Renly agree to support stannis

[Hugorfonics]

On 5/28/2018 at 12:27 PM, Trigger Warning said:

Freys aren't continuously touting their claims on Riverrun. 

That's true. Freys got their own issues though, at least Walder

 

13 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

In a world were success seems to demand coldheartedness and realpolitik I have a hard time seeing why Loras' feels would get any special treatment.

Because Mace is an idiot. He sided with Renly the first time, I'm sure he would a second time

 

[Ylath's Snout]

31 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Willas may not accept a girl with grescale.  

Yeah, this is a kinda huge problem with trying to marry away Shireen. Her latent Greyscale is more than just a disfigurement, it is a potential epidemic that Westerosi medicine seems completely unable to handle.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because Mace is an idiot. He sided with Renly the first time, I'm sure he would a second time

Dang, take that Mace.

[Bernie Mac]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Because Mace is an idiot.

he clearly is not an idiot. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He sided with Renly the first time, I'm sure he would a second time

He sided with Renly because he was going to make Margaery his Queen, while Mace was made Renly's Hand.  Renly is far more likely to compromise to Mace and the Reach lord's wishes than Stannis is

On top of that Mace does not like Stannis, has reason to believe that he still holds a grudge for the siege of Storm's End, while Stannis is married and surrounded by Florents, the family who believe they have a better claim on Highgarden than the Tyrells. He is more than a decade older than Stannis, there is no reason why he would want to live the rest of his life as his subject. 

[Stormking902]

We know that Stannis is an honourable man and that Selyse with her many faults understands Stannis is Stannis and is drivin by duty, couldnt an arrangement be made with the faith to Anul Stannis marriage to Seyle and Margery Tyrell take her place?. This solves everything and with Mace Tyrell and lord Hightower sitting down with the faith directly im sure they would comply especially if a huge donation to the church occured. 

[Bernie Mac]

13 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

We know that Stannis is an honourable man and that Selyse with her many faults understands Stannis is Stannis and is drivin by duty, couldnt an arrangement be made with the faith to Anul Stannis marriage to Seyle and Margery Tyrell take her place?.

at no point in the series does something like that cross Stannis' mind, not even when he has lost on the Blackwater and is desperate for reinforcements and alliances. 

and why would Selyse step aside? why would her family support that? she has done her duty and supplied an heir and it is not Selyse who is avoiding sex, it is Stannis. 

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This solves everything and with Mace Tyrell and lord Hightower sitting down with the faith directly im sure they would comply especially if a huge donation to the church occured. 

it solves everything, just like Stannis discovering three grown dragons that would obey his every command would solve everything, but there is nothing in the books that suggest that it was going to happen. 

[Hugorfonics]

59 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Dang, take that Mace.

Lol

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

he clearly is not an idiot. 

He sided with Renly because he was going to make Margaery his Queen, while Mace was made Renly's Hand.  Renly is far more likely to compromise to Mace and the Reach lord's wishes than Stannis is

On top of that Mace does not like Stannis, has reason to believe that he still holds a grudge for the siege of Storm's End, while Stannis is married and surrounded by Florents, the family who believe they have a better claim on Highgarden than the Tyrells. He is more than a decade older than Stannis, there is no reason why he would want to live the rest of his life as his subject. 

Then he acts like an idiot. And should got an Oscar

He sided with Renly because Loras asked him to. The offer was sweet but it was all Renlys plan.

Stannis is known to be honorable and just to the extreme, if Mace swore fealty he wouldn't lose Highgarden. It's not unreasonable that Mace could have  even been made Hand, or at least on the small council.

Yea they hate florents, but they hate every reachman. They hate dornish even more, damn snakes flooded the court during the Targaryen years, no real problems then.

Everyone hates Stannis. But Renly was Joffreys first usurper, if he sided with Stannis then Robb and Balon may not have crowned themselves, that puts alot of burden on Lannister. Robb would still march to save Sansa, who'd be unavailable to marry a Tyrell(as he told his mom he wished he could)  So with Lannister clearly losing the war, if they want to fight against Stannis and Loras' happiness, it's either them or Greyjoy. Not even Mace is that stupid

[Arthur Peres]

17 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Renly marrying Margaery as Stannis' heir and future king might convince the Tyrells to go along with it. Renly heavily influenced Loras who heavily influenced Mace. Extra insurance could be guaranteed by marrying Shireen to Willas or Garlan. The problems of course would be the Tyrells grudge against the Florents and Stannis' grudge against the Tyrells.

Wouldn't this being asking for Stannis to get the Joffrey treatment ?

[Ylath's Snout]

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Wouldn't this being asking for Stannis to get the Joffrey treatment ?

Oh come on, like a upstanding house like the Tyrells would ever do such a thing...

... yeah no Stannis would be in the danger zone as soon as Shireen got bedded by Garlan.

[Bernie Mac]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Then he acts like an idiot. And should got an Oscar

In the show he does, not in the books.

 

In the books he acts like a regular Lord, pompous, arrogant and sociable. Not every character is going to be some scheming Machiavellian trope, but that does not make them an idiot. and the fact that he, nor any of his inner circle, are not POV's gives no reason why we should see him as such. 

By the end of ADWD he is the most powerful person in the realm, his faction has overcome the Lannister faction in terms of control of the government while still expecting to count them as allies. He is the Hand, his daughter the Queen and his closest allies are on the Small Council, his realm, unlike the Riverlands, Westerlands, North and Crownlands untouched by war while his armies suffering the fewer casualties than those regions. 

 

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He sided with Renly because Loras asked him to.

No, he didn't. 

"She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother, how can he possibly have any claim to that ugly iron chair? Tut-tut, says my son, don't you want your sweetling to be queen?... 'What does it matter?' you ask, and of course it doesn't, except to oafs like my son. The thought that one day he may see his grandson with his arse on the Iron Throne makes Mace puff up like . . . now, what do you call it? Margaery, you're clever... After Lord Puff Fish put that crown on Renly's head, we were into the pudding up to our knees, so here we are to see things through. And what do you say to that, Sansa?"

His daughter being Queen is what made him rebel. Notice that unlike poor old Walder, Mace is intelligent enough to get the deal done before he actually rebels. 

And while both Loras and Mace liking Renly did not hurt, it was not the reason he rebelled, it was the idea of his grandson being a King. 

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The offer was sweet but it was all Renlys plan.

It may well have been. What does that have to do with this discussion? Mace is the one who accepted the offer, got himself made Hand in the process. 

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Stannis is known to be honorable and just to the extreme,

No, he is known to be righteous. There is zero evidence in the books that Stannis is regarded as any more honorable than the average noble. 

You may be confusing how Davos perceives Stannis to the rest of Westeros. 

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if Mace swore fealty he wouldn't lose Highgarden.

Olenna points out that it was a threat.

but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire. If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. 

Littlefinger makes it clear to Ned how Stannis would be viewed should he become king

Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

 

and Ned does not disagree, just that his honour would not allow it. Littlefinger's comments are actually supported by Stannis himself

"Davos, I have missed you sorely," the king said. "Aye, I have a tail of traitors, your nose does not deceive you. My lords bannermen are inconstant even in their treasons. I need them, but you should know how it sickens me to pardon such as these when I have punished better men for lesser crimes.

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'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends.

Stannis is someone who holds grudges, the fact that his most loyal subject was mutilated by Stannis for saving his life. No lord is going to trust Stannis to forgive and forget, his righteous code demands punishment be met. 

 

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It's not unreasonable that Mace could have  even been made Hand, or at least on the small council.

He wasn't even willing to offer Renly the Handship when they were negotiating, he is not going to offer it to Mace. 

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Yea they hate florents, but they hate every reachman.

who hates every reachman?

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Everyone hates Stannis. But Renly was Joffreys first usurper, if he sided with Stannis then Robb and Balon may not have crowned themselves,

why would he have sided with Stannis? Mace and the Tyrells don't have a problem with Joffrey or the Lanniters, at least at the start of the book. they are motivated out of ambition and Stannis does not offer them anything. 

 

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Oh come on, like a upstanding house like the Tyrells would ever do such a thing...

... yeah no Stannis would be in the danger zone as soon as Shireen got bedded by Garlan.

Garlan is already married

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In the show he does, not in the books.

I don't watch the show

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

In the books he acts like a regular Lord, pompous, arrogant and sociable. Not every character is going to be some scheming Machiavellian trope, but that does not make them an idiot. and the fact that he, nor any of his inner circle, are not POV's gives no reason why we should see him as such. 

By the end of ADWD he is the most powerful person in the realm, his faction has overcome the Lannister faction in terms of control of the government while still expecting to count them as allies. He is the Hand, his daughter the Queen and his closest allies are on the Small Council, his realm, unlike the Riverlands, Westerlands, North and Crownlands untouched by war while his armies suffering the fewer casualties than those regions. 

"My lord," Cersei broke in, "I fear there has been some misunderstanding. I have asked Lord Gyles Rosby to serve as our new master of coin, and he has done me the honor of accepting."

Mace gaped at her. "Rosby? That . . . cougher? But . . . the matter was agreed, Your Grace. Garth is on his way to Oldtown."

"Best send a raven to Lord Hightower and ask him to make certain your uncle does not take ship. We would hate for Garth to brave an autumn sea for nought." She smiled pleasantly.

A flush crept up Tyrell's thick neck. "This . . . your lord father assured me . . ." He began to sputter.

Then his mother appeared and slid her arm through his own. "It would seem that Lord Tywin did not share his plans with our regent, I can't imagine why. Still, there 'tis, no use hectoring Her Grace. She is quite right, you must write Lord Leyton before Garth boards a ship. You know the sea will sicken him and make his farting worse." Lady Olenna gave Cersei a toothless smile. 

 

 

Arguing with the Queen in public is crazy, the fact that it's immediately after her father's wake is hilarious. 

He makes other funny observations and comments also. Other characters like his mother or the three Lannisters also mock his intellect. 

He's doing well for himself, no doubt about that.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he didn't. 

"She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother, how can he possibly have any claim to that ugly iron chair? Tut-tut, says my son, don't you want your sweetling to be queen?... 'What does it matter?' you ask, and of course it doesn't, except to oafs like my son. The thought that one day he may see his grandson with his arse on the Iron Throne makes Mace puff up like . . . now, what do you call it? Margaery, you're clever... After Lord Puff Fish put that crown on Renly's head, we were into the pudding up to our knees, so here we are to see things through. And what do you say to that, Sansa?"

His daughter being Queen is what made him rebel. Notice that unlike poor old Walder, Mace is intelligent enough to get the deal done before he actually rebels. 

And while both Loras and Mace liking Renly did not hurt, it was not the reason he rebelled, it was the idea of his grandson being a King. 

 It's hard to tell like you said without a pov reference, but yeah everyone wants their grandkid to be king. But Renly was persuasive, almost had Ned doing some real evil stuff. If Ned was on board for that, don't you think Tyrell would too? That's partaking in treason for no regality

How well did Mace get the job done? Margarey swears it wasn't consummated. And even if it was, Renly wasn't going at her like that. 

The whole idea of Robb sleeping, or even meeting his bride is ridiculous. His dad and uncle were rotting in jail. Edmure says as much the second time, but Frey explained Robb's slight was the reason for a fast wedding.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he is known to be righteous. There is zero evidence in the books that Stannis is regarded as any more honorable than the average noble. 

You may be confusing how Davos perceives Stannis to the rest of Westeros. 

"A turncloak would tell you what you wished to hear and betray you later. Your Grace knows that I was fairly chosen. My father always said you were a just man." Just but harsh had been Lord Eddard's exact words, but Jon did not think it would be wise to share that.

 

 

"Just so." The magister covered his mouth and belched a mighty belch. "Do you think King Stannis will give it to you? I am told he is a great one for the law. Your brother wears the white cloak, so you are heir by all the laws of Westeros."

"Stannis might well grant me Casterly Rock," said Tyrion, "but for the small matter of regicide and kinslaying. For those he would shorten me by a head, and I am short enough as I stand.

 

There's honor and then there's honor. But in terms of fainress the law and justice, that's Stannis.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Olenna points out that it was a threat.

but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire. If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. 

Sansa's mouth opened and closed. She felt very like a puff fish herself. "The Tyrells can trace their descent back to Garth Greenhand," was the best she could manage at short notice.

The Queen of Thorns snorted. "So can the Florents, the Rowans, the Oakhearts, and half the other noble houses of the south. Garth liked to plant his seed in fertile ground, they say. I shouldn't wonder that more than his hands were green."

 

All the Tyrell know are threats, the Reach is hectic.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Littlefinger makes it clear to Ned how Stannis would be viewed should he become king

Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

 

and Ned does not disagree, just that his honour would not allow it. 

Petyr lies, like almost always. And if we're having a conversation about a characters intelligence, we should leave Ned out lol.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Littlefinger's comments are actually supported by Stannis himself

"Davos, I have missed you sorely," the king said. "Aye, I have a tail of traitors, your nose does not deceive you. My lords bannermen are inconstant even in their treasons. I need them, but you should know how it sickens me to pardon such as these when I have punished better men for lesser crimes.

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'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends.

Stannis is someone who holds grudges, the fact that his most loyal subject was mutilated by Stannis for saving his life. No lord is going to trust Stannis to forgive and forget, his righteous code demands punishment be met. 

The men following Stannis were traitors. When Stannis raised his banners they stayed with Renly, if Renly never rose his banners...

Mace and Balon are from past wars that have treaties, Stannis would have no reason to dislike him if they answered his call.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He wasn't even willing to offer Renly the Handship when they were negotiating, he is not going to offer it to Mace. 

who hates every reachman?

Renly was a traitor then, also no one asked.

Because of the quote i gave above, where half the reachmen have a claim for highgarden.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he have sided with Stannis? Mace and the Tyrells don't have a problem with Joffrey or the Lanniters, at least at the start of the book. they are motivated out of ambition and Stannis does not offer them anything. 

Because if Renly asked Loras and Mace, they'd say yea.

The Tyrells do have a problem with Lannister. Gregor tried to kill Loras. Joffrey also commanded thim to come to KL and swear fealty.

I suppose they could have remained neutral, hard, lots of speculation

[Ylath's Snout]

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Garlan is already married

Ahh, my bad. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't watch the show

Well he is certainly does not act like an idiot in the books, he acts like a regular noble. 

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Arguing with the Queen in public is crazy,

that was hardly an argument, but sure, it was unwise. one shocked conversation with the Queen mother (Cersei had not been the Queen since Robert had died) does not make someone an idiot. Tyrion constantly did it, do you consider him an idiot? 

 

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He makes other funny observations and comments also.

such as? 

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Other characters like his mother or the three Lannisters also mock his intellect. 

yes, two characters, his mother who is trying to convince Sansa that Highgarden is much more gentler than the viper pit that is Kings landing and Cersei, herself not exactly rational at the time. 

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He's doing well for himself, no doubt about that.

he is doing extremely well. 

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 It's hard to tell like you said without a pov reference, but yeah everyone wants their grandkid to be king. But Renly was persuasive, almost had Ned doing some real evil stuff.

No he didn't. At what point did Ned consider Renly's request? Renly completely failed to convince Ned and had to leave as a result. There was no almost about it.  The only other times do we see Renly try to convince someone else is Stannis and he fail at that. 

And what was evil about it? 

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If Ned was on board for that, don't you think Tyrell would too? That's partaking in treason for no regality

but Ned was not on board. this is a pretty flimsy argument. 

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How well did Mace get the job done?

they were legally married, so of course he got the job done. 

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Margarey swears it wasn't consummated.

what do you think she was going to say? that she was spoilt goods, please marry me anyway?

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And even if it was, Renly wasn't going at her like that. 

how do you know? he may have been bi. and even if he was just gay, that does not stop him from impregnating someone.

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The whole idea of Robb sleeping, or even meeting his bride is ridiculous.

not really, not in medieval times, that is what bedding ceremonies are there for. honestly, I am constantly surprised with some people's attitude to different sexuality in the fandom. many men and women who preferred the intimate company of their own gender have been more than capable of producing children.  

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His dad and uncle were rotting in jail. Edmure says as much the second time, but Frey explained Robb's slight was the reason for a fast wedding.

i agree, I am just pointing out that Mace was smart to make sure the marriage happened first and not when Renly was King and in a position to say no. Richard Neville probably he wishes he did the same. 

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There's honor and then there's honor.

No one claims that Stannis is more honorable than the average noble. you were wrong. 

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But in terms of fainress the law and justice, that's Stannis.

the law in a medieval time is far from fair. No one is counting on Stannis to be fair. Just look how he treated Davos or his own nobles who he burnt alive, or even his own in-law. 

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All the Tyrell know are threats, the Reach is hectic.

eh?

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Petyr lies, like almost always.

ned does not think that was a lie. tell you what here is the entire quote

"Oh, a shred, surely," Littlefinger replied negligently. "Hear me out. Stannis is no friend of yours, nor of mine. Even his brothers can scarcely stomach him. The man is iron, hard and unyielding. He'll give us a new Hand and a new council, for a certainty. No doubt he'll thank you for handing him the crown, but he won't love you for it. And his ascent will mean war. Stannis cannot rest easy on the throne until Cersei and her bastards are dead. Do you think Lord Tywin will sit idly while his daughter's head is measured for a spike? Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

What parts of that speech are a lie?

How does his warning contradict Mace's action when he not only turned Stannis down twice but killed and imprisoned his loyalists at Bitterbridge? 

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And if we're having a conversation about a characters intelligence, we should leave Ned out lol.

Why? Do you think Ned has a poor IQ? Are you under the assumption that if someone is not politically devious it makes them an idiot? 

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The men following Stannis were traitors. When Stannis raised his banners they stayed with Renly, if Renly never rose his banners...

the men who were serving Aerys were not traitors and yet Stannis wanted to punish them while Robert forgave them. 

if you think Stannis does not have a reputation of holding a grudge then prove it. i have quoted characters, including Stannis himself. who make it clear that he does. 

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Mace and Balon are from past wars that have treaties, Stannis would have no reason to dislike him if they answered his call.

that is not the belief. he punished Davos for his past crimes did he not? 

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Renly was a traitor then, also no one asked.

so why bring it up? you are bringing up an offer that Stannis did not make and had no intention of making. what is the point of you bringing up Mace as Stannis' Hand?

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Because of the quote i gave above, where half the reachmen have a claim for highgarden.

and the Florents the best one, the only ones who complain about it and the only ones who the Tyrells comment on them being  a threat

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Because if Renly asked Loras and Mace, they'd say yea.

so why did he have to marry Margery, only a few points ago you were saying how Renly was unlikely to consumate it. 

if Mace was willing to do what Renly asked without a price then why did the marriage happen? and why did it happen before Mace rebelled?

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The Tyrells do have a problem with Lannister.

no they didn't. not at the start of the series

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Gregor tried to kill Loras.

In a tourney, and Gregor is not a Lannister, he is a Clegane and another Clegane saved his life. 

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Joffrey also commanded thim to come to KL and swear fealty.

Yeah, new kings do that. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well he is certainly does not act like an idiot in the books, he acts like a regular noble. 

that was hardly an argument, but sure, it was unwise. one shocked conversation with the Queen mother (Cersei had not been the Queen since Robert had died) does not make someone an idiot. Tyrion constantly did it, do you consider him an idiot? 

yes, two characters, his mother who is trying to convince Sansa that Highgarden is much more gentler than the viper pit that is Kings landing and Cersei, herself not exactly rational at the time. 

I think he's an idiot. Greedy, pompus and shortsighted. The average noble I think would be like Karyl Vance, or some other unknown Lord whos loyal to their boss. Out of the real lords, they're all kind of unique. But I think Mace has more of those attributes then the other Lords.

Tyrion, The (acting) Hand, did not argue in public. It was in bedrooms or the small council.

Two pov characters, with Cersei is 3. 3 out of 3 pov characters in KL mock him (Keaven makes 4) His mom makes Highgarden seem safe by calling it's Lord and idiot? 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

such as? 

"Storm's End."Lord Mace Tyrell grunted the words. "He cannot take Storm's End. Not if he were Aegon the Conqueror. And if he does, what of it? Stannis holds it now. Let the castle pass from one pretender to another, why should that trouble us? I shall recapture it after my daughter's innocence is proved."

How can you recapture it when you have never captured it to begin with? "I understand, my lord, but - "

 

It's a weird thing to say. Lannister or the IT or especially Mace never captured SE. Also how does he not realize that giving Griff a base of operations is a huge victory for the GC? It's comical, like this

 

The new King's Hand was seated on an oaken throne carved in the shape of a hand, an absurd vanity his lordship had produced the day Ser Kevan agreed to grant him the office he coveted 

 

Maybe there's something to that acting like an idiot

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

he is doing extremely well. 

So is my President. It won't last. I know intelligent people who are struggling and wealthy morans. Intelligence isn't the only thing.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No he didn't. At what point did Ned consider Renly's request? Renly completely failed to convince Ned and had to leave as a result. There was no almost about it.  The only other times do we see Renly try to convince someone else is Stannis and he fail at that. 

And what was evil about it? 

but Ned was not on board. this is a pretty flimsy argument. 

Your right, my mistake. 

Seems evil to me, kidnapping three children.

 

"Was it the regency? Has my brother named you Protector?" He did not wait for a reply. "My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. 

 

He never mentions Tyrell, but he says Lords. And given Renlys relationship with Loras, I don't think it's much of a stretch.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

they were legally married, so of course he got the job done. 

what do you think she was going to say? that she was spoilt goods, please marry me anyway?

how do you know? he may have been bi. and even if he was just gay, that does not stop him from impregnating someone.

not really, not in medieval times, that is what bedding ceremonies are there for. honestly, I am constantly surprised with some people's attitude to different sexuality in the fandom. many men and women who preferred the intimate company of their own gender have been more than capable of producing children.  

This is all lots of speculation, I try to avoid that, but Renly may have bedded Margery for duty. He may even come back, but it won't be like what a woman should expect from a healthy Barathron male.

Yea, she got nothing else to say, strangely enough I believe her. Despite the septas proving she's not a virgin.

We never hear of any Renlys romance like Oberyn, I think it's safe to say it was just Loras (which is all weird and uncomfortable, like how long ago did they start? Loras is only a teenager now. And Margery and Loras don't mind? Sheesh, and j thought Tywin turned a blind eye)

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

i agree, I am just pointing out that Mace was smart to make sure the marriage happened first and not when Renly was King and in a position to say no. Richard Neville probably he wishes he did the same. 

No one claims that Stannis is more honorable than the average noble. you were wrong. 

the law in a medieval time is far from fair. No one is counting on Stannis to be fair. Just look how he treated Davos or his own nobles who he burnt alive, or even his own in-law. 

I think the fact that he had a Tyrell Queen helped out Renlys claim, by telling other houses of this great regal alliance. 

Honor is a weird word. Ya know, it's a horse. It can mean anything. I intended it to mean just and lawful. And yeah Stannis is known for that, as the quotes I provided stated.

The law says don't smuggle, obey Rhllor and don't sell Shireen to Lannister. Stannis answerd each crime with his sense of justice.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

ned does not think that was a lie. tell you what here is the entire quote

"Oh, a shred, surely," Littlefinger replied negligently. "Hear me out. Stannis is no friend of yours, nor of mine. Even his brothers can scarcely stomach him. The man is iron, hard and unyielding. He'll give us a new Hand and a new council, for a certainty. No doubt he'll thank you for handing him the crown, but he won't love you for it. And his ascent will mean war. Stannis cannot rest easy on the throne until Cersei and her bastards are dead. Do you think Lord Tywin will sit idly while his daughter's head is measured for a spike? Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

What parts of that speech are a lie?

How does his warning contradict Mace's action when he not only turned Stannis down twice but killed and imprisoned his loyalists at Bitterbridge? 

Why? Do you think Ned has a poor IQ? Are you under the assumption that if someone is not politically devious it makes them an idiot? 

Because Ned too is an idiot (I'd say smarter then Mace)

Like all of it. He would replace some positions sure, like coins and whispers, but I think ships and Barri are safe. The Rock would rise alone. Stannis forgave and pardaond Tyrell bannermen. The realm will bleed no matter what, Petyr guaranteed. 

When Mace turns down Stannks twice it's after Renly, but if Renly swore fealty to Stannis...

Yea. Ned was a good commander, good father and uncle too. When it came to KL we see his true colors. The man was not intelligent.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

the men who were serving Aerys were not traitors and yet Stannis wanted to punish them while Robert forgave them. 

that is not the belief. he punished Davos for his past crimes did he not?

Stannis didn't want them fighting by his side, he couldn't fathom Robert winning their loyalty.

He pardoned the lords who served Renly. He's got a grudge, he just doesn't let that interfere with his duty. 

Who's belief? Davos was a criminal, of course he got punished.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

so why bring it up? you are bringing up an offer that Stannis did not make and had no intention of making. what is the point of you bringing up Mace as Stannis' Hand?

and the Florents the best one, the only ones who complain about it and the only ones who the Tyrells comment on them being  a threat

so why did he have to marry Margery, only a few points ago you were saying how Renly was unlikely to consumate it. 

if Mace was willing to do what Renly asked without a price then why did the marriage happen? and why did it happen before Mace rebelled?

Florent answered Stannis' call. He made him hand. If Mace was there, he'd probably get the gig.

The best ones? We hear them complain because we know Florents. Not many other Reach Families in the story. Theyre a threat because their Stannis' most loyal men. 

Appearances. Renly was wondering if Doran would answer his call, Stark too. In order to build alliances other countries like to make sure your looking strong.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

no they didn't. not at the start of the series

In a tourney, and Gregor is not a Lannister, he is a Clegane and another Clegane saved his life. 

Yeah, new kings do that. 

 

They sacked Kingslanding and are the Kingslayer and the Imp. Renly was planning on using Margery to entice Robert from Cersei. There was animosity. 

Loras wanted revenge on Gregor, that's something.

It was mostly just Riverlanders Northerners and Doran.  No Greyjoy  or Arryn 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think he's an idiot.

sure, your welcome to think like that, but the books don't really portray him any differently to the majority of the nobility. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Greedy, pompus

they are all greedy and pompous, and neither affliction means someone is an idiot. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

and shortsighted.

clearly not the case. At the end of ADWD he is the most powerful person in the realm. maybe you are confusing Mace with his father who galloped off a cliff and may genuinely have been short sighted.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

The average noble I think would be like Karyl Vance, or some other unknown Lord whos loyal to their boss.

Loyalty and intelligence have nothing to do with each other. For thousands of years we have bred dogs to be loyal and domesticated and as a result they have become less intelligent. 

and in actual fact we have no idea how Vance would have acted in Mace's position, he has never been in a position were he could advance his House by betraying his Lord, his lands were the ones being attacked and the Tully's sided with him

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Out of the real lords, they're all kind of unique. But I think Mace has more of those attributes then the other Lords.

none of the attributes you have mentioned have anything to do with intelligence.  both intelligent and idiots can be greedy, pompous and loyal. they are all perfectly valid reasons to dislike someone, but they do not prove someone is an idiot. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion, The (acting) Hand, did not argue in public. It was in bedrooms or the small council.

no, he did so in public, people testified to him slapping the king of westeros/crown prince. he lost his shit at Joffrey's wedding. 

by your definition this would make him an idiot, no? or are only characters you don't like idiots?

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Two pov characters, with Cersei is 3. 3 out of 3 pov characters in KL mock him (Keaven makes 4)

Kevan does not mock him, Kevan is careful not to insult the person who is the real kingmaker in the series

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

His mom makes Highgarden seem safe by calling it's Lord and idiot? 

yes, Sansa can barely breath in kings landing as everyone has an agenda, everyone is putting on an act waiting to slip the dagger. by portraying the men of Highgarden as more simple she is enticing Sansa to move there when the reality is they are just trying to get her claim. 

I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's a weird thing to say. Lannister or the IT or especially Mace never captured SE.

he was close to. Storm's End can not last forever and the Crown has a far, far larger army, more supplies and it is winter. Mace can wait and eventually take it. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also how does he not realize that giving Griff a base of operations is a huge victory for the GC? 

it is not a victory against the crown. Stannis had it and now Connington does. the status quo has not really changed that much. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

The new King's Hand was seated on an oaken throne carved in the shape of a hand, an absurd vanity his lordship had produced the day Ser Kevan agreed to grant him the office he coveted 

again, vanity is not a sign of idiocy (at least I hope not). 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Seems evil to me, kidnapping three children.

he wanted to imprison their mother, who wanted him dead, the children, like many medieval royals without parents, would be in the care of the state. 

the plan he had for the children is less evil than the one Ned or Stannis had for them

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He never mentions Tyrell, but he says Lords. And given Renlys relationship with Loras, I don't think it's much of a stretch.

I'm not sure your point. a) Loras is not Mace and b) his plan was not rebellion, it was removing Cersei, but Joffrey would remain the new King, certainly a coup, but not an actual rebellion.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

This is all lots of speculation, I try to avoid that, but Renly may have bedded Margery for duty. He may even come back, but it won't be like what a woman should expect from a healthy Barathron male.

Stannis is a healthy Baratheon male, was Selyse getting what was expected from a 'healthy Baratheon male'. 

Do go on, I'm curious to know what is expected? 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, she got nothing else to say, strangely enough I believe her. Despite the septas proving she's not a virgin.

Again, not sure what the point is here? Mace made sure they were married and there is nothing, apart from immature thoughts about sexuality, that suggest Renly would not do his duty and create heirs. 

There will have been thousands, perhaps, hundreds of thousands, maybe even more of men and women who were able to have children in the past despite their sexual preference being something else. they don't all get squeamish at the thought of it and refuse.  

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

We never hear of any Renlys romance like Oberyn,

we don't actually hear of Oberyn's previous romances, we know the 40something Oberyn has many bastards, half of which were born before his current courtship. we can connect the dots. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think it's safe to say it was just Loras

it likely was. again, this does not rule him out being bisexual and even if gay does not rule him out of having sex with women, especially when he needs heirs to secure his kingdom. 

I encourage you to broaden your horizons. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

(which is all weird and uncomfortable, like how long ago did they start? Loras is only a teenager now. And Margery and Loras don't mind? 

totally agree, certainly weird. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think the fact that he had a Tyrell Queen helped out Renlys claim, by telling other houses of this great regal alliance. 

She was not a Queen till Mace crowned him. There is no(successful) rebellion with out Mace acting as kingmaker and there is no crown without Renly agreeing to Mace's terms. What we have here is a mutually beneficial deal, it is not something that Renly conned the simple minded Mace into doing.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Honor is a weird word. Ya know, it's a horse. It can mean anything. I intended it to mean just and lawful. And yeah Stannis is known for that, as the quotes I provided stated.

No, he is not known for that. Ned is, many characters point out how especially honorable he is. Stannis is not seen as any more or less honorable than the average noble. 

I agree he is known for being lawful, but I'm not sure how that would entice many lords, they enjoy being above the law not to be held accountable for it. This is one of the reasons why so few nobles want him as king. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The law says don't smuggle, obey Rhllor and don't sell Shireen to Lannister. Stannis answerd each crime with his sense of justice.

Yes, no one wants to be punished for helping Stannis. The idea that he could cut the fingers off someone who saved his life for crimes he committed in the past is a positive for most lords, especially ones who had made him starve for almost a year. 

they fear that he may want to get 'justice' for that. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because Ned too is an idiot (I'd say smarter then Mace)

neither are idiots. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like all of it.

lol, not all

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

He would replace some positions sure, like coins and whispers,

and Hand. he would have replaced most of the council, that is not a lie, that is a hard cold truth. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

but I think ships and Barri are safe.

he is the master of ships, are you under the impression that the king would have served as Master of Ships?

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Rock would rise alone.

blatantly untrue, you don't think Balon would also have rebelled? 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis forgave and pardaond Tyrell bannermen.

only because he needed them, he was sickened by it. his own words. 

why didn't Mace accept any of his two offers? 

why did he kill and imprison Florent men at Bitterbridge? 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The realm will bleed no matter what, Petyr guaranteed. 

so no lie. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

When Mace turns down Stannks twice it's after Renly, but if Renly swore fealty to Stannis...

then Mace would never have married his daughter to him and either remained neutral or negotiated with another faction

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea. Ned was a good commander, good father and uncle too. When it came to KL we see his true colors. The man was not intelligent.

sure he was. please tell me what defines intelligence for you? 

please give examples of Ned being, in your words, an idiot? 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis didn't want them fighting by his side, he couldn't fathom Robert winning their loyalty.

exactly, his first response is to punish potential allies, 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He pardoned the lords who served Renly.

he had no choice, his entire plan was to steal Renly's host. in his own words it sickened him. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

He's got a grudge, he just doesn't let that interfere with his duty. 

maybe, but that does not mean that is how others perceive him.you are confusing what Stannis may or may not have done with how he is perceived among the rest of Westeros

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who's belief? Davos was a criminal, of course he got punished.

he saved Stannis' life. most people find what Stannis did to be bizarre. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Florent answered Stannis' call. He made him hand. If Mace was there, he'd probably get the gig.

Florent was his in law. He made one Florent his Castellan, another his Admiral and another his Hand. This is exactly the influence that would have factored in the Tyrells being against Stannis, the others being his unwillingness to compromise and his holding grudges. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The best ones? We hear them complain because we know Florents. Not many other Reach Families in the story

yeah, we do. Tarly, Hightower, Rowan, Oakheart, Fossoway, Merryweather, Redwyne...

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Theyre a threat because their Stannis' most loyal men. 

also because of their designs on Highgarden. they were a threat before Stannis declared himself king

"Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place," he told her afterward. "My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Appearances. Renly was wondering if Doran would answer his call, Stark too. In order to build alliances other countries like to make sure your looking strong.

Stark had already turned him down. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

They sacked Kingslanding and are the Kingslayer and the Imp.

kings landing is in the Crownlands, it has nothing to do with the Tyrells

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Renly was planning on using Margery to entice Robert from Cersei.

of course. being in-laws to the king makes a house the most influential in the realm. when the seymours, howards and boelyns all tried to entice Henry VIII it was not our of hatred for the Queen's family, it was for ambition. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

There was animosity. 

no, not really. you are confusing ambition with animosity much like you have confused greed with idiocy. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Loras wanted revenge on Gregor, that's something.

against Gregor Clegane. he was hugely thankful for the other Joffrey's dog for saving his life. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

It was mostly just Riverlanders Northerners and Doran.  No Greyjoy  or Arryn 

No Robert Arryn  is named, you might want to read it again. And we have no idea if the Greyjoys were not named as we are told So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a whole flock of ravens to send out these commands.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM, Bernie Mac said:

otally agree, certainly weird. 

Not really given their context I believe. I mean  Margary was around Loras' when she married Renly and Lyanna was probably 16 when she ran away with Rheagar. 

 

On May 29, 2018 at 1:34 PM, Bernie Mac said:

and Ned does not disagree, just that his honour would not allow it. Littlefinger's comments are actually supported by Stannis himself

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends.

 

The last quote seems Stannis is simply being practical not vengeful.

[Bernie Mac]

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not really given their context I believe. I mean  Margary was around Loras' when she married Renly and Lyanna was probably 16 when she ran away with Rheagar. 

i'm pretty sure he is not saying the age is weird but that Renly having an ongoing relationship with one sibling and marrying the other is, which it is regardless of Renly's sexuality. 

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

The last quote seems Stannis is simply being practical not vengeful.

Right, and his idea of practicality is to punish those who have wronged them before they get a chance to do so again, it is to both punish and reward people who save his life. There are not exactly attributes that are going to win him allies who were once his enemies as the possibility is that once he is in power he will set about punishing those who he believed wronged him. 

Whether the above is true or not, that seems to be the perception much of Westeros has on him and is probably the key reason why he was the least supported king at the start of the series. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 31, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

ure he is not saying the age is weird but that Renly having an ongoing relationship with one sibling and marrying the other is, which it is regardless of Renly's sexuality. 

Quote

I got he was referring to age hench asking when did they start hooking up; truth be told to it seems improper to speculate on the meaning of someone's words when we've the chance for clarification; so @Hugorfonics what did you mean?

On May 31, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Right, and his idea of practicality is to punish those who have wronged them before they get a chance to do so again, it is to both punish and reward people who save his life.

You make this sound far more draconian than it is in my opinion. Locking up and keeping their hands away from POWs is completely normal procedure in times of war; all competent military leaders don't/all should not trust such prisoners won't take the first chance they have to damage their captor  and/or escape.  now true  there is some protocol on how nobility should be treated once in captivity(which btw I don't know if any of the men in Robert's custody could be deemed low in enough to justify placing them in a dungeon without at least an attempt at a break out). And the punish for Davios' crimes was small and the reward(on top of the of the actual payment Davos did request), was so great, it might as well have been a slap on the wrist.

Hell, I'd dare say Stannis treated Davos far better than most lords would treat the smuggler if they were Stannis' position, yes theyd pay for the wretch's food but that would be the overall extent of their gratitude.

On May 31, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

 

 Whether the above is true or not, that seems to be the perception much of Westeros has on him and is probably the key reason why he was the least supported king at the start of the series. 

Agreed. He's a harsh angry bitter man and was known to be merciless at the start of series; which is why when he shouted "I am not without mercy", Catelyn scoffed.

And he's a heathen whose basiclly declared the new red god the new divinity(who likes human sacrifices, the more noble the better), of westeroes; that alone would be enough to turn many lords against him, and likely his allowance of his followers to burn godswoods would likely help lose the north should he take it.