

Many of my friends met on the internet and married, many of my elders disapprove.  That is no true love!  How can anyone say where true love come and sprouts out from???  To me, and I am for sure no expert, communication and understanding, how the parties were introduced is irrelevant.

In favour of their era, I have to say that the "duty" element meant they tried hard at the love or communication.  Today is too easy just to walk away, although sometimes that is the best thing to do too.

Just my two cents

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

That conversation sounded to me like the sort of thing you would expect in a happy, solid marriage where both sides love and respect each other.  Yes, it is a discussion, even maybe an argument, but no fighting, refusal to discuss, extreme anger, etc.  They talk, and come to agreement.

No extreme anger. Just blazes. And despite their different political skill difference and their shared ghosts it is obvious that Cat loves him. 

 

 

"And in yours?"

"And in mine," she blazed, angry now. Why couldn't he see? "He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?"

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey . . . Joffrey is . . . "

She finished for him. " . . . crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

She was about to go to him when the knock came at the door, loud and unexpected.

 

 

However this is not a perfect marriage (what is) but in remote Winterfell their politics hardly clash. If they lived in KL it would have been ugly like Robert and Cersei or Jon and Lysa. Hell, the happiest relationship in KL I can think of was Shae, and that didn't end very well. 

[Morgana Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No extreme anger. Just blazes. And despite their different political skill difference and their shared ghosts it is obvious that Cat loves him. 

 

 

"And in yours?"

"And in mine," she blazed, angry now. Why couldn't he see? "He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?"

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey . . . Joffrey is . . . "

She finished for him. " . . . crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

She was about to go to him when the knock came at the door, loud and unexpected.

 

 

However this is not a perfect marriage (what is) but in remote Winterfell their politics hardly clash. If they lived in KL it would have been ugly like Robert and Cersei or Jon and Lysa. Hell, the happiest relationship in KL I can think of was Shae, and that didn't end very well. 

With regards to Shae, in the show was tragic and the performances of both actors made it great but in the books, she never cared for him, only her silks lol, very sad for he really did care for her even when thinking of sending her away he thought of her future, and bettering her prospects... but we are getting out of subject

 

[Morgana Lannister]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ned was honorable, and would probably have made a marriage with Lolys Stokeworth work if it was required of him.

Catelyn on the other hand got everything she wanted. It was an “upward’” marriage for her. She  got a position of almost absolute power, a strong alliance for her family, even higher status than she had as a daughter of House Tully, security for her children and a husband as dutiful as one could expect in Westerosi society. And he wasn’t 70 years old either.

From her inner thoughts Catelyn is a rather pragmatic individual highly focused on her almost singular goal of advancing what she sees as her family interests.

She doesn’t look the type who is looking for a silver haired Rhaegar Targaryen or dashing Loras Tyrell to sweep her off her feet.

The only thing I would disagree with here is that I don't think House Tully is lower than House Stark; one commands the North, the other the Riverlands, I see them as an equal match.  Same with the Eyrie but Lysa had to put up with the elderly groom because of her "indiscretion."

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

From her inner thoughts Catelyn is a rather pragmatic individual highly focused on her almost singular goal of advancing what she sees as her family interests.

She doesn’t look the type who is looking for a silver haired Rhaegar Targaryen or dashing Loras Tyrell to sweep her off her feet.

She wasn’t pragmatic when it came to a match between Sansa and Joffrey. That was a terrible idea.

[Hugorfonics]

40 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

With regards to Shae, in the show was tragic and the performances of both actors made it great but in the books, she never cared for him, only her silks lol, very sad for he really did care for her even when thinking of sending her away he thought of her future, and bettering her prospects... but we are getting out of subject

 

It is off subject, but... Lol

I'm terrible at guessing what women are thinking, fictional non pov characters are doubled. Idk how Shae wound up in Tywins bed, but I don't think she's 100% guilty in that. She definitely used Tyrion to live in the red keep away from harm, but I do think there was some type of genuine love she felt. Then again maybe I'm just a romantic, and also in love with Tyrion lol.

Back on subject, kinda. Tywin and Joanna allegedly had a good marriage however I'm not sure how much of their marriage was in KL or in the Rock. Rheagars KL marriage was also bad

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

She wasn’t pragmatic when it came to a match between Sansa and Joffrey. That was a terrible idea.

In hindsight. On paper it was a great idea (especially for Cat(

[Morgana Lannister]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It is off subject, but... Lol

I'm terrible at guessing what women are thinking, fictional non pov characters are doubled. Idk how Shae wound up in Tywins bed, but I don't think she's 100% guilty in that. She definitely used Tyrion to live in the red keep away from harm, but I do think there was some type of genuine love she felt. Then again maybe I'm just a romantic, and also in love with Tyrion lol.

Back on subject, kinda. Tywin and Joanna allegedly had a good marriage however I'm not sure how much of their marriage was in KL or in the Rock. Rheagars KL marriage was also bad

In the show, even in the books at first I was all for Ty and Shae! lol I even I suggested in my mind that she becomes Sansa's maid, in that she doesn't want him in his bed so mayhaps she understands another does.  The trouble for me between Ty and Shae in the books was when he nearly died and all she kept doing is asking Varys for her silks and jewellery, that broke my heart because I identify with him a lot lol.

I am like 100% certain that we will see, hopefully in our lifetimes, why Shae was with Tywin that night.  I do not think it is straight forward, but something that Varys knew... He didn't spell it out (Varys) but made comments as to their location under the tunnels, I guess expecting a reaction from Tyrion and know what he was like to find... I think it was something to do with payment for her betrayal perhaps, mayhaps still her self interest or something more, maybe she was even Tywin's all the way (but I doubt) but something shocking for sure.  Probably something so shocking that could prove to Tyrion that they weren't against him so much and OMG the guilt!  No idea what the real reason was but sex for no better reason was not, I don't think...

Okay, this is taking the imagination a little far, but what if they were trying to save him (but take the Black or something) with some ruse.  I can only see LF behind this one and fooling the spider in some way.  Not sure what it was, but more than it meets the eye, I bet heavily upon.

Yes, Tywin can be a bit of a monster and certainly evil to his son but every monster has a soft spot.   I genuinly believe that he loved Joanna.

[HoodedCrow]

We don’t know, I don’t think, how Joanna felt about Tywin.

Does anyone else have spidey sense that Catelyn would not have enjoyed being married to Brandon? Sure, he was dashing, but he was also an impetuous hot head. He was not very good at emotional self control, even though he did not actually kill LF, his foster brother, he did ride up to KL and threaten the king’s heir. He threatened paranoid nutty Aerys , not smart at all. He probably made the dumbest moves to actually find Lyanna and solve the situation there. So politically, he was even worse than Ned. And although watching your father get boiled would be torture in of itself, he did strangle himself, right?

Being an entitled noble doesn’t necessarily make the best character.

Catelyn had to deal with being knocked down a peg because of Edmures birth, and had lady of the nobility down pat. Ned had to adapt to a greater role he wasn’t expecting, but was sitting in a great position to learn how it was done. Both had younger siblings to consider, and foster siblings.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

40 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Does anyone else have spidey sense that Catelyn would not have enjoyed being married to Brandon?

Oh most definitely. Perhaps at first she would have enjoyed Brandon but as time went on I don't believe her marriage with Brandon would have been anywhere near as good as is was with Ned. Brandon is the "fire" Ser. Barristan refers too and Ned is the "mud." "Fire" is great at the start, filled with lust, but when that wanes you aren't left with much. Where as Ned being "mud" is the type that you could build a life and family with. Plus Lady Barb might spread rumors in the North about how Brandon loved her and only married his Tully wife out of duty. Also I believe Brandon slept with Ashara while he was already betrothed to Catelyn. If he did that I doubt he'd stay loyal to Cat over the long years of their marriage. He'd probably have real bastards through out the North and Cat would grow crazy with worry that they would one day take her children's birthrights.  

[HoodedCrow]

Yes, Ralphis, if she was so resentful of Jon, even though Ned was such a respectful husband, Brandon would have wigged her out, with him being such a horn dog.

Can’t see Brandon as being as respectful or appreciative of her skills. I doubt he would have been as fatherly as Ned, also. 

The fire vs mud analogy is a good catch.

[TyrionFan82]

Spoiler

 

Well the bar is pretty low lol. I think their kids brought them together and I do think they genuinely loved each other. I think it worked because there was no outside interference. You didn't have KL like machinations and parents that hated the match.