House Frey: Robb's Offer vs. Tywin's offer

[The Lord of the Crossing]

To call those deals an offer is putting things too kindly.  My opinion, Lord Walder Frey had to come to the table willing to agree to a deal.  The rest was just haggling because refusing to make these deals with Robb and Tywin could cost his family very dearly.  

• Robb's Deal - Assume the Starks won their rebellion and became an independent kingdom that includes the North and the Riverlands.  Also assume that Robb has an ounce of decency and carried out his end of the deal, meaning he marries a daughter of House Frey, Arya is made to marry Elmar, BW and LW continue their fostering.  
• Tywin's Deal - The Red Wedding takes place, the Starks are defeated and lose their home.  Riverrun goes to the Freys, Roose becomes the Warden of the North and gets Winterfell, Walda marries Roose, Tywin dies, Joffrey dies, etc.  Basically what happened in the books.

 

Which outcome is sweeter for the Frey family?  My opinion is Deal #2 but let us read yours.

 

[The Hoare]

Robb's deal by far. Marriage into royal families is much more prestigious and proportionate much more influence than a lordly marriage and a castle.

[Quoth the raven,]

2 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

To call those deals an offer is putting things too kindly.  My opinion, Lord Walder Frey had to come to the table willing to agree to a deal.  The rest was just haggling because refusing to make these deals with Robb and Tywin could cost his family very dearly.  

• Robb's Deal - Assume the Starks won their rebellion and became an independent kingdom that includes the North and the Riverlands.  Also assume that Robb has an ounce of decency and carried out his end of the deal, meaning he marries a daughter of House Frey, Arya is made to marry Elmar, BW and LW continue their fostering.  
• Tywin's Deal - The Red Wedding takes place, the Starks are defeated and lose their home.  Riverrun goes to the Freys, Roose becomes the Warden of the North and gets Winterfell, Walda marries Roose, Tywin dies, Joffrey dies, etc.  Basically what happened in the books.

 

Which outcome is sweeter for the Frey family?  My opinion is Deal #2 but let us read yours.

 

The problem comes down to the Starks not keeping their word.  It is out of character for Robb to marry a Frey girl he doesn't want and to force Arya to marry a Frey son.  That is what the Starks promised to do and should do but they are not true to their word.  I'll pretend and go with the assumption then.  Which gets Freys some potentially useful marriages but it's nothing practical.  The Freys remain under the despicable Tullys and they gain nothing in terms of land and wealth.  

The second deal gets them what they have: River Run, rid them of the Tullys, Walder gets Robb back for the boy's disrespect, and his new son-in-law is the new warden of the north.  The grandson of the union will inherit the north if he survives Ramsay.  The Freys get what they wanted in the end, marriage to the ruling family of the north.  Elmar doesn't know how lucky he is to avoid the marriage to the ticking nut job called Arya from the first deal.  I will have to say the deal with the Lannisters is a good one.  

[Impbread]

18 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The problem comes down to the Starks not keeping their word.  It is out of character for Robb to marry a Frey girl he doesn't want and to force Arya to marry a Frey son.  That is what the Starks promised to do and should do but they are not true to their word.  I'll pretend and go with the assumption then.  Which gets Freys some potentially useful marriages but it's nothing practical.  The Freys remain under the despicable Tullys and they gain nothing in terms of land and wealth.  

The second deal gets them what they have: River Run, rid them of the Tullys, Walder gets Robb back for the boy's disrespect, and his new son-in-law is the new warden of the north.  The grandson of the union will inherit the north if he survives Ramsay.  The Freys get what they wanted in the end, marriage to the ruling family of the north.  Elmar doesn't know how lucky he is to avoid the marriage to the ticking nut job called Arya from the first deal.  I will have to say the deal with the Lannisters is a good one.  

 

18 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The problem comes down to the Starks not keeping their word.  It is out of character for Robb to marry a Frey girl he doesn't want and to force Arya to marry a Frey son.  That is what the Starks promised to do and should do but they are not true to their word.  I'll pretend and go with the assumption then.  Which gets Freys some potentially useful marriages but it's nothing practical.  The Freys remain under the despicable Tullys and they gain nothing in terms of land and wealth.  

The second deal gets them what they have: River Run, rid them of the Tullys, Walder gets Robb back for the boy's disrespect, and his new son-in-law is the new warden of the north.  The grandson of the union will inherit the north if he survives Ramsay.  The Freys get what they wanted in the end, marriage to the ruling family of the north.  Elmar doesn't know how lucky he is to avoid the marriage to the ticking nut job called Arya from the first deal.  I will have to say the deal with the Lannisters is a good one.  

 It’s called a betrothal. It happens all the time. They wouldn’t necessarily be below the Tullys they would be part of the kings family and thus would have his ear.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

To call those deals an offer is putting things too kindly.  My opinion, Lord Walder Frey had to come to the table willing to agree to a deal.  The rest was just haggling because refusing to make these deals with Robb and Tywin could cost his family very dearly.  

• Robb's Deal - Assume the Starks won their rebellion and became an independent kingdom that includes the North and the Riverlands.  Also assume that Robb has an ounce of decency and carried out his end of the deal, meaning he marries a daughter of House Frey, Arya is made to marry Elmar, BW and LW continue their fostering.  
• Tywin's Deal - The Red Wedding takes place, the Starks are defeated and lose their home.  Riverrun goes to the Freys, Roose becomes the Warden of the North and gets Winterfell, Walda marries Roose, Tywin dies, Joffrey dies, etc.  Basically what happened in the books.

For your convenience, I just marked the parts where you outright make stuff up. You're welcome.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

3 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

To call those deals an offer is putting things too kindly.  My opinion, Lord Walder Frey had to come to the table willing to agree to a deal.  The rest was just haggling because refusing to make these deals with Robb and Tywin could cost his family very dearly.  

• Robb's Deal - Assume the Starks won their rebellion and became an independent kingdom that includes the North and the Riverlands.  Also assume that Robb has an ounce of decency and carried out his end of the deal, meaning he marries a daughter of House Frey, Arya is made to marry Elmar, BW and LW continue their fostering.  
• Tywin's Deal - The Red Wedding takes place, the Starks are defeated and lose their home.  Riverrun goes to the Freys, Roose becomes the Warden of the North and gets Winterfell, Walda marries Roose, Tywin dies, Joffrey dies, etc.  Basically what happened in the books.

 

Which outcome is sweeter for the Frey family?  My opinion is Deal #2 but let us read yours.

 

Deal #1 is sweeter . If Robb won a Frey daughter would be queen , and a Frey descendant would be king . The Freys would gain respectability which they crave .

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

For your convenience, I just marked the parts where you outright make stuff up. You're welcome. 

Tywin gave Freys Riverrun and Winterfell Boltons.

[Lord Lannister]

Walder Frey picked the deal that was best for him. While association with the Starks might have been more "prestigious" that does him little good if they're not likely to win, which was obvious. Nevermind the issues Walder, admittedly rightly, had with trusting anything Robb did.

Throwing his lot in with the Lannisters was really his only safe move. Really the only reason I view Walder in a negative light isn't that he sided with the Lannisters, but how he did it. Had Walder just closed the Twins to Robb an an inopportune time or even openly declared for Tywin and sent his armies to join the Lannisters, I don't think he'd be viewed as much of a villain. Robb did betray him. But he had to have his orgy of revenge, which puts him beyond any reason.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Tywin gave Freys Riverrun and Winterfell Boltons.

No. And no.

We've met Ser and Mrs. Emmon Frey, haven't we? It's Genna Lannister who's really lord in this family. So, by "Freys", you meant "Lannisters".

And regarding Winterfell - it's simply false. Do you have a quote regarding the "giving of Winterfell to the Boltons"?

[Kandrax]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

We've met Ser and Mrs. Emmon Frey, haven't we? It's Genna Lannister who's really lord in this family. So, by "Freys", you meant "Lannisters".

Still, it's House Frey of Riverrun, not House Lannister of Riverrun.

[Bernie Mac]

20 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

For your convenience, I just marked the parts where you outright make stuff up. You're welcome.

You are contradicting yourself here.  Either Genna was given control of Riverrun, despite the Lordship being in the name Frey and the Boltons given Winterfell despite the Lordship still being in the name of Stark. You can't disagree with both, as you are contradicting yourself. One has to be correct. 

22 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Robb's deal by far. Marriage into royal families is much more prestigious and proportionate much more influence than a lordly marriage and a castle.

Robb was not royalty when the marriage offer was made, he was not even a Lord, he was the son of a Lord, a fairly young Lord at that. 

23 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Which outcome is sweeter for the Frey family?  My opinion is Deal #2 but let us read yours.

Deal 2. Not accepting deal 2 may have seen some kind of punishment from the largest power in the realm, not accepting deal 1 may have actually seen reward from the Crown. 

Accepting Deal 2 got the Freys Riverrun, Darry and forgiveness from the Crown. Accepting Deal 1 brought them zero gains, due to neither Robb or Arya marrying a Frey, while it saw them enter into an unwinnable war (initially the Freys thought it was just about Riverrun and Ned, rather than a crown for Robb), around 800 Frey vassal deaths on the Green Fork and the loss of Stevron Frey, the man who Walder had spent decades grooming for leadership. 

Deal 2 was the better of the two, but if hindsight came into play I imagine Walder would have just not bothered to open his gates in AGOT and refuse the possibility of either deal. 

[Bowen 747]

18 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Walder Frey picked the deal that was best for him. While association with the Starks might have been more "prestigious" that does him little good if they're not likely to win, which was obvious. Nevermind the issues Walder, admittedly rightly, had with trusting anything Robb did.

Throwing his lot in with the Lannisters was really his only safe move. Really the only reason I view Walder in a negative light isn't that he sided with the Lannisters, but how he did it. Had Walder just closed the Twins to Robb an an inopportune time or even openly declared for Tywin and sent his armies to join the Lannisters, I don't think he'd be viewed as much of a villain. Robb did betray him. But he had to have his orgy of revenge, which puts him beyond any reason.

Robb was screwing up badly.  I can't blame old man Walder for finding a way to get off the sinking ship of an incompetent captain Robb.  Yes he could have found another way to do it but the red wedding was the safest.  A lot of Walder's critics say he should have just declared for the Lannisters openly.  But there is a big problem with that.  Suppose a peace is negotiated between the two sides and the Tullys got to keep their position.  The Tullys would do to the Freys what they did to the Goodbrooks, nevermind that the Freys were in the right to withdraw their support from Robb.  Any kind of move that the Freys had to make other than supporting Robb will be dangerous to them unless the Tullys are taken down and preferably the Starks are also taken down.  Which is what the red wedding accomplished.  I consider the red wedding one of the best strategic moves in the plot and I do not blame the Freys for their part in it.  

[Bowen 747]

22 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The problem comes down to the Starks not keeping their word.  It is out of character for Robb to marry a Frey girl he doesn't want and to force Arya to marry a Frey son.  That is what the Starks promised to do and should do but they are not true to their word.  I'll pretend and go with the assumption then.  Which gets Freys some potentially useful marriages but it's nothing practical.  The Freys remain under the despicable Tullys and they gain nothing in terms of land and wealth.  

The second deal gets them what they have: River Run, rid them of the Tullys, Walder gets Robb back for the boy's disrespect, and his new son-in-law is the new warden of the north.  The grandson of the union will inherit the north if he survives Ramsay.  The Freys get what they wanted in the end, marriage to the ruling family of the north.  Elmar doesn't know how lucky he is to avoid the marriage to the ticking nut job called Arya from the first deal.  I will have to say the deal with the Lannisters is a good one.  

Hahaha, that could not have gone well for young Elmar Frey.  He dodged a nasty bullet without knowing it.  

[Lord Lannister]

18 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

 I consider the red wedding one of the best strategic moves in the plot and I do not blame the Freys for their part in it.  

Sure it was. For Tywin. He gets his enemy eliminated at virtually no cost and a potential rival in the Riverlands is discredited for at least a generation. The Freys gained a lot from the Red Wedding as well, but not all of it was good. The universal hatred of their neighbors and disrespect even for their allies game with the package and may be more than it was worth.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Deal #2 was the Frey's only logical option especially after Renly was killed.  King Stannis would no more tolerate a King Robb and any of his allies than King Joffrey would.  The Freys would never be safe.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 5/26/2018 at 1:48 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

To call those deals an offer is putting things too kindly.  My opinion, Lord Walder Frey had to come to the table willing to agree to a deal.  The rest was just haggling because refusing to make these deals with Robb and Tywin could cost his family very dearly.  

• Robb's Deal - Assume the Starks won their rebellion and became an independent kingdom that includes the North and the Riverlands.  Also assume that Robb has an ounce of decency and carried out his end of the deal, meaning he marries a daughter of House Frey, Arya is made to marry Elmar, BW and LW continue their fostering.  
• Tywin's Deal - The Red Wedding takes place, the Starks are defeated and lose their home.  Riverrun goes to the Freys, Roose becomes the Warden of the North and gets Winterfell, Walda marries Roose, Tywin dies, Joffrey dies, etc.  Basically what happened in the books.

 

Which outcome is sweeter for the Frey family?  My opinion is Deal #2 but let us read yours.

 

The deal with the Lannisters for the time being.  We have to wait how that plays out but it looks like a winner for now.  Walder pissed off a lot of people but nobody outside the north is willing to go to battle for revenge.  Roose Bolton is the legally appointed warden of the north and the lord of winterfell.  The bitter among the north can't do anything without his leave.  The best the disgruntled can do right now is pick off the vulnerable members of the Freys.  I expect that to end when Walder sends out hunters to find and burn Lady Stoneheart.  It also looks like Roose defeated Stannis.  There will be no retaliation coming from the north if that should prove true.

[Chris Mormont]

First, Walder did not choose between these two deals, the choice was made for him, Robb reneged on the initial deal and thus it was off the table.  Second, the initial deal did not factor in an "independent North, or Robb becoming King", at the time they were marching on Kingslanding to save Ned, but decided to save Riverrun on the way.  Third, after reneging, Robb tried to make up for it with Edmure being his substitute, but that was a step down, that was the choice Walder was making, but by that time the tide was changing for Robb and Walder went with the safer bet. 

[cpg2016]

For what it's worth, even the second offer the Freys get from Robb is better than Tywin's.  A marriage into the Tully's AND the Starks makes them the effective third family in the Riverlands/North.  It's also pretty clear that Walder Frey was angling from the outset to arrange a marriage to Edmure, and that Catelyn bungled that initial negotiation by offering Robb's hand.

As many of the characters in universe say, Tywin has given the Freys a pretty raw deal.  He screws them over with the whole "Joy/joy" thing.  He gives them a poison pill of a castle in Riverrun, because he doesn't actually hold it at the time and it's traditional holder is still alive.  He doesn't give them overlordship of the Riverlands.  So really all they get are a couple of dynastically unimportant marriages, a castle they'll struggle to hold, and a chance at revenge.  In return, they're earning the long term enmity of every other person in Westeros and a reputation for absolute unreliability. Far from being comparable to Robb's deal, this is actively bad negotiating on the part of Walder Frey.  He comes out well the loser here.  In addition to all that, he also is being required to contribute his levies far afield in order to maintain Lannister power, leaving him with less manpower to defend his newly won castles and lands.

[Bernie Mac]

30 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

For what it's worth, even the second offer the Freys get from Robb is better than Tywin's.

No, quite clearly it was not.

• Tywin's offer was peace, Riverrun and a Frey bride for the new Lord of Darry as well as Daven and forgiveness from the Crown, as well as the chance to have revenge on someone Walder now hates
• Robb's offer was a continuation of the current, unwinnable war and a marriage to Edmure

 

One offer has more incentives than the other. 

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  A marriage into the Tully's AND the Starks makes them the effective third family in the Riverlands/North.

No, it does not. By that logic the Westerlings marring Robb would become the 'third' family or that the Flints of the Mountain Clans became the second house in the North when one of theirs married  Lord Stark. 

Riverrun is a far more valuable prize than the marriage to Edmure. It is kind of ridiculous to suggest otherwise. 

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It's also pretty clear that Walder Frey was angling from the outset to arrange a marriage to Edmure, and that Catelyn bungled that initial negotiation by offering Robb's hand.

You do realize that Cat did not have the authority to marry off her brother, right? This is not how the feudal society works. 

Both Walder and Cat are aware of what she has the power to grant, a marriage to Robb and Arya is what she can grant. 

 

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As many of the characters in universe say, Tywin has given the Freys a pretty raw deal.

Please quote these many, or any characters who say Tywin has given them a raw deal? 

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He screws them over with the whole "Joy/joy" thing.

No, the 'joy' marriage was him screwing over the Westerlings

Even from the grave, Lord Tywin's dead hand moves us all. "Joy is my late uncle Gerion's natural daughter. A betrothal can be arranged, if that is your wish, but any marriage will need to wait. Joy was nine or ten when last I saw her."

"His natural daughter?" Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon. "You want a Westerling to wed a bastard?"

 

It is only screwing the Frey's if the Westerlings accept the marriage proposal for the heir of the Crag, if they do one of Walder's bastards misses out on Joy but they still gained Lancel and Daven (and perhaps a suitable replacement for Joy. 

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He gives them a poison pill of a castle in Riverrun, because he doesn't actually hold it at the time and it's traditional holder is still alive.

It is hardly a poison pill, it is no more a poison pill than a marriage to Edmure would have been. Robb was abandoning the Riverlands, hoping to take most of the Frey army with him. Edmure's lands were likely to be forefit no matter which deal Walder accepted

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  He doesn't give them overlordship of the Riverlands.

and? that was never part of the deal to begin with. 

are you somehow suggesting that only Overlordship of the Riverlands trumps a marriage to Edmure? Come on.

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So really all they get are a couple of dynastically unimportant marriages,

Lancel is the new Lord of Darry and pretty high up in the succession line for Casterly Rock and the West. Daven was set to marry the only daughter of Lord Redwyne before his Frey bride came into play. These are hardly unimportant marriages. That is quite the stretch, even for you.

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a castle they'll struggle to hold, and a chance at revenge. 

and that still is more than Robb offered them. 

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In return, they're earning the long term enmity of every other person in Westeros and a reputation for absolute unreliability.

how much different is that to how they were perceived before the red wedding?

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Far from being comparable to Robb's deal, this is actively bad negotiating on the part of Walder Frey.

ridiculous. 

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He comes out well the loser here.  In addition to all that, he also is being required to contribute his levies far afield in order to maintain Lannister power, leaving him with less manpower to defend his newly won castles and lands.

You may have missed this but Robb was expecting Walder to send his army North to help him win back the North

what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart.

the military position the Twins are in after the Red Wedding is far more desirable than the one Robb was about to leave him in.

 

As I said before, of the two deals Tywin's is clearly the superior one but I imagine that had Walder the benefit of hindsight he would have rejected both deals. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Robb would have never been able to protect the Twins and the other castles in the Riverlands against a southern king who had the support of the other kingdoms. I guess Walder was hoping Renly or Stannis would help Robb take out the Lannisters and Robb would bend the knee to them. Robb gave Walder an easy out once he reneged on his betrothal to House Frey. Had Robb kept his word and married a Frey while he was in the Riverlands Walder might have been forced to support a son-in-law in a war he couldn't win. For whatever reason Robb and the Riverlords didn't take into account how impossible it would be for a Northern king to protect the Riverlands from Winterfell.