OtherFromAnotherMother Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 11:32 AM, John Suburbs said: I think you are underestimating the cleverness of the author. Pity. I can't fathom why anyone would read an author whom they consider to be so hackneyed and unrealistic. One could say it is a pity that someone doesn't feel the story is good enough on it's own. One could say it is a pity that a fan would have to add their own fiction to the story. One could say they don't know why anyone would read an author whom they consider so basic and boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katerine459 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Much of the same logic would seem to apply to the catspaw sent after Bran. Joffrey is still alive when Tyrion concludes he was responsible, but he dies at the very shortly without any confirmation of Tyrion's suspicions. Jaime later comes to a similar conclusion, but this has no ramifications. I guess making Joffrey look worse can affect how the reader feels about his death, but he'd already done a lot of awful stuff. Fair point, so let's do a compare and contrast. "Who sent the catspaw" was a question that was asked by several characters. Beginning with Catelyn, then Cassel, then Ned, and finally Tyrion (after he got falsely accused of it). It was a big mystery, that consumed a fairly good chunk of AGOT, and set off a huge chain of events that set the Starks and the Lannisters firmly against each other, and ended with Ned getting wounded, and later imprisoned and killed. It also set up Littlefinger's character very nicely. To not resolve it would have a) left readers unsatisfied, and b) left readers wondering if Tyrion was actively lying to the readers (which would have been a bit of a fourth-wall break). It also added a certain dimension to Joffrey, just in time for his death. I don't know about you, but when I read Tyrion's theory about why Joffrey would do this, it was almost the first time it really hit me that Joffrey was a child... who, like any child, wants to impress his father. Not that it stopped me from rejoicing when he died - he was still a total monster with way too much unchecked power to destroy other people's lives - but it added a depth that his character didn't have before, and a degree of pathos to his death. So.. yeah, it accomplished stuff. It resolved a mystery that not only was explicitly stated to the readers by several characters, but was a huge plot point in AGOT, and it deepened my view of Joffrey's character (and altered my view of Robert's as well) into more than just a cartoon villain, just in time for him to die. John's theory, OTOH, is a theory (not even one with an element of mystery) which was never explicitly stated to the readers - you have to do some significant reading between the lines to even see anything there. And all I can think of that it would do, is make Cersei even more unreliable a narrator, as well as even more irrational (Joffrey was going to have to marry somebody - who better than a completely malleable highborn child who could solidify the allegiance of the North?) Other than that... I can think of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/15/2018 at 5:17 PM, Nittanian said: As @Katerine459 said, there are indications that Sybell was in contact with Tywin but she had no knowledge of the Red Wedding. Amusingly, Jaime assumes that "joy" refers to his cousin, Joy Hill. In actuality, Tywin negotiated for Joy to wed a Frey when she is older. OK, your first quote is cryptic at best, but at least it's something. The second one comes after Martin has revealed Sybell's role in the plot, so it hardly counts. So if we are going to accept Tywin saying "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter" as the clear-cut evidence that Sybell was in on the plot, then logic dictates that we should also accept Sansa saying "We're not supposed to leave the column, Father says so" as clear-cut evidence that they were, in fact, not supposed to leave the column. On 6/15/2018 at 5:17 PM, Nittanian said: GRRM stated that ASOS would "resolve the question of Bran and the dagger". From what I can recall, the mystery is not mentioned in AFFC or ADWD. Yes, the question of who sent the catspaw (Bran and the dagger) has been resolved. It was Joffrey. What's still up in the air is why he did it. And, sorry, but the speculations of Tyrion and Jaime in SoS are just that, speculation, and extremely weak ones at that. This give Joffrey a motive that is in perfect keeping with his character: naked self-interest based on a complete misunderstanding of the actual facts. On 6/15/2018 at 5:17 PM, Nittanian said: We have no evidence that love potions work or that one was administered to Robb. I personally dislike the idea since it removes Robb's agency and detracts from his own involvement in his downfall. Maggy the Frog made love potions and we can see from Cersei's PoV that the woman was no fraud. Her granddaughter knows how to make moon tea, so it's not a big stretch to imagine she knows how to make love potions as well. The only alternative is to believe that Sybell and Tywin's plan was to get Robb and Jeyne together and hope he breaks his vows -- not exactly a winning strategy considering what's at stake. I'm not sure why it's necessary to make Robb personally responsible for his own downfall. He's more of a tragic figure this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/15/2018 at 10:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said: If Joffrey claims they had sex, then like I said they are definitely getting married. Robert is certainly not going to find it unacceptable, while Sansa's parents will insist. Cersei can complain, but will be ignored. If Joffrey claims that they didn't, but that Sansa tried to, she'd likely be chastised but that wouldn't prevent the marriage from going forward. I don't think Joffrey would be in much position to act offended about propriety, since he disregards rules and sent away the adult who would have chaperoned them. Sansa isn't getting a hymen exam, as she's not in Margaery's position of being accused of cheating on her under-age spouse. And if she actually did break her hymen riding horseriding with Joffrey (it didn't happen in the book and I don't know what guarantee Joffrey could have that it would happen that evening), the horse riding itself would diminish whatever value that evidence might have (as noted with Margaery). That's why it's so important with Margaery that Cersei tries to frame her for sleeping with specific men. Sorry, but no. The whole realm would be in an uproar over the idea that the king should marry such a wanton, lustful tart. There must be no question that the heir to the throne must be of the king's body, which requires a queen who is as pure as the driven snow on her wedding night. Anything less poses the risk of a disputed ascension of the new king and a civil war. Like I said, you need to shed your 21st Century views on marriage and chastity and put yourself in the middle ages. If Joffrey declares that she seduced him and she denies it, you bet your boots she will be checked, just like Margaery was. More than likely, they would have Septa Mordane take part, Sansa's own chaperone. Sure, some may question whether it was the horseriding or not, but in the end it is Robert who casts judgement. Is he going to declare his own son and heir, the boy who will one day carry on the Baratheon dynasty, not only a liar but a raper? Not on your life, and Cersei knows this perfectly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/16/2018 at 12:15 AM, Nevets said: Of course she has business discussing political matters. She is the ranking person left in camp. If she is like any other queen or first lady, she has projects and ideas close to her heart, and we know she has arranged appointments. Eddard has commented on the number of Lannisters and their vassals in government. I have absolutely no problem with the meeting. No she doesn't. She is the queen, not the king. She has no governmental authority whatsoever. She holds no titles other than queen, she does not sit on any councils, let alone the Small Council. Her job is to run the royal household and raise the royal children. At best, she may have some small, personal matters to discuss with Renly, maybe with Barry, certainly not with Illyn (since she does not dispense justice; the king does), but none of this should take literally all day long. A few minutes at best. You're confusing Queen Cersei with Queen Regent Cersei. Once Robert dies and Joffrey is the underage king, she wields all the power of the Iron Throne in his name. Before that, she has nothing whatsoever to do with governing the realm any more than Dany can direct the activities of Drogo's khalasar. On 6/16/2018 at 12:15 AM, Nevets said: The text in GOT said that Lysa had accused the Lannisters of her murder, which she did, falsely. He was murdered, though. The text says that everyone assumes that Jon is Ned's bastard, not that he actually is. In this case, we read the actual events as they are occurring. And there is nothing in the text suggesting anything nefarious or malicious on the parts of Cersei or Joffrey. The text also has Jaime and Cersei discussing Jon Arryn's death and what Lysa may know of their incest. The text also has Ned accuse Cersei of killing Jon Arryn, which she does not deny and then readily admits that the children are Jaime's. The text also has Pycelle confirming that Cersei wanted Jon Arryn dead. The savvy reader would spot the extraordinarily careful way that Martin worded each of these conversations in order to make the lie appear to be the truth. But the text also makes no mention, not one single hint, that Littlefinger was the real killer, which undoubtedly many people at the time would have dismissed outright because "there is nothing in the text suggesting anything nefarious or malicious on the parts of" Lysa or Littlefinger. On 6/16/2018 at 12:15 AM, Nevets said: You missed my point - again. George is perfectly capable of putting words in somebody's mouth if he wants to. Given that they have responsibility for security, both Jory and Barristan are well-placed to ask why two children are out alone. That they (or anyone else) don't say anything suggests that George doesn't consider it important. No they are not. The Hound answers to the queen. He is her father's bannerman and he was brought in specifically at her request to act as Joffrey's personal guard. He is not a member of the Kings Guard, so Selmy has no authority over him nor is it his place to question his actions. Jory is not even a knight, so it would be highly improper for him to raise his voice. Beside the queen, the only one who could question the Hound's dereliction of duty would be the king. And if that conversation had not already taken place in the four days between the incident and Arya's return and he has not already forgiven the lapse, which is exactly the kind of thing Robert does all the time, then he wants to put the whole episode behind him and no one but the queen would dare bring it up. The fact that she does not, even though she is so upset by all of this that she calls for an innocent wolf to be killed, speaks volumes over what her real intentions were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/16/2018 at 12:32 AM, Katerine459 said: Question: If @John Suburbs is correct, does it break anything? Likewise, if he's wrong, does it break anything? Does it change anything at all? If John's correct, it makes Cersei an even less reliable narrator... but other than that, does it change anything? Does it change any living characters (or dead ones, for that matter)? Could it possibly have an effect on the plot in the future? How would anything be proven, and would any of the characters even care at this late date, when a) the main player is dead, and b) whatever the plan was, it didn't work, and c) Sansa certainly had much bigger things to worry about since then? Does it change anything about the world? Does it flesh out or coalesce the world at all, like the revelation about the relationship between Sybell Spicer and Maggy did? Does it do anything? If not, why would George sit on a mystery that only one reader even knows exists? And why can't we just let that reader have his own reading? Littlefinger is still alive. This would give you a true measure of how deeply he has been manipulating people and events from the very beginning. Cersei is also still alive, and it would give you a full measure of her depravity, and the co-dependent relationship between her and Joff. You could ask the same questions about the Arryn murder or the Sybell-Tywin conspiracy. The characters who died were still dead, the ones who were evil all along were still evil afterward. The plot had already moved forward so why bother dredge up the past? BTW, Lady Sybell was already known to be the granddaughter of a witch who sold potions before her involvement was revealed. It was one of those things where you had to look into the subtext to figure it out, rather than simply wait for Martin to make it painfully obvious. It could come to light in any number of ways. We have a 3EC in training who can see into the past. We have a whole information network consisting of birds and trees and virtually every living thing who can overhear conversations and report back to the sitting 3EC. We have a spymaster with little birds throughout the Red Keep who also specialize in overhearing private conversations. We have LF and Cersie perhaps making confessions hoping it will save their own necks. We have smart characters like Tyrion who can put two-and-two together. We have a maester who can do all kinds of unusual things with something called a glass candle. Or mayhaps it will never come to light and just becomes one of those things that allows a novel like this to live on through debate and discussion. We never got an explanation as to why Boramir fell prey to the ring so quickly but not the other human in the fellowship who was actually exposed to its presence much longer. I have a theory on that as well, if your interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 She most likely preferred Myrcella as a better match for Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/16/2018 at 11:43 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said: One could say it is a pity that someone doesn't feel the story is good enough on it's own. One could say it is a pity that a fan would have to add their own fiction to the story. One could say they don't know why anyone would read an author whom they consider so basic and boring. It is exceptionally good, for this very reason. What's basic and boring is to think that all secrets are just sitting there in plain sight and it requires neither effort nor imagination to see the incredible depth at which this story is layered. Trust me, this is far more interesting and enjoyable than just reading words on a page and waiting for Martin to spoon-feed you the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: It is exceptionally good, for this very reason. What's basic and boring is to think that all secrets are just sitting there in plain sight and it requires neither effort nor imagination to see the incredible depth at which this story is layered. Trust me, this is far more interesting and enjoyable than just reading words on a page and waiting for Martin to spoon-feed you the truth. As I have already stated, there are plenty of secrets remaining. This just doesn't happen to be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: As I have already stated, there are plenty of secrets remaining. This just doesn't happen to be one of them. Secrets where the answer is stated over and over again, in plain text, to the point where the reveal is merely a restatement of the obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: Secrets where the answer is stated over and over again, in plain text, to the point where the reveal is merely a restatement of the obvious? No. Although there probably will be some of those as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 5 hours ago, John Suburbs said: So if we are going to accept Tywin saying "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter" as the clear-cut evidence that Sybell was in on the plot, then logic dictates that we should also accept Sansa saying "We're not supposed to leave the column, Father says so" as clear-cut evidence that they were, in fact, not supposed to leave the column. Perhaps they weren't supposed to, but it wasn't a big enough deal for anyone (other than Sansa) to really care about. 5 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Yes, the question of who sent the catspaw (Bran and the dagger) has been resolved. It was Joffrey. What's still up in the air is why he did it. And, sorry, but the speculations of Tyrion and Jaime in SoS are just that, speculation, and extremely weak ones at that. This give Joffrey a motive that is in perfect keeping with his character: naked self-interest based on a complete misunderstanding of the actual facts. Is there a reason you label the identification of the suspect as "resolved" whereas the motive is "speculation" other than GRRM himself saying the former would be settled? Because the text just has Tyrion & Jaime speculating about both rather than the admissions we've got in other cases. 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Sorry, but no. The whole realm would be in an uproar over the idea that the king should marry such a wanton, lustful tart. There must be no question that the heir to the throne must be of the king's body, which requires a queen who is as pure as the driven snow on her wedding night. Anything less poses the risk of a disputed ascension of the new king and a civil war. Like I said, you need to shed your 21st Century views on marriage and chastity and put yourself in the middle ages. If Joffrey declares that she seduced him and she denies it, you bet your boots she will be checked, just like Margaery was. More than likely, they would have Septa Mordane take part, Sansa's own chaperone. Sure, some may question whether it was the horseriding or not, but in the end it is Robert who casts judgement. Is he going to declare his own son and heir, the boy who will one day carry on the Baratheon dynasty, not only a liar but a raper? Not on your life, and Cersei knows this perfectly well. The disputed ascent of the next king would be a big deal, but in this hypothetical it would be the crown prince himself who deflowered her, so any paternity would not be in dispute. And the parents may not like that they didn't wait for the wedding, but I challenge you to find any medieval betrothal between nobility that was called off because the betrothed themselves had sex with each other. Checking Sansa can only determine if she has a hymen or not. It does not show whether she acted to "seduce" him, or if he raped her, or if it was broken horseback riding. Sansa isn't married to Joffrey yet, so there's not even the possible charge of adultery, which wouldn't apply in this case anyway since Joffrey himself is supposed to be the one that deflowered her. Sansa's parents might interrogate her over this, but the Baratheon family would hardly count as a wronged party able to insist on anything given Joffrey's responsibility. Robert's less motivated by avoiding impugning his son than in avoiding conflict & responsibility. Trying to turn some adolescent sex into a conflict derailing one of the few things he's invested in (a marital alliance with the Stark's) isn't going to fly. If Joffrey actually did rape Sansa and she or her family complained, he might want to tamp that down and play devil's advocate for claims Joffrey might make about Sansa being willing, but that would all be in service of his plans proceeding like nothing happened. 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: No she doesn't. She is the queen, not the king. She has no governmental authority whatsoever. She holds no titles other than queen, she does not sit on any councils, let alone the Small Council. Her job is to run the royal household and raise the royal children. At best, she may have some small, personal matters to discuss with Renly, maybe with Barry, certainly not with Illyn (since she does not dispense justice; the king does), but none of this should take literally all day long. A few minutes at best. Aegon's sister-wives were political actors, as was Good Queen Alysanne. But I agree that any conversation with Ilyn Payne would be quite one-sided! One thing that just occurred to me: Margaery's hymen isn't checked during her betrothal to Joffrey, even as her claim to be a maiden widow is quite odd. I guess they figured the length of time since Renly's death would be sufficient to show whether she was carrying his child, and beyond that they didn't care at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 7 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Sorry, but no. The whole realm would be in an uproar over the idea that the king should marry such a wanton, lustful tart. There must be no question that the heir to the throne must be of the king's body, which requires a queen who is as pure as the driven snow on her wedding night. Anything less poses the risk of a disputed ascension of the new king and a civil war. Like I said, you need to shed your 21st Century views on marriage and chastity and put yourself in the middle ages. If Joffrey declares that she seduced him and she denies it, you bet your boots she will be checked, just like Margaery was. More than likely, they would have Septa Mordane take part, Sansa's own chaperone. Sure, some may question whether it was the horseriding or not, but in the end it is Robert who casts judgement. Is he going to declare his own son and heir, the boy who will one day carry on the Baratheon dynasty, not only a liar but a raper? Not on your life, and Cersei knows this perfectly well. There is one big difference between Margaery and Sansa. Margaery is 16 years old, an age at which sexual activity is a serious possibility. Sansa is 11 years old. The likelihood of her being sexually active (willingly, at least) at that age is roughly nil. The only way those two are having intercourse is if Joffrey forcibly rapes her. In that event, the wedding is off. Ned won't force her to marry her rapist. The only thing a physical examination would determine would be that she had intercourse, a finding that would do damage to Joffrey. Any suggestion that she led him on would be ridiculed. Joffrey would be in big trouble in any case. I don't think even he is that stupid. And given the likely resulting scandal, his marriage prospects would likely plummet severely. Any accusation not involving intercourse would likely go nowhere. I doubt an exam would find anything. Given her age, she would likely be intact, and any intercourse would likely cause visible damage (or be expected to). As for horseback riding, given the ease with which she kept up with Joffrey over untracked and wooded terrain, while she might disdain riding, she has obviously had some practice at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: No. Although there probably will be some of those as well. Gotcha, so your logic is to arbitrarily decide what Martin will or will not do with the rest of the story because you understand his mind so well. Glad we cleared that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Perhaps they weren't supposed to, but it wasn't a big enough deal for anyone (other than Sansa) to really care about. Is there a reason you label the identification of the suspect as "resolved" whereas the motive is "speculation" other than GRRM himself saying the former would be settled? Because the text just has Tyrion & Jaime speculating about both rather than the admissions we've got in other cases. The disputed ascent of the next king would be a big deal, but in this hypothetical it would be the crown prince himself who deflowered her, so any paternity would not be in dispute. And the parents may not like that they didn't wait for the wedding, but I challenge you to find any medieval betrothal between nobility that was called off because the betrothed themselves had sex with each other. Checking Sansa can only determine if she has a hymen or not. It does not show whether she acted to "seduce" him, or if he raped her, or if it was broken horseback riding. Sansa isn't married to Joffrey yet, so there's not even the possible charge of adultery, which wouldn't apply in this case anyway since Joffrey himself is supposed to be the one that deflowered her. Sansa's parents might interrogate her over this, but the Baratheon family would hardly count as a wronged party able to insist on anything given Joffrey's responsibility. Robert's less motivated by avoiding impugning his son than in avoiding conflict & responsibility. Trying to turn some adolescent sex into a conflict derailing one of the few things he's invested in (a marital alliance with the Stark's) isn't going to fly. If Joffrey actually did rape Sansa and she or her family complained, he might want to tamp that down and play devil's advocate for claims Joffrey might make about Sansa being willing, but that would all be in service of his plans proceeding like nothing happened. Aegon's sister-wives were political actors, as was Good Queen Alysanne. But I agree that any conversation with Ilyn Payne would be quite one-sided! One thing that just occurred to me: Margaery's hymen isn't checked during her betrothal to Joffrey, even as her claim to be a maiden widow is quite odd. I guess they figured the length of time since Renly's death would be sufficient to show whether she was carrying his child, and beyond that they didn't care at the time. Not a big enough deal that the crown prince of the realm could be killed for his sword? I think not. Sorry, try again. The rest of the evidence is equally clear: never, at no time, do highborns or their children travel overland without guards. Even Bran had Robb, Theon and four guards just for a quick ride around Winterfell. Dany had bloodriders escorting her around Vaes Dothrak. The motivations that both Jaime and Tyrion come up with Joff's actions are wholly out of character. The matter of "Bran and the catspaw" has been resolved: Joffrey did it. What is still lacking is a plausible reason why. No, once Sansa has been shown to be wanton and lustful, any children she might bear in the future will be suspect. In this age, there must be not even the slightest hint that the heir is not of the king's body, or the realm will bleed and your kingdom becomes vulnerable to invasion or, in this case, counter-rebellion. Queens who committed adultery were not merely shamed and banished from court; they were executed as traitors. Ever hear of Anne Boleyn? Katherine Howard?There is simply too much at stake to trust to chance. Sansa would be sent packing, no question about it. Sorry, but you are applying your 21st Century mindset to a medieval culture. Innocent or not, a soiled Sansa cannot become queen. It would produce too much instability in the realm. It might help you when reading Martin to bone up on what life and attitudes were really like back in the middle ages rather then just assuming it was exactly like it is today. Rhaella and Visenya handled much of the day-to-day governance of the realm, because Aegon had raised them to be his counsellors. Same with Alysanne. Robert has done no such thing with Cersei. She has no role whatsoever in the governance of the realm. There is absolutely nothing of import to discuss with the "good councilors", and any trivial matters or court gossip would certainly not take precedence over face-time with the woman who will one day replace her as queen. When marrying Joffrey, no one is disputing Margaery's innocence. She claims the marriage to Renly was never consummated, and this is attested to by her family and accepted by the crown. So there was no accusation, no denial. Osney does make the accusation before the marriage to Tommen, and Margaery is immediately seized and examined. And what does Cersei think to herself when Septa Moelle reports this to the court? "I do hope the little queen and her cousins enjoyed those rides of theirs." When Sansa is accused by Joffrey, the exact same thing would happen, the exact same evidence would be found and Robert would pass final judgement. He is not going to name his son and heir a liar and a raper. No way, no how, not ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 15 hours ago, Nevets said: There is one big difference between Margaery and Sansa. Margaery is 16 years old, an age at which sexual activity is a serious possibility. Sansa is 11 years old. The likelihood of her being sexually active (willingly, at least) at that age is roughly nil. The only way those two are having intercourse is if Joffrey forcibly rapes her. In that event, the wedding is off. Ned won't force her to marry her rapist. The only thing a physical examination would determine would be that she had intercourse, a finding that would do damage to Joffrey. Any suggestion that she led him on would be ridiculed. Joffrey would be in big trouble in any case. I don't think even he is that stupid. And given the likely resulting scandal, his marriage prospects would likely plummet severely. Any accusation not involving intercourse would likely go nowhere. I doubt an exam would find anything. Given her age, she would likely be intact, and any intercourse would likely cause visible damage (or be expected to). As for horseback riding, given the ease with which she kept up with Joffrey over untracked and wooded terrain, while she might disdain riding, she has obviously had some practice at it. Nobody knows what Sansa is really like outside her own family. Nobody knows her character. The crown prince is accusing her of seduction and her own body is evidence. The only way Joffrey would be pinned as a forcible rapist is if Robert judges it so, and that is simply not going to happen. No way, no how, not ever, and Cersei knows it. She undoubtedly has ridden before, but as she states in the very same chapter: Quote "I hate riding," Sansa said fervently. "All it does it get you soiled and dusty and sore." And later, when Cersei hears that Maegary has been taken and examined by the faith: Quote I do hope the little queen and her cousins enjoyed those rides of theirs. So, once again, I am giving you actual quotes from the actual characters in the actual books to support my contentions. You've not given me anything. Not once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Gotcha, so your logic is to arbitrarily decide what Martin will or will not do with the rest of the story because you understand his mind so well. Glad we cleared that up. Nope. I just know what you are proposing is not part of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: Not a big enough deal that the crown prince of the realm could be killed for his sword? I think not. Sorry, try again. The rest of the evidence is equally clear: never, at no time, do highborns or their children travel overland without guards. Even Bran had Robb, Theon and four guards just for a quick ride around Winterfell. Dany had bloodriders escorting her around Vaes Dothrak. During The Hedge Knight, Egg wanders off with Duncan. His family is upset at him for doing this, but in the end his father chooses to have him squire for Duncan with no household guards. 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: The motivations that both Jaime and Tyrion come up with Joff's actions are wholly out of character. The matter of "Bran and the catspaw" has been resolved: Joffrey did it. What is still lacking is a plausible reason why. I actually agree that it sounds out of character. But the same logic applies for the designation of Joffrey as the culprit as it does for their view of his motivation. I just chalk it up to the story being written that way. 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: No, once Sansa has been shown to be wanton and lustful, any children she might bear in the future will be suspect. In this age, there must be not even the slightest hint that the heir is not of the king's body, or the realm will bleed and your kingdom becomes vulnerable to invasion or, in this case, counter-rebellion. Queens who committed adultery were not merely shamed and banished from court; they were executed as traitors. Ever hear of Anne Boleyn? Katherine Howard?There is simply too much at stake to trust to chance. Sansa would be sent packing, no question about it. Sorry, but you are applying your 21st Century mindset to a medieval culture. Innocent or not, a soiled Sansa cannot become queen. It would produce too much instability in the realm. It might help you when reading Martin to bone up on what life and attitudes were really like back in the middle ages rather then just assuming it was exactly like it is today. Of course I've heard of them, they were all accused of adultery. I would perhaps take you seriously in your claims to have a more accurate understanding of medieval norms if you could find ONE example of a betrothal being annulled for the reason specified. As it is, you are the one who comes across as anachronistic. 2 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Rhaella and Visenya handled much of the day-to-day governance of the realm, because Aegon had raised them to be his counsellors. Same with Alysanne. Robert has done no such thing with Cersei. She has no role whatsoever in the governance of the realm. There is absolutely nothing of import to discuss with the "good councilors", and any trivial matters or court gossip would certainly not take precedence over face-time with the woman who will one day replace her as queen. Robert was uninterested in the responsibilities of governance, and one consequence is that he largely left it up to his council. But another consequence was that he let Cersei have her way when it came to many political appointments. Renly was trying to replace her with Margaery because of the enmity all that Lannister influence had created. Cersei has already enmeshed herself in the politics of King's Landing, even if Robert wasn't pro-active in ensuring that. 2 hours ago, John Suburbs said: When marrying Joffrey, no one is disputing Margaery's innocence. She claims the marriage to Renly was never consummated, and this is attested to by her family and accepted by the crown. So there was no accusation, no denial. Osney does make the accusation before the marriage to Tommen, and Margaery is immediately seized and examined. And what does Cersei think to herself when Septa Moelle reports this to the court? "I do hope the little queen and her cousins enjoyed those rides of theirs." When Sansa is accused by Joffrey, the exact same thing would happen, the exact same evidence would be found and Robert would pass final judgement. He is not going to name his son and heir a liar and a raper. No way, no how, not ever. Tommen married Margaery in Cersei's third chapter of A Feast for Crows. Cersei comes up with the plot to use Osney to frame Margaery for adultery in her next chapter. Cersei doesn't actually order Osney to follow through with this plan until her ninth chapter, well after the marriage, make Margaery an alleged adulterer rather than fornicator. That would NOT apply to Sansa here. As already noted, Robert doesn't have any pre-commitment to his son being considered honest. With what actually happened, there was a he-said she-said between Joffrey & Arya and in the absence of anything else (because Sansa plead ignorance) he just thought they should move on with each parent disciplining their own child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 2 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Nobody knows what Sansa is really like outside her own family. Nobody knows her character. The crown prince is accusing her of seduction and her own body is evidence. The only way Joffrey would be pinned as a forcible rapist is if Robert judges it so, and that is simply not going to happen. No way, no how, not ever, and Cersei knows it. She undoubtedly has ridden before, but as she states in the very same chapter: And later, when Cersei hears that Maegary has been taken and examined by the faith: So, once again, I am giving you actual quotes from the actual characters in the actual books to support my contentions. You've not given me anything. Not once. When she arrives at Cersei's tent for her meeting, she sees a crowd. "what's happening, she asked a squire she knew. The girl's apparently made friends in the Lannister camp. The Royal party spent at least a month at Winterfell. Unless she hid in her room, they would have seen plenty of Sansa, and gotten an idea of what she is like. And any accusation of rape by an 11 year old, especially if backed up by an exam showing intercourse, is going to be generally believed, absent pretty extraordinary evidence. Even if Robert failed to take action, Joffrey's name would be blackened. Speaking of quotes, do you have anything that backs your central contention that there was a plot to either sexually assault or murder Sansa? If so, I would dearly love to see them. (If you have already presented them, I apologize. It's been a long and tangled thread.) Come to think of it, do you even have anything showing that either Cersei or Joffrey had it in for her at all during this period? Because all I have found is a conspicuous lack of such material. This whole theory smacks of being pulled from thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, Nevets said: When she arrives at Cersei's tent for her meeting, she sees a crowd. "what's happening, she asked a squire she knew. The girl's apparently made friends in the Lannister camp. The Royal party spent at least a month at Winterfell. And those friends certainly did her a lot of good in King’s Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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