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Azor Ahai is a hero, not a villain


Sea Dragon

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I have been reading a lot here the last few days but wasn't able to comment much. One thing that I read a few times over again is that people are saying Azor Ahai was a bad guy or villain or whatever word you want to use. I disagree. He was a hero that had to do what was necessary to save the day. His wife, Nissa Nissa, knew this and that is why she gave herself to his flames. Azor Ahai was not a bad guy or villain.

I believe that Queen Danaerys Stormborn is Azor Ahai come again. She birthed the dragons and follows the rest of the story. I am going to paste here what the wiki says about Azor Ahai to make it easier. 

I think Danaerys and Jon and Arya will marry and they will be Azor Ahai and his savior swords together because Azor Ahai did not fight alone. Jon already gave Arya a sword and Danaerys has Drogon. 

Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword.[3] He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over.

The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.[3]

The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.[3]

Although he had Lightbringer, Azor Ahai did not fight alone.[5] The Jade Compendium mentions that when the hero thrust the blade through a monster, the creature burst into flame.[6]

It is unknown if Azor Ahai is connected with the legend of the last hero, who lived during the Long Night and helped to defeat the Others.

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So the kings mentioned by James Cooper's theory farther down (or farther up) the message boards each played Azor Ahai.  Like actors playing a part except they are destined for the role and had no need to audition.  James Cooper could be right: the guys went mad with grief, and killed their wives in desperation.  I mean, food had to be scarce during the long darkness and many starved to death.  Things must have been bad indeed if kings had to wear broken down and moldy clothing.  Maybe they were heroes but even the strongest person can break down from too much hardship.  Take Theon for example.

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3 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

So the kings mentioned by James Cooper's theory farther down (or farther up) the message boards each played Azor Ahai.  Like actors playing a part except they are destined for the role and had no need to audition.  James Cooper could be right: the guys went mad with grief, and killed their wives in desperation.  I mean, food had to be scarce during the long darkness and many starved to death.  Things must have been bad indeed if kings had to wear broken down and moldy clothing.  Maybe they were heroes but even the strongest person can break down from too much hardship.  Take Theon for example.

I will read more of the James Cooper theory. Thanks you. 

I also think that Nissa Nissa was selfless and she did what she had to for the greater good. I mean, we see Danaerys do that lots of times with Drogo, Rhaego and even herself. Maybe the new Azor Ahai is not exactly the same but close enough. 

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5 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

I will read more of the James Cooper theory. Thanks you. 

I also think that Nissa Nissa was selfless and she did what she had to for the greater good. I mean, we see Danaerys do that lots of times with Drogo, Rhaego and even herself. Maybe the new Azor Ahai is not exactly the same but close enough. 

Well, Dany is very different.  The first female Azor Ahai.  She sacrificed her husband, took his life.  It was an act of kindness but whose to say the other Azor Ahai of thousands of years ago didn't do the same to spare his wife from something worse.  An act of madness on his part or an act of kindness.  Difficult to say.  

There will be many heroes and many villains in the story.  I think Azor Ahai is a hero too.  She will have a leadership role.  But there will be other heroes, like The Last Hero(Bran) who will play an equally large role, at least in the north.  Most heroes will be unsung and just die, like Jon, Jorah, Bloodraven, and Samwell.  That's just my own opinion on what may happen though.

 

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17 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

I have been reading a lot here the last few days but wasn't able to comment much. One thing that I read a few times over again is that people are saying Azor Ahai was a bad guy or villain or whatever word you want to use. I disagree. He was a hero that had to do what was necessary to save the day. His wife, Nissa Nissa, knew this and that is why she gave herself to his flames. Azor Ahai was not a bad guy or villain.

I believe that Queen Danaerys Stormborn is Azor Ahai come again. She birthed the dragons and follows the rest of the story. I am going to paste here what the wiki says about Azor Ahai to make it easier. 

I think the story is metaphorical or misunderstood at the very least, and agree that I don't see them being evil.

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I think Danaerys and Jon and Arya will marry and they will be Azor Ahai and his savior swords together because Azor Ahai did not fight alone. Jon already gave Arya a sword and Danaerys has Drogon. 

I seriously thought I was the only one who believed this! (Don't forget that if you follow Rheagars marriage/child attempts Jon is also a lightbringer sword, who is destined to fight beside Dany with all her Azor Ahi reborn symbolism, but her dragons also make her, as their mother/rider a lightbringer. And Jons Nissa Nissa was when he sacrificed his (wife) duty for love (Arya) according to Maester Aemon. I was reading some mythology and one goddess I read was linked to trees, wolves, nature and the moon and fighting the un-dead (all men must die sounds like opposed to un-dead to me) I thought that is so Arya, then the article went and said she was commonly known as lightbringer. Then I thought of needle, and how Syrio said "boy, girl doesn't matter you are a sword." Not sure what/who her Nissa Nissa is, her identity? but she never really lost that... her pack? she did leave them behind. Or maybe she hasn't done it yet, could be a sacrifice is needed to regain her identity.

EDIT: I forgot, Dany AA Sword, Jon PP Sheild, Arya (LH- Harwin =horse, hound is the hound, lost her sword, lost all her companions and the house of BW does have some children links, and they are helping her now that she is all alone) going by Cat so she is the Dagger. Then maybe Bran, Tyrion and Sam are the three heads AKA the brains to these other guys brawn.  

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Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword.[3] He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over.

The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.[3]

The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.[3]

Although he had Lightbringer, Azor Ahai did not fight alone.[5] The Jade Compendium mentions that when the hero thrust the blade through a monster, the creature burst into flame.[6]

It won't split the box, sorry. This part always made me think of Bran being married to the trees implying that heart trees are wives of  a sort. I often wondered if Jon or Arya stabbing the tree, that is full of kings blood from all the dead kings of winter, might light up a sword, or infuse the blade with the power of the dead kings granting someone the ability to wield the power  of the north or something like that. Especially given that Ice is now red, and the red sword of hero's and the last hero all seem linked in their symbolism. 

It is unknown if Azor Ahai is connected with the legend of the last hero, who lived during the Long Night and helped to defeat the Others.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, I was just so surprised to see someone else who saw those three together I had to reply.

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18 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

I have been reading a lot here the last few days but wasn't able to comment much. One thing that I read a few times over again is that people are saying Azor Ahai was a bad guy or villain or whatever word you want to use. I disagree. He was a hero that had to do what was necessary to save the day. His wife, Nissa Nissa, knew this and that is why she gave herself to his flames. Azor Ahai was not a bad guy or villain.

I believe that Queen Danaerys Stormborn is Azor Ahai come again. She birthed the dragons and follows the rest of the story. I am going to paste here what the wiki says about Azor Ahai to make it easier. 

I think Danaerys and Jon and Arya will marry and they will be Azor Ahai and his savior swords together because Azor Ahai did not fight alone. Jon already gave Arya a sword and Danaerys has Drogon. 

Darkness lay over the world and a hero, Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword.[3] He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water, the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over.

The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered.[3]

The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.[3]

Although he had Lightbringer, Azor Ahai did not fight alone.[5] The Jade Compendium mentions that when the hero thrust the blade through a monster, the creature burst into flame.[6]

It is unknown if Azor Ahai is connected with the legend of the last hero, who lived during the Long Night and helped to defeat the Others.

There may be three riders but the gender mix is not what you are proposing.  Dany is Aegon the Conqueror. She is the dominant dragon.  The rider mix will be Dany and two men.  The other two riders do not have to be Targaryens.  Dany on Drogon, Griff on Rhaegal, and probably Tyrion on Viserion.  

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3 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

There may be three riders but the gender mix is not what you are proposing.  Dany is Aegon the Conqueror. She is the dominant dragon.  The rider mix will be Dany and two men.  The other two riders do not have to be Targaryens.  Dany on Drogon, Griff on Rhaegal, and probably Tyrion on Viserion.  

Women are empowered in this story.  The head of the dragon should be Daenerys instead of a man.  

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16 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

There may be three riders but the gender mix is not what you are proposing.  Dany is Aegon the Conqueror. She is the dominant dragon.  The rider mix will be Dany and two men.  The other two riders do not have to be Targaryens.  Dany on Drogon, Griff on Rhaegal, and probably Tyrion on Viserion.  

 

12 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Women are empowered in this story.  The head of the dragon should be Daenerys instead of a man.  

Azor Ahi reborn doesn't need to be a dragon rider. This dragon rider thing, and it being two men came from Jorah, it's not in the prophecy at all. And yes George is into men and women being portrayed as EQUAL not women should rule the world and men suck. He's showing that a woman can be hard and cruel and a man can be gentle and kind. He's showing Dany the warior and Jon the peace maker. Arya the assassin and Sam the pacifist who loves to sing and dance. When the trope is to only show the opposite. Jon being one of multiple Azor Ahi characters doesn't mean anything for Dany's arc.

If you look at those three it's not that Jon is the leader, or better. They are three equals working together, each with a different skill set. And news flash people, Dany being a warior, Arya an assassin and Jon the one who binds them together doesn't detract from Dany or Arya. It's still two strong women to one man. Why do you want Dany to be the main head but need the help if two men? How does that empower women? Doesn't the one guy who's shown to view women as equal seeking the help of two women do more than to show how women have value than the inverse if you set aside your I want Dany to rule the world bias? How does Dany birthing actual dragons and Jon birthing the line of Dragons, as in Targaryens lessen Dany's role? Arya is linked to the moon, the moon is shown as a reflection (see looks like) of the sun. Sun is man, moon is woman. Who looks like Jon? Ghost searches for Jon in a wolf dream and thinks of him as the sun, and thinks of hiding from the moon (and since he took a vow of celibacy that seems pretty accurate). Jon is doing the same things as Dany except his arc is metaphorical. That doesn't detract from Dany! I'm so sick of Dany fans saying Jon should die so she can rule or Dany should be the main head/ruler/dragon because she's a girl.

Being the ruler in the end means doing all the sorts of things Sansa was raised to do. The things Jon does and loves, like planning weddings, hosting feasts and hearing the concerns of the small folk (Read those chapters from dance, him mingling with the Free folk and planning/attending the wedding is one of the first times he's been shown as happy since he left home). The sorts of stuff Dany doesn't enjoy (she describes court as tedious and boring and thinks about letting Hizdar do it for her, Hizdar!!! She gripes about the wedding planning etc.). She wants a home and family. If Jon dies and she rules alone she'd be miserable. Why do people want this? Yes, she is Aegon the conqueror come again and do you remember how his story ended? He lived on dragon stone and let the other two rule. Robert was a conqueror, how did ruling go for him?

14 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

Azor Ahai is the same dude who stabs his wife in the chest for a magic sword. Not exactly man of the year. 

 

10 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Azor Ahai is a hero to the humans.  

I think your are both right. If the story is literal, he would be awful. But, we are shown how the stories told of what people in other locations do is almost always taken out of context and twisted. Add to that, thousands of years and the fact that it got mixed up with prophecy, that is shown to almost always be metaphorical, and it's easy to see how he could be a hero whose actions got misunderstood and twisted. Or he was the villain whose actions triggered the long night and someone else was the hero. I can see arguments for both being valid and suspect reality is in the middle somewhere.

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On 5/29/2018 at 11:40 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Well, Dany is very different.  The first female Azor Ahai.  She sacrificed her husband, took his life.  It was an act of kindness but whose to say the other Azor Ahai of thousands of years ago didn't do the same to spare his wife from something worse.  An act of madness on his part or an act of kindness.  Difficult to say.  

 

 

An act of kindness that history misinterpreted as a sacrifice.  Like the mothers smothering their newborn babes during the long night.  Dany literally took the life of her comatose husband, her sun and stars.  It fits with the spirit of the story.  His life paid for the birth of her dragons.  

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Hero and Villian are not mutually exclusive...

The last hero fought with a sword of dragon steel. Was this Azhor Ahai? 

Because the last hero, with his dog (wolf?) and twelve companions, sought out the Children of the Forrest in the hopes that their magic would save what the armies of men had lost... giving us reason to doubt the story of the battle for the dawn and the founding of the Nights Watch being a great victory which ended the long night.

Or at least the order of events...

The Nights king was said to be the thirteenth lord commander (is this because of the last hero’s twelve companions?) who saw a corpse bride from the Wall and loved her... was the corpse bride Nissa Nissa? Was the cost of his sword too great and did he, fearing nothing, find his love and return her to life?

Might our hero also be our villain?

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On May 30, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Azarial said:

 

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I think Danaerys and Jon and Arya will marry and they will be Azor Ahai and his savior swords together because Azor Ahai did not fight alone. Jon already gave Arya a sword and Danaerys has Drogon. 

I seriously thought I was the only one who believed this! (Don't forget that if you follow Rheagars marriage/child attempts Jon is also a lightbringer sword, who is destined to fight beside Dany with all her Azor Ahi reborn symbolism, but her dragons also make her, as their mother/rider a lightbringer. And Jons Nissa Nissa was when he sacrificed his (wife) duty for love (Arya) according to Maester Aemon. I was reading some mythology and one goddess I read was linked to trees, wolves, nature and the moon and fighting the un-dead (all men must die sounds like opposed to un-dead to me) I thought that is so Arya, then the article went and said she was commonly known as lightbringer. Then I thought of needle, and how Syrio said "boy, girl doesn't matter you are a sword." Not sure what/who her Nissa Nissa is, her identity? but she never really lost that... her pack? she did leave them behind. Or maybe she hasn't done it yet, could be a sacrifice is needed to regain her identity.

Wow, this is so cool to read someone else who thinks Danaerys and Jon and Arya will be the new trio like we see so many Targaryens do. LOL maybe not so many, but some important ones. 

It is so obvious that Arya is infatuated with Jon and he with her and it will be romantic when they reunite. Just as everything Jon and Danaerys do will unite them because they have sooo much in common. 

I guess this is why I think all the Azor Ahai fan talk about him being a villain is kinda wrong in an off way. 

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On June 5, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Tygett Lannister said:

No such thing as heros and villains in these books.

I disagree. Its obvious people like Tywin and Gregor Clegane and Ramsay and others like them are villains. The same is true for the heroes. They may be more grey or whatever but they are going to be "clean" heroes in the end. 

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  • 3 months later...

Azor Ahai is Dany with a prophecy twist. Tolkien did it in the Hobbit. The prophecy for the return of Thorin was hailed as a hero who would make the lakes shine and burn and the rivers run gold. It was actually Smaug doing that, setting Lake Town on fire. When Smaug flies out to attack, people think he's a bright shining light:

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“Before long, so great was his speed, they could see him as a spark of fire rushing towards them and growing ever huger and more bright, and not the most foolish doubted that the prophecies had gone rather wrong.” - The Hobbit, Fire and Water

That last line says it all.

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You know, Dany might be okay with incest and polyamory with two husbands or whatever, but you guys are dreaming if you think Jon or Arya will go for a threesome  They're Starks!  What would Ned say?   Jon will NOT be pleased Dany is his aunt, he will not get over it quickly, if at all.  Arya would rather put Needle in him than marry him if He's already married to Dany.  Dany herself will likely shudder at the thought despite being a Targ, and good God, poor Jon, can you just picture him in wedded bliss to both those two strong characters?  And one of them's an assassin?

Jon and his harem fly happily away into the sunset.  The end. 

(I think I might be reading a different book.)

Sorry for the sarcasm, the idea makes me shudder too.  Call me conservative in this if nothing else.

I like reading all the Azor Ahai theories but no one knows if He's hero or villain.  My own thought is he was needed to stop the Others and the original Long Night but then - because I believe he or child was the first Valyrian - he and his descendants became a huge problem for humanity and the planet once they've moved to Essos and the 14 Flames and become slavers and conquerors.  So a purposeful hero and inadvertent  villain both.  That story re AA reads like a fable so it's easy to fill in with whatever you want as long as it's consistent.

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2 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

but you guys are dreaming if you think Jon or Arya will go for a threesome  They're Starks

Not to mention Jon loves Arya as his little sister, and Arya loves Jon as her big brother. That's it. 

And for something like this to happen, Jon would have to not only become ok w/ incest, but also a paedo since his beloved little sister is 11. :ack:

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On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:08 PM, Sea Dragon said:

I think Danaerys and Jon and Arya will marry

 

I'm sorry but ew. There is no indication at all about this horrible threesome. Arya and Jon don't see each other that way and have NEVER thought about each other that way.

If this ever (and it won't) becomes a thing in the books, it'll have been such a massive let down that I'd throw the books right in the trash.

I don't think Dany will marry two other people. She will end in a monogamous marriage. The dragon has three heads can also mean her and two strong allies (or even dragon riders).

Arya may even die during the long night. There IS foreshadowing about that.

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