U.S. Politics: He's an Idiot, Plain and Simple

[DMC]

I did most any drug outside heroin when I was a kid, but these bath salts confuse the fuck out of me.  *Shakes fist on my lawn*

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

Shit, now you've got me imagining 20 students eating the face off a kiddie Nazi

 

Have they cut funding for the D.A.R.E program yet?  Might be a fun way to fund this through existing financial channels.  My DARE instructor was a State Trooper (who sadly died in a hunting accident two years ago), he could probably have trained some elite bathsalts units with seized drugs and maybe instead of a k9 unit bring in crocodiles or wolverines or something cute like that.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I mean, the first instinct has to be towards a more educated population. One of my big policy ideas for years has been some form of political education. I think it's absurd that there is none. In a democracy, political power is supposed to lie with the people. Yet we don't give the people any knowledge of the political system, they have to work it out for themselves. This leaves people vulnerable to liars and panderers. This is especially relevant to issues of political reform, which in the USA would mean (I know I'm going on about it) electoral reform and constitutional reform. Whenever you survey voters, they just don't care about these issues. People interested in politics do, from all sides of the spectrum, but you need that level of knowledge to know why it's so important. 

Yeah this is entirely different from what you've been expressing for the past half-dozen pages.

[Jace, Extat]

15 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah this is entirely different from what you've been expressing for the past half-dozen pages.

Yeah, I was almost stunned speechless. Like, that's a coherent thought. I won't get into the merits of said thought, but it definitely was a thought.

[mankytoes]

17 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah this is entirely different from what you've been expressing for the past half-dozen pages.

Ok... I haven't been claiming to express every political view I hold. It isn't contradictory to anything I've been saying, is it? I don't really know what point you're making.

Anyway, do you agree with me? From the outside, America can feel quite contradictory. There is a earnestness about the democratic process that you don't get in England. Like (sorry for resorting to anecdote again, but this isn't my central argument) on my Facebook, I always see Americans at election enthusing about everyone getting out and voting in a way we don't. But voter turnout is poor by international standards- http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/21/u-s-voter-turnout-trails-most-developed-countries/

I know smart people who don't engage in politics because they say they don't understand it. And I always say, it really isn't the complicated, once you get through a bit of bullshit and jargon this is all very understandable to an average person. I feel that if we gave people just the basics in the state school system, they would feel able to build on that knowledge. 

1 minute ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

Yeah, I was almost stunned speechless. Like, that's a coherent thought. I won't get into the merits of said thought, but it definitely was a thought.

I do try, as much as I'd like to limit my posting to hilarious banter like you do. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

17 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Ok... I haven't been claiming to express every political view I hold. It isn't contradictory to anything I've been saying, is it? I don't really know what point you're making.

Anyway, do you agree with me? From the outside, America can feel quite contradictory. There is a earnestness about the democratic process that you don't get in England. Like (sorry for resorting to anecdote again, but this isn't my central argument) on my Facebook, I always see Americans at election enthusing about everyone getting out and voting in a way we don't. But voter turnout is poor by international standards- http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/21/u-s-voter-turnout-trails-most-developed-countries/

I know smart people who don't engage in politics because they say they don't understand it. And I always say, it really isn't the complicated, once you get through a bit of bullshit and jargon this is all very understandable to an average person. I feel that if we gave people just the basics in the state school system, they would feel able to build on that knowledge. 

I do try, as much as I'd like to limit my posting to hilarious banter like you do. 

That's not a contradiction.  The low voter turnout is THE fucking reason we get on everybody (why you see this shit on Facebook) about getting out and voting and why BOTH SIDES (zomg!!!) and emphasize turning out your base as a fundamental to electoral victory.

ETA: also, if you've been paying attention, the GOP has made a massive push to limit voter turnout of people of color.  It's like the second wave Jim Crow.  

Eta2: another reason for low voter turnout is that most Americans lead (on a relative world scale) cushy fucking lives thanks to military backed capitalism and centuries of colonialism and rapey imperialist policies.  When you strong arm the world into giving you resources for nothing and then selling them back overpriced manufactured goods you feel special and warm and just knowing the voting booth is out there hits you right in the feels.  

[mankytoes]

22 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Why bother with the truisim that most people aren't idiots or geniuses?  You need to post walls of text of rambling pseudo Trump defense to make sure we understand a fucking bell curve?  The function of your words matters.  What are you really doing?  

Voters don't care about issues or act rationally because, they are fucking dumb.  Dumb panicky animals.  

I think it was George Carlin who said "imagine the average person.  Average intelligence.  And then remember that half of the people out there are dumber than that."

I like the sentiment of an education in civics but I don't see that clearing the aforementioned stumbling block of idiots.

That's not a contradiction.  The low voter turnout is fucking reason we get on everybody (why you see this shit on Facebook) about getting out and voting and why BOTH SIDES (zomg!!!) emphasize turning out your base as a fundamental to electoral victory.

ETA: also, if you've been paying attention, the GOP has made a massive push to limit voter turnout of people of color.  It's like the second wave Jim Crow.  

Eta2: another reason for low voter turnout is that most Americans lead (on a relative world scale) cushy fucking lives thanks to military backed capitalism and centuries of colonialism and rapey imperialist policies.  When you strong arm the world into giving you resources for nothing and then selling them back overpriced manufactured goods you feel special and warm and just knowing the voting booth is out there hits you right in the feels.  

Because the Pony Empress said I was saying Trump was "some kind of genius", which of course I haven't said, presumably because I said he isn't an idiot. Just look at the context. Can anyone reply to me on here without preceding it with a load of aggressive questions?

Ok, fine, but I assume there are some democratically elected officials, current or historical, that you respect? So clearly, despite the negative instincts and irrationality that we all possess, the democratic process can lead to people who are competent and well qualified being elected to office. I don't want to derail this into opinions of Obama, but I feel Obama was a good, smart politician and a good President. I don't think Americans have got more stupid during his Presidency. So clearly, Americans, and the current generation of Americans, are capable of electing much better officials than Trump. So you have to go a bit further than just saying "there's nothing we can do because people are so dumb and bigoted". 

Well no, but I don't have any more immediate solutions, if you or anyone else does, I'm all ears. Unless I've missed it, no one else on this thread has suggested anything to improve this issue. And this is a great solution in at least one way- it's cheap. You only need to shift the curriculum a little.

Good point. I think it's a constant issue in politics, but I want to hear more from the non-voters, but almost by definition, they aren't engaged. It just feels like Americans see democracy as more central to their identity, so you'd expect them to see voting as a duty and an expression of that precious freedom (insert eagle). 

It feels like they're fighting a losing battle against changing demographics on that front, hopefully I'm not just being optimistic.

Hmm, not so sure about that. Aren't the people living less cushy lives the ones who are less likely to vote? 

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

 

Hmm, not so sure about that. Aren't the people living less cushy lives the ones who are less likely to vote? 

It's not a monolithic block of nonvoters, and who votes in each election changes.  There is voter disenfranchisement, whereby people are structurally prevented from voting, voter apathy, people who only vote in Presidential elections, etc.  The ones not living cushy lives are the ones most prevented from voting is probably the best way of describing your inquiry.

[Jace, Extat]

8 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

 

I do try, as much as I'd like to limit my posting to hilarious banter like you do. 

 

You think I'm hilarious? 

Kiddo, I have no beef with you. In fact, I find you somewhat difficult to place because you seem genuine. And Jace likes things that are genuine. Sometimes. Very rarely. Mostly never. Never.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, as I sense the idealism of youth about you. But your positions have to this point been poorly developed. Your delivery is fine, I'll grant you. At least until your resolve cracked there in the last day or so, but you're so preoccupied with making your point that you've yet to examine why you feel the need to do so.

It isn't my place to judge. But I'm gonna do it anyway. 

Something tickled that brain of yours. Maybe you read some halfassed sociology treatise, or saw an influential video like the one you linked a while back.

But more likely? More likely Jace thinks that you lay awake at night thinking about how you could do it too. How with a little luck and a whole lot of bullshit Mankeytoes could be the good guy version of Trump. A little yin that makes your yang feel almost like there's an answer somewhere just waiting to be found by the right person. 

But you know you couldn't do it, couldn't be as wantonly disgusting as Trump. Congratulations for that, by the way. But even though you're not a narcissist like the Dear Leader you want a bit of praise for your special thought, the little revelation that brought a spark to your eye. So here we are.

Now you tell me. Wanna go back to the 'banter'?

[mankytoes]

18 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

You think I'm hilarious? 

Kiddo, I have no beef with you. In fact, I find you somewhat difficult to place because you seem genuine. And Jace likes things that are genuine. Sometimes. Very rarely. Mostly never. Never.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, as I sense the idealism of youth about you. But your positions have to this point been poorly developed. Your delivery is fine, I'll grant you. At least until your resolve cracked there in the last day or so, but you're so preoccupied with making your point that you've yet to examine why you feel the need to do so.

It isn't my place to judge. But I'm gonna do it anyway. 

Something tickled that brain of yours. Maybe you read some halfassed sociology treatise, or saw an influential video like the one you linked a while back.

But more likely? More likely Jace thinks that you lay awake at night thinking about how you could do it too. How with a little luck and a whole lot of bullshit Mankeytoes could be the good guy version of Trump. A little yin that makes your yang feel almost like there's an answer somewhere just waiting to be found by the right person. 

But you know you couldn't do it, couldn't be as wantonly disgusting as Trump. Congratulations for that, by the way. But even though you're not a narcissist like the Dear Leader you want a bit of praise for your special thought, the little revelation that brought a spark to your eye. So here we are.

Now you tell me. Wanna go back to the 'banter'?

I do find you funny quite a lot of the time, yeah, but I know that humour can also be utilised to avoid having to actually argue a point, in fact a lot of politicians try this, and it's a little frustrating when you use it instead of, as opposed to in addition to, actually arguing the toss. 

No, I appreciate a thoughtful reply, a lot of what people say to me on here is so reactionary. Honestly, I suspected this line of argument would rub people up the wrong way. The election of Trump was humiliating, and people do not react well to being humiliated. 

No, I couldn't do it. I'm not likeable enough. You think I'm unpopular on here, well I'm on a football (soccer) forum, and I'm even more unpopular there, as the evil leftie. I'm contrarian by nature. If I find I agree with someone on a lot, I'll try and find an issue of contention. I couldn't be a poltician. 

I mean, I'm human, I'm not immune to flattery, really I want debate. People on here seem more keen to talk about me  than my ideas, which is a little frustrating. I want a bit more feedback from actual, real life yankees. I don't mind insults to, but Americans aren't even good at those. 

Of course, you can be a funny person and that isn't a quality that should ever be overused. And as you say, I do have an ego, and I am a fascinating subject of conversation, but I'd really rather talk about ideas than people. So my preference would be banter mixed with debate. 

And of course, don't always feel the need for that long a response when someone gives you a little dig back 

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I do find you funny quite a lot of the time, yeah, but I know that humour can also be utilised to avoid having to actually argue a point, in fact a lot of politicians try this, and it's a little frustrating when you use it instead of, as opposed to in addition to, actually arguing the toss. 

No, I appreciate a thoughtful reply, a lot of what people say to me on here is so reactionary. Honestly, I suspected this line of argument would rub people up the wrong way. The election of Trump was humiliating, and people do not react well to being humiliated. 

No, I couldn't do it. I'm not likeable enough. You think I'm unpopular on here, well I'm on a football (soccer) forum, and I'm even more unpopular there, as the evil leftie. I'm contrarian by nature. If I find I agree with someone on a lot, I'll try and find an issue of contention. I couldn't be a poltician. 

I mean, I'm human, I'm not immune to flattery, really I want debate. People on here seem more keen to talk about me  than my ideas, which is a little frustrating. I want a bit more feedback from actual, real life yankees. I don't mind insults to, but Americans aren't even good at those. 

Of course, you can be a funny person and that isn't a quality that should ever be overused. And as you say, I do have an ego, and I am a fascinating subject of conversation, but I'd really rather talk about ideas than people. So my preference would be banter mixed with debate. 

And of course, don't always feel the need for that long a response when someone gives you a little dig back 

We ain't digging yet, mate. Your argument was weighed. It was measured. It was found wanting.

Your attempts to force it further are what brought the wolves to your door, when I grew tired of watching our friends bash their head against the border wall you've erected to protect the thing.

It does seem as though you've abandoned the position though, I certainly hope for as much. Whip up a new thought, a new position, and we can have a nice debate if that's what you want. But don't peddle bullshit once the lids are off the jars. It's ungentlemanly.

[DMC]

50 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Ok... I haven't been claiming to express every political view I hold. It isn't contradictory to anything I've been saying, is it? I don't really know what point you're making.

Um, what?  As you say, you haven't "been claiming to express every political view [you] hold" at all.  Have no idea what the fuck that even means.  And, yeah, I'm in the same boat you are - I have no fucking idea what point you're trying to make.

58 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Anyway, do you agree with me? From the outside, America can feel quite contradictory. There is a earnestness about the democratic process that you don't get in England. Like (sorry for resorting to anecdote again, but this isn't my central argument) on my Facebook, I always see Americans at election enthusing about everyone getting out and voting in a way we don't. But voter turnout is poor by international standards- http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/21/u-s-voter-turnout-trails-most-developed-countries/

Sonofa..I was gonna have a link here, but it was too hard to find, and I'm lazy and don't care enough.  Anyway, once you control for registered voters, the US' turnout in presidential elections is pretty average comparatively.  As for Americans having a particular "earnestness" about democracy, no, you got me there.  I wish.

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

I know smart people who don't engage in politics because they say they don't understand it. And I always say, it really isn't the complicated, once you get through a bit of bullshit and jargon this is all very understandable to an average person. I feel that if we gave people just the basics in the state school system, they would feel able to build on that knowledge. 

Better yet, politics is easily understandable!  Pretty sure everyone that wants to can grapple with that crazy party system we got - you're either a Republican or a Democrat.  So, yeah, all that bullshit and jargon end - spoiler alert - at a pretty disappointing point.  Sorry bout that, my exes say it happens to every guy.

[mormont]

Right, first off:

[mod] Cool it, please. Some pretty intemperate language being used here. There are limits, observe them. Thanks. [/mod]

Second:

6 hours ago, S John said:

@mormont and @dmc515

i reckon I wasn’t clear, and that’s my fault.  When I say it does not matter, I’m not talking about in general, or for us, im talking about for Trump supporters. I’m talking about the ways in which discrepancies in popular vote vs electoral vote are reconciled to them.  And in that regard, it doesn’t fucking matter what the truth is.  The truth is what it needs to be. I think that needs to be clearly understood and it isn’t.  This is a post-truth environment and it’s the single most damaging thing about Trump. He successfully created an alternate reality.  Maybe irreparably, recovery won’t be easy.

What does this have to do with whether Trump was lucky, whether he is a genius or an idiot, or whether he'll be re-elected? All these questions, which are what we're discussing, are about the truth, not the delusions of loyal Trump voters. They can continue to believe whatever they want - if you are so far into Trump you believe this stuff, you'll turn out for him regardless of whether it's proven true or not. But by the same token, the rest of the US electorate will do what they do regardless of Trump voters' delusions, and that's what will matter.

For the rest: there continues to be an absolutely enormous amount of hindsight bias in this thread. Trump's strategy was a desperate gamble, and that it paid off does not mean he wasn't lucky - quite the reverse. Some pollsters had their issues, but that also means little: even if they were correct that there was a 96% chance of Clinton winning, that we exist in the 4% of possible universes wouldn't prove them wrong. And folks, nobody cares if or how you predicted Trump could win. It matters no more than a psychic octopus predicting the winner of a football match.

I say all this as someone who felt and said at the time that Trump's chances were being underplayed and that the state polling showed it was chancy. But I also recognise that this proves nothing about my level of insight.

Trump was lucky. What he has going for him is persistence, bullishness, arrogance, the ability to just obliviously keep going when others would quit. He's too stupid to give up, and it paid off. He needed that, and he needed his tabloid experience (as noted), but he also needed several huge slices of luck, and it would be foolish not to recognise that.

[mankytoes]

23 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

We ain't digging yet, mate. Your argument was weighed. It was measured. It was found wanting.

Your attempts to force it further are what brought the wolves to your door, when I grew tired of watching our friends bash their head against the border wall you've erected to protect the thing.

It does seem as though you've abandoned the position though, I certainly hope for as much. Whip up a new thought, a new position, and we can have a nice debate if that's what you want. But don't peddle bullshit once the lids are off the jars. It's ungentlemanly.

I can only say I disagree. Whether my argument is good or bad, it hasn't been refuted, people have just stated it's wrong and thrown in a load of insults. 

I don't think I'm trying to force it, I've tried several times to open the discussion onto other things, people keep responding to that point, so I'm just replying. 

I haven't changed my mind, but I'm trying to steer things away from that discussion. I don't think there is any life left in it. 

5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Sonofa..I was gonna have a link here, but it was too hard to find, and I'm lazy and don't care enough.  Anyway, once you control for registered voters, the US' turnout in presidential elections is pretty average comparatively.  As for Americans having a particular "earnestness" about democracy, no, you got me there.  I wish.

Better yet, politics is easily understandable!  Pretty sure everyone that wants to can grapple with that crazy party system we got - you're either a Republican or a Democrat.  So, yeah, all that bullshit and jargon end - spoiler alert - at a pretty disappointing point.  Sorry bout that, my exes say it happens to every guy.

Fair enough, I'm dealing with a very small sample size. And from an English perspective. Americans seem earnest about everything. I do think the size of the USA is an issue, I think there's a reason most countries don't reach that size. You get such a contrast of communities, which is fascinating to me, but difficult with national politics. When I've met coastal liberals, they seem like they don't understand the mentality of southern Republican areas any better than we do. In England, we say you're never more than ten feet from a Tory. 

I think you can usually engage people by talking about issues. A lot of people say they're apolitical, but they do have opinions about tax, healthcare, education, civil rights... if I was teaching politics, I'd initially keep away from the institutions themselves. 

[Martell Spy]

Jared Kushner’s Father, Charles: Ethics Watchdogs Are ‘Jerks’

https://www.thedailybeast.com/jared-kushners-father-charles-ethics-watchdogs-are-jerks?ref=home

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, mormont said:

[mod] Cool it, please. Some pretty intemperate language being used here. There are limits, observe them. Thanks. [/mod]

That's on me, sorry.

5 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I do think the size of the USA is an issue, I think there's a reason most countries don't reach that size. You get such a contrast of communities, which is fascinating to me, but difficult with national politics. When I've met coastal liberals, they seem like they don't understand the mentality of southern Republican areas any better than we do. In England, we say you're never more than ten feet from a Tory. 

Yeah, that's an aspect of polarization in America.  It's called sorting.  More and more, people tend to live among communities that agree with each other politically.  Plus there's the whole atomistic Bowling Alone part to this shit.

13 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

if I was teaching politics, I'd initially keep away from the institutions themselves. 

Heh.  Well I don't have that option.

[mankytoes]

6 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

 

Yeah, that's an aspect of polarization in America.  It's called sorting.  More and more, people tend to live among communities that agree with each other politically.  Plus there's the whole atomistic Bowling Alone part to this shit.

Heh.  Well I don't have that option.

Yeah, I read an article about mutual mass migration between California and Texas, interesting, because if that continues, you wonder if America will be a nation state in much more than name. 

I did read that thread, sadly I couldn’t think of any advice. I did well on those kinds of modules, but didn’t enjoy them. I tended to worse on the modules I enjoyed more, actually. I guess try and use plenty of real life examples of how things work, no more facty than is strictly necessary. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

I did read that thread, sadly I couldn’t think of any advice. I did well on those kinds of modules, but didn’t enjoy them. I tended to worse on the modules I enjoyed more, actually. I guess try and use plenty of real life examples of how things work, no more facty than is strictly necessary. 

Huh?  I'm confused and feel like an old man.  What thread - and more specifically what modules?  Have no idea what you're referring to.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think it's less polarized than it seems from the outside.  If you live in the sticks, it's like 60-40 conservative to liberal.  In the cities and burbs, the other way around, with a a few aberrations.  

I think what you'll find now is that there are fewer people who are liberal on some shit and conservative on other shit.  

Yeah there are exceptions but the parties have become more polarized, not the electorate.  They both used to have a little more 'purple' territory (and certainly still do in some areas, see Lamb in PA, Ojeda in WV)

[Rorshach]

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Huh?  I'm confused and feel like an old man.  What thread - and more specifically what modules?  Have no idea what you're referring to.

I’d hazard a guess at your Bureaucracy thread.