Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Nope. 

I just know what you are proposing is not part of the story. 

Based on fact? or opinion?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Based on fact? or opinion?

Based on the text.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

During The Hedge Knight, Egg wanders off with Duncan. His family is upset at him for doing this, but in the end his father chooses to have him squire for Duncan with no household guards.

Yes, Duncan, a knight, a very large and powerful knight, with a sword and armor and at least a rudimentary understanding of how to use them. Probably not the best choice, but Egg is dressed as a common squire, not done up in all his royal finery. Plus, he is also not the crown prince. He is the fourth son of a fourth son; important, but not so important that he gets a Kings Guard and a squad of soldiers. But he does get protection.

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I actually agree that it sounds out of character. But the same logic applies for the designation of Joffrey as the culprit as it does for their view of his motivation. I just chalk it up to the story being written that way.

Of course I've heard of them, they were all accused of adultery. I would perhaps take you seriously in your claims to have a more accurate understanding of medieval norms if you could find ONE example of a betrothal being annulled for the reason specified. As it is, you are the one who comes across as anachronistic.

The story is not finished. It is chock full of examples in which things are written to appear one way in one book but then prove to be completely different in another. That's what good writers do. If everything is exactly as it seems all through the story, you'd have a very boring, predictable story.

Tough call finding medieval ladies who were almost queens but failed their virginity tests. They tend not to be remembered, but I'll give it a try and get back to you

In the meantime, there are plenty of medieval texts that prove these tests were common and cause for betrothals to be cancelled:

De Secretis Mulierum

The Trotula

The Book of Women's Love

20 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert was uninterested in the responsibilities of governance, and one consequence is that he largely left it up to his council. But another consequence was that he let Cersei have her way when it came to many political appointments. Renly was trying to replace her with Margaery because of the enmity all that Lannister influence had created. Cersei has already enmeshed herself in the politics of King's Landing, even if Robert wasn't pro-active in ensuring that.

Nonsense. Cersei brought in the Hound and maybe influenced Robert to accept Preston Greenfield to the KG. But she doesn't make these appointments, Robert does. And as Tyrion notes, virtually 9/10ths of the government are Littlefinger's men: The Keepers of the Keys, the King's Counter, the King's Scales, the officers in charge of the mints, harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors...

Can you name one single appointment that Cersei made, not as queen regent but as queen?

Renly was trying to get rid of Cersei because she is a condescending, meddlesome b, and the Tyrells want their blood sitting the Iron Throne, not Lannister's. So, are you saying that she needed to discuss all of her secret plotting and scheming with her co-conspirators, Selmy, Renly and Ilyn?

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tommen married Margaery in Cersei's third chapter of A Feast for Crows. Cersei comes up with the plot to use Osney to frame Margaery for adultery in her next chapter. Cersei doesn't actually order Osney to follow through with this plan until her ninth chapter, well after the marriage, make Margaery an alleged adulterer rather than fornicator. That would NOT apply to Sansa here. As already noted, Robert doesn't have any pre-commitment to his son being considered honest. With what actually happened, there was a he-said she-said between Joffrey & Arya and in the absence of anything else (because Sansa plead ignorance) he just thought they should move on with each parent disciplining their own child.

Tommen and Margaery are "wed", but since Tommen is only nine and the marriage will not be consummated for years, it can easily be undone if and when Margaery is proven to be unfit. Whether you want to call it adultery or fornication is irrelevant. The only difference between this situation and Joffrey-Sansa is that they are not wed yet. But the same rules apply: if the bride is deemed to be impure, the betrothal is over.

Robert admits to Ned later that he knew all along that Joffrey was lying but he cannot brand his own son and heir, the boy who will one day be king, a liar. If he can't even do that, there is no way he is going to brand him a raper.

 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Nevets said:

When she arrives at Cersei's tent for her meeting, she sees a crowd.

"what's happening, she asked a squire she knew.

The girl's apparently made friends in the Lannister camp.  The Royal party spent at least a month at Winterfell.  Unless she hid in her room, they would have seen plenty of Sansa, and gotten an idea of what she is like.  And any accusation of rape by an 11 year old, especially if backed up by an exam showing intercourse, is going to be generally believed, absent pretty extraordinary evidence.   Even if Robert failed to take action, Joffrey's name would be blackened. 

Speaking of quotes, do you have anything that backs your central contention that there was a plot to either sexually assault or murder Sansa?  If so, I would dearly love to see them.  (If you have already presented them, I apologize.  It's been a long and tangled thread.)  Come to think of it, do you even have anything showing that either Cersei or Joffrey had it in for her at all during this period?  Because all I have found is a conspicuous lack of such material.   This whole theory smacks of being pulled from thin air.

Of course she knows people, and they know who she is as well. But no one knows her intimately enough to be sure she is not a wanton slut. Joffrey is a lying little snot but he presents himself as a courteous young prince. Littlefinger is an amiable humble servant, but he's really a conniving murderer. The court is full of people who pretend to be the exact opposite of who they really are.

Plus there is the fact that she'll be stinking of wine and have all the signs of recent sexual intercourse. Do you honestly think the opinion of some lowly squire who barely knows her is going to overrule all that evidence and the word of the crown prince of the realm? Be serious.

I've given you all the evidence I've found so far: Sansa's quote about not leaving the column, the fact that no highborn is every out in the open without a tail, the drinking, the wild horseride… plus the fact that Cersei is suspicious to the point of paranoia about Ned and his intentions and this marriage is his wedge into the royal family. If you have to wait until the whole thing is revealed plain as day, that's fine. But don't try to argue that this is an idea without textual evidence or does not conform to the firmly established characterizations of the principal players. There is more to see here than there is for RLJ.

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course she knows people, and they know who she is as well. But no one knows her intimately enough to be sure she is not a wanton slut. Joffrey is a lying little snot but he presents himself as a courteous young prince. Littlefinger is an amiable humble servant, but he's really a conniving murderer. The court is full of people who pretend to be the exact opposite of who they really are.

Plus there is the fact that she'll be stinking of wine and have all the signs of recent sexual intercourse. Do you honestly think the opinion of some lowly squire who barely knows her is going to overrule all that evidence and the word of the crown prince of the realm? Be serious.

I've given you all the evidence I've found so far: Sansa's quote about not leaving the column, the fact that no highborn is every out in the open without a tail, the drinking, the wild horseride… plus the fact that Cersei is suspicious to the point of paranoia about Ned and his intentions and this marriage is his wedge into the royal family. If you have to wait until the whole thing is revealed plain as day, that's fine. But don't try to argue that this is an idea without textual evidence or does not conform to the firmly established characterizations of the principal players. There is more to see here than there is for RLJ.

She's 11.....  This has gone off the rails.  And to the bolded, really?  How is any of this textual evidence?  You're taking circumstances that could all be attributed to negligence by Robert and spoiling by Cersei and making an insane leap with it.  

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Based on the text.

So that would be the same text that hid the truth about the Arryn murder, Lady Sybell, Whitebeard ... and is still hiding it about Jon's heritage. Gotcha.

[John Suburbs]

5 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

She's 11.....  This has gone off the rails.  And to the bolded, really?  How is any of this textual evidence?  You're taking circumstances that could all be attributed to negligence by Robert and spoiling by Cersei and making an insane leap with it.  

Girls can be just as wicked and lustful as boys.

"We're not supposed to leave the column, Father said so." Direct evidence specific to this very occasion that they were not supposed to leave the column, coupled with all the other incidences in which even armed and armored kings and lords do not leave the column, or even their own castles, without a tail.

Even negligence is punishable when the crown prince's life is at stake. No consequences for the Hound, but Cersei is so incensed that she calls for the killing of the wolf that wasn't even there. Sorry, but no.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So that would be the same text that hid the truth about the Arryn murder, Lady Sybell, Whitebeard ... and is still hiding it about Jon's heritage. Gotcha.

What you are propoing is not comparable to these situations.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

but Cersei is so incensed that she calls for the killing of the wolf that wasn't even there. Sorry, but no.

Cersei is not upset that they were out alone. She is upset that Joff was hurt.

[Tagganaro]

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Girls can be just as wicked and lustful as boys.

Again, she's 11.  She is not even sexually active yet, and if the idea is to discredit someone as a "wanton slut" , it doesn't quite work on an 11 year old.

Quote

"We're not supposed to leave the column, Father said so." Direct evidence specific to this very occasion that they were not supposed to leave the column, coupled with all the other incidences in which even armed and armored kings and lords do not leave the column, or even their own castles, without a tail.

The only thing that this is direct evidence to is that they weren't supposed to leave the column.  How you are leaping to some kind of plot to rape and discredit Sansa when we have Cersei's POV and not once does she mention this is beyond me. 

Quote

Even negligence is punishable when the crown prince's life is at stake. No consequences for the Hound, but Cersei is so incensed that she calls for the killing of the wolf that wasn't even there. Sorry, but no.

Now what does this have to do with anything?  Cersei calls for the wolf's head because she is afraid of the wolves and they proved her point when Nymeria attacked Joffrey.  We have no idea, maybe the Hound was reprimanded but we know for a fact that the Hound doesn't spend every waking moment tailing Joffrey (on account of seeing him multiple times not being with Joffrey).  What we do know is that Sansa is a dutiful daughter while Joffrey is an arrogant spoiled little shit who can get away with anything...that's all this shows.  

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course she knows people, and they know who she is as well. But no one knows her intimately enough to be sure she is not a wanton slut. Joffrey is a lying little snot but he presents himself as a courteous young prince. Littlefinger is an amiable humble servant, but he's really a conniving murderer. The court is full of people who pretend to be the exact opposite of who they really are.

Plus there is the fact that she'll be stinking of wine and have all the signs of recent sexual intercourse. Do you honestly think the opinion of some lowly squire who barely knows her is going to overrule all that evidence and the word of the crown prince of the realm? Be serious.

I've given you all the evidence I've found so far: Sansa's quote about not leaving the column, the fact that no highborn is every out in the open without a tail, the drinking, the wild horseride… plus the fact that Cersei is suspicious to the point of paranoia about Ned and his intentions and this marriage is his wedge into the royal family. If you have to wait until the whole thing is revealed plain as day, that's fine. But don't try to argue that this is an idea without textual evidence or does not conform to the firmly established characterizations of the principal players. There is more to see here than there is for RLJ.

So, we're going from Cersei being paranoid about Ned to plotting to deflower his daughter and claim she is a wanton?  That is quite a leap of logic!  Even Cersei is smart enough to know that any such accusation, especially if rape was charged, which it would be, would likely damage Joffrey at least a much as Sansa.   Cersei is not that stupid.

If an 11 year old accuses anybody of rape, and intercourse is confirmed, the presumption will be that she is innocent in the absence of evidence of wanton or promiscuous behavior, which there isn't here.  Joffrey would likely be let off due to  his age and status, but his reputation would be in tatters and marriage prospects severely diminished, and Cersei is smart enough to know that.  Also, even if she doesn't like, she has several years to figure something out.  Something that makes a whole lot more sense than this. 

Everything about this scene is far better explained as being two kids having fun and breaking rules, as kids are wont to do, than anything like what you are suggesting.  And the lack of textual evidence of anybody being concerned about them being out alone, or that Cersei has any problem with Sansa as her son's consort, seriously undercuts your case.  

[FictionIsntReal]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tough call finding medieval ladies who were almost queens but failed their virginity tests. They tend not to be remembered, but I'll give it a try and get back to you

In the meantime, there are plenty of medieval texts that prove these tests were common and cause for betrothals to be cancelled:

De Secretis Mulierum

The Trotula

The Book of Women's Love

Your first two links are the same. The last concerns a Hebrew book, which is actually stated to have a different stance toward sexuality than medieval books of other languages (unsurprising as it would reflect a different religious tradition). Still no evidence of any betrothal (whether to a king or the most minor of nobles) being broken because the betrothed jumped the gun with each other.

In addition to the Kingsguard Cersei also got two Lannisters squiring for Robert, which is how her successful plot to kill him worked. But you're right that Littlefinger has done the most to take over the bureaucracy.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So, are you saying that she needed to discuss all of her secret plotting and scheming with her co-conspirators, Selmy, Renly and Ilyn?

Why does it have to be "secret plotting"? It's no secret that Cersei has intervened in the composition of the kingsguard, and it wouldn't be at all odd for her to talk about them with their lord commander (who is also tasked with guarding her). Renly is her brother in law and master of her husband's ancestral home, which Tommen could well inherit if Renly doesn't have an heir. Nothing inexplicable about her wanting to talk to him, particularly as he's not the prickly Stannis type who repels everyone around him. Over the long journey she'll have plenty of time to talk to Sansa, but since the honor guard just arrived it's polite to meet with them first.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tommen and Margaery are "wed", but since Tommen is only nine and the marriage will not be consummated for years, it can easily be undone if and when Margaery is proven to be unfit. Whether you want to call it adultery or fornication is irrelevant. The only difference between this situation and Joffrey-Sansa is that they are not wed yet. But the same rules apply: if the bride is deemed to be impure, the betrothal is over.

Tommen & Margaery are legally wed, complete with a bedding if not a consummation. It's not "irrelevant" if it's adultery, at that point it would be considered treason against the king and punishable by death. There are multiple differences with Joffrey & Sansa: not only are they not wed, but the person she's accused of sleeping with in this hypothetical is Joffrey himself! He'd be like the defendant who murdered his parents and begged the court's mercy due to being an orphan.

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert admits to Ned later that he knew all along that Joffrey was lying but he cannot brand his own son and heir, the boy who will one day be king, a liar. If he can't even do that, there is no way he is going to brand him a raper.

Joffrey was in a dispute with Arya, with Sansa refusing to back up her sister. Robert's goal is to sweep this under the rug and act like nothing happened. Complying with Cersei's demand to kill Lady costs him nothing, and he doesn't think she should have a direwolf for a pet anyway. Breaking off a marriage would be costly to him, and Ned (whom Robert still wants as hand) wouldn't be as accepting.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What you are propoing is not comparable to these situations.

Fully comparable. You just have the benefit of hindsight for everything that was hidden before but has now been revealed. Sit tight, it will all come out -- if this theory is correct, which it may very well not be.

22 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Cersei is not upset that they were out alone. She is upset that Joff was hurt.

He wouldn't have been hurt if he had is dog with him. Why is she taking it out on the wolf who was not even there when the guard who has sworn to protect Joff from all harm at all times was off daydreaming?

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Again, she's 11.  She is not even sexually active yet, and if the idea is to discredit someone as a "wanton slut" , it doesn't quite work on an 11 year old.

She is drunk and appears to be deflowered. That's all they need to make the charges stick. This is Cersei we're talking about here. She's not going to let a little thing like age get in her way.

Elinor, Megga and Alla Tyrell were, "all close to Sansa's age". Barely a year after the Trident, and with Alla still a maid not yet flowered, they were all dragged away by the faith on morals charges -- all due to the plottings of Cersie Lannister.

22 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

The only thing that this is direct evidence to is that they weren't supposed to leave the column.  How you are leaping to some kind of plot to rape and discredit Sansa when we have Cersei's POV and not once does she mention this is beyond me. 

They weren't supposed to leave the column. The fact that they did leave the column and that Joffrey's sworn shield, the man who has vowed to protect the crown prince from all harm at all times even at the cost of his own life, was not there but received no punishment for this gross dereliction of duty is about as strong a hint as you'll get with Martin that this whole thing was a setup. Cersei's excuse that she has matters to discuss with "the good councilors" is equally sketchy. What matters of import can she possibly need to discuss with Renly, Selmy and Illyn Payne that will take all day long? What could possibly be more important to Cersei than face-time with the girl that she will one day bend her knee to and call "Your Grace"?

22 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Now what does this have to do with anything?  Cersei calls for the wolf's head because she is afraid of the wolves and they proved her point when Nymeria attacked Joffrey.  We have no idea, maybe the Hound was reprimanded but we know for a fact that the Hound doesn't spend every waking moment tailing Joffrey (on account of seeing him multiple times not being with Joffrey).  What we do know is that Sansa is a dutiful daughter while Joffrey is an arrogant spoiled little shit who can get away with anything...that's all this shows.  

The Hound can leave Joffrey in the confines of the Red Keep. He can leave him when he is going directly to his mother, who will undoubtedly have her own escort back to the castle. He cannot leave him to go riding off all by himself across strange country wearing enough gold and jewelry and a golden-pommeled longsword the represents enough wealth for even an honest smallfolk to commit murder in order to live a life of luxury beyond their wildest dreams. Robert and Ned, two of the fiercest warriors in the realm, both armed and armored, have a full tail when leaving the column. In example after example, as I've posted above, highborns never leave the confines of their castles without protection. The idea that in this one instance only that it was perfectly OK for Joff and Sansa, who are utterly defenseless despite Joffrey's pretty sword, to ride off alone is patently absurd.

[BlackLightning]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, John Suburbs said:

Robert admits to Ned later that he knew all along that Joffrey was lying but he cannot brand his own son and heir, the boy who will one day be king, a liar. If he can't even do that, there is no way he is going to brand him a raper.

 

Actually, I've never really bought that. I just thought it was another one of Robert's excuses.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

If there ever was a time to call a prince, lordling or any kind of a heir a liar, it is while they are still a prince/lordling/heir. Especially if they are not even at the age of majority.

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

He wouldn't have been hurt if he had is dog with him. Why is she taking it out on the wolf who was not even there when the guard who has sworn to protect Joff from all harm at all times was off daydreaming?

 

I absolutely agree.

But again, this undermines Robert as a sincere, trustworthy person (why would he allow Cersei to order the execution of a completely innocent animal on the basis of a lie that he knew his son told when the Hound was not where he needed to be). Not only that but it proves that Cersei and the Hound were up to something AND it shows us another key example that Ned Stark was deeply flawed and completely out-of-his-league.

I can understand Sansa or Arya not picking up on these details. But Eddard Stark, a grown 30something man who had spent the last ~15 years governing half of the country?

The saddest thing about it is that Eddard never really loved his lesson. He went on to miss other extremely important, life-and-death details.

People love to go on and on about how dumb Sansa/Robb/Catelyn/Jon/etc. are when Ned is the one who is dumb as rocks. He's nowhere near Victarion-levels of stupidity but he's pretty damn close.

[Springwatch]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Elinor, Megga and Alla Tyrell were, "all close to Sansa's age". Barely a year after the Trident, and with Alla still a maid not yet flowered, they were all dragged away by the faith on morals charges -- all due to the plottings of Cersie Lannister.

Cersei set up a lot of false testimony to support these claims. She did not do this at the Trident.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

So, we're going from Cersei being paranoid about Ned to plotting to deflower his daughter and claim she is a wanton?  That is quite a leap of logic!  Even Cersei is smart enough to know that any such accusation, especially if rape was charged, which it would be, would likely damage Joffrey at least a much as Sansa.   Cersei is not that stupid.

It is not a leap in logic. In Cersei's view, Sansa is the wedge that Ned is using to worm his way into political power. The very first time we hear her speak we understand the depth of her paranoia:

Quote

"Don't you see the danger this puts us in?" the woman said. "Robert loves the man like a brother."

snip

"Don't play the fool. Stannis and Renly are one thing, and Eddard Stark is quite another. Robert will listen to Stark. Damn them both. I should have insisted that he name you, but I was certain Stark would refuse."

snip

"Lord Eddard has never taken any interest in anything that happened south of the Neck," the woman said. "Never. I tell you, he means to move against us. Why else would he leave the seat of his power?"

There is no threat to Joffrey's reputation as long as he sticks to his story. Robert is not going to name his son and heir a raper and a liar and jeopardize the nascent Baratheon dynasty in the process. It will be Sansa's reputation that gets tarnished, not Joffrey's.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

If an 11 year old accuses anybody of rape, and intercourse is confirmed, the presumption will be that she is innocent in the absence of evidence of wanton or promiscuous behavior, which there isn't here.  Joffrey would likely be let off due to  his age and status, but his reputation would be in tatters and marriage prospects severely diminished, and Cersei is smart enough to know that.  Also, even if she doesn't like, she has several years to figure something out.  Something that makes a whole lot more sense than this. 

Hardly. It is evident you know nothing about medieval mores and attitudes. From the High Sparrow:

Quote

"The wickedness of widows is well-known, and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men."

Notice how men are the innocent victims here but women are wicked and wanton? Sansa, drunk and seemingly defiled, with Joffrey accusing her of seduction, would play perfectly well with this widespread belief. And again, Robert would have no choice but to absolve his son and attaint Sansa, and by extension Ned.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

Everything about this scene is far better explained as being two kids having fun and breaking rules, as kids are wont to do, than anything like what you are suggesting.  And the lack of textual evidence of anybody being concerned about them being out alone, or that Cersei has any problem with Sansa as her son's consort, seriously undercuts your case.  

Sure, they are breaking the rules, Joffrey perhaps knowingly. But that doesn't mean the incredible dereliction of duty by the man who's only function is to protect the prince at all times and from all danger is simply blown off. The only POVs we have of all this are Ned, Sansa and Arya, and they would be oblivious to all of this, and nobody else is going to bring it up publicly because it is not their place to question the king or the queen.

 

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Your first two links are the same. The last concerns a Hebrew book, which is actually stated to have a different stance toward sexuality than medieval books of other languages (unsurprising as it would reflect a different religious tradition). Still no evidence of any betrothal (whether to a king or the most minor of nobles) being broken because the betrothed jumped the gun with each other.

Sorry, must have mis-linked. You can Google it if you want. The fact remains that virginity tests were commonplace, as were the methods to beat them, because nobody, least of all kings and princes, could afford any questions on the paternity of their sons.

16 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

In addition to the Kingsguard Cersei also got two Lannisters squiring for Robert, which is how her successful plot to kill him worked. But you're right that Littlefinger has done the most to take over the bureaucracy.

OK, none of which would require a daylong confab with the Lord Command of the Kingsguard, the mute King's Justice and the Master of Laws. Agreed?

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Why does it have to be "secret plotting"? It's no secret that Cersei has intervened in the composition of the kingsguard, and it wouldn't be at all odd for her to talk about them with their lord commander (who is also tasked with guarding her). Renly is her brother in law and master of her husband's ancestral home, which Tommen could well inherit if Renly doesn't have an heir. Nothing inexplicable about her wanting to talk to him, particularly as he's not the prickly Stannis type who repels everyone around him. Over the long journey she'll have plenty of time to talk to Sansa, but since the honor guard just arrived it's polite to meet with them first.

Sorry, but no. There are no urgent matters with the Kingsguard, no pending appointments to be made, no fighting in the realm, nothing at all that the Lord Commander would need to discuss with the queen before it is presented to the king. Tommen is eight years old, years away from inheriting anything. I'd be surprised if she has need for a brief discussion with these two on some trivial matter, but an all-day conference? No way, just no.

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Tommen & Margaery are legally wed, complete with a bedding if not a consummation. It's not "irrelevant" if it's adultery, at that point it would be considered treason against the king and punishable by death. There are multiple differences with Joffrey & Sansa: not only are they not wed, but the person she's accused of sleeping with in this hypothetical is Joffrey himself! He'd be like the defendant who murdered his parents and begged the court's mercy due to being an orphan.

Not in a medieval world. I'll post the same thing I posted above:

Quote

From the High Sparrow:

 

Quote

"The wickedness of widows is well-known, and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men."

Notice how men are the innocent victims here but women are wicked and wanton? Sansa, drunk and seemingly defiled, with Joffrey accusing her of seduction, would play perfectly well with this widespread belief. And again, Robert would have no choice but to absolve his son and attaint Sansa, and by extension Ned.

 

The only difference is that this would not be treason on Sansa's part, so she wouldn't get that axe, but she most certainly is not getting the prince either. He's just been declared innocent of all charges by the chief and uncontestable law-maker in the land: His Royal Grace, King Robert.

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Joffrey was in a dispute with Arya, with Sansa refusing to back up her sister. Robert's goal is to sweep this under the rug and act like nothing happened. Complying with Cersei's demand to kill Lady costs him nothing, and he doesn't think she should have a direwolf for a pet anyway. Breaking off a marriage would be costly to him, and Ned (whom Robert still wants as hand) wouldn't be as accepting.

Convicting Joffrey of rape and perjury would ruin him as a king, putting the entire Baratheon dynasty at risk and laying the groundwork for yet another civil war. The consequences of that are far more dire than breaking off this betrothal. There are plenty of other brides for Joffrey and plenty of other Hands for Robert. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Fully comparable. You just have the benefit of hindsight for everything that was hidden before but has now been revealed.

No they are not. The issue has nothing to do with hindsight. The issue is that there is nothing to indicate anything going on with what you are proposing. There are hints, mysteries, and/or dialogue with the other examples. Nothing with your proposal. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Why is she taking it out on the wolf who was not even there when the guard who has sworn to protect Joff from all harm at all times was off daydreaming?

She was mad Joff was bit by a wolf. She doesn't care which one it was.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sit tight, it will all come out

No, it won't. And after its not out in Winds you'll have another 10 years to keep saying 'sit tight'.