So Stannis has literally no good reason for thinking himself king right?

[Varysblackfyre321]

Like he has literally no evidence for any of his suspicions, it seems as though he's assumed Cersi's children aren't Robert's because ultimately he does not them to be; he never himself has a conversation with Cersi where she disclosed her illicit affairs, or read a letter from Ned declaring Stannis as the new king. 

I don't know it seems rather befuddling for a man who touts justice being so great and the law being law would pursue an endeavor not truly having a good foundation for why he shouldn't think it's treason. 

It seems slightly hypocrital no?

[Lord Lannister]

So basically another "I don't like this character and no one else should either" thread?

[Lollygag]

Stannis is aware of the black hair thing that runs in the family and there's no Maury Povitch. All 3 of Cersei's kids being blonde and also lacking the other Baratheon traits + Robert's known bastards bearing a striking resemblance to him in more than just coloring is strong evidence that they're not Baratheon for Westeros' low standards. It's evidence that they're specifically Jaime's kids where he's really lacking, but that doesn't matter to Stannis' claim.

There really isn't much law to speak of in Westeros which better allows for more dynamic characters as it puts them into situations where they have to more or less make up their own mind or rely on "tradition" which is often jacked up in-story thus not ideal. I don't care to read a bunch of characters wonder what the law says so that they can act accordingly. Zzzzzzzzz...

Winning a fight is considered "evidence" here, and "evidence" of judgement by the gods no less.

[Lord Varys]

It shows that he really wants to be king and that he is willing to act only on his own beliefs/suspicions without having any proof.

And the fact that he wasn't even willing to talk to Robert about his suspicions also reflects pretty badly on him. It would have been part wounded pride and part suppressed ambition. Let the drunkard die, and then a competent king will sit the throne. A man who is not to be mocked, etc.

[Texas Hold Em]

22 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like he has literally no evidence for any of his suspicions, it seems as though he's assumed Cersi's children aren't Robert's because ultimately he does not them to be; he never himself has a conversation with Cersi where she disclosed her illicit affairs, or read a letter from Ned declaring Stannis as the new king. 

I don't know it seems rather befuddling for a man who touts justice being so great and the law being law would pursue an endeavor not truly having a good foundation for why he shouldn't think it's treason. 

It seems slightly hypocrital no?

Stannis touts justice when its convenient.  He finds it easy to believe what he wants.  But yeah, he has no proof.  

[Texas Hold Em]

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Stannis is aware of the black hair thing that runs in the family and there's no Maury Povitch. All 3 of Cersei's kids being blonde and also lacking the other Baratheon traits + Robert's known bastards bearing a striking resemblance to him in more than just coloring is strong evidence that they're not Baratheon for Westeros' low standards. It's evidence that they're specifically Jaime's kids where he's really lacking, but that doesn't matter to Stannis' claim.

There really isn't much law to speak of in Westeros which better allows for more dynamic characters as it puts them into situations where they have to more or less make up their own mind or rely on "tradition" which is often jacked up in-story thus not ideal. I don't care to read a bunch of characters wonder what the law says so that they can act accordingly. Zzzzzzzzz...

Winning a fight is considered "evidence" here, and "evidence" of judgement by the gods no less.

Being aware of the black hair thing that runs in the Baratheon family is not proof.  Just because the dark hair is more common than the blonde is not proof.  

[Megorova]

46 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Being aware of the black hair thing that runs in the Baratheon family is not proof.  Just because the dark hair is more common than the blonde is not proof.  

It is a proof. All 18 of Robert's bastards (or at least 8 about which Varys knew) had dark hair, same as their father. Their mothers had blond, brown, black and red hair, but all children were like their father. Maybe Stannis additionally knows, what we don't. For example, that in Baratheon family, there was no blond/blonde spouses for a long time. All Baratheons were dark-haired, and for many generations they also married with other dark-haired people. So there's no way, that blond hair of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella was passed to them thru Baratheon line. Because in Baratheon genes there was only alleles of dark-hair coloring. And there was no dark-haired Lannisters. So blond hair is Lannister's genetic trait, while dark hair is Baratheon's trait. Also, based on Robert's numerous bastards, it's obvious that genes of his darker coloring is dominant, while genes of coloring of all those women of his are recessive. Thus no mater what's the mother's coloring, Robert's children will always inherit his dark hair coloring. So blond hair of Cersei's children is a proof, that they are not Robert's. Stannis knew about those bastards, and saw some of them. So for him they were good enough as evidence.

[Lollygag]

51 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Being aware of the black hair thing that runs in the Baratheon family is not proof.  Just because the dark hair is more common than the blonde is not proof.  

You've completely missed my point.

It's not proof in that it can determine child support payments, but it is proof enough if you want to believe it. The only proof of anyone's parentage in Westeros by this standard is if they witnessed the actual birth of the child (only the mother can be indisputably determined), and then you'd need to establish whether the witnesses of the birth were credible and not lying or mistaken, and then you'd have to establish that the kid you're trying to prove parentage of wasn't swapped somewhere along the way. By your standard, there's no proof of the parentage of most people in Westeros. Pick any random character and prove by your standard that they are who they say they are with zero room for doubt.

The hair is proof enough for a lot of characters to act on, and they have, and that's how the books are being written whether anyone likes it or not.

 

[Texas Hold Em]

13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not proof in that it can determine child support payments, but it is proof enough if you want to believe it.

The key is the underlined.  If you want to believe it.  I was not debating your point, I was making a comment.  

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It is a proof. All 18 of Robert's bastards (or at least 8 about which Varys knew) had dark hair, same as their father. Their mothers had blond, brown, black and red hair, but all children were like their father. Maybe Stannis additionally knows, what we don't. For example, that in Baratheon family, there was no blond/blonde spouses for a long time. All Baratheons were dark-haired, and for many generations they also married with other dark-haired people. So there's no way, that blond hair of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella was passed to them thru Baratheon line. Because in Baratheon genes there was only alleles of dark-hair coloring. And there was no dark-haired Lannisters. So blond hair is Lannister's genetic trait, while dark hair is Baratheon's trait. Also, based on Robert's numerous bastards, it's obvious that genes of his darker coloring is dominant, while genes of coloring of all those women of his are recessive. Thus no mater what's the mother's coloring, Robert's children will always inherit his dark hair coloring. So blond hair of Cersei's children is a proof, that they are not Robert's. Stannis knew about those bastards, and saw some of them. So for him they were good enough as evidence.

It's a clue, it's not proof.  But like Lollygag commented, it is proof if you want to believe it. 

Cersei can always argue the fact that Aegon had blonde hair despite all of his mother's kin folks having dark hair.  If you're somebody who likes the Lannisters and don't like Stannis, this is good enough for you.  

[Texas Hold Em]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It shows that he really wants to be king and that he is willing to act only on his own beliefs/suspicions without having any proof.

And the fact that he wasn't even willing to talk to Robert about his suspicions also reflects pretty badly on him. It would have been part wounded pride and part suppressed ambition. Let the drunkard die, and then a competent king will sit the throne. A man who is not to be mocked, etc.

yes

[Varysblackfyre321]

Wait question; how many bastards of Robert exactly were in KL? 

[Lollygag]

 

19 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

38 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not proof in that it can determine child support payments, but it is proof enough if you want to believe it.

The key is the underlined.  If you want to believe it.  I was not debating your point, I was making a comment.   

 

38 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You've completely missed my point.

It's not proof in that it can determine child support payments, but it is proof enough if you want to believe it. The only proof of anyone's parentage in Westeros by this standard is if they witnessed the actual birth of the child (only the mother can be indisputably determined), and then you'd need to establish whether the witnesses of the birth were credible and not lying or mistaken, and then you'd have to establish that the kid you're trying to prove parentage of wasn't swapped somewhere along the way. By your standard, there's no proof of the parentage of most people in Westeros. Pick any random character and prove by your standard that they are who they say they are with zero room for doubt.

The hair is proof enough for a lot of characters to act on, and they have, and that's how the books are being written whether anyone likes it or not. 

 

Most folks take replying to someone with a different opinion as some form of debating for future reference.

The key is bolded. You opted to not include this in your reply. Nobody in Westeros can be proven by modern standards that they are who they say they are. So why hold Stannis up to this impossible standard and not everyone else? He's going off of what he has to work with (looks) just like everyone else. So if Stannis has to (impossibly) prove his claim that Cersei's kids aren't Robert's, then Dany needs to prove (impossibly) that she is Aery's true daughter, Stannis has to prove (impossibly) that he is Robert's true brother, and everyone else...

As for the thread in general, there's not much to discuss here. As for the poster, we've been told by the author about Cersei's kids which is the only proof that matters. From the average Westerosi's perspective, there's nothing in the way of options to prove anyone's identity indisputably by modern standards. They'll believe what they want if they're given some reason to do so and we get more interesting characters and plot because of it.

[Roswell]

To question the fidelity of the reigning queen is serious business.  Eddard and Stan will need better proof than a Baratheon family album.  The best that Stannis can do is cast doubt.  

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

Most folks take replying to someone with a different opinion as some form of debating for future reference.

The key is bolded. You opted to not include this in your reply. Nobody in Westeros can be proven by modern standards that they are who they say they are. So why hold Stannis up to this impossible standard and not everyone else? He's going off of what he has to work with (looks) just like everyone else. So if Stannis has to (impossibly) prove his claim that Cersei's kids aren't Robert's, then Dany needs to prove (impossibly) that she is Aery's true daughter, Stannis has to prove (impossibly) that he is Robert's true brother, and everyone else...

As for the thread in general, there's not much to discuss here. As for the poster, we've been told by the author about Cersei's kids which is the only proof that matters. From the average Westerosi's perspective, there's nothing in the way of options to prove anyone's identity indisputably by modern standards. They'll believe what they want if they're given some reason to do so and we get more interesting characters and plot because of it.

 

[Lord Varys]

Stannis himself knows that the bastards aren't 'proof'. They are oddities he can point to, but even if every Lannister-Baratheon offspring in living memory turned out black-haired - as well as any other Baratheon pairing with a fair-haired woman - then this is still not a guarantee that, for some biological accident, Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister cannot produce three green-eyed, golden-haired children.

Stannis makes proclamations about Cersei/Jaime having an affair, etc. but he doesn't have any proof for that, either. He just claims it is the case. And even if he had proof for that, he would have no proof that they already had an affair years earlier, when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were conceived.

People think Stannis is a good guy because he believes the same thing Ned, in the end, knew to be the case, but unlike Ned he never made any move to inform Robert about the truth, nor did he have any real knowledge (from a personal conversation with Cersei, say) that his suspicions were true.

In fact, we don't even know why on earth Stannis developed the notion that Cersei's children weren't Robert's. What triggered that suspicion? And wasn't it awfully convenient that, if this was true, Stannis would be Robert's presumptive heir? Stannis didn't really care about resolving the issue while it could be still done without a lot of fighting. He didn't go to the king with his suspicions. Instead he fled court, prepared for war, and waited for his brother's death.

We also see Stannis declare that Cersei Lannister murdered Jon Arryn - a claim for which he has no proof, either, and a claim we know is factually wrong. That is a strong indication that the man doesn't really care all that much about evidence.

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The key is bolded. You opted to not include this in your reply. Nobody in Westeros can be proven by modern standards that they are who they say they are. So why hold Stannis up to this impossible standard and not everyone else? He's going off of what he has to work with (looks) just like everyone else. So if Stannis has to (impossibly) prove his claim that Cersei's kids aren't Robert's, then Dany needs to prove (impossibly) that she is Aery's true daughter, Stannis has to prove (impossibly) that he is Robert's true brother, and everyone else...

You are confusing things here. As in real life, children born in wedlock are by default the children of the husband. That's why there is marriage - to ensure that the wife only sleeps with the husband. King Robert recognized Cersei's children as his own and made Prince Joffrey his Heir Apparent. If anybody wants to challenge this fact they have to provide the proof. King Robert, Queen Cersei, and their children are under no obligation to prove that they are who they claim to be. Only the people accusing Jaime/Cersei of incest and adultery have to prove their accusations - as well as the notion that Cersei's children were not fathered by Robert.

If you can't prove it, then you just have a story - just as there is a story that Shireen Baratheon isn't Stannis' biological daughter but was instead fathered on Selyse by Patchface.

The standard in Martinworld - as in the real world - is to believe that people are who they claim to be, and that their parents are the people who claim to be their parents. Nobody in Westeros, for instance, doubts that Stannis Baratheon is Robert's brother, or that Daenerys Targaryen is Queen Rhaella's daughter by King Aerys II.

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As for the thread in general, there's not much to discuss here. As for the poster, we've been told by the author about Cersei's kids which is the only proof that matters. From the average Westerosi's perspective, there's nothing in the way of options to prove anyone's identity indisputably by modern standards. They'll believe what they want if they're given some reason to do so and we get more interesting characters and plot because of it.

In-universe we actually only have Cersei's word that her children are not Robert's. That's very strong evidence but it isn't proof. After all, we do know that Cersei and Robert had did share the bed from time to time (and would have done so around the time the children were conceived - or else Robert would never have believed they were his children) with Robert being usually too drunk to remember what they actually did. But this doesn't mean it is impossible some of Robert's semen entered into Cersei's vagina.

One of her children (or all of them) might actually be Robert's - and she might only mistakenly believe that they are Jaime's because that's what she wants to believe. After all, being the mother is no guarantee that you know who the father of your children is, right?

[Angel Eyes]

On the other hand, it’s rather convenient that it’s Stannis who is suggesting that they are bastards, since their removal from the line of succession due to being incest-bred bastards would make him king. So it just looks like a power grab.

Though, is it possible that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are Robert’s children, and they just look different from the classical Baratheon looks? All the children born to Ned and Catelyn, with the exception of Arya, have the Tully looks. Why didn’t Cersei point this out to Ned when he confronted her?

[Frey Kings]

Renly deserved it. 

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Cersei can always argue the fact that Aegon had blonde hair despite all of his mother's kin folks having dark hair.  If you're somebody who likes the Lannisters and don't like Stannis, this is good enough for you.  

No. Among Elia's ancestors were blond people.

Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell, sister of Daeron II Targaryen. Based on number of generations in Targaryen family (1Daeron - 2Maekar - 3Egg - 4Jaehaerys - 5Aerys - 6Rhaegar), Elia probably was Daenerys' great great granddaughter (Maron + 2Daenerys (she was in age closer to her nephews than to her brother Daeron) - 3children - 4grandchildren - 5Elia's mother - 6Elia). Hair or eye coloring can pass on to even thru 6 generations and further. For example if Daenerys really was Elia's great great grandmother, then there was 25% of possibility that Elia was carrier of blonde hair alleles, and in combination with Rhaegar's genes, there was 50/50 possibility for their children to be blond or dark-haired.   

Could be, that even before Maron Martell and Daenerys, there were other Valyrian spouses in Martell family. For example two generations prior Maron, Aliandra Martell was married with Drazenko Rogare, Valyrian from Lys. There is a possibility that Aliandra's father also was married with someone from Valyrian Freehold. He formed a union with the Triachy. So could be that not only Martell Prince, but also his other family members, and people from Dornish royal court, got married with Valyrians from the Triarchy.

Also there were/are blond people among highborn Dornismen - Yronwoods, Fowlers, some of Daynes, Vaiths, etc. Maybe Martells intermarried with some of them.

So with inclusion of all of those carriers of blond genes in Dorne, it's possible that Elia was a carrier of "blond genes". Though actually it's more than just a possibility, it's a fact. Elia and her brother Oberyn both were carriers of blond alleles. At least one of Oberyn's bastard-daughters is blue-eyed blonde - Tyene Sand. For her to have lightly-colored hair, both of her parents had to be, if not blond, then at least carriers of dark hair alleles and blond hair alleles. Though because they had both, their own hair was dark, but their children inherited from them blond allele, and another blond allele from their second parent, which made them blond.

So Aegon and Tyene is a proof, that Martells had blond ancestors, from whom they inherited blond alleles.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Though, is it possible that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are Robert’s children

No, it's absolutely not possible. Cersei got pregnant from Robert only once, shortly after their wedding. And then Jaime brought her to woods witch, and she drank moon tea, and aborted that child. And from then on, Cersei always used some sort of contraception, every time she and Robert, or any of her other lovers, aside from Jaime, had an intercourse. So it's 100% that Cersei had children only from Jaime (aside from that first aborted child of Robert).

[Angel Eyes]

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No. Among Elia's ancestors were blond people.

Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell, sister of Daeron II Targaryen. Based on number of generations in Targaryen family (1Daeron - 2Maekar - 3Egg - 4Jaehaerys - 5Aerys - 6Rhaegar), Elia probably was Daenerys' great great granddaughter (Maron + 2Daenerys (she was in age closer to her nephews than to her brother Daeron) - 3children - 4grandchildren - 5Elia's mother - 6Elia). Hair or eye coloring can pass on to even thru 6 generations and further. For example if Daenerys really was Elia's great great grandmother, then there was 25% of possibility that Elia was carrier of blonde hair alleles, and in combination with Rhaegar's genes, there was 50/50 possibility for their children to be blond or dark-haired.   

Could be, that even before Maron Martell and Daenerys, there were other Valyrian spouses in Martell family. For example two generations prior Maron, Aliandra Martell was married with Drazenko Rogare, Valyrian from Lys. There is a possibility that Aliandra's father also was married with someone from Valyrian Freehold. He formed a union with the Triachy. So could be that not only Martell Prince, but also his other family members, and people from Dornish royal court, got married with Valyrians from the Triarchy.

Also there were/are blond people among highborn Dornismen - Yronwoods, Fowlers, some of Daynes, Vaiths, etc. Maybe Martells intermarried with some of them.

So with inclusion of all of those carriers of blond genes in Dorne, it's possible that Elia was a carrier of "blond genes". Though actually it's more than just a possibility, it's a fact. Elia and her brother Oberyn both were carriers of blond alleles. At least one of Oberyn's bastard-daughters is blue-eyed blonde - Tyene Sand. For her to have lightly-colored hair, both of her parents had to be, if not blond, then at least carriers of dark hair alleles and blond hair alleles. Though because they had both, their own hair was dark, but their children inherited from them blond allele, and another blond allele from their second parent, which made them blond.

So Aegon and Tyene is a proof, that Martells had blond ancestors, from whom they inherited blond alleles.

I’ve heard a theory that Tyene’s mother is none other than the Waynwood who became a Septa.

Anyways, what exactly provoked Stannis’ suspicions? The looks? The temperament?

[Damon_Tor]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

All Baratheons were dark-haired, and for many generations they also married with other dark-haired people. So there's no way, that blond hair of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella was passed to them thru Baratheon line. Because in Baratheon genes there was only alleles of dark-hair coloring.

The whole reason Robert had a claim to the throne to begin with is because his grandmother was a Targaryen. Even if he has no other grandparent with a blonde gene, he still has a 1/4 chance of carrying the recessive gene.

Quote

All 18 of Robert's bastards (or at least 8 about which Varys knew) had dark hair, same as their father.

Varys isn't reliable. He's been plotting a coup. He's broken innumerable laws in order to create chaos, including murder. We have zero reason to trust him. What we're left with is three or four confirmed bastards by him, yes, each with dark hair. But then 3 or 4 children with dark hair and 3 children with blonde hair are exactly what you'd expect from someone with a recessive blonde gene.

For the record, I do believe Cercei's children are Jaime's, but to presume that Ned or Stannis had irrefutable proof of it is simply incorrect.