IamMe90 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 10 hours ago, Shryke said: Nah, he's just hopeful. He's a true believer. He's not trying to grift anyone, he really believes he could pull it off. Hah, this may be the nicest thing I’ve seen you say about Sanders before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 2 hours ago, butterbumps! said: Except that's not what anyone here said, and is a pretty disingenuous read on why luck came into the discussion. Someone posited that Trump couldn't possibly have bumbled to the top through a combo of American bigotry and luck. To which a number of us are like, yea, he really could have, and did. I think, at this juncture, the evidence is significant that Trump played to bigotry that went beyond what was usually normal for American Politics. So the question is: 1. Is Trump some kind of diabolical evil genius that knew playing to bigotry would win him the white house. 2. Or is it more like he's a buffoon, that has a serious affliction of diarrhea of the mouth, and couldn't shut his trap if his life depended on it, and he was just basically saying things that he really believed and many people responded to it. I think case 2, is more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Yes, Butterbumps, I guess bigotry covers racism and misogyny, but he beat Hillary partly because of the attitude towards women here, though their skin tones were sort of similar. He did appeal to racists, because of his policies. It was a perfect storm, agreed, with a con man, low information types, pseudo Christians, and snakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Good summary OldGimletEye. He’s an evil buffoon chosen by evil geniuses as their idiot; with marks, some mainly responding to bigotry and aggression, and some hoping for relief from economic problems, in a remarkably close election. I wonder where Melania is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 4 hours ago, HoodedCrow said: Felice, because his tribe wins that way. If that was the case, he should be strongly in favour of it, rather than indifferent. 3 hours ago, Altherion said: Technically, it was instrumental in the election of every President since the very beginning. You know perfectly well I mean that it elected presidents who lost the popular vote. 3 hours ago, Altherion said: I used to feel strongly about it when I was a teenager, but then I learned more about the many, many attempts to come up with an ideal democratic system and even though our Electoral College is an accident of history, it's not actually too bad. It is much less harmful than, for example, the first-past-the-post (also known as winner-takes-all) voting system used in most states which gives all of the electors to the candidate who won a plurality (not necessarily even the majority) of votes. The Electoral College is a kind of first-past-the-post! It locks in the two-party system, unlike preferential voting alternatives that give third parties a chance. It's simply a bizarre weighting system that means some people's votes count far more than others depending on where they live, and only those living in a small number of swing states have any chance of affecting the outcome. Simply using the popular vote instead would at least mean everyone's vote counted; the vote of a Republican in California would matter just as much as one in Florida or Alabama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Felice, you are quite right about the electoral college making voting weights bizarre. America is NOT actually a democracy, it is a Republic. It is not one person one vote for choosing the President. And thought that as a youngster as well. Let’s just suppose Altherion really likes Mitt Romney. Those Republicans are indifferent. Their tribe wins, but they often don’t like Trump the man, but they may be gaming power from the merging of religion and state that is occurring. They are lying low, because they have a long game plan. Maybe he liked the Bushes. They still enjoy the left and center here splitting their votes, and the lessonong of the coastal states power in the union. Or he could just want to restrict reproductive choice. Or he may dislike gay marriage, only he could tell if he wanted to. Maybe he likes corporate tax cuts. There is a lot of soft Republican support for Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 2 hours ago, IamMe90 said: Hah, this may be the nicest thing I’ve seen you say about Sanders before. I don't agree with all the guy's positions and politics but I don't really have a huge issue with them. And I don't think the man is dishonest or anything and never have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Shrike,they still don’t have single payer universal health car, hospital fees can be ruinous, and Americans pay an amazing amount for overhead and a lot for simple as well as difficult procedures, though it’s taken me about 20 docs and rehab specialists, and I’m still not sure what is wrong with my hands. Crazy. Oh and if their is a merger I can lose my specialists. I’ve had GP s who quit on me because they joined a clinic with the huge shared overhead. people pay large amounts for surgeries, and everything has copays or exception. I’ve had to accept shitty drugs because the insurance co forced us Togo with inferior brands. Nightmare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 49 minutes ago, felice said: The Electoral College is a kind of first-past-the-post! It locks in the two-party system, unlike preferential voting alternatives that give third parties a chance. It's simply a bizarre weighting system that means some people's votes count far more than others depending on where they live, and only those living in a small number of swing states have any chance of affecting the outcome. Simply using the popular vote instead would at least mean everyone's vote counted; the vote of a Republican in California would matter just as much as one in Florida or Alabama. But it's not the Electoral College that makes the system first-past-the-post. All it does is give smaller states a slightly larger say in exactly the same proportion that their two Senators do for their totals in Congress. It's the voting systems of the individual states that make it first-past-the-post for most of them -- but not all. For example, Maine and Nebraska allocate their electoral votes per Congressional district with only the 2 electors corresponding to the Senators going to whoever wins the state-wide plurality. If everyone did that, we could get rid of pretty much all of the major drawbacks of the Elector College without getting rid of the Electoral College (which will never happen because it requires a Constitutional amendment and thus the support of the smaller states which would be rendered almost completely irrelevant in a popular vote system). Also, it's not the Electoral College that locks in the two party system, it's the two party system that prevents the Electoral College from being configured in a way that wouldn't lock it in. For example, there's a proposal which would simply allocate the winner of the Electoral College to be the winner of the popular vote without a Constitutional amendment, but it hasn't gone anywhere in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 44 minutes ago, Triskele said: Trump's going to argue that as President he cannot be guilty of obstruction of justice. Here we go. Our system of "checks and balances" is going to be tested before this is over. America is being tasked with an Exam, we pass or fail on whether this monster can be checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said: Our system of "checks and balances" is going to be tested before this is over. America is being tasked with an Exam, we pass or fail on whether this monster can be checked. Pretty sure we already failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 35 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Pretty sure we already failed. Yeah. When the monsters are in the classroom, it's pencils down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankytoes Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 8 hours ago, butterbumps! said: How about this: do you think that Trump is different in private from what we see in public? Specifically, do you think he is capable of being something other than what we see, such that it is and was a deliberate choice on his part to sell the low-information, Fox News-watcher, imbecile persona that turned out to be successful? I did think that he was generally seen as disingenuous, maybe I was wrong about that perception. I think he'd be quite uncomfortable being himself amongst his supporters; he's been a member of the New York elite his whole life. He's very clearly lying about being an active Christian (although that's hardly unique in American politics). I mean he has contradicted himself a ridiculous number of times- https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/top/ My impression, and of course that's all it is, is that he doesn't actually hold many strong political views, and doesn't have many political principles, which can be helpful in politics, they can weigh you down like Ned Stark's honour. Besides the basic "run the country in a way that is good for rich people like me" idea, most is up for grabs. They want me to wave the rainbow flag? Sure. They want me to have this gay bashing Christian fundy running mate? Sure. I think LGBT rights is a good area for this point, because he's flip flopped so much. I don't think he's really homophobic on any deep level, but I think he's happy to incorporate homophobia and homophobes if it's in his interest, which is actually worse, in my opinion, than someone like Pence who appears to actually hold these crazy beliefs. It's an interesting question to ask of any leader, though, because it's hard to ever know for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetPea Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 2 hours ago, mankytoes said: I think LGBT rights is a good area for this point, because he's flip flopped so much. I don't think he's really homophobic on any deep level, but I think he's happy to incorporate homophobia and homophobes if it's in his interest, which is actually worse, in my opinion, than someone like Pence who appears to actually hold these crazy beliefs. It's an interesting question to ask of any leader, though, because it's hard to ever know for certain. Yeah, flip flopping like that is pretty much expected from any political figure. Hilary did the same. That doesn't mean they don't have strong political opinions though. They just go with what is popular and strategically beneficial for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankytoes Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 1 hour ago, SweetPea said: Yeah, flip flopping like that is pretty much expected from any political figure. Hilary did the same. That doesn't mean they don't have strong political opinions though. They just go with what is popular and strategically beneficial for them. I mean, it's certainly true that it is hard to find a politician who has never flip flopped ever, but Trump really has taken it to an unusual level, and in such a short period of time. I'm no Hilary fan, but I don't think her changes of policy position are in the same league. Which is a hard idea to reconcile with the idea of him being "an idiot, pure and simple" and that "he just blabs whatever comes to the top of his head" (quoting Shryke). It's all of a spectrum, but I'd say Trump is on the unprincipled side of things. I agree that we should just view him in the same way we view other politicians though. The circumstances might be unusual, even exceptional, but in the end, he's just another politician, and not a very good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 this conversation is making me feel like I am delusional. I always thought my political views being different from my person views was a sign of wisdom (I still hold that they are...in that just because I feel this way, does not mean it is what is best for the country as a whole...but that is the opposite of what is being said above ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankytoes Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 20 minutes ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said: this conversation is making me feel like I am delusional. I always thought my political views being different from my person views was a sign of wisdom (I still hold that they are...in that just because I feel this way, does not mean it is what is best for the country as a whole...but that is the opposite of what is being said above ) Can you give me an example of what you mean by that? I'm not totally following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, mankytoes said: Can you give me an example of what you mean by that? I'm not totally following. 1) I love guns, I love target shooting. I've always been for reasonable restrictions, but the NRA and other advocates make it an all or nothing issue, so in spite of my gun love, I'm willing to go to nothing, if that is what it takes to protect our people. 2) a lot more personal- I could never conceive of a situation, other than death while still in the womb, where I would agree to have an abortion. It is simply not something I would do. However, I am, and have always been politically pro-choice. My reasoning is simple, I am not forced to have an abortion simply because they are legal. I can CHOOSE not to have one. This cannot be turned on my first issue...it is not about choosing to own guns or not...it doesn't matter if you agree or don't agree to own guns. Someone can still shoot up a bunch of innocents. Anyway, it was a joke about one view of wisdom, since it had been stated that doing the opposite was a dishonest thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankytoes Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said: 1) I love guns, I love target shooting. I've always been for reasonable restrictions, but the NRA and other advocates make it an all or nothing issue, so in spite of my gun love, I'm willing to go to nothing, if that is what it takes to protect our people. 2) a lot more personal- I could never conceive of a situation, other than death while still in the womb, where I would agree to have an abortion. It is simply not something I would do. However, I am, and have always been politically pro-choice. My reasoning is simple, I am not forced to have an abortion simply because they are legal. I can CHOOSE not to have one. This cannot be turned on my first issue...it is not about choosing to own guns or not...it doesn't matter if you agree or don't agree to own guns. Someone can still shoot up a bunch of innocents. Anyway, it was a joke about one view of wisdom, since it had been stated that doing the opposite was a dishonest thing No, it's a good point, and I agree that it shows you've been more thoughtful about these issues. A kind of equivalent for me is defending the rights of groups I have little or no sympathy for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suttree Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 1 hour ago, mankytoes said: A kind of equivalent for me is defending the rights of groups I have little or no sympathy for. Can you provide an example of one of these groups and what this looks like from your perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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