Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

This is a terrible argument.  Joffrey was the Crown Prince, armed with the Lion's Tooth, and would have been more than capable of simply riding with his chickenhead girlfriend by a river, within a few miles of a large military host.  He's only a couple years away from manhood (and being able to come into Kingship, should he not have a father), and this sort of excursion wouldn't even be considered dangerous.  Should the Hound have accompanied him?  Perhaps. Would anyone argue with Joffrey if he said "Leave me alone with this chick for a couple hours?" No.

Just stop.

Absolutely not. Virtually every time we look, we see high lords and ladies accompanied by guards whenever they venture out overland. To say that they would just let their children ride off to who knows where to do who knows what is preposterous. This is completely unfamiliar territory for both of them, and a military host that is a few miles away and has no idea where they are is absolutely useless if you are confronted by pirates or brigands who could live comfortably for the rest of their lives from the gold and jewels they would pluck from the two kids that they have just raped and killed in less than a minute.

Joffrey armed with Lion's Tooth is about as much protection as Sam with a wet noodle. He doesn't know the first thing about swordsmanship and barely has enough wind to hack apart a book with a Valyrian Steel blade.

Cersei would absolutely argue with Joffrey if he tried to make off with Sansa. And she should have been flipping mad at the Hound, to the point of calling for his execution, if she really thought he had foresworn his solemn duty and abandoned Joffrey so that he got hurt. Joffrey can order the Hound to do all kinds of things, but he cannot overrule his standing orders from the king and the queen to protect Joffrey at all times. 

[Nevets]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, the arrogance of people who insist they know the mind of George RR Martin. As if he lays out all his little surprises for all to see all the way through the books, so that by the time he does reveal the truth it's no surprise to anyone. Please.

I do not claim to have read George's mind.  I have, however, read the books.  And he is quite good at giving hints to important stuff.  He disguises them, and scatters them to make them difficult to find, but they are there.  And if something is wrong, he doesn't assume we have outside knowledge; he has a character think or say something indicating it is wrong.  We have nothing like that here.  

 

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, no. Common children could wander as far as their little legs could take them, but highborns were tailed whenever they left their castles. It would literally be like Donald Trump letting Barron wander around New Jersey in a suit made out of $100 bills.

Barron Trump carrying a pistol and riding a motorcycle, perhaps.   No $100 bills, though.  They weren't that well-dressed.  Anything he couldn't scare off, he could outrun, and anything he couldn't outrun, he could scare off.  Between Joffrey's sword and two fast horses, they could probably handle anything that came up, which given the proximity of the King's column, would be unlikely anyway.  No peasant or outlaw wants that kind of trouble.

[FictionIsntReal]

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey thinks in terms of his mother's fate and his own. If he thought Ned represented a threat to his ascension, you bet he would act. And it probably ingratiated Littlefinger even more when it turned out that Ned did in fact pose just such a threat.

When Cersei was trying to rule through Joffrey, he didn't care that much about her. There was no indication at this time that Ned would pose any threat to Joffrey's "ascension", nor reason to expect that such ascension would be happening in the near future. Cersei may have been plotting to get Robert killed before anyone else followed Jon Arryn in discovering the truth, but she's certainly not sharing that information with anyone who doesn't need to know (even Lannister loyalist Pycelle didn't know the truth about Arryn and assumed they were behind it without being told). Joffrey is a highly unreliable child and NOT someone you give sensitive information to. We get a number of Lannister POVs, and none of them indicate that Joffrey would have such information. As far as Joffrey knew, his father died without any human help and Ned Stark made a surprise betrayal of his father to deny him the throne in order to keep power for himself.

I don't personally think it makes a whole lot of sense that Joffrey hired an assassin (there are no other instances of this being his M.O or reasons to expect him to have such connections), but Tyrion concludes that he did it to impress Robert, and he's the one who participated in that dialogue you quoted. He tends to know his family rather well, so I'd expect him to have a better read on Joffrey's character than most people.

Robert deflowered a number of maidens when he was young. If that happened with Sansa, her family wouldn't be happy, but it would likely be chalked up to Joffrey being his father's son. If they hadn't already been betrothed, then the Stark's might insist on such a marriage as compensation. But as I said earlier, now it would if anything just result in the wedding being pushed up.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Nevets said:

I do not claim to have read George's mind.  I have, however, read the books.  And he is quite good at giving hints to important stuff.  He disguises them, and scatters them to make them difficult to find, but they are there.  And if something is wrong, he doesn't assume we have outside knowledge; he has a character think or say something indicating it is wrong.  We have nothing like that here.  

Sorry, but no. As I demonstrated above, there have been plenty of secrets revealed with barely any hints at all, and certainly nobody voicing the truth for all to hear. Again, the Arryn murder: when Ned confronts Cersei about it in the godswood, nobody in-story questions why she would murder one hand who discovered her truth but then freely admit it to the next. The answer, of course, is that she didn't murder the first hand, but you had to wait five years and another two full novels before the truth came out.

The Red Wedding: absolutely no indication that Sybelle was in on it. She even sent her own son off to die at the Twins. Yet, out of the blue, the sudden reveal in Dance -- this time with a 10-year wait.

All the hints to all the important stuff I am talking about are all there, and they are all scattered. Every time a highborn leaves his castle with an armed escort is another hint that this little jaunt was very wrong. Every time Sandor is referred to as Joffrey's sworn shield, Dany trailed constantly by her bloodriders...

Martin isn't going to lay every secret out for you on a silver platter. Most times, the evidence is what is not said, what is not done, just as much as what is.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

Barron Trump carrying a pistol and riding a motorcycle, perhaps.   No $100 bills, though.  They weren't that well-dressed.  Anything he couldn't scare off, he could outrun, and anything he couldn't outrun, he could scare off.  Between Joffrey's sword and two fast horses, they could probably handle anything that came up, which given the proximity of the King's column, would be unlikely anyway.  No peasant or outlaw wants that kind of trouble.

Lol, I'd like to see that, but no, you won't see Barron soloing up the PCH any time soon, even with a gun.

Sansa is wearing her "nicest blue silks." Those alone would be worth a pretty penny to some wretched smallfolk, even as rags. She is expecting to spend the day with the queen, and maybe Joffrey as well, so you can bet she has some jewelry on as well.

We don't know how Joffrey is dressed, but I guarantee you it's not roughspun. His sword, however:

Quote

"gleaming blue steel, castle-forged and double-edged, with a leather grip and a lion's head pommel in gold."

I'd wager it's worth at least 50 dragons, maybe more, enough to live in luxury for quite a long time.

It doesn't matter how far from the column they are. There are out alone and nobody knows where they are, so there is no way to help them if they get in trouble. Brigands and pirates make their living stealing from the rich, so it is ludicrous to say they wouldn't want "that kind of trouble." People talk at inns, so if word got out that there are two defenseless highborns dining on trout, it would be a simple matter to ambush them, mounted or no. By the time anyone even realized they were missing, let alone found the bodies, they'd be long gone.

But these aren't the only dangers. If Joffrey tried to flush the shadowcat out of its lair, he could have been killed. If either one of their horses hit a rock or a root, they could have been thrown and killed.

Plus there is the fact that there is no one to chaperone these two young people who are on the cusp of discovering their sexuality, and even a hint of suspicion regarding Sansa's virtue would be enough to call off the wedding, as we see later with Cersei's setup of Margaery. Sansa, returning from a day alone with Joffrey, drunk and disheveled, is all Cersei needs to make a huge stink.

The simple fact is, as I've shown in countless examples, highborn children, nor even their parents, go off into the countryside without an escort. We don't need someone to come right out and say it, we can see it for ourselves.

[Katerine459]

27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but no. As I demonstrated above, there have been plenty of secrets revealed with barely any hints at all, and certainly nobody voicing the truth for all to hear. Again, the Arryn murder: when Ned confronts Cersei about it in the godswood, nobody in-story questions why she would murder one hand who discovered her truth but then freely admit it to the next. The answer, of course, is that she didn't murder the first hand, but you had to wait five years and another two full novels before the truth came out.

The Red Wedding: absolutely no indication that Sybelle was in on it. She even sent her own son off to die at the Twins. Yet, out of the blue, the sudden reveal in Dance -- this time with a 10-year wait.

This is not directly related to the topic, but this confused me. I thought Sybelle wasn't in on the Red Wedding:

Quote

“I have two sons as well,” Lady Westerling reminded him. “Rollam is with me, but Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had known what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that.” There was a hint of reproach in her voice. “Raynald knew nought of any … of the understanding with your lord father. He may be a captive at the Twins.”

Or he may be dead. Walder Frey would not have known of the understanding either. “I will make inquiries. If Ser Raynald is still a captive, we’ll pay his ransom for you.” -- AFFC, Ch 44

I can't remember any reference to Sybell in ADWD at all, but I could be wrong.

I'm pretty sure I do remember Grey Wind hated many of the Westerlings except Jeyne, so there were in fact hints that they were treacherous.

[John Suburbs]

46 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

This is not directly related to the topic, but this confused me. I thought Sybelle wasn't in on the Red Wedding:

I can't remember any reference to Sybell in ADWD at all, but I could be wrong.

I'm pretty sure I do remember Grey Wind hated many of the Westerlings except Jeyne, so there were in fact hints that they were treacherous.

Quote

Feast, Jaime VII:

Jaime turned to the daughter. "I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I'll give him that. There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me."

Jaime nodded. Tywin Lannister was not a man to overlook such details.

"Unhand the girl," he said. "I'm done with her for now." As Jeyne fled sobbing down the stairs, he considered her mother. "House Westerling has its pardon, and your brother Rolph has been made Lord of Castamere. What else would you have of us?"

"Your lord father promised me worthy marriages for Jeyne and her younger sister. Lords or heirs, he swore to me, not younger sons or knights."

So Lady Sybell giving Jeyne moon tea, if not tansy tea, the whole time, which more than likely she learned to make from her mother, who learned it from her mother, Maggy the Frog. And from this we can logically conclude that Sybell also knows grandma Maggy's recipe for love potions, meaning that Robb did not have a simple lapse of judgement when he took Jeyne, he was drugged/magicked into doing it.

[Katerine459]

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So Lady Sybell giving Jeyne moon tea, if not tansy tea, the whole time, which more than likely she learned to make from her mother, who learned it from her mother, Maggy the Frog. And from this we can logically conclude that Sybell also knows grandma Maggy's recipe for love potions, meaning that Robb did not have a simple lapse of judgement when he took Jeyne, he was drugged/magicked into doing it.

Umm... what?

Where is this coming from? Where does it say that Sybell was related to Maggy the Frog? Not saying you're wrong, but this seems to be coming out of nowhere.

Many people know how to make Moon Tea. Pycelle made it for Marjaery. Lord Hoster had Lysa drink it. Apperently lots of milkmaids of the riverlands have been drinking it thanks to Tom of Sevenstreams. Sybell doesn't say where she got the Moon Tea, but it doesn't seem to be that hard to come by. According to the Wiki, it's made from "tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal," all of which are fairly easy to come by (well, maybe not the honey, but it's just a spoon of it).

But back to your main thesis (that a) Sybell was involved specifically with the Red Wedding plot, and b) there was no hint of it until AFFC)... what I see in the text indicates that Sybell was in league with the Lannisters, but she was kept in the dark about the RW specifically, and there were prior hints of the Westerling's allegiances in Grey Wind's behavior.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The simple fact is, as I've shown in countless examples, highborn children, nor even their parents, go off into the countryside without an escort. We don't need someone to come right out and say it, we can see it for ourselves.

I hope you aren't suggesting Cersei sent her golden boy into the dangerous countryside to be killed or robbed.

I am perfectly willing to accept that the adults were wildly negligent and Joffrey reckless with regards to their ride through the countryside.  So what?  Even if they were, there is no reason to believe that there was anything nefarious or malicious going on

Cersei has constantly resented her being kept out of political matters.  She would jump at the chance to spend some quality time with 2 councilors to discuss affairs of the realm.  Her meeting with Sansa and Arya can wait until tomorrow.  Telling Joffrey to entertain Sansa hardly seems exceptional.  They are betrothed, after all.  Probably figured they would spend the time wandering through camp.

Yeah, Sandor should have been with them, but Joffrey sent him away.  He can't be there 24/7.  As for Joffrey, he just wants to have a good time with his betrothed and get her to like him.  And it is just like Joffrey to blithely break every rule in the books, just because he can.  He wants to have fun and no silly rules are going to stop him.  

All this is what the text says happened.  There is no reason to believe in rape attempts, assassination attempts, or the like.  And the Hound didn't get into trouble because he was placed off duty; in Cersei's presence, if I recall correctly.

Of course, George has also apparently decided that none of the characters actually cares about the fact that two children went riding alone into the Riverlands (among the safest parts of the realm, at that time).  Therefore, I have decided that I don't really care, either.  If you have solid evidence of nefarious or malicious activity on anybody's part, please present it.  But I refuse to assume that their breaking the rules means anything more than the fact that rules were broken, and everybody moved on.

By the way, your examples of secrets revealed without hints are unconvincing.  Arryn's death was an ongoing mystery that consumed much of the first book, and was frequently mentioned in the next two books.  And Sybelle had no knowledge, much less involvement, in the Red Wedding, although she was plotting with Tywin about her daughter's marriage, something that was apparent early on.

[FictionIsntReal]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Plus there is the fact that there is no one to chaperone these two young people who are on the cusp of discovering their sexuality, and even a hint of suspicion regarding Sansa's virtue would be enough to call off the wedding, as we see later with Cersei's setup of Margaery. Sansa, returning from a day alone with Joffrey, drunk and disheveled, is all Cersei needs to make a huge stink.

Ha, there's a HUGE difference between Cersei trying to frame Margaery for sleeping with someone else while Tommen is too young to consummate a marriage vs Cersei's son sleeping with his own betrothed. Robb married Jeyne after he took her maidenhead, though his hand was already promised to the Freys. Tyrion did the same with Tysha, though his father had it annulled (because she was smallfolk rather than because she wasn't a virgin any more). Lysa hoped to do that with Littlefinger, but her father still thought he could manage a better marriage for her (and by his concept of "better", he was proved right). If it's Joffrey who deflowers Sansa, there's no way he's wriggling out of that betrothal. Robert, Ned & Cat would all insist on it, and your imaginary version of Cersei would be laughed out of the room if she tried to object.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 5/30/2018 at 3:10 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So what did Cersei think of Joffrey being betrothed to Sansa? Did she approve?

Cersei did not have her own PoV until book four FfC. Cersei showed up in other PoV's during the first three books so it it is difficult to know if Cersei approved or not.

In the below quote Cersei is quite angry with Sansa. It is after the death of Joffrey.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV   The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger/

Then Cersei has a remembrance during DwD.

A Dance with Dragons - Cersei II    It came to her suddenly that she had stood in this very spot before, on the day Lord Eddard Stark had lost his head. That was not supposed to happen. Joff was supposed to spare his life and send him to the Wall. Stark's eldest son would have followed him as Lord of Winterfell, but Sansa would have stayed at court, a hostage. Varys and Littlefinger had worked out the terms, and Ned Stark had swallowed his precious honor and confessed his treason to save his daughter's empty little head.         I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert's brothers.     Instead Joff had commanded that Stark's head be struck off, and Lord Slynt and Ser Ilyn Payne had hastened to obey. It was just there, the queen recalled, gazing at the spot. Janos Slynt had lifted Ned Stark's head by the hair as his life's blood flowed down the steps, and after that there was no turning back.

The way I read the above quote Cersei sorta sums up the story that begins in the book GoT.

To answer  @Angel Eyes

no. I dunna think Cersei approved of the betrothal of Joff and Sansa, but until someone comes up with something concrete it's speculation.

 

 

[Nittanian]

15 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Where does it say that Sybell was related to Maggy the Frog?

It's mentioned in ASOS and AFFC.

Quote

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ." (ASOS Tyrion III)

 

Quote

"She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord's father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don't recall the woman's name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy." (AFFC Cersei VIII)

 

Quote

The Westerlings were an old House, and proud, but Lady Sybell herself had been born a Spicer, from a line of upjumped merchants. Her grandmother had been some sort of half-mad witch woman from the east, he seemed to recall. And the Westerlings were impoverished. (AFFC Jaime VII)

So Mr. Merchant travels to Essos, trades in spices, and brings back a maegi. Their son, a wealthy merchant, becomes the founder of House Spicer after he is ennobled by Lord Tytos Lannister (Tywin's father). Lord Spicer's daughter is Sybell Spicer, who weds the impoverished Lord Gawen Westerling.

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Umm... what?

Where is this coming from? Where does it say that Sybell was related to Maggy the Frog? Not saying you're wrong, but this seems to be coming out of nowhere.

Quote

Sos, Tyrion II

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Marryn, but I had refused him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

And, of course:

Quote

FoC, Cersei VIII

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her.

 

21 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Many people know how to make Moon Tea. Pycelle made it for Marjaery. Lord Hoster had Lysa drink it. Apperently lots of milkmaids of the riverlands have been drinking it thanks to Tom of Sevenstreams. Sybell doesn't say where she got the Moon Tea, but it doesn't seem to be that hard to come by. According to the Wiki, it's made from "tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal," all of which are fairly easy to come by (well, maybe not the honey, but it's just a spoon of it).

But back to your main thesis (that a) Sybell was involved specifically with the Red Wedding plot, and b) there was no hint of it until AFFC)... what I see in the text indicates that Sybell was in league with the Lannisters, but she was kept in the dark about the RW specifically, and there were prior hints of the Westerling's allegiances in Grey Wind's behavior.

I don't know how many people know how to make it, but it's mentioned several times in the text that you usually get it from a woods witch. It's not something that people keep at the ready. A woods witch like Maggy would certainly know how to make it, so it is not unthinkable that Sybell would have the recipe as well, and for love potions too.

What hints? I don't seen anything in Storm that even remotely suggests that Sybell was involved. Meanwhile, there is plenty of counter-evidence. Grey Wind only react to Rolph, no one else even though the others are afraid of him. Sybell sent her own son and Gawen's heir, Raynald, to die at the Red Wedding. So I would love to see these hints that point specifically to Sybell's involvement.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

I hope you aren't suggesting Cersei sent her golden boy into the dangerous countryside to be killed or robbed.

I am perfectly willing to accept that the adults were wildly negligent and Joffrey reckless with regards to their ride through the countryside.  So what?  Even if they were, there is no reason to believe that there was anything nefarious or malicious going on

Yeah, Sandor should have been with them, but Joffrey sent him away.  He can't be there 24/7.  As for Joffrey, he just wants to have a good time with his betrothed and get her to like him.  And it is just like Joffrey to blithely break every rule in the books, just because he can.  He wants to have fun and no silly rules are going to stop him. 

No, she sent him to sully Sansa's honor. A can easily imagine that she also sent an outrider or three to keep an eye on them, just in case.

The only one who was wildly negligent was the Hound. He is Joffrey's sworn shield, charged with protecting him day and night. If Cersei was really upset by what happened, he first question should have been, where was Sandor? And since he apparently decided to take the day off just because Joffrey told him to back off of Sansa, he should at minimum have been dismissed, if not beheaded. She did nothing, which strongly indicates that this was the plan all along.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

Cersei has constantly resented her being kept out of political matters.  She would jump at the chance to spend some quality time with 2 councilors to discuss affairs of the realm.  Her meeting with Sansa and Arya can wait until tomorrow.  Telling Joffrey to entertain Sansa hardly seems exceptional.  They are betrothed, after all.  Probably figured they would spend the time wandering through camp.

She has no business discussing political matters with these three. Sansa is going to marry her son and Cersei herself will have to call her "your grace" someday. The realm is at peace and all the important people are with her and the king right now. What piddling little "political matters" could possible take precedence over forging a relationship and gauging the character of someone who Cersei will someday have to bow down to?

Entertaining her is not exceptional. Taking her off alone into strange countryside, unchaperoned and unprotected, is scandalous.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

All this is what the text says happened.  There is no reason to believe in rape attempts, assassination attempts, or the like.  And the Hound didn't get into trouble because he was placed off duty; in Cersei's presence, if I recall correctly.

And at the end of Storm, all the text said Cersei and/or Jaime killed Jon Arryn. To this day, all the text says Jon Snow is Ned Stark's bastard by some camp follower. The former is clearly wrong, and the latter most probably is.

No reason to rape her. Sansa loathes horses and horse-riding, so there is every reason to believe that her hymen was still intact that morning. The "reckless abandon" with which Joffrey leads her would have done for that, and when Joffrey accuses her of seducing him and they check her lady parts to confirm, there is the evidence.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

Of course, George has also apparently decided that none of the characters actually cares about the fact that two children went riding alone into the Riverlands (among the safest parts of the realm, at that time).  Therefore, I have decided that I don't really care, either.  If you have solid evidence of nefarious or malicious activity on anybody's part, please present it.  But I refuse to assume that their breaking the rules means anything more than the fact that rules were broken, and everybody moved on.

How do we know no one cared? Do we have their POV's? Cersei was the only one making a stink about the whole thing, and she ends up taking revenge on the wolf who wasn't even there. Not a word about the man responsible for Joffrey's safety. Robert just wants the whole thing to be over and forgotten, while Ned has been tearing his hair out because his daughter, a girl of nine, has been lost for four days. So for all we know, there could have been plenty of gossip as to why they were out together alone. And I'll again dispute your contention that this was all perfectly normal with facts: at no other time do we see highborn children, or even the highborn themselves, travel overland without protection. So sorry, but you opinion is just flat wrong.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

By the way, your examples of secrets revealed without hints are unconvincing.  Arryn's death was an ongoing mystery that consumed much of the first book, and was frequently mentioned in the next two books.  And Sybelle had no knowledge, much less involvement, in the Red Wedding, although she was plotting with Tywin about her daughter's marriage, something that was apparent early on.

The catspaw is still an ongoing mystery that consumed much of the first book and was frequently mentioned in the next two books. This is all part of that.

Please, show me the evidence that makes it apparent that Sybell was plotting with Tywin early on. She did not know about the RW, though, that much is true, unless she's lying:

Quote

"I have two sons as well," Lady Westerling reminded him. "Rollam is with me, but Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had know what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that."

 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Ha, there's a HUGE difference between Cersei trying to frame Margaery for sleeping with someone else while Tommen is too young to consummate a marriage vs Cersei's son sleeping with his own betrothed. Robb married Jeyne after he took her maidenhead, though his hand was already promised to the Freys. Tyrion did the same with Tysha, though his father had it annulled (because she was smallfolk rather than because she wasn't a virgin any more). Lysa hoped to do that with Littlefinger, but her father still thought he could manage a better marriage for her (and by his concept of "better", he was proved right). If it's Joffrey who deflowers Sansa, there's no way he's wriggling out of that betrothal. Robert, Ned & Cat would all insist on it, and your imaginary version of Cersei would be laughed out of the room if she tried to object.

I told you, Joffrey does not have to deflower Sansa in order to make the charges stick. He gets her drunk, rides her around like crazy all day, accuses her upon their return, and when they give her a pelvic exam to confirm, she has a broken hymen. The king does not have to be a virgin at his wedding, only the queen. And if Sansa is believed by the court to be a wanton slut they will never allow the marriage because there will forever be whispers and conspiracies that her children are not Joffrey's, which could ultimately weaken if not shatter the Baratheon dynasty. This is the exact same game Cersei plays with Maergary: shame her publicly, with her accuser the High Septon, no less, so she becomes ineligible to marry the king.

Robb married Jeyne out of honor, and the fact that he was under the influence of a love potion. Nobody but the Westerlings and maybe his bannermen knew he had taken her before marriage, and they're not going to say anything about it.

Tyrion is not a king, neither is Jon Arryn. His marriage to Lysa was politically necessary, and nobody else at the time knew that she was not pure.

 

[Nittanian]

As @Katerine459 said, there are indications that Sybell was in contact with Tywin but she had no knowledge of the Red Wedding.

Quote

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you." (ASOS Tyrion III)

 

Quote

"Mention was made of a match for him as well. A bride from Casterly Rock. Your lord father said that Raynald should have joy of him, if all went as we hoped."

Even from the grave, Lord Tywin's dead hand moves us all. "Joy is my late uncle Gerion's natural daughter. A betrothal can be arranged, if that is your wish, but any marriage will need to wait. Joy was nine or ten when last I saw her."

"His natural daughter?" Lady Sybell looked as if she had swallowed a lemon. "You want a Westerling to wed a bastard?"

"No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better." Jaime would happily have strangled the woman with her seashell necklace. Joy was a sweet child, albeit a lonely one; her father had been Jaime's favorite uncle. "Your daughter is worth ten of you, my lady. You'll leave with Edmure and Ser Forley on the morrow. Until then, you would do well to stay out of my sight." He shouted for a guardsman, and Lady Sybell went off with her lips pressed primly together. Jaime had to wonder how much Lord Gawen knew about his wife's scheming. How much do we men ever know? (AFFC Jaime VII)

Amusingly, Jaime assumes that "joy" refers to his cousin, Joy Hill. In actuality, Tywin negotiated for Joy to wed a Frey when she is older.

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The catspaw is still an ongoing mystery that consumed much of the first book and was frequently mentioned in the next two books.

GRRM stated that ASOS would "resolve the question of Bran and the dagger". From what I can recall, the mystery is not mentioned in AFFC or ADWD.

32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

and the fact that he was under the influence of a love potion.

We have no evidence that love potions work or that one was administered to Robb. I personally dislike the idea since it removes Robb's agency and detracts from his own involvement in his downfall.

[FictionIsntReal]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I told you, Joffrey does not have to deflower Sansa in order to make the charges stick. He gets her drunk, rides her around like crazy all day, accuses her upon their return, and when they give her a pelvic exam to confirm, she has a broken hymen. The king does not have to be a virgin at his wedding, only the queen. And if Sansa is believed by the court to be a wanton slut they will never allow the marriage because there will forever be whispers and conspiracies that her children are not Joffrey's, which could ultimately weaken if not shatter the Baratheon dynasty. This is the exact same game Cersei plays with Maergary: shame her publicly, with her accuser the High Septon, no less, so she becomes ineligible to marry the king.

Robb married Jeyne out of honor, and the fact that he was under the influence of a love potion. Nobody but the Westerlings and maybe his bannermen knew he had taken her before marriage, and they're not going to say anything about it.

Tyrion is not a king, neither is Jon Arryn. His marriage to Lysa was politically necessary, and nobody else at the time knew that she was not pure.

 

If Joffrey claims they had sex, then like I said they are definitely getting married. Robert is certainly not going to find it unacceptable, while Sansa's parents will insist. Cersei can complain, but will be ignored. If Joffrey claims that they didn't, but that Sansa tried to, she'd likely be chastised but that wouldn't prevent the marriage from going forward. I don't think Joffrey would be in much position to act offended about propriety, since he disregards rules and sent away the adult who would have chaperoned them. Sansa isn't getting a hymen exam, as she's not in Margaery's position of being accused of cheating on her under-age spouse. And if she actually did break her hymen riding horseriding with Joffrey (it didn't happen in the book and I don't know what guarantee Joffrey could have that it would happen that evening), the horse riding itself would diminish whatever value that evidence might have (as noted with Margaery). That's why it's so important with Margaery that Cersei tries to frame her for sleeping with specific men.

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

She has no business discussing political matters with these three. Sansa is going to marry her son and Cersei herself will have to call her "your grace" someday. The realm is at peace and all the important people are with her and the king right now. What piddling little "political matters" could possible take precedence over forging a relationship and gauging the character of someone who Cersei will someday have to bow down to?

Of course she has business discussing political matters.  She is the ranking person left in camp.  If she is like any other queen or first lady, she has projects and ideas close to her heart, and we know she has arranged appointments.  Eddard has commented on the number of Lannisters and their vassals in government.  I have absolutely no problem with the meeting. 

As for the meeting with Sansa and Arya, she can meet them tomorrow.  Sansa isn't likely to be insulted by the delay, and if she turns out to be, well, that's good info to know

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And at the end of Storm, all the text said Cersei and/or Jaime killed Jon Arryn. To this day, all the text says Jon Snow is Ned Stark's bastard by some camp follower. The former is clearly wrong, and the latter most probably is.

The text in GOT said that Lysa had accused the Lannisters of her murder, which she did, falsely.  He was murdered, though.

The text says that everyone assumes that Jon is Ned's bastard, not that he actually is.

In this case, we read the actual events as they are occurring.   And there is nothing in the text suggesting anything nefarious or malicious on the parts of Cersei or Joffrey.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

How do we know no one cared? Do we have their POV's? Cersei was the only one making a stink about the whole thing, and she ends up taking revenge on the wolf who wasn't even there. Not a word about the man responsible for Joffrey's safety. Robert just wants the whole thing to be over and forgotten, while Ned has been tearing his hair out because his daughter, a girl of nine, has been lost for four days. So for all we know, there could have been plenty of gossip as to why they were out together alone. And I'll again dispute your contention that this was all perfectly normal with facts: at no other time do we see highborn children, or even the highborn themselves, travel overland without protection. So sorry, but you opinion is just flat wrong.

You missed my point - again.  George is perfectly capable of putting words in somebody's mouth if he wants to.  Given that they have responsibility for security, both Jory and Barristan are well-placed to ask why two children are out alone.  That they (or anyone else) don't say anything suggests that George doesn't consider it important.

 

[Katerine459]

Question: If @John Suburbs is correct, does it break anything? Likewise, if he's wrong, does it break anything?

Does it change anything at all? If John's correct, it makes Cersei an even less reliable narrator... but other than that, does it change anything? Does it change any living characters (or dead ones, for that matter)? Could it possibly have an effect on the plot in the future? How would anything be proven, and would any of the characters even care at this late date, when a) the main player is dead, and b) whatever the plan was, it didn't work, and c) Sansa certainly had much bigger things to worry about since then? Does it change anything about the world? Does it flesh out or coalesce the world at all, like the revelation about the relationship between Sybell Spicer and Maggy did? Does it do anything?

If not, why would George sit on a mystery that only one reader even knows exists?

And why can't we just let that reader have his own reading?

[FictionIsntReal]

9 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Question: If @John Suburbs is correct, does it break anything? Likewise, if he's wrong, does it break anything?

Does it change anything at all? If John's correct, it makes Cersei an even less reliable narrator... but other than that, does it change anything? Does it change any living characters (or dead ones, for that matter)? Could it possibly have an effect on the plot in the future? How would anything be proven, and would any of the characters even care at this late date, when a) the main player is dead, and b) whatever the plan was, it didn't work, and c) Sansa certainly had much bigger things to worry about since then? Does it change anything about the world? Does it flesh out or coalesce the world at all, like the revelation about the relationship between Sybell Spicer and Maggy did? Does it do anything?

Much of the same logic would seem to apply to the catspaw sent after Bran. Joffrey is still alive when Tyrion concludes he was responsible, but he dies at the very shortly without any confirmation of Tyrion's suspicions. Jaime later comes to a similar conclusion, but this has no ramifications. I guess making Joffrey look worse can affect how the reader feels about his death, but he'd already done a lot of awful stuff.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

43 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Joffrey is still alive when Tyrion concludes he was responsible, but he dies at the very shortly without any confirmation of Tyrion's suspicions. 

Many readers are unsatisfied with the following confirmation, but there actually is confirmation in Sansa IV, SoS. 

Quote

 

"Now there are three." Joffrey undid his old swordbelt to don his new one. "You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces."

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. "Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain."

 

George is showing the reader that Joff is startled and surprised by the description of the dagger used in Bran's assassination attempt. 

No, we don't have Joff admitting it outright. But this is the confirmation George gave the reader after saying he would let us know in SoS. 

Whether or not readers choose to believe it, is a different issue.

51 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Jaime later comes to a similar conclusion

Jaime comes to the same conclusion in SoS.