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Angel Eyes

Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

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So what did Cersei think of Joffrey being betrothed to Sansa? Did she approve? Disapprove because House Lannister has no rival and she sees everyone as beneath them? Or were there alarm bells going off in her head about the "younger and more beautiful queen"?

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4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Before or after Robb called his men to arms?  She was ok in the beginning.

Before, at the beginning of the series.

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4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Go ahead.

Sorry, I'm of the audio-bookular persvation so quotes are a bit of a pain in the arse for me.

 

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We didn't have a Cersei POV back when they were still betrothed. But Cersei hates all women and girls, plus Joffrey was her favourite child so no one could be good enough for him. I doubt she would approve of any match for Joff because she feels threatened by the YMBQ prophecy.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what did Cersei think of Joffrey being betrothed to Sansa? Did she approve? Disapprove because House Lannister has no rival and she sees everyone as beneath them? Or were there alarm bells going off in her head about the "younger and more beautiful queen"?

I don't think she wanted the marriage at all, considering how it would have elevated House Stark to royal status. I'm sure she would have preferred a bride from a junior branch of House Lannister, but years into the future.

This partly explains that unusual outing Joffrey and Sansa had on the Trident. There is absolutely no way the crown prince and the daughter of the Warden of the North should have been allowed to just go riding off alone through strange country. Even Robert and Ned have a tail when they leave camp. And there were no consequences to the Hound for forsaking his sworn duty to protect the prince at all costs.

My suspicion is that Cersei set it up so that Joff could get Sansa alone and defile her, which would make her ineligible to be queen even if she was the victim, which Joffrey would deny of course. Cersei was going to host Sansa and Arya for the day, but in the end has to speak with the "good councilors" (which I take to mean Renly, Selmy and Payne). What could she possibly need to speak to these three about for the entire day?

In the end, however, I believe Joffrey was planning to kill her, since his attempt on Bran has apparently failed. It's all part of another theory in which Littlefinger manipulated Joff into thinking that the death of a Stark child is the only thing to prevent Ned from becoming Hand, which would of course be very bad for Joffrey. So I think Joff's plan was to get her drunk and then drown her in the river or something. Good thing they ran into Arya and Mycah instead.

 

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6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

My suspicion is that Cersei set it up so that Joff could get Sansa alone and defile her, which would make her ineligible to be queen even if she was the victim, which Joffrey would deny of course.

Cersei assuming that her son would straight up rape the daughter of the-hand-to-be feels like a stretch to me. If Joff did that then I don't think it is impossible that Robert might just send his beast of a son to the Wall. 

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So I think Joff's plan was to get her drunk and then drown her in the river or something. Good thing they ran into Arya and Mycah instead.

Well, that sure got super duper dark with the quickness.

You got a link to that theory anywhere?

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She complained to Jaime in private about Neds Hand, not his daughter. She certainly didn't want him in court, but I never got that impression about Sansa.

They have a fun relationship. Cersei seems to think that she's helping Sansa most of the time. She often takes pity on her and tries to teach her the inner workings of court. Princes gotta marry someone, if she wasn't in board at first she got on later. 

Not once has Cersei thought of Sansa as the other Queen who's younger and more beautiful who will cast her down and take all she has dear, yet...

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During the conversation between Cersei and Jaime that Bran overhears, which serves as a big info dump on their thoughts, the betrothal is never mentioned.  Cersei is clearly unhappy about Ned becoming hand, but shows no concerns about his daughter becoming Joffrey's queen.  She probably figured that Joffrey had to marry somebody, and Sansa was malleable and biddable, and not threatening.  She certainly was insistent on her remaining his betrothed after Ned's death, probably because she regarded her as a non-threat.

44 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

In the end, however, I believe Joffrey was planning to kill her, since his attempt on Bran has apparently failed. It's all part of another theory in which Littlefinger manipulated Joff into thinking that the death of a Stark child is the only thing to prevent Ned from becoming Hand, which would of course be very bad for Joffrey. So I think Joff's plan was to get her drunk and then drown her in the river or something. Good thing they ran into Arya and Mycah instead.

Given that there is no textual evidence that there was anything out of the ordinary about their trip through the countryside, or that any other character regarded it as unusual or suspicious, I think this theory is complete nonsense.  Joffrey was trying to show a girl a good time, and it worked until they ran into Arya and Mycah, and Joffrey, being drunk, got stupid.

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11 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Id imagine after a few meetings she  had her measure .....beautiful ,well connected , good breeding etc but seemingly simple and easily to manipulate

In other words, not a threat.

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Quote

"I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son...."

AFFC - CERSEI IV

Cersei genuinely loved Sansa. And so:

  • No alarm bells on the younger queen front (there should have been!)
  • Joff and Cersei hold on to the Sansa engagement way after its political purpose is lost.
  • Tyrion can threaten Joff with Cersei's disapproval of Sansa's beatings. (Cersei has been turning a blind eye to the beatings, but seemingly both Tyrion and Joff know she would flare up if forced to take notice.)
  • Shock and disbelief at the Tyrell plot ('Sansa is my hostage!' Why say 'my'? Cersei defers to Tywin in everything else.)
  • Confidential, almost heart-to-heart conversations with Sansa (briefly, sometimes).
  • An exquisite wedding dress for Sansa, and a choice of the queen's own perfumes.
  • An extreme sense of betrayal at Sansa's 'murder' of Joff. As if Sansa was an adopted daughter, not a hostage.

Cersei's love is not worth much. She says love is poison, and lives up to it.

ETA

Somehow I never noticed this before. Cersei was charmed! and by Sansa. This is quite funny; at the same time Sansa was being charmed by Cersei - actually completely rolled over by Cersei - at the same time Cersei herself succumbed to the charm of her lovely future daughter-in-law. This is great; the little bird has got it; she had the gift all along.

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Sansa is the perfect daughter in law for Cersei: she's naive, worships the ground she walks on, has 0 political ambition, and can be shaped into Cersei's liking. Got!Sansa was the exact opposite of Margaery so I see no reason why Cersei would be against the betrothal. 

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On 5/30/2018 at 5:59 PM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Id imagine after a few meetings she  had her measure .....beautiful ,well connected , good breeding etc but seemingly simple and easily to manipulate

Pretty much this.

 

Cersei had no reason to be worried about the YMBQ prophecy until Joff died, presumably at the hands of her valonquar.  So in AGOT it wasn't on her radar.

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On 5/30/2018 at 11:35 PM, Nevets said:

She certainly was insistent on her remaining his betrothed after Ned's death, probably because she regarded her as a non-threat.

More likely because Sansa was a de facto hostage, and thus a way to ensure the Starks' good behaviour (or so the Lannisters hoped). The betrothal was mostly an excuse so the Lannisters had a reason to hold on to her that made them look better (basically PR) than saying outright that she was a hostage.

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On 5/31/2018 at 4:26 PM, Springwatch said:

Cersei genuinely loved Sansa. And so:

  • No alarm bells on the younger queen front (there should have been!)
  • Joff and Cersei hold on to the Sansa engagement way after its political purpose is lost.
  • Tyrion can threaten Joff with Cersei's disapproval of Sansa's beatings. (Cersei has been turning a blind eye to the beatings, but seemingly both Tyrion and Joff know she would flare up if forced to take notice.)
  • Shock and disbelief at the Tyrell plot ('Sansa is my hostage!' Why say 'my'? Cersei defers to Tywin in everything else.)
  • Confidential, almost heart-to-heart conversations with Sansa (briefly, sometimes).
  • An exquisite wedding dress for Sansa, and a choice of the queen's own perfumes.
  • An extreme sense of betrayal at Sansa's 'murder' of Joff. As if Sansa was an adopted daughter, not a hostage.

Cersei's love is not worth much. She says love is poison, and lives up to it.

ETA

Somehow I never noticed this before. Cersei was charmed! and by Sansa. This is quite funny; at the same time Sansa was being charmed by Cersei - actually completely rolled over by Cersei - at the same time Cersei herself succumbed to the charm of her lovely future daughter-in-law. This is great; the little bird has got it; she had the gift all along.

Absolutely not. Cersei likes to think of herself as a much better person than she actually is. I would even go so far as to say Cersei is not capable of love; even the 'love' for her own children and Jaime mostly comes from the fact that she sees them as a reflection/extension of herself (herself being perhaps the only person she loves).

As I said before, the political purpose of the betrothal isn't lost; Sansa is a hostage and also the key to the north.

The exquisite wedding dress was appropriate to Sansa's status as the daughter of a Lord Paramount. It wasn't a kindness, it was socially expected. Sansa Stark couldn't get married in rags.

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On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:04 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

Cersei assuming that her son would straight up rape the daughter of the-hand-to-be feels like a stretch to me. If Joff did that then I don't think it is impossible that Robert might just send his beast of a son to the Wall. 

Well, that sure got super duper dark with the quickness.

You got a link to that theory anywhere?

Cersei is not assuming anything. She is ordering it.

It doesn't have to be a full-on rape, although I wouldn't put it past him. A torn dress and a story about a drunken, wanton Sansa trying to seduce poor, virtuous Joffrey is all it would take. Robert would not call his son and heir a liar (he knew he was lying about the fight, after all), so the result would be exactly what Cersei and Joffrey want: the marriage called off and Ned retreating back to Winterfell.

It's a dark story. Lots of unpleasant deaths.

My Littlefinger-Joffrey-Catspaw theory comes up every now and again. Here is the most recent:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150910-the-catspaw-means-motive-and-opportunity/&do=findComment&comment=8169641

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, Nevets said:

Given that there is no textual evidence that there was anything out of the ordinary about their trip through the countryside, or that any other character regarded it as unusual or suspicious, I think this theory is complete nonsense.  Joffrey was trying to show a girl a good time, and it worked until they ran into Arya and Mycah, and Joffrey, being drunk, got stupid.

Fair enough. Thank you for your opinion.

It still would be unheard of for the prince and daughter of the Hand to go riding off alone through strange country. Even Robert and Ned have a tail when they leave camp, and they are seasoned warriors, armed and armored.

As for textual evidence, Sansa says point blank to Arya:

Quote

"You're not supposed to leave the column. Father said so."

Clearly, this was against the rules. And the fact that no consequences befell the Hound afterward suggests to me that the whole afternoon was planned and approved by Cersei, otherwise he would have lost his head for dereliction of duty.

 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

As for textual evidence, Sansa says point blank to Arya:

Quote

"You're not supposed to leave the column. Father said so."

Clearly, this was against the rules. And the fact that no consequences befell the Hound afterward suggests to me that the whole afternoon was planned and approved by Cersei, otherwise he would have lost his head for dereliction of duty.

And yet, Ned says nothing to Sansa about it.  And as for Joffrey, Barristan has ultimate responsibility for the royal family's safety, yet says nothing.  And Jory, who has responsibility for the Starks' security, is also present, yet says ... nothing.  If George were going to have this matter, somebody would have said something.  Ergo, the fact that they were out alone isn't significant. 

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