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U.S. Politics: He's an Idiot, Plain and Simple


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Justin Trudeau Says There Was Almost a NAFTA Deal. Then Mike Pence Called Him With an Insane Demand.

https://slate.com/business/2018/05/trump-and-nafta-negotiations-arent-going-well-according-to-this-justin-trudeau-story.html

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Trudeau told reporters that he thought negotiations over NAFTA were going well enough that last week he suggested a in-person meeting with Trump and Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto in Washington to hammer out a final deal. “We already had the bones of a very good agreement for all parties, and I thought it might be opportune for all of us to sit down for a few hours and discuss it,” he said. On Tuesday, Vice President Mike Pence called to say, sure, the White House would host the meeting, but only if Trudeau agreed in advance to add a five-year sunset clause to NAFTA, meaning that the pact would expire after five years unless the U.S., Canada, and Mexico all agreed to renew it. “So I answered that, unfortunately, if that was a precondition to our visit, I was unable to accept — and so we did not go to Washington for that day of negotiations.”

 

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3 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

The conservatism in the American mindset that leads to things like keeping this system and the metric system is so annoying I'm genuinely winding myself up a little even thinking about it. 

The thing is, if you only talk about this issue when it negatively effects you, you just look like an opportunist. An American will have to tell me how invested the Democrats were in electoral reform before the last election. I know that it's always a fucking nightmare trying to get the public interested in it as an issue.

It's more constitutional design that keeps the electoral college around rather than America's "conservative" mindset.  And the National Popular Vote effort to circumvent the amendment process has been around since Bush v Gore.  Problem is red states don't want to sign on because the electoral college favors their party, and swing states don't want to sign on because they're the ones that enjoy disproportionate attention and influence due to the EC.

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1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

No I haven't, I've posted a link to a video which shows how precise his use of language is, amongst other things. you ignoring my evidence isn't the same as me not presenting it. Yes, they pointed it out, but it's factually untrue. 

Idiots can't manipulate language like that. 

I did watch the video.  I was not, and still am not, impressed.  You and the narrator seem to be projecting a whole lot of purpose and craft onto Trump's allegedly "manipulated language," searching for skill and purpose in a pile of bullshit comparable to any by a middle schooler who hasn't prepared their assignment and muddles through anyway.  This doesn't really come across as skillfull language manipulation.   I guess I'm not seeing "intelligence" here.  It's more like he is ill informed and shameless he just spews huckster bullshit.  How is that evidence of his intelligence?   Like, even a pug can be trained to not shit in the house (though it seems Trump even struggles with that at times).

I thought that video fell under the vague assertion of being adept at "manipulating media and opponents" you had stated.  You kept going back to the idea that because he won he must be smart (seemingly abandoning this line of "evidence"), so it seemed that was the crux of your argument.

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Exactly! That's exactly my point! Identity politics isn't our thing. It's their thing. You're playing their game. You can't criticise me for not arguing with right wing people, there are hardly any on here. Trust me, I come from a conservative area, I spend most of my life arguing with right wing people. You say identity politics is largely a white, conservative thing, so do you support it?

You certainly did not make the point that IP only works for white people in that post.   

I'm not sure why you think I'm criticizing you for not arguing with right wingers here.  I criticized the way you seem to be understanding what IP is, and that the way you use that term is straight out of the right wing liberal boogeyman playbook.

I do support IP, as I'll explain below.  

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Well most people want the same thing. Good education for their children, access to modern healthcare, safe streets, opportunities in work, etc. None of this depends of whether you're male, female, black, white, gay, straight, whatever. I know it sounds awfully twee, but we're all human beings first and foremost, and I think that principle is absolutely core to the philosophy of liberalism that I support. I felt Bernie expressed this well. If you take people out of poverty, you will be disproportionately helping black people. 

There's a block of 50 houses.   All could use cosmetic repairs.  40 need varying degrees of structural repairs.   20 of those 40 are also on fire.    The helpful people in charge of repairs set out to make those cosmetic repairs and some of the minor structural ones.  Problems solved, right?

That's what IP is really about-- we're not all facing exactly the same problems in exactly the same way.   It's not about identity for identity sake, which is how the fragiles seem to be taking it-- as a benediction of their specialness as white christians.  Doing minor foundation repair doesn't put the fire out of the houses that are burning or the ones collapsing to the ground.   Like when you get a cavity, the dentist doesn't tell you to just make sure you brush and practice good oral hygeine, because all teeth matter, right?  

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Honestly, I don't know. I'm not American. Trump obviously used sexist language as a tactic to demean Hilary. How successful was it? I don't know. Sexism is difficult. Women are referred to as a minority, but they aren't a real minority. If you equally annoy black people but appeal to white people, you lose one vote and gain three. With gender, it's 50/50, and a lot of conservative people appeared to genuinely dislike his rhetoric. And a lot of male liberals genuinely wanted to see a female President. But I'd like to learn more about this issue. What I am sure about is that the USA could elect a female leader. Pakistan have done it, the Americans can do it. Sexism may have contributed significantly to his win, but there is no way I'm buying the line that she was doomed from the start based on her gender. 

You're confusing the idea of minorities and groups subject to discrimination historically.  A lot of American women are also misogynist, because for some, they (erroneously) see the system of sexism as one they benefit from.  And race trumps gender.

Sexism most certainly had a huge role in Trump's win.  He did demean Hillary, but that's hardly the sexism that carried him to victory.  It's in the fact that a less than mediocre, emotional trainwreck, openly grifting male liar is seen as less emotional, honest and competent than his infinitely more qualified female opponent.  It's in the "Trump that Bitch" was proudly adopted war cry of his mouthbreather army.  

ETA: sooooo- as long as sexism plays a significant role in politics it makes sense for people to talk about it.

This is all getting away from the initial issue, which is whether Trump is stupid.   And yes, to put it in the words of his former Sec of State, he is a "fucking moron."  I get why you (and others, including a lot of reporters and journalists) want to believe there's something more there.  It's horrifying and disheartening that such an irredeemable pile of shit is a world leader, in charge of things that have real consequences for actual people.  And it's horrifying and disheartening that all these people actually pulled the lever for said irredeemable pile of shit.

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18 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

Any of you really smart economy types have any good breakdowns of a trade war? My shower head is having low pressure and I need to rev the engine.

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I've been following the news and this thread sporadically, but with all these tarrifs and now refusals to be pushed around...

I'm not saying it's possible, at least directly, but it boggles my mind that a significant portion, if not the entire world, should be giving thought to enacting a regime change in AMERICA.

I mean, I thought the GWs presidency was bad... But Trump's?

Words. Fucking. Fail. 

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23 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I've been following the news and this thread sporadically, but with all these tarrifs and now refusals to be pushed around...

I'm not saying it's possible, at least directly, but it boggles my mind that a significant portion, if not the entire world, should be giving thought to enacting a regime change in AMERICA.

Every accusation that was used to start the Iraq war actually applies to the US so...

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Dark Money in the US rethug elections ... Why did Greitens finally resign from the Missouri governorship?  He was determined to hang on, no matter what, even if he had to barricade the state house against the world.  But! as reported by the local Missouri newspaper --

https://www.news-leader.com/story/opinion/contributors/2018/05/30/greitens-abrupt-resignation-should-make-us-fear-dark-money/654845002/

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... his resignation came just hours after a Cole County judge ruled that Greitens would have to respond to subpoenas seeking information about his political campaign and from A New Missouri Inc., the secretive nonprofit formed by his campaign aides to advocate for his agenda. 

A day later, a St. Louis prosecutor dropped the investigation. 

The man who seemed prepared to fight until the end, regardless of what we discovered about sexual misconduct, changed his tune almost immediately under the threat that we might all find out who’s behind the money. And that should scare us. 

Whatever information is contained in those campaign finance documents is apparently far worse than whatever occurred with a woman in St. Louis, actions which are already unfathomable to many of us.

 

 How many elections, folks, how many?

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5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Every accusation that was used to start the Iraq war actually applies to the US so...

It's ridiculous, right? 

I'm a middle aged man now. I always imagined that as I slid into my dottage that my stressors would be local. I got two daughters I absolutely adore, and instead of worrying about doing the best I can for their day to day I'm growing increasingly concerned at what the future might look like for my them. 

My ten year old could stump Trump in a debate, and this clutzy orange fuck, with his influencers and enablers, is groping the world into a different order.

 

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11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Dark Money in the US rethug elections ... Why did Greitens finally resign from the Missouri governorship?  He was determined to hang on, no matter what, even if he had to barricade the state house against the world.  But! as reported by the local Missouri newspaper --

https://www.news-leader.com/story/opinion/contributors/2018/05/30/greitens-abrupt-resignation-should-make-us-fear-dark-money/654845002/

 How many elections, folks, how many?

The Republicans will soon just get Fox News to change the tune for them: that taking money from donors, even criminal ones, or Vladimir Putin, is just a sign of clever campaigning. Besides, Crooked Shillary took money from someone overseas once and the MSM never talks about that because she's a liberal and there's a double-standard.

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11 hours ago, Notone said:

Basically, yes. However I feel inclined to point out, that anti-semitism wasn't an early 20th century German invention. Anti-semitism had been around continental Europe for centuries. Just look at some writing of Martin Luther for instance. Or look into French history, one of the key events there was the Dreyfus affair. Eastern Europe wasn't a particularly happy place either. But there somebody with a more sound understanding of local history can probably give better examples for that. On a semi-related note, particularly the pretty blatant anti-semitism of Luther (and the holocaust) is something that I always have to think of, when I hear politicians use the phrase Judeo-Christian values/ethics/whatever, and it kinda makes me cringe a bit.

 

And thats all true. Even in the United States, in the 1930s there was a lot of anti-antisemitism. Back in those days right wingers used to call the New Deal, the Jew Deal.

But, that's kind of like pointing out that racism was around in the US before Trump ran for president. That too was true.

Both the Dumpster and Hitler, basically took something that was odious and made it even more so.

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8 hours ago, mankytoes said:

He also double talked in a way you can't get away with now- he spoke to workers and business owners and said totally contradictory things, but with less pervasive press coverage you could get away with that a lot more. No one can really know, but I don't think he was cynically trying to use anti semetism to his own ends- I think he really believed in it. 

And I think Trump really believes what he says or at least he does often.

It's true that Hitler sometimes changed his tune depending on his audience. Praising capitalism when he was speaking to industrialist and then throwing out a bone to socialism when he was speaking to workers. So he was a bit of a bullshitter, kind of like the Dumpster.

And despite today's greater media coverage, I think the Dumpster did get away with spewing some bullshit, or lots of it actually, since the media was evidently more concerned about Hillary's emails. Remember when talking about health care, Trump said he would come up with something "wonderful". I don't recall much the media calling bullshit on that one. And then of course, Trump  convinced at least some people that he was this really competent business guy, rather than some guy that just basically licensed out his name, then sat on his ass, and collected royalties, basically.

Anyway, both the Dumpster and Hitler, I guess, were are not with out some talents. Hitler did seemingly have a gift for oratory and public speaking, something that was noted by his army superiors, when during his last days they used to send him out to convince soldiers not to turn communist. But, as a head of state, leaving his evil intentions aside, he was pretty much a flamin' idiot.

And the Dumpster, well, he is first rate bullshitter, so I'll give him that one. But he's in his 70s now and he has been bullshitting for about 50 years or so now, so I guess it's not too surprising he got good at it. But other than being a bullshitter, there isn't much to him.

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1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

Give them another couple years of diplomacy before we start yellow caking and outing Calerie Planes.

ETA:best Valerie Plame autocorrect ever

That's awesome.

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2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

[insert thoughtful rant]

Bro!! Our Pony liege lord has requested a “really smart economy type[]” provide a thorough breakdown of a trade war just a few posts above your own! You are the smartiest economic type on this board; I respectfully submit that you are derelict in your duty as such! Ameliorate this immediately or suffer several bawdy, half-comprehensible quips from her liege henceforth.

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5 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Bro!! Our Pony liege lord has requested a “really smart economy type[]” provide a thorough breakdown of a trade war just a few posts above your own! You are the smartiest economic type on this board; I respectfully submit that you are derelict in your duty as such! Ameliorate this immediately or suffer several bawdy, half-comprehensible quips from her liege henceforth.

He's lucky I've been watching Platoon to get my spirits up.

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7 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

I did watch the video.  I was not, and still am not, impressed.  You and the narrator seem to be projecting a whole lot of purpose and craft onto Trump's allegedly "manipulated language," searching for skill and purpose in a pile of bullshit comparable to any by a middle schooler who hasn't prepared their assignment and muddles through anyway.  This doesn't really come across as skillfull language manipulation.   I guess I'm not seeing "intelligence" here.  It's more like he is ill informed and shameless he just spews huckster bullshit.  How is that evidence of his intelligence?   Like, even a pug can be trained to not shit in the house (though it seems Trump even struggles with that at times).

I thought that video fell under the vague assertion of being adept at "manipulating media and opponents" you had stated.  You kept going back to the idea that because he won he must be smart (seemingly abandoning this line of "evidence"), so it seemed that was the crux of your argument.

You certainly did not make the point that IP only works for white people in that post.   

I'm not sure why you think I'm criticizing you for not arguing with right wingers here.  I criticized the way you seem to be understanding what IP is, and that the way you use that term is straight out of the right wing liberal boogeyman playbook.

I do support IP, as I'll explain below.  

There's a block of 50 houses.   All could use cosmetic repairs.  40 need varying degrees of structural repairs.   20 of those 40 are also on fire.    The helpful people in charge of repairs set out to make those cosmetic repairs and some of the minor structural ones.  Problems solved, right?

That's what IP is really about-- we're not all facing exactly the same problems in exactly the same way.   It's not about identity for identity sake, which is how the fragiles seem to be taking it-- as a benediction of their specialness as white christians.  Doing minor foundation repair doesn't put the fire out of the houses that are burning or the ones collapsing to the ground.   Like when you get a cavity, the dentist doesn't tell you to just make sure you brush and practice good oral hygeine, because all teeth matter, right?  

You're confusing the idea of minorities and groups subject to discrimination historically.  A lot of American women are also misogynist, because for some, they (erroneously) see the system of sexism as one they benefit from.  And race trumps gender.

Sexism most certainly had a huge role in Trump's win.  He did demean Hillary, but that's hardly the sexism that carried him to victory.  It's in the fact that a less than mediocre, emotional trainwreck, openly grifting male liar is seen as less emotional, honest and competent than his infinitely more qualified female opponent.  It's in the "Trump that Bitch" was proudly adopted war cry of his mouthbreather army.  

ETA: sooooo- as long as sexism plays a significant role in politics it makes sense for people to talk about it.

This is all getting away from the initial issue, which is whether Trump is stupid.   And yes, to put it in the words of his former Sec of State, he is a "fucking moron."  I get why you (and others, including a lot of reporters and journalists) want to believe there's something more there.  It's horrifying and disheartening that such an irredeemable pile of shit is a world leader, in charge of things that have real consequences for actual people.  And it's horrifying and disheartening that all these people actually pulled the lever for said irredeemable pile of shit.

If you notice, that video was made before the election, so it kind of destroys your argument that we’re only saying this after the fact, because he won. I did come to this conclusion before the election, but it was still too late.

So you’re saying only people from minority groups have deep lying issues, and white people only have superficial ones? Just not true from what I know. I guess your house analogy is treating different social groups as a house each, and that’s the problem, seeing people merely as “black, gay, Jew, woman”, whatever, not as individuals.

The idea that sexism must have been crucial as Trump was “more qualified” is one I’ve heard before, but it’s weak, became he beat a whole field of much more qualified Republican men. Fro omission, I assume you agree with me that people are wrong to say a woman couldn’t get elected President?

You're still mixing up the ideas of being “bad” and “stupid”. If he’s an “irredeemable piece of shit” that doesn’t make him an “idiot”, those are very different.

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1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

So you’re saying only people from minority groups have deep lying issues, and white people only have superficial ones? Just not true from what I know. I guess your house analogy is treating different social groups as a house each, and that’s the problem, seeing people merely as “black, gay, Jew, woman”, whatever, not as individuals.

I don't think anyone's saying that.  The entire idea of "identity politics" is preposterous.  In a two party system, each mainstream party is a coalition of interests, or if you prefer "identities."  This is how the American electoral system has always worked.  However, while the Dems have to galvanize a wide array of demographics, or "identities," it's' the GOP that has zeroed in on one identity - that of the dominant white male, which garners quite a bit of white female votes as well.  Identity politics is a bullshit red herring term that essentially means targeting, which campaigns have engaged in for time immemorial.

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

The idea that sexism must have been crucial as Trump was “more qualified” is one I’ve heard before, but it’s weak, became he beat a whole field of much more qualified Republican men. Fro omission, I assume you agree with me that people are wrong to say a woman couldn’t get elected President?

Sexism had an empirical effect on the 2016 presidential election results.  It's documented here, here, and here.  If you don't believe it, or are rushing to add caveats, that's your hangup.  Call your mother.

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

You're still mixing up the ideas of being “bad” and “stupid”. If he’s an “irredeemable piece of shit” that doesn’t make him an “idiot”, those are very different.

How about he's an idiotic irredeemable piece of shit?

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