Was the second shadowbaby necessary?

[White Ravens]

It is hard to know whether the second shadowbaby was necessary to the plot when we still haven't read the whole story.   

I have always assumed that Melisdandre will birth at least one more of these abominations so maybe it will become clearer at that point why GRRM added the second one in with exposition about the sinister looking origins of the mysterious shadow that killed Renly earlier in the book.  He may have decided to have two appearances of the shadowbabies for narrative and exposition reasons.   He wanted the first shadow to appear suddenly in Renly's pavilion, taking Catelyn, Brienne and us readers by surprise in a violently supernatural manner.    The second appearance then becomes support for the first appearance, explaining what was behind the whole disturbing event.  So maybe the second shadowbaby wasn't strictly necessary for the plot purpose of defeating Storm's End in a very timely manner, but was quite important for providing some answers to the reader who might wonder where the hell the shadow assassin came from that slit Renly's armoured throat?

[Rhodan]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:25 AM, Canon Claude said:

Honestly, I have to give the show credit for compressing the two shadowbabies into one. Davos could have watched her birth the first one if they just needed him to see her magic firsthand. The magic of Storm’s End could have been given through lip service or exposition, it hasn’t mattered at all so far.

Technically yes, even though "Davos must accompany Melisandre to send Shadowbaby to Renly´s camp" was kinda weird from logistics standpoint.  

[zandru]

Stannis was, dare I say it, both thrifty and merciful in the way he took out Renly's threat and his army. Stannis only had one (1) man killed, the leader of the opposition. The several others who died were killed by Loras, who went mad with grief upon seeing the body of his lover. Still, a relative handful.

Contrast this with Walder Frey/Tywin Lannister's way. Tywin congratulates himself, asking why killing "one man at dinner" is so awful. He ignores, or doesn't care, or assumes nobody will notice that some 10,000 of Robb Stark's troops were also slaughtered, entrapped in burning oiled tents or shot dead with arrows coming from the orchestra (and now we know why their music was so awful.) Add in Lady Catelyn, who might have been a useful hostage.

Melisandre, I think, clearly wants to birth more shadow babies. She comments that Stannis is no longer up to it, I think back on Dragonstone. But notice how, at the Wall, she seems to be trying to get Lord Commander Snow into her bed. Fortunately, he's not interested. Ygritte's death still weighed upon him, and seeing Melisandre glamour herself into Ygritte did not help her cause with him.

I agree that using a shadow baby to take Storm's End was a lesson for Davos, more information for us readers, and - once again - a much more thrifty, even merciful way to take Storm's End without a years' long siege. Single combat with Penrose would have elevated his status as a significant power. This way, he's just crab food. And Stannis recovers the ancestral Baratheon castle, which should have gone to him by right in the first place. A major gain in "face". Remember how much it cost Robb in support when he lost Winterfell and the North?

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:32 PM, Impbread said:

Yes but he could have named. A champion. And if the champion dies just do the shadow baby. To the posters point I do not think that this was necessary he could have left a s fraction of his enormous host to continue the siege as well.

The problem here is that single-combat is kind of like trial-by-combat: the winner prevails because the gods will it. So if either Stannis or his champion loses, it diminishes his right to take the castle in the eyes of his followers, most of whom are new to his cause. And if Stannis' right to the castle is not solid, what does that say about his right to the Iron Throne?

There is also the possibility that even if Stannis wins, whomever is now in charge of the castle still might not open the gates, particularly if he is not a knight.

With no time to waste on a long siege (perhaps years), Stan had no choice but to give more of himself to Mel's magic. His enormous host is mostly made up of people who only joined his cause just a few days before, so he can't very well leave them to lay siege to the very castle and men who they were allied with earlier in the week, and he can't leave his loyal followers at Storm's End to march north into battle with all of these dubious followers.

So in the end, it was a good use of his last shadow baby.

[zandru]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So in the end, it was a good use of his last shadow baby.

Well stated! Also, if Stannis had defeated the old geezer, Courtnay Penrose, how much respect would that have won him? Single combat is for fools and desperate men (look how often Jaime Lannister suggests it). Sieges may do for people with lots of time on their hands.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 9:51 PM, zandru said:

Well stated! Also, if Stannis had defeated the old geezer, Courtnay Penrose, how much respect would that have won him? Single combat is for fools and desperate men (look how often Jaime Lannister suggests it). Sieges may do for people with lots of time on their hands.

Thanks. I also forgot to mention that if Stannis loses, he will be honor-bound to pack up and march is army away, which would be a strategic nightmare given that Loras and Tarly are at Bitterbridge with a still sizable host. If Stannis marches north with Storm's End still in enemy hands, the Tyrells can easily get substantial forces to the castle and make his life miserable regardless of whether he marches on the Tyrell main host or King's Landing.

So a siege would take too long and single-combat may or may not go Stannis' way, but the shadow baby is a guaranteed hit. Ser Cornay's second-in-command, by the way, is Elwood Meadows, a cousin to the Fossoways, both branches of which (red and green) have now joined with Stannis. So it was a pretty safe bet that simply removing Penrose is all it would take to get the castle.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 5/30/2018 at 4:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

The problem here is that single-combat is kind of like trial-by-combat: the winner prevails because the gods will it. So if either Stannis or his champion loses, it diminishes his right to take the castle in the eyes of his followers, most of whom are new to his cause. And if Stannis' right to the castle is not solid, what does that say about his right to the Iron Throne?

Plus, Stannis has betrayed the Seven for some foreign fire-cult, the gods don't care for that! That's why he lost the Battle of Blackwater!  Note that among his great victories are those over the Iron Islanders (who worship the Drowned God) and the wildlings (followers of the Old Gods). The one time we've seen a follower of R'hllor engage in a trial by combat, he died (seemingly via divine intervention).

[Canon Claude]

11 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Plus, Stannis has betrayed the Seven for some foreign fire-cult, the gods don't care for that! That's why he lost the Battle of Blackwater!  Note that among his great victories are those over the Iron Islanders (who worship the Drowned God) and the wildlings (followers of the Old Gods). The one time we've seen a follower of R'hllor engage in a trial by combat, he died (seemingly via divine intervention).

That theory is meaningless. Supporters of the old gods and Drowned god have won numerous victories against supporters of the seven. And that fire god and the old gods have shown that they have real powers, which is more than I can say for the seven. Nobody who prays to the seven gets their prayer answered, especially Catelyn.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:23 PM, Canon Claude said:

That theory is meaningless. Supporters of the old gods and Drowned god have won numerous victories against supporters of the seven. And that fire god and the old gods have shown that they have real powers, which is more than I can say for the seven. Nobody who prays to the seven gets their prayer answered, especially Catelyn.

I'll grant you Robb's initial victories over the Lannisters, but he still lost. The Ironborn seem to be the biggest losers, only briefly defeating the Northmen early on (losing when Stannis takes them on). Euron may be a different story, but he's "godless". And I find it interesting that you say "especially Catelyn" never has her prayers to the Seven answered, when Race for the Iron Throne points to her & Sansa as two people the Seven listened to.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

Another point to consider is that Stannis seemed unaware of the negative effects of the Shadowbabies on his health until the second one did its work. 

[Canon Claude]

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I'll grant you Robb's initial victories over the Lannisters, but he still lost. The Ironborn seem to be the biggest losers, only briefly defeating the Northmen early on (losing when Stannis takes them on). Euron may be a different story, but he's "godless".

I’m not just talking about Robb’s victories. The Northmen have won many battles against followers of the Seven. They were never conquered by the Andals, and throughout Westeros, the First Men often married into the Andals rather than be defeated in battle or slain. Storm’s End never fell, and the heads of countless Andal warriors lined the coast of the North. To say that the Seven are the only ones who matter denies countless years of the Seven failing to conquer or take root in the Iron Islands, all the many victories of the First Men before they were conquered or simply bred into the Andals, and the fact that the Many Faced God gives the Faceless Men power to assassinate anyone they want for the right price.

[Seams]

This topic really piqued my interest, and I was hoping to come up with something about Ser Cortnay that would explain why his death occurred under such specialized circumstances. I hit on a possible explanation today, but it tied in with something I had already written on a recent thread about the Royce family. In a nutshell, I saw a pattern where a Royce must die for a would-be king's ambitions to move forward. I think Ser Cortnay is a symbolic Royce and he died so Stannis could continue his drive to power. Here is the link to the larger post, if anyone is curious.