Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

[John Suburbs]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You said:

How does bringing Jon up answer where people are talking about the catspaw in Feast and Dance? 

Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei were discussing the catspaw in Storm, and I believe in Feast as well?, I'll have to check.

Your contention is that Martin does not leave mysteries in his text unless it is something frequently referred to throughout the book. But I can provide multiple examples to prove you wrong:

RLJ: once Ned died, the only mention of Jon's mother was the brief exchange between Ned Dayne and Arya. Even Jon doesn't think of her anymore.

The Westerling conspiracy: Not one mention, not even a hint, that Sybelle Westerling was plotting with Tywin Lannister to bring down Robb Stark.

Cersei's order to Jaime to kill Arya: The order was given following the incident on the Trident but the reveal did not come until Feast with no hint of it in between.

So spare me all this talk about how well you understand Martin and that he only reveals secrets that are frequently mentioned in the text and have plot-altering consequences. He does not limit himself to your or anyone else's arbitrary rules. Sorry.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:24 PM, Springwatch said:

Whatever. I'll enjoy it, I'm sure.

ETA

To demonstrate my respect for the author, I'll add that it looks to me like the story is saturated with meaning and metaphor. That would also be clever.

And subtext. Don't forget the subtext. That's how you can puzzle out all of the seeming discrepancies and "plot holes" by figuring out what people are really thinking and doing away from the actual text.

[Nevets]

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

RLJ: once Ned died, the only mention of Jon's mother was the brief exchange between Ned Dayne and Arya. Even Jon doesn't think of her anymore.

It gets extensive mention in the first book, and as you mention, is discussed in Storm, keeping it in the reader's mind.  Besides, when the revelation comes, no reader is going to wonder "What the hell are they talking about?'  It is one of the main mysteries of the series.

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The Westerling conspiracy: Not one mention, not even a hint, that Sybelle Westerling was plotting with Tywin Lannister to bring down Robb Stark.

Are you kidding me?  There were hints galore that something was off.  The very fact that Jeyne was left alone with Robb is a red flag right there.   No mother in her right mind is going to leave two 16-year-olds of opposite sex alone together without considering the possibility of sexual activity.  And that is as true today as it would have been in Westeros.   And Tywin's lack of concern about the marriage certainly suggests that he had some involvement with it.  

26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Cersei's order to Jaime to kill Arya: The order was given following the incident on the Trident but the reveal did not come until Feast with no hint of it in between.

So?  While it adds some context to what happened, it doesn't really change our understanding of what happened that much.  Ned was clearly concerned about what would happen if she were found by Lannister men, and given what we know about Cersei, the request was hardly a huge surprise.  It does help explain Robert's actions.  He was tired of arguing with his wife, so threw her a bone.

I suspect that barely one in ten readers even remembers what Joffrey and Sansa were even doing prior to the wolf's attack on Joffrey.  I suspect a lot of them probably think they went for a short walk, which is what happened in the show.

You are suggesting that an event (the ride through the countryside) which has not been mentioned since and is probably barely remembered by readers, is going to be revealed as something major (a murder attempt) five books later.  Now that sounds like bad writing.  Something that Martin doesn't do.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

and I believe in Feast as well?, I'll have to check.

I'm interested to see if you come up with anything. I don't believe there is any Bran's catspaw talk in Feast or Dance. I believe this issue has been put to rest (in story).

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Your contention is that Martin does not leave mysteries in his text unless it is something frequently referred to throughout the book. 

This is not my contention. I stay away from painting any author's writing in such a broad stroke. I try to look at each idea, theme, metaphor, symbol, and motif on it's own merit.

For this specific assertion you have come up with, yes, I do dismiss for reasons written up thread. That does not mean I look at every situation in exactly the same scope. 

I would appreciate if you would not tell me what I think. I can think for myself. 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I can provide multiple examples to prove you wrong:

I'm not going to address this here because I do not have the viewpoint which you seem to have decided for me. 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So spare me all this talk about how well you understand Martin and that he only reveals secrets that are frequently mentioned in the text and have plot-altering consequences. He does not limit himself to your or anyone else's arbitrary rules.

I'm not sure what your meaning is here but it reads as confrentational. I hope that was not your intent.

I do not place rules on any author. Please don't tell me what I do.

Again, I look at each situation separately. In this situation, I believe what you are asserting has no merit based on what is in the books for the reasons discussed. 

[Nittanian]

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

It gets extensive mention in the first book, and as you mention, is discussed in Storm, keeping it in the reader's mind.  Besides, when the revelation comes, no reader is going to wonder "What the hell are they talking about?'  It is one of the main mysteries of the series.

Yep, Jon thinks of his mother a few times in ASOS.

Quote

Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. (ASOS Jon V)

Quote

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. (ASOS Jon VI)

And GRRM keeps the mystery alive by having Godric Borrell mention her in ADWD.

Quote

"The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn." (ADWD Davos I)

 

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

There were hints galore that something was off.  The very fact that Jeyne was left alone with Robb is a red flag right there.   No mother in her right mind is going to leave two 16-year-olds of opposite sex alone together without considering the possibility of sexual activity.  And that is as true today as it would have been in Westeros.   And Tywin's lack of concern about the marriage certainly suggests that he had some involvement with it.  

Yep, Tyrion is surprised, but Tywin does not seem concerned.

Quote

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals ... "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said, and then, "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon." (ASOS Tyrion III)

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

It gets extensive mention in the first book, and as you mention, is discussed in Storm, keeping it in the reader's mind.  Besides, when the revelation comes, no reader is going to wonder "What the hell are they talking about?'  It is one of the main mysteries of the series.

Yes, it is one of the main mysteries of the series despite having very little discussion since the first novel. You know what else is a main mystery in the series? Who tried to kill Bran and why? We're pretty sure we have the who, but the why is still fuzzy. This would help explain it.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

Are you kidding me?  There were hints galore that something was off.  The very fact that Jeyne was left alone with Robb is a red flag right there.   No mother in her right mind is going to leave two 16-year-olds of opposite sex alone together without considering the possibility of sexual activity.  And that is as true today as it would have been in Westeros.   And Tywin's lack of concern about the marriage certainly suggests that he had some involvement with it.  

Lol, so no mother would leave two 16 year olds in a room together, but every mother would allow two pre-teens to go riding off into strange lands together? A little logical consistency please.

Did you every consider the possibility that Jeyne may have snuck into Robb's room unbeknownst to her mother? Sybelle is also the mother who knowingly sent her own son to the Twins to die. Sorry, but there was no reason to expect that she was part of this plot until it was revealed two full novels later.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

So?  While it adds some context to what happened, it doesn't really change our understanding of what happened that much.  Ned was clearly concerned about what would happen if she were found by Lannister men, and given what we know about Cersei, the request was hardly a huge surprise.  It does help explain Robert's actions.  He was tired of arguing with his wife, so threw her a bone.

Exactly my point. Not every reveal is going to produce an earth-shattering shift in our perceptions. If I'm right about the Trident, however, it will be perception-altering because it will give you the full depth to which Littlefinger has been manipulating events all along.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

I suspect that barely one in ten readers even remembers what Joffrey and Sansa were even doing prior to the wolf's attack on Joffrey.  I suspect a lot of them probably think they went for a short walk, which is what happened in the show.

Walking, riding, makes no matter. They would never have been allowed to leave the column alone together.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

You are suggesting that an event (the ride through the countryside) which has not been mentioned since and is probably barely remembered by readers, is going to be revealed as something major (a murder attempt) five books later.  Now that sounds like bad writing.  Something that Martin doesn't do. 

And yet Martin did this exact thing with Jaime's reveal about wanting to kill Arya. How can you even stand this book if it is so full of bad writing?

 

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm interested to see if you come up with anything. I don't believe there is any Bran's catspaw talk in Feast or Dance. I believe this issue has been put to rest (in story).

Pretty sure it was in Feast: Cersei and Jaime in the White Tower, I believe.

15 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This is not my contention. I stay away from painting any author's writing in such a broad stroke. I try to look at each idea, theme, metaphor, symbol, and motif on it's own merit.

For this specific assertion you have come up with, yes, I do dismiss for reasons written up thread. That does not mean I look at every situation in exactly the same scope. 

I would appreciate if you would not tell me what I think. I can think for myself. 

I'm not sure what your meaning is here but it reads as confrentational. I hope that was not your intent.

I do not place rules on any author. Please don't tell me what I do.

Again, I look at each situation separately. In this situation, I believe what you are asserting has no merit based on what is in the books for the reasons discussed. 

You entered this thread with the comment that this cannot be part of the story because otherwise Martin would have made it part of the story. My response to that is, he has, for all the reasons I have outlined above. Disagree at your pleasure, but please don't be so arrogant as to say that you have a greater understanding than anyone else of either the writer or what's to come in the story. To coin a phrase: you know nothing, OtherFromAnother (unless of course, you are the author, to which I say: stop dicking around in chat rooms and get writing).

[Katerine459]

Just wanted to add my 2c to this conversation. My apologies if I cover something that's already been said; I did my best to read the thread, but stopped after page 3.

In AGOT, Sansa was a very naive and tractable child, who was in love with the romantic notion of falling in love with, and marrying, a prince. From both Cersei's and Joffrey's standpoints, Sansa was the perfect child to betroth Joffrey to. Very highborn, so it's a good political marriage. Tractable, so she's a good pawn. Not a player, by any stretch of the imagination. Cersei would have seen that instantly, and Joffrey, who only cares about having his impulses satisfied, wouldn't have cared.

Prophecy or not, Cersei would have seen Sansa as the perfect marriage, and the last thing she would have wanted was to undo it. Not out of love, or anything like that, but out of ambition. Joffrey was going to have to marry somebody, someday. Who better than an utterly-moldable pawn that can be used to solidify allegiance with the North?

Also, at the time, Cersei didn't consider Ned to be the biggest threat. He was a threat, but far from the biggest. Renly and Stannis were far more on her mind.

As for Joffrey... at the time of the Trident, Joffrey was Sansa's shining prince who could do no wrong. We don't know anything from Joffrey's point of view, but given his character, I can see two possibilities: 1) he loved being worshiped, or 2) he thought Sansa was insipid and boring, but he still loved being worshiped. I really believe that Joffrey's eventual cruelty to Sansa came from 3 things: 1) anger that Sansa witnessed his humiliation, 2) the whole "blood of a traitor" thing, which I think Joffrey truly believed, and 3) he became cruel simply because he enjoyed being cruel. But he only actually hated her... enough to hurt her... after she witnessed his humiliation at the Trident.

---

On an unrelated note, this is neither here nor there, but there were a bunch of comments in the first 3 pages that seem to think that the servants would have believed the face that Joffrey presented to the world. Which is rather absurd...

"If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- JK Rowling, though she's hardly the first to express this. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/09/inferiors/

Can you imagine Joffrey being anything other than horrid to his inferiors? Or imagine any of them harboring any love for him?

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, it is one of the main mysteries of the series despite having very little discussion since the first novel. You know what else is a main mystery in the series? Who tried to kill Bran and why? We're pretty sure we have the who, but the why is still fuzzy. This would help explain it.

Lol, so no mother would leave two 16 year olds in a room together, but every mother would allow two pre-teens to go riding off into strange lands together? A little logical consistency please.

Did you every consider the possibility that Jeyne may have snuck into Robb's room unbeknownst to her mother? Sybelle is also the mother who knowingly sent her own son to the Twins to die. Sorry, but there was no reason to expect that she was part of this plot until it was revealed two full novels later.

Exactly my point. Not every reveal is going to produce an earth-shattering shift in our perceptions. If I'm right about the Trident, however, it will be perception-altering because it will give you the full depth to which Littlefinger has been manipulating events all along.

Walking, riding, makes no matter. They would never have been allowed to leave the column alone together.

And yet Martin did this exact thing with Jaime's reveal about wanting to kill Arya. How can you even stand this book if it is so full of bad writing?

 

Given that this is a fantasy novel, and not a historical novel about the middle ages, I am not going to insist on strict realism, merely a reasonable level of plausibility.  

So, do I think it is plausible that Cersei, who chafes at being denied power, would want to meet with two powerful men?  Absolutely I do.  

Do I think it is plausible that she would allow her 12 y.o. son to be with his 11 y.o. betrothed.  Not a problem there.  Pre-teens get a certain amount of leeway, and they are betrothed, which gives even more leeway.

Do I find it plausible that Joffrey decided to go riding on his own initiative, without asking permission.  Oh, yeah,, sound like the privileged spoiled brat we've seen.

Do I find it plausible that Joffrey would want to harm Sansa.  Not really.  I have seen nothing that would indicate any interest in doing anything to hurt her, nor any reason to do so.  The ride looks far more like an attempt to impress her, and get her to like him.

I will admit I find the catspaw explanation somewhat unsatisfying, but I find other explanations even worse.  The idea that Littlefinger would rely on Joffrey to something like this without oversight it ridiculous.  Way too much danger of something going wrong.  He is more of an opportunist, taking advantage when he sees an opening.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And yet Martin did this exact thing with Jaime's reveal about wanting to kill Arya. How can you even stand this book if it is so full of bad writing?

Not really.   The wolf attack and its aftermath has been constantly mentioned and had major repercussions.  Jaime's statement explains a few things, but doesn't really affect our understanding of the overall incident.  The ride through the countryside has been essentially forgotten by everybody, including (I suspect) most readers.

As for the catspaw, I don't think we'll get more about it, but even if we do, I seriously doubt it had anything to do with the Trident incident.

Given that we seem to be going in circles and covering well-ploughed ground, I will retire from the field until and unless something new comes up.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 6/8/2018 at 12:39 PM, John Suburbs said:

If I'm right, this is one small part of a huge mystery that has occupied the story since the beginning: who sent the Catspaw to murder Bran? We know (or, at least, I am certain) that it was Joffrey. The question is, why? The musings of Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei are wholly unsatisfactory, which is why I think he was put up to it by Littlefinger. I won't get into all the details here, but suffice it to say that when Bran didn't die, he tried for Sansa. Nobody is talking about it because in isolation it is over and done with. But people are still talking about Bran and the catspaw. All of this is meant to be a mystery and there are still two full novels for all of this to come out. Just sit tight, keep an open mind and you just may get your truth.

 

The initial assumption is that the catspaw was sent to prevent Bran from telling anyone what he saw if he woke up. After Storm of Swords, many readers concluded (along with Tyrion) that Joffrey heard Robert talking about how it would be better to put Bran out of his misery and sent the catspaw with Robert's dagger in order to make his "dad" proud or something. I don't find that a great explanation, but neither motivation would apply to killing Sansa. Your theory is that Cersei wanted to derail the wedding, but if the catspaw was successful that wouldn't have done it (and their belief that the Lannister's were behind Jon Arryn's death actually pushed Ned to accept Robert's offer of the Handship & Joffrey's betrothal).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The initial assumption is that the catspaw was sent to prevent Bran from telling anyone what he saw if he woke up. After Storm of Swords, many readers concluded (along with Tyrion) that Joffrey heard Robert talking about how it would be better to put Bran out of his misery and sent the catspaw with Robert's dagger in order to make his "dad" proud or something. I don't find that a great explanation, but neither motivation would apply to killing Sansa. Your theory is that Cersei wanted to derail the wedding, but if the catspaw was successful that wouldn't have done it (and their belief that the Lannister's were behind Jon Arryn's death actually pushed Ned to accept Robert's offer of the Handship & Joffrey's betrothal).

I think Joffrey USED Robert's statement about Bran being better off dead and out of his misery to try his own hand (actually, a hired one) at killing someone.  It's a step up from the cat incident of his extreme youth. 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

Given that this is a fantasy novel, and not a historical novel about the middle ages, I am not going to insist on strict realism, merely a reasonable level of plausibility.  

So, do I think it is plausible that Cersei, who chafes at being denied power, would want to meet with two powerful men?  Absolutely I do.  

Do I think it is plausible that she would allow her 12 y.o. son to be with his 11 y.o. betrothed.  Not a problem there.  Pre-teens get a certain amount of leeway, and they are betrothed, which gives even more leeway.

Do I find it plausible that Joffrey decided to go riding on his own initiative, without asking permission.  Oh, yeah,, sound like the privileged spoiled brat we've seen.

Do I find it plausible that Joffrey would want to harm Sansa.  Not really.  I have seen nothing that would indicate any interest in doing anything to hurt her, nor any reason to do so.  The ride looks far more like an attempt to impress her, and get her to like him.

I will admit I find the catspaw explanation somewhat unsatisfying, but I find other explanations even worse.  The idea that Littlefinger would rely on Joffrey to something like this without oversight it ridiculous.  Way too much danger of something going wrong.  He is more of an opportunist, taking advantage when he sees an opening.

Each to his own opinions, but I think I can see that you are not a parent. Nobody, particularly not someone as protective as Cersei, just lets their kids wander off into unfamiliar country by themselves. Utterly implausible that Cersei would allow such a thing.

Would Joffrey do it on his own? Of course, but then there would have been serious repercussions to the Hound for simply taking the day off and leaving his charge in such jeopardy. The fact that Cersei does nothing speaks volumes about what she really thought of the entire episode.

Pre-teens do not get this kind of leeway. Yet another example from the text, Bran's first ride outside of Winterfell on Dancer:

Quote

They passed beneath the gatehouse, over the drawbridge, through the outer walls. Summer and Grey Wind came loping beside them, sniffing at the wind. Close behind came Theon Greyjoy, with his longbow and a quiver of broadheads; he had a mind to take a deer, he told them. He was followed by four guardsmen in mailed shirts and coifs, and Joseth, a stick-thin stableman whom Robb had named master of horses.

So not only do we have Robb and Theon armed and armored and two direwolves, but four men in mail, and this is just for a quick jaunt into the woods around Winterfell. True, Bran gets separated afterward because they were lax and had no real reason to expect any trouble, but just as a matter of course, they do not leave the castle without a complement of guards.

Heck, in Bran's first chapter, we have Ned, Robb, Theon, Jon and Jory Cassel all armed and armored plus another 15 or so men just to ride over to a nearby holdfast to execute a deserter. Open roads and open countrysides are dangerous, which is why royals and nobles, a single one of whom is carrying wealth that common people can only imagine, never travel without armed escort. It is just too dangerous.

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

Not really.   The wolf attack and its aftermath has been constantly mentioned and had major repercussions.  Jaime's statement explains a few things, but doesn't really affect our understanding of the overall incident.  The ride through the countryside has been essentially forgotten by everybody, including (I suspect) most readers.

As for the catspaw, I don't think we'll get more about it, but even if we do, I seriously doubt it had anything to do with the Trident incident.

Given that we seem to be going in circles and covering well-ploughed ground, I will retire from the field until and unless something new comes up.

OK, so now you have the wolf attack and its aftermath being constantly mentioned and with major repercussions, and yet the ride that led to this major event is irrelevant to both the characters and the readers. Are you saying these two events are completely disconnected? It was the ride that led to the attack that produced all of these repercussions, so, again, you're argument that none of what I am saying can be true because it doesn't matter to anyone or anything falls flat. It matters a great deal, both for our understanding of the past and for what may happen in the future. 

Sorry, but the only reason we're going in circles is because your arguments are veering all over the place and have absolutely no grounding in text or even fictional reality.

[Katerine459]

16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Each to his own opinions, but I think I can see that you are not a parent. Nobody, particularly not someone as protective as Cersei, just lets their kids wander off into unfamiliar country by themselves. Utterly implausible that Cersei would allow such a thing.

Would Joffrey do it on his own? Of course, but then there would have been serious repercussions to the Hound for simply taking the day off and leaving his charge in such jeopardy. The fact that Cersei does nothing speaks volumes about what she really thought of the entire episode.

 

Just pointing out... the tendency of parents to not allow their children to go off and do their own thing all day long (whenever they're not at school and it's not dinnertime) is actually a very recent development. It progressively happened more and more over the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. My parents, who grew up in the 50s, remember doing their own thing all day, every day, whenever they weren't at school, and the only rule was that they had to be home for dinner. Heck, my dad remembers having to go out alone on his paper route when everybody thought that Charlie Starkweather was in town. The protectiveness that's the norm today was just not normal back then... and that was only 60 years ago.

My parents are just a couple years older than GRRM, btw. So his experiences growing up were probably fairly similar.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The initial assumption is that the catspaw was sent to prevent Bran from telling anyone what he saw if he woke up. After Storm of Swords, many readers concluded (along with Tyrion) that Joffrey heard Robert talking about how it would be better to put Bran out of his misery and sent the catspaw with Robert's dagger in order to make his "dad" proud or something. I don't find that a great explanation, but neither motivation would apply to killing Sansa. Your theory is that Cersei wanted to derail the wedding, but if the catspaw was successful that wouldn't have done it (and their belief that the Lannister's were behind Jon Arryn's death actually pushed Ned to accept Robert's offer of the Handship & Joffrey's betrothal).

Sorry, you have it backward. At the risk of derailing the thread, I'll lay it all out.

My contention is that before leaving King's Landing, Littlefinger pulled Joffrey aside and told him all kinds of horror stories about how bad it would be if Ned were to become hand: bad for Robert, bad for Cersei and Jaime, bad for House Lannister, bad for the realm and, most of all, bad for Joffrey himself and his future ascension as king. Littlefinger then hinted that the only thing that could prevent Ned from taking the job is for some great tragedy to befall House Stark, such as the death of one of his children. So when Joffrey arrives at Winterfell, he has it in his mind that he should kill a Stark if he is to protect himself and his family. It doesn't matter which one; any Stark will do.

When Bran falls and it appears he is going to die, this would seem to Joffrey as if the situation has resolved itself. When Bran lives and Ned comes south anyway, Joff sends the catspaw back to finish the job. Littlefinger has no idea that Bran has fallen, nor even what Joffrey is planning to do in Winterfell. All he knows is that he will either succeed at doing something horrendous, or fail, either one of which suits LF's purpose: to sow discord between wolf and lion.

When the catspaw fails, Joffrey's next target is Sansa at the Trident. Cersei's main interest in letting them go off together is to put Sansa in a compromising position that would shame her to the point where she can no longer become queen, but I think Joffrey would have taken it further and maybe drowned her in the river or something.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Each to his own opinions, but I think I can see that you are not a parent. Nobody, particularly not someone as protective as Cersei, just lets their kids wander off into unfamiliar country by themselves. Utterly implausible that Cersei would allow such a thing.

You know who else isn't a parent?  Some guy by the name of George R.R. Martin.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Would Joffrey do it on his own? Of course, but then there would have been serious repercussions to the Hound for simply taking the day off and leaving his charge in such jeopardy. The fact that Cersei does nothing speaks volumes about what she really thought of the entire episode.

And the fact that Barristan and Jory, who have ultimate responsibility for the security of the respective families, say and do nothing suggests what they think of the whole episode.  That it is insignificant.  Nobody even asks in passing, "What were they doing out there anyway?".  And if George were going to have this matter, he would have had someone say something.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

OK, so now you have the wolf attack and its aftermath being constantly mentioned and with major repercussions, and yet the ride that led to this major event is irrelevant to both the characters and the readers. Are you saying these two events are completely disconnected?

Storywise, yes they are disconnected.  They could have come across Arya by any means.  The show skips the ride, and it is not missed in the least.

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

Just pointing out... the tendency of parents to not allow their children to go off and do their own thing all day long (whenever they're not at school and it's not dinnertime) is actually a very recent development. It progressively happened more and more over the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. My parents, who grew up in the 50s, remember doing their own thing all day, every day, whenever they weren't at school, and the only rule was that they had to be home for dinner. Heck, my dad remembers having to go out alone on his paper route when everybody thought that Charlie Starkweather was in town. The protectiveness that's the norm today was just not normal back then... and that was only 60 years ago.

My parents are just a couple years older than GRRM, btw. So his experiences growing up were probably fairly similar.

I seem to recall that George has mentioned in interviews that children in the past had far greater autonomy and self-reliance than today.  And that in the middle ages they did a lot of things they couldn't do today.

[FictionIsntReal]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, you have it backward. At the risk of derailing the thread, I'll lay it all out.

My contention is that before leaving King's Landing, Littlefinger pulled Joffrey aside and told him all kinds of horror stories about how bad it would be if Ned were to become hand: bad for Robert, bad for Cersei and Jaime, bad for House Lannister, bad for the realm and, most of all, bad for Joffrey himself and his future ascension as king. Littlefinger then hinted that the only thing that could prevent Ned from taking the job is for some great tragedy to befall House Stark, such as the death of one of his children. So when Joffrey arrives at Winterfell, he has it in his mind that he should kill a Stark if he is to protect himself and his family. It doesn't matter which one; any Stark will do.

When Bran falls and it appears he is going to die, this would seem to Joffrey as if the situation has resolved itself. When Bran lives and Ned comes south anyway, Joff sends the catspaw back to finish the job. Littlefinger has no idea that Bran has fallen, nor even what Joffrey is planning to do in Winterfell. All he knows is that he will either succeed at doing something horrendous, or fail, either one of which suits LF's purpose: to sow discord between wolf and lion.

When the catspaw fails, Joffrey's next target is Sansa at the Trident. Cersei's main interest in letting them go off together is to put Sansa in a compromising position that would shame her to the point where she can no longer become queen, but I think Joffrey would have taken it further and maybe drowned her in the river or something.

Littlefinger is able to appeal to Joffrey's sadism at times, but not like this. You're writing about the fate of house Lannister, but Joffrey doesn't think in those terms (which is why Tywin has to send Tyrion to engage in just that sort of thinking when Joffrey screws everything up). You've got Littlefinger trying to persuade Joffrey that Robert doesn't know how to look after his own interests, but Joffrey actually looks up to Robert (despite Robert's dislike for him) and rebukes both his mother & grandfather with Robert's example. There's no indication that Joffrey sough to find out why Robert would think Ned's handship was a good idea while Littlefinger (whom we have no indication Joffrey particularly respects) didn't. And if "a family tragedy" was the big motivator, Bran's fall (which would certainly cripple him even if he survived) would seem to fit the bill. And when we first see him use violence, it's not against the Stark sisters but the butcher's boy whom no noble (other than Arya) cares about. Littlefinger's plan wasn't to prevent from coming to King's Landing either, but to provide further evidence to the Starks that the Lannisters were behind Jon Arryn's death. Joffrey (officially a Baratheon at this point) being a little twerp doesn't really tie into that.

[John Suburbs]

5 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Just pointing out... the tendency of parents to not allow their children to go off and do their own thing all day long (whenever they're not at school and it's not dinnertime) is actually a very recent development. It progressively happened more and more over the 1970s, 80s, and 90s. My parents, who grew up in the 50s, remember doing their own thing all day, every day, whenever they weren't at school, and the only rule was that they had to be home for dinner. Heck, my dad remembers having to go out alone on his paper route when everybody thought that Charlie Starkweather was in town. The protectiveness that's the norm today was just not normal back then... and that was only 60 years ago.

My parents are just a couple years older than GRRM, btw. So his experiences growing up were probably fairly similar.

Yes, at home, in familiar territory, in their local neighborhoods, children were given much more leeway, and they usually stayed in groups. But nobody let their children, particularly two of the opposite sex on the cusp of puberty, just wander off to wherever when they were hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from home. And this certainly wasn't allowed for highborn lords and ladies whose clothes and jewelry alone were valuable enough for a peasant to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. Just didn't happen, not in history and certainly not in the text.

[John Suburbs]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

You know who else isn't a parent?  Some guy by the name of George R.R. Martin.

Uh, OK, and that's relevant how? You don't think George has the sense to realize that what he is writing is not realistic? Again, why do you even bother reading him? Why waste time with a story that you find not the least bit believable?

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

And the fact that Barristan and Jory, who have ultimate responsibility for the security of the respective families, say and do nothing suggests what they think of the whole episode.  That it is insignificant.  Nobody even asks in passing, "What were they doing out there anyway?".  And if George were going to have this matter, he would have had someone say something.

Barriston is LC of the kingsguard. Joffrey's sworn shield is the Hound, who is not a member of the KG. He answers to Cersei. Jory is not charged with protecting Sansa day and night. Maybe she should have had her own designated shield, but that would have been Ned's failing, not Jory's. If anyone was responsible for Sansa that day it was Septa Mordane, and there's a good chance that she did hear a few words from Ned because she sticks to Sansa like glue for the rest of the story, save for the riverside feast when she got drunk and Sansa had to be escorted back to the palace by Sandor.

Again, the arrogance of people who insist they know the mind of George RR Martin. As if he lays out all his little surprises for all to see all the way through the books, so that by the time he does reveal the truth it's no surprise to anyone. Please.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Storywise, yes they are disconnected.  They could have come across Arya by any means.  The show skips the ride, and it is not missed in the least.

That's absurd. It's got nothing to do with whether they ride or walk. They are two highborn children dripping with gold and jewels all alone in strange country. To say that this is somehow disconnected from the search for Arya nonsense. It was all part of the same tragic incident.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

I seem to recall that George has mentioned in interviews that children in the past had far greater autonomy and self-reliance than today.  And that in the middle ages they did a lot of things they couldn't do today.

Sorry, no. Common children could wander as far as their little legs could take them, but highborns were tailed whenever they left their castles. It would literally be like Donald Trump letting Barron wander around New Jersey in a suit made out of $100 bills.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Littlefinger is able to appeal to Joffrey's sadism at times, but not like this. You're writing about the fate of house Lannister, but Joffrey doesn't think in those terms (which is why Tywin has to send Tyrion to engage in just that sort of thinking when Joffrey screws everything up). You've got Littlefinger trying to persuade Joffrey that Robert doesn't know how to look after his own interests, but Joffrey actually looks up to Robert (despite Robert's dislike for him) and rebukes both his mother & grandfather with Robert's example. There's no indication that Joffrey sough to find out why Robert would think Ned's handship was a good idea while Littlefinger (whom we have no indication Joffrey particularly respects) didn't. And if "a family tragedy" was the big motivator, Bran's fall (which would certainly cripple him even if he survived) would seem to fit the bill. And when we first see him use violence, it's not against the Stark sisters but the butcher's boy whom no noble (other than Arya) cares about. Littlefinger's plan wasn't to prevent from coming to King's Landing either, but to provide further evidence to the Starks that the Lannisters were behind Jon Arryn's death. Joffrey (officially a Baratheon at this point) being a little twerp doesn't really tie into that.

Joffrey thinks in terms of his mother's fate and his own. If he thought Ned represented a threat to his ascension, you bet he would act. And it probably ingratiated Littlefinger even more when it turned out that Ned did in fact pose just such a threat.

Joffrey does not look up to Robert:

Quote

"I'm sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard, you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

"Oh, him" is hardly the reaction of a boy who has just suddenly lost the father that he loved and admired. Sure, Joff is going to use Robert's battle prowess to jab at his grandfather, but he never looked up to Robert nor craved his approval -- certainly not in time we see him on the page.

Littlefinger's plan is not to prevent Ned from becoming Hand. That's just the story he tells Joff to get him to act. Like Tyrion, LF knows full well that if Robert wants Ned to be Hand, Ned will be Hand. But even if he doesn't, so what? Now there is mistrust between wolf and stag, and an impetuous, hot-tempered lion as Hand -- plenty of ingredients for some really good chaos.

There's no indication for any of this, of course, other than the fact that there is no plausible reason as to why Joffrey would try to kill Bran after he had already left King's Landing. Our master wordsmith has buried the truth so deep in the subtext that hardly anyone can see it, which makes it all the more shocking when he chooses to reveal it, just like the Arryn murder, the Westerling conspiracy and who knows what else he has in store.

[LindsayLohan]

This is a terrible argument.  Joffrey was the Crown Prince, armed with the Lion's Tooth, and would have been more than capable of simply riding with his chickenhead girlfriend by a river, within a few miles of a large military host.  He's only a couple years away from manhood (and being able to come into Kingship, should he not have a father), and this sort of excursion wouldn't even be considered dangerous.  Should the Hound have accompanied him?  Perhaps. Would anyone argue with Joffrey if he said "Leave me alone with this chick for a couple hours?" No.

Just stop.