Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

[John Suburbs]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The fan fiction gets a new detail. Now we have outriders who do nothing when Joff is attacked...

 

As I've stated, any Lann soldiers in the area are not necessarily there to protect the prince, or are even aware that he is there. Their only orders are to sweep the area clear of any suspicious characters. Even if Sansa did so them, she wouldn't think anything of it.

The fight was over almost before it began. There is no way an outrider, no matter how good a shot he thinks he is, is going to loose an arrow at a wolf that is rolling around on the ground with the prince. If they even nicked his pinky toe they would be executed.

 

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What about Arianne? Lady Barbara? Cersei? Alysane Mormont?

Arianne is from Dorne, where the rules are different. Also, she is not betrothed to a prince, she is slated to become Princess of Dorne in her own right.

Lady Barbara was never betrothed to a prince either, but if word of her fornications got out, they would disqualify her.

As far as anyone knew, Cersei was pure as the driven snow when she wed Robert.

Alysane Mormont? Was she going to wed a prince? Doubtful; she has two children supposedly fathered by a bear and is unwed to this day. She's in her mid-twenties so she should have a husband by now considering she is the daughter of a noble house. But nobody wants her, apparently.

 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Joffrey and Sansa were kids. Sansa wasn't as much as a horse rider as Marg and her hymen could have very well been undestroyed. Robert loved Ned and since the stakes would be higher than some family dog, he could have been very well taken Ned's side.

I'm not sure what you mean about touching him directly, but at that time the plans to send Robert to the other side were already in motion, sooo...

Yes, Cersei was way less bonkers then, she eliminated Robert (some luck with that, admittedly), was going to eliminate Ned in a reasonable way, had Joff not interfered. Btw, she also did a fairly good job with passing the three as royal children, and if Joff wasn't the uncontrolable little shit, no one except Stannis would've cared so much about who was his sperm donor (Renly even admits to not believing the 'rumors' of paternity of Cersei's children and only using them as an excuse).

So, back to the topic, I don't think she thought much of Sansa back then. And, more importantly, there's no indication in the text that she did.

Sansa has virtually no experience riding horses, so her hymen was likely intact that morning. Hours of riding with "reckless abandon" would be more than enough to break it.

Robert couldn't even take Ned's side over Joffrey's abuse of a butcher's boy, even though he knows Joffrey is lying. There is no way he is going to declare Joffrey a raper and launch a succession crisis. The realm would bleed.

Cersei cannot attack Ned's honor or reputation in order to have him removed as Hand, so she goes after the one piece on the board who's honor and reputation she can attack: Sansa.

From the very first time we hear her speak, we hear the very same paranoia and complete misunderstanding of others' motives and intentions that she displays later in her POVs. Just because we don't have a front row seat to everything that is going on in her mind this whole time doesn't mean she was sweet as roses. This fits perfectly with Cersei's pattern: a half-baked scheme to destroy someone that only fails to blow up in her face by the sheerest luck.

Renly has to dismiss the paternity question because he himself is angling to take the throne by force. How is he supposed to do that while at the same time agreeing that Stannis is legally entitled to the crown?

I don't think she thought much of Sansa either, but likewise I don't think she bore her any ill will at this point. The attempt to smear her had nothing to do with her personal feelings, it was an attempt to remove what she saw as a new political threat: Ned.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but your the one who keeps conflating the two. 

You brought up Jon's mother. I only showed you that it does not support the argument you are trying to make. It does the opposite. 

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If you agree that all mysteries are different, then you should have no problem seeing that Martin could craft this specific mystery in this specific way.

This specific way as in a reveal about nothing, with no in story consequences, no hints, no foreshadowing, no clues, no dialogue, and no point? I suppose, yes, he could, but would he?

He "could" also have Jaime morph into the terminator and shoot a rocket out of his golden hand to take down Drogon from 10 leagues away. 

I don't see what your point is with this statement.

28 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But despite any and all logic, you argue that this is not possible because you "understand" Martin. 

Show me where I said I understand Martin. Please stop trying to speak for me.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

And yet nobody in the story notices or cares, then or afterwards.  Which would suggest that, even if it is something she shouldn't have done, it has no importance to the story.  And it wouldn't be that hard to drop a hint.  Simply have Septa Mordane tell Sansa in a flashback in her next POV that what she did was stupid and she shouldn't do it again.

By the way, Cersei tells Joffrey to "entertain Sansa".  Exactly what did she expect?  For them to go back to the inn and chill out there?  Because that sounds even worse.  And what would have happened if Arya had come along.  She was invited to the meeting and would have been expected to attend.  Even Sansa was surprised she didn't

Like I said, once it became about Joffrey, Arya and Nymeria, all the rest was forgotten. If someone breaks into a home intending to steal a TV set but ends up shooting the homeowner dead, does it matter why or how the intruder entered the home in the first place?

The only reason Martin would "drop a hint" would be to let you know something is up. Why would he do that when he could use it to some greater purpose later? Why didn't he "drop a hint" right after Cat read the letter from Lysa that she and Littlefinger were the real murderers of Jon Arryn? Why didn't he "drop a hint" that the Westerlings were part of the Red Wedding plot? Why no hint that there was either a fake or a real Aegon out there somewhere? Martin does things in his own way and in his own time. Just because he doesn't make it obscenely easy for all levels of reading comprehension doesn't mean there are no greater truths that have yet to be revealed. There are still two full novels to go, and this reveal would require all of two paragraphs, if that.

Well, what she expected was for Joffrey to get Sansa alone, ride her hard on horseback all day, and then accuse her of moral turpitude on their return. For the deception, however, how would anyone believe that "entertain Sansa" meant breaking all social convention and protocol by running off with his betrothed? There are all kinds of ways she could be entertained, including going out for a ride as long as they bring adequate protection just like all other highborns in the realm are expected to do.

I'm not sure what meeting you're talking about? The afternoon with the queen? Sansa knows full well she isn't going to be there. If Arya had attended, she would have been miserable and unpleasant, but there would have been no incident with Joffrey because they would have been chaperoned the whole day.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And you're flat wrong about that. I've given you three examples in text that points to highborns travelling on this very road not venturing out without guards: Sansa's statement about leaving the column, Rodrick's statement about the dangers of the kings road, and Robert and Ned having guards despite being armed and armored themselves.

You also ignore how Arya leaves the column and nothing happens. You brush off the fact that nobody in story cares or says anything about it. Besides, these examples do nothing to support your proposal that Joff was supposed to rape Sansa or Sansa raping Joff.

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm breaking character? Are you serious? Cersei the evil queen who plots and schemes against everyone because she thinks the whole world is out to get her, and yet she is motherly and tender toward Sansa?

Cersei is evil and a schemer but not so stupid to try a plan like this.

You're trying to put words in my mouth again. I never said she is motherly nor tender towards Sansa. 

42 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey, the psycho prince/king who orders his knights to beat little girls for his amusement and likes to disembowel pregnant cats is only out for a happy, carefree ride with his lady love, a love that instantly disappears when her sister's wolf bites him? Please, your characterizations are diametrically opposed to what's actually in the text.

Joff wants to be seen as strong and powerful. He would not believe others would see him this way if he pulled off this scheme. But I'm not going to argue about hypothetical character motivations in fan fiction.

 

46 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You don't respect him. You think he contrives altogether unlikely and wildly historically inaccurate circumstances just because he is too lazy to find a credible way to advance the plot.

Here you go again. Please stop telling me how I feel.

I've already explained to you that every author uses plot devices and plot devices are a good thing when written well - as Martin does.

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

it wouldn't be odder for Martin to have Tywin Lannister ride into King's Landing on a Harley.

A sneak preview of your next "was supposed to happen but didn't" theory?

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This was a major development in the story that carries repercussions to this very day.

The ride itself has zero repercussions. What happened after the ride does.

 

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

To say that readers have completely forgotten the events that led up to Lady's death is the height of arrogance.

Maybe you can remember every single detail in a book you read 20+ years ago, but most people cannot. Again, I'm talking about most people and not the members of ASOIAF fan sites.

[John Suburbs]

24 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You brought up Jon's mother. I only showed you that it does not support the argument you are trying to make. It does the opposite. 

 My point is clear. A mystery that has very little evidence to support it, no characters voicing any suspicion about any of it, virtually no mention of it in the last two-and-a-half novels, and yet it is the leading theory in the fandom. The same criteria apply here as well.

25 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This specific way as in a reveal about nothing, with no in story consequences, no hints, no foreshadowing, no clues, no dialogue, and no point? I suppose, yes, he could, but would he?

He "could" also have Jaime morph into the terminator and shoot a rocket out of his golden hand to take down Drogon from 10 leagues away. 

I don't see what your point is with this statement.

It has plenty of hints, foreshadowings, clues and dialogue, as I have posted over and over again up above. You just have to be perceptive enough to put them all together. And let's just wait and see what the consequences are, shall we? Only one member of this little minuet is dead.

23 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Show me where I said I understand Martin. Please stop trying to speak for me.

For your pleasure:

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:50 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I have an open mind. But I also understand what (and what not) the author is trying to tell the reader.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

For your pleasure:

On 6/8/2018 at 12:50 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I have an open mind. But I also understand what (and what not) the author is trying to tell the reader.

And I stand by that statement in context to what you are trying to propose with this theory.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

A mystery that has very little evidence to support it, no characters voicing any suspicion about any of it, virtually no mention of it in the last two-and-a-half novels, and yet it is the leading theory in the fandom. The same criteria apply here as well.

You are either arguing dishonestly or trolling here.

Jon not knowing the identity of his mother is evidence enough of an obvious mystery at play. 

[John Suburbs]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You also ignore how Arya leaves the column and nothing happens. You brush off the fact that nobody in story cares or says anything about it. Besides, these examples do nothing to support your proposal that Joff was supposed to rape Sansa or Sansa raping Joff.

I haven't ignored it. I've addressed it ad nauseum up above, but I'll do it again for your benefit. Nobody takes any notice of Arya because she is dressed as a commoner. Joffrey doesn't even recognize her when he sees her, and it's the same when she is chasing cats in the Red Keep. Nothing bad happens on her little adventures, but if it did, she would be admonished for leaving the column. Sansa, meanwhile, is angling to be queen, and therefore must adhere to strict rules of propriety and chastity, rules that are severely violated by riding off alone with your boyfriend.

And if you would actually read what I've posted, you would know that I never once claimed that Joffrey was to rape Sansa or Sansa was to actually seduce Joff. Joffrey will merely claim Sansa seduced him, with the hours of vigorous hard horse-riding removing Sansa's ability to prove that it didn't happen.

6 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Cersei is evil and a schemer but not so stupid to try a plan like this.

You're trying to put words in my mouth again. I never said she is motherly nor tender towards Sansa. 

Have you been reading? Every single plan Cersei has hatched has been stupid: Robert's murder, Ned taking the black, Margaery... She is consistently misreading others and hatching hair-brained schemes that end up failing and it's only by the skin of her teeth that they don't blow up on her entirely.

The whole point of this thread is to gauge what Cersei actually thinks of Sansa. I contend she was trying to frame her on the Trident in order to neutralize Ned. I still don't know what you think, to be honest. Why don't you tell us? And please, show us all of the unquestionable text that validates to the fullest extent everything you believe.

10 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Joff wants to be seen as strong and powerful. He would not believe others would see him this way if he pulled off this scheme. But I'm not going to argue about hypothetical character motivations in fan fiction.

On the contrary, his reputation as a lady's man would be ensured. At 12 years old, he had the charisma to drive women wild, to the point where they forget themselves entirely and jump his bones, even if it means ruining their chance to become queen.

12 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Here you go again. Please stop telling me how I feel.

I've already explained to you that every author uses plot devices and plot devices are a good thing when written well - as Martin does.

Not pitifully poor plot devices that have no basis in characterization, historical fact or the author's own text. Only someone who had the most utter disrespect for an author would think they would stoop to such sloppiness.

14 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

A sneak preview of your next "was supposed to happen but didn't" theory?

No, an equally preposterous plot device that only someone who thought they were reading a truly pitiful writer would believe.

15 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The ride itself has zero repercussions. What happened after the ride does.

The repercussions will be felt if and when the reveal comes about. And then it will become one of the many instances in which readers say to themselves, "darn, I should have caught that."

16 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Maybe you can remember every single detail in a book you read 20+ years ago, but most people cannot. Again, I'm talking about most people and not the members of ASOIAF fan sites.

Details are one thing. Major plot developments are another. No one is going to be left puzzling about the circumstances leading up to Lady's death. By your logic, people shouldn't even understand what Sansa was doing in that part of the realm, because everything leading up to her presence there was written 20+ years ago.

Just have a little respect for the intelligence of both the author and has fanbase. It's not a huge leap.

[John Suburbs]

17 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

And I stand by that statement in context to what you are trying to propose with this theory.

Well, that's what I mean. Posing a fact-free, text-free argument in which your own opinion of your understanding is all that matter.

Most others side with facts and text, however.

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You are either arguing dishonestly or trolling here.

Jon not knowing the identity of his mother is evidence enough of an obvious mystery at play. 

Exactly. And Joffrey and Sansa being allowed to do what even Ned and Robert are not is evidence of an obvious mystery at play.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I haven't ignored it. I've addressed it ad nauseum up above, but I'll do it again for your benefit. Nobody takes any notice of Arya because she is dressed as a commoner. Joffrey doesn't even recognize her when he sees her, and it's the same when she is chasing cats in the Red Keep.

And that explanation doesn't work. Ned and his men know Arya. They know how willfull and adventurous she is. If not leaving the column was such a big deal someone would be with her making sure she doesn't leave.

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa, meanwhile, is angling to be queen, and therefore must adhere to strict rules of propriety and chastity, rules that are severely violated by riding off alone with your boyfriend.

Yet nobody seems to care when she leaves the column with Joff.

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And if you would actually read what I've posted, you would know that I never once claimed that Joffrey was to rape Sansa or Sansa was to actually seduce Joff.

Quote

 

John Suburbs   

#19

Posted June 1

  

Cersei is not assuming anything. She is ordering it.

It doesn't have to be a full-on rape, although I wouldn't put it past him.

 

 

Quote

On 5/30/2018 at 2:46 PM, John Suburbs said:

My suspicion is that Cersei set it up so that Joff could get Sansa alone and defile her

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

41 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Cersei is evil and a schemer but not so stupid to try a plan like this.

You're trying to put words in my mouth again. I never said she is motherly nor tender towards Sansa. 

Have you been reading? Every single plan Cersei has hatched has been stupid: Robert's murder, Ned taking the black, Margaery... She is consistently misreading others and hatching hair-brained schemes that end up failing and it's only by the skin of her teeth that they don't blow up on her entirely.

And I still contend she is not so stupid to try the plan you are proposing.

 

43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The whole point of this thread is to gauge what Cersei actually thinks of Sansa. I contend she was trying to frame her on the Trident in order to neutralize Ned. I still don't know what you think, to be honest. Why don't you tell us? And please, show us all of the unquestionable text that validates to the fullest extent everything you believe.

I don't think she had an opinion on Sansa personally at the time of the betrothal. Politically, she probably wouldn't want her son wed to a Stark but there is no text to back up my guess.

 

46 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

On the contrary, his reputation as a lady's man would be ensured. At 12 years old, he had the charisma to drive women wild, to the point where they forget themselves entirely and jump his bones, even if it means ruining their chance to become queen.

I disagree, but I'm not going to argue about hypothetical character motivations in fan fiction.

47 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I've already explained to you that every author uses plot devices and plot devices are a good thing when written well - as Martin does.

Not pitifully poor plot devices that have no basis in characterization, historical fact or the author's own text. Only someone who had the most utter disrespect for an author would think they would stoop to such sloppiness.

This is your response to what I said?

This date that you have an issue with obviously has a basis in the author's text because it happened in the author'stext and the author did not have anyone say anything about how odd it is.

52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, an equally preposterous plot device that only someone who thought they were reading a truly pitiful writer would believe.

I do not believe the author to be pitiful. I'm not changing the story to fit my fan fiction.

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The repercussions will be felt if and when the reveal comes about. And then it will become one of the many instances in which readers say to themselves, "darn, I should have caught that."

What in story repercussions would be felt?

If? You are arguing this awfully fervently for an if. So when it doesn't happen you'll be okay with Martin's "preposterous plot device that only someone who thought they were reading a truly pitiful writer would believe"?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

58 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Maybe you can remember every single detail in a book you read 20+ years ago, but most people cannot. Again, I'm talking about most people and not the members of ASOIAF fan sites.

Details are one thing. Major plot developments are another. No one is going to be left puzzling about the circumstances leading up to Lady's death. By your logic, people shouldn't even understand what Sansa was doing in that part of the realm, because everything leading up to her presence there was written 20+ years ago.

Lol, really? 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Just have a little respect for the intelligence of both the author and has fanbase. 

I do.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, that's what I mean. Posing a fact-free, text-free argument in which your own opinion of your understanding is all that matter.

Most others side with facts and text, however.

How am I supposed to come up with text that can disprove something that never happened? That's like saying I have to prove that there wasn't a giant flying on a Unicorn during the Battle of the Bells.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Jon not knowing the identity of his mother is evidence enough of an obvious mystery at play. 

Exactly. And Joffrey and Sansa being allowed to do what even Ned and Robert are not is evidence of an obvious mystery at play.

No, it's not.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

As I've stated, any Lann soldiers in the area are not necessarily there to protect the prince, or are even aware that he is there. Their only orders are to sweep the area clear of any suspicious characters. Even if Sansa did so them, she wouldn't think anything of it.

And when Joff begins his "defiling" are these hypothetical soldiers expected to keep quiet? Is it standard practice to just "clear away suspicious characters" without being seen? 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The fight was over almost before it began. There is no way an outrider, no matter how good a shot he thinks he is, is going to loose an arrow at a wolf that is rolling around on the ground with the prince. If they even nicked his pinky toe they would be executed.

 Earlier you said, "A few outriders who are good with bows would have the skills to track the Prince without being seen and eliminate any foes from a distance ifnecessary."

Either way, are you trying to tell me these hypothetical outriders would not have been able to step in, or at least be noticed through all of this?

Quote

 

“Stop it!” Arya screamed. She grabbed up her fallen stick.

Sansa was afraid. “Arya, you stay out of this.”

“I won’t hurt him … much,” Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher’s boy.

Arya went for him.

Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince’s head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa’s horrified eyes. Joffrey staggered and whirled around, roaring curses. Mycah ran for the trees as fast as his legs would take him. Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion’s Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, “No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you’re spoiling it,” but no one was listening. Arya scooped up a rock and hurled it at Joffrey’s head. She hit his horse instead, and the blood bay reared and went galloping off after Mycah. “Stop it, don’t, stop it!” Sansa screamed. Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words. Arya darted back, frightened now, but Joffrey followed, hounding her toward the woods, backing her up against a tree. Sansa didn’t know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from her tears.

Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey’s sword arm. The steel fell from his fingers as the wolf knocked him off his feet, and they rolled in the grass, the wolf snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. “Get it off,” he screamed. “Get it off!”

Arya’s voice cracked like a whip. “Nymeria!”

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya’s side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, “She didn’t hurt you … much.” She picked up Lion’s Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the sword with both hands.

Joffrey made a scared whimpery sound as he looked up at her. “No,” he said, “don’t hurt me. I’ll tell my mother.” “You leave him alone!” Sansa screamed at her sister. Arya whirled and heaved the sword into the air, putting her whole body into the throw. The blue steel flashed in the sun as the sword spun out over the river. It hit the water and vanished with a splash. Joffrey moaned. Arya ran off to her horse, Nymeria loping at her heels.

 

These hypothetical outriders would have been on alert when they notice the initial confrontation. Then Arya had time to hit Joff in the back of the head with a stick, swing again, and throw a rock at Joff. Then Joff is able to slash at Arya, back her against a tree. Then the wolf and Joff had time enough to roll in the grass. Then Arya has time to pick up Joff's sword and STAND OVER HIM WITH IT. Yet these outriders are not there yet or even seen by anyone. Your fan fiction attempt is laughable.

These outriders were not even able to help out the Lannisters find Arya when she ran off and they have "skills to track the prince without being noticed"?

 

[Nevets]

@John Suburbs 

All of the examples of mysteries you have mentioned have been events in the past or that occurred off-page.  This event is one we see as it happens.  Can you think of another event of this alleged magnitude that we actually saw but was hugely different in reality.  Because I can't.  at least, nothing that remained secret for more than a few chapters.

Also, what you describe is a well-laid plan, but they would have had no time to actually put it into effect.  Barristan and Renly's arrival was unexpected; I can't imagine Robert or, especially Ned, going hunting if they knew about their being there.  And the plan doesn't even go into effect otherwise.  Also, Cersei was expecting to meet with both Sansa and Arya.  She would have had no reason to expect Arya's absence.  I expect someone as narcisstic as Cersei couldn't imagine that a daughter of a Great House wouldn't want to meet her; or would be allowed to decline in the first place.  And the plot sure doesn't work with Arya around, does it?

This idea is developing more holes by the day, and is sinking fast; or should be.

[Tianzi]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa has virtually no experience riding horses, so her hymen was likely intact that morning. Hours of riding with "reckless abandon" would be more than enough to break it.

Says who? No, seriously, what basis you have for that statement?

She was willing to make that bet on Marg, who was older, had ridden a lot more, and could have possibly also not be a virgin, but in Sansa it's just plain stupid. Not to mention that later that 'proof' against Marg will be seen as rather weak as well and that it took an order of religious fanatics for it to even be a thing. And that Cersei herself fucked Jaime on the morning of her wedding day and years before. So yeah, I'm going to say they don't make that much fuss about hymens.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert couldn't even take Ned's side over Joffrey's abuse of a butcher's boy, even though he knows Joffrey is lying. There is no way he is going to declare Joffrey a raper and launch a succession crisis. The realm would bleed.

Because it was a butcher's boy and noone gives a tutu about a butcher's boy. Ned's daughters are another thing, which is shown as he's letting Arya to go unpunished after raising a hand at the crown prince.

 

He would not declare Joff a rapist (and that would not cause succession crisis), he would tell Cersei she's full of bs and he'd return to drinking.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Cersei cannot attack Ned's honor or reputation in order to have him removed as Hand, so she goes after the one piece on the board who's honor and reputation she can attack: Sansa.

From the very first time we hear her speak, we hear the very same paranoia and complete misunderstanding of others' motives and intentions that she displays later in her POVs. Just because we don't have a front row seat to everything that is going on in her mind this whole time doesn't mean she was sweet as roses. This fits perfectly with Cersei's pattern: a half-baked scheme to destroy someone that only fails to blow up in her face by the sheerest luck.

Only there's no scheme.

If there was anything remotely dubious about Sansa going off with Joffrey alone, we would have:

- Septa Mordane bitching about it after, which Sansa would include in her POV while remembering it

- maybe Ned giving Sansa a reprimand about her recklessness

- Sansa in her POV either feeling guilty while remembering it, or lamenting why the adults see faults with her innocent walk with her sweet, sweet prince

- most glaringly, Cersei herself going off at Sansa (as she was quite clearly willing to go off at anyone remotely 'guilty' [or, in Lady's case, not even that] of Joff's harm)  being a little tramp going around with boys so she's unsuitable for be a royal bride. This is the woman who loudly proposed cutting Arya's hand off, for chrissake.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Renly has to dismiss the paternity question because he himself is angling to take the throne by force. How is he supposed to do that while at the same time agreeing that Stannis is legally entitled to the crown?

Renly doesn't give a tutu about what he has to. Whoever is the legal king, be it Joffrey or Stannis, he clearly remains an usurper and is fine with that.

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't think she thought much of Sansa either, but likewise I don't think she bore her any ill will at this point. The attempt to smear her had nothing to do with her personal feelings, it was an attempt to remove what she saw as a new political threat: Ned

Only there was no attempt in the books.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

And that explanation doesn't work. Ned and his men know Arya. They know how willfull and adventurous she is. If not leaving the column was such a big deal someone would be with her making sure she doesn't leave.

Yet nobody seems to care when she leaves the column with Joff.

The Stark guardsmen are not nursemaids. Arya coming and going is hardly noticeable by anyone because she looks like any other smallfolk. Also, Arya has Nymeria with her and she does not go riding off into the unknown as a rule:

Quote

"You're not supposed to leave the column," Sansa reminded her. "Father said so."

Arya shrugged. "I didn't go far. Anyway, Nymeria was with me the whole time. I don't always go off, either. Sometimes it's fun just to ride along with the wagons and talk to people."

This is completely different for Sansa, who looks, dresses and acts like the queen-in-waiting. You don't know that nobody cared, just that nobody spoke up about it.

Yes, I take back my earlier comment. I had considered that Joff would actually violate Sansa. But once I read the part about riding with reckless abandon, I realized that wouldn't be necessary. Thank you for helping me put this theory on an even stronger footing that when I started.  But this is only related to Cersei's plan. I still contend that Joffrey was going to kill her, perhaps by drowning but, again, now that I've reread, perhaps by have her thrown from her horse. Or maybe both; once it became clear that she couldn't be thrown, the stroll along the river was to find a place to do the deed.

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

And I still contend she is not so stupid to try the plan you are proposing.

OK, that's certainly a valid opinion, even though it flies in the face of just about every other stupid plan she's laid since then. My issue isn't with your opinions, it's your insistence that your opinions are the only correct ones because you and only you understand what Martin is doing. That is unbelievably arrogant.

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't think she had an opinion on Sansa personally at the time of the betrothal. Politically, she probably wouldn't want her son wed to a Stark but there is no text to back up my guess.

I don't think she had any strong opinions about her either, but she is not doing this because she hates Sansa and wants to get rid of her. She's doing it because she is afraid of Ned and wants to get rid of him.

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

This date that you have an issue with obviously has a basis in the author's text because it happened in the author'stext and the author did not have anyone say anything about how odd it is.

Again, there is no text to support the notion that nobody thought this was odd. All we have is a lack of text showing that anyone expressed these thoughts around the POVs. We do have text that leads us to conclude this was, indeed, very odd: Sansa's statement, Rodrick's statement, Ned and Robert's guards -- all pointed directly at this time and this place where highborns are not to travel without protection. So in fact what you don't have is text or even a plausible reason why anyone to think this was normal, not an absence of text that then "disproves" the idea that people thought it was odd.

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

I do not believe the author to be pitiful. I'm not changing the story to fit my fan fiction.

There is no change to the story here. All of this fits perfectly well with the plot, characterization, theme and everything else that has been written so far. Martin can drop in the reveal at any time he chooses, bring much more clarity to past events than readers have now.

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What in story repercussions would be felt?

That Cersei was plotting and scheming against the Starks from the very beginning, and using Sansa as a pawn. That Littlefinger was actually behind the catspaw, and many other things Joffrey did. That these crimes will come back to haunt them when they find themselves in weakened positions. That Sansa will have grown stronger and more resilient as time went by and will realize who her true enemies are. Probably numerous other repercussions that are just as significant as finding out who killed Jon Arryn and who was involved in the Red Wedding plot?

17 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

If? You are arguing this awfully fervently for an if. So when it doesn't happen you'll be okay with Martin's "preposterous plot device that only someone who thought they were reading a truly pitiful writer would believe"?

Again, I never said there was incontrovertible proof here. If there was, then this would all be fact and not theory, and there wouldn't be any reason to discuss it. This is all predicated on the assumption that Joffrey sent the catspaw and that he did it on the prompting of Littlefinger in order to

Even if there is no reveal, there is no reason to dismiss it outright. Some things never come to light, like why Aragorn was not affected by the One Ring even though he was with it for far longer than Boramir.

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Lol, really? 

Yes, really. If they can't follow how Sansa and Joffrey got the Trident to be attacked by Arya and Nymeria, how do you expect them to follow how she got to that part of the story in the first place?

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I do.

Obviously you don't, or you wouldn't think he uses such cheap, lazy tactics as this to advanced his plots.

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

How am I supposed to come up with text that can disprove something that never happened? That's like saying I have to prove that there wasn't a giant flying on a Unicorn during the Battle of the Bells.

I've provided text that shows it would be very unusual for any highborn to leave the column without guard. You contend it was perfectly normal. Where is your text to support that contention? If you don't have any, then just admit that this is your opinion and there are no facts or text to back it up.

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

No, it's not.

Of course it is. Two of the fiercest warriors in the realm, fully armed and armored, and it is not safe enough for them to ride off without guards, even though one of them desperately wants to do just that. Then we have Sansa and Joffrey, two pre-teens, utterly defenseless, and yet it is perfectly safe for them to ride wherever their hearts take them. You can't simply ignore this clear and compelling disconnect just because it is inconvenient to your theory.

As I said, my theory is based on facts in the text. Your's is based on nothing by your own opinions as to how Martin does and does not craft is story.

16 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

And when Joff begins his "defiling" are these hypothetical soldiers expected to keep quiet? Is it standard practice to just "clear away suspicious characters" without being seen? 

 Earlier you said, "A few outriders who are good with bows would have the skills to track the Prince without being seen and eliminate any foes from a distance ifnecessary."

Either way, are you trying to tell me these hypothetical outriders would not have been able to step in, or at least be noticed through all of this?

These hypothetical outriders would have been on alert when they notice the initial confrontation. Then Arya had time to hit Joff in the back of the head with a stick, swing again, and throw a rock at Joff. Then Joff is able to slash at Arya, back her against a tree. Then the wolf and Joff had time enough to roll in the grass. Then Arya has time to pick up Joff's sword and STAND OVER HIM WITH IT. Yet these outriders are not there yet or even seen by anyone. Your fan fiction attempt is laughable.

These outriders were not even able to help out the Lannisters find Arya when she ran off and they have "skills to track the prince without being noticed"?

 

There is no defiling.

Yes, they would be tasked with removing any groups of suspicious-looking people. They could even have been there two or three days before the column arrived.

Outriders are experts at seeing without being seen. That is what they do. No, they would not be able to stop a wolf from suddenly attacking the prince, nor would they risk loosing an arrow at it when it is on the ground rolling around with the prince.

There is no reason to think that the outriders are actually tracking Joff and keeping an eye on him at all times. Their job is to clear the area of dangerous looking men, not children with sticks.

Nobody was able to find Arya for four days. She is one little girl out in the big wide world. Nobody was able to find the BwB during the war, nor did anyone notice Gregor Cleganes pack of raiders -- 50? 100 men? -- as they trekked across the riverlands.

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

@John Suburbs 

All of the examples of mysteries you have mentioned have been events in the past or that occurred off-page.  This event is one we see as it happens.  Can you think of another event of this alleged magnitude that we actually saw but was hugely different in reality.  Because I can't.  at least, nothing that remained secret for more than a few chapters.

Also, what you describe is a well-laid plan, but they would have had no time to actually put it into effect.  Barristan and Renly's arrival was unexpected; I can't imagine Robert or, especially Ned, going hunting if they knew about their being there.  And the plan doesn't even go into effect otherwise.  Also, Cersei was expecting to meet with both Sansa and Arya.  She would have had no reason to expect Arya's absence.  I expect someone as narcisstic as Cersei couldn't imagine that a daughter of a Great House wouldn't want to meet her; or would be allowed to decline in the first place.  And the plot sure doesn't work with Arya around, does it?

This idea is developing more holes by the day, and is sinking fast; or should be.

Catelyn reads the letter from Lysa fingering the Lannisters for the death of her husband. Three novels later, we find out that was a lie. Shae appears to be Tyrion's paramour for two novels; turns out she was spying on him, and shagging Tywin as well. There is also the Purple Wedding, but we're still waiting for confirmation on that. How about the catspaw? Unfolded right before our eyes with all the character suspicions pointing directly at Cersei, and it turns out to be Joffrey, or someone else, but definitely not Cersei.

I'm sure you will come up with all sorts of excuses as to why each of these cases is different, but guess what? Every situation is different. Martin crafts his mysteries in different ways to fit different circumstances. I gave you several examples of things that Sansa sees in her POVs where she is completely oblivious to what is really going on. It's kind of a thing with her, and the Starks in general.

The plan does not hinge on Renly, Barry and Illyn showing up at camp. She could have made up any excuse in the world to cancel her plans. She wasn't expecting Arya's absence; if Arya had showed up Cersie would have cancelled on both of them.

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Says who? No, seriously, what basis you have for that statement?

Says Sansa:

Quote

GoT, Sansa I

"I hate riding," Sansa said ferverently. "All it does is get you soiled and dusty and sore."

snip

"Why would you want to ride a smelly old horse and get all sore and sweaty when you could recline on feather pillows and eat cakes with the queen?"

 

8 hours ago, Tianzi said:

She was willing to make that bet on Marg, who was older, had ridden a lot more, and could have possibly also not be a virgin, but in Sansa it's just plain stupid. Not to mention that later that 'proof' against Marg will be seen as rather weak as well and that it took an order of religious fanatics for it to even be a thing. And that Cersei herself fucked Jaime on the morning of her wedding day and years before. So yeah, I'm going to say they don't make that much fuss about hymens.

A broken hymen is not proof of fornication, but it can remove Sansa's ability to prove she is still a maid. They do make a fuss over it; Margy's brother had to swear in court and in front of the High Septon that Margaery was a maid even though she was legally wed married to Renly for some months. Queens who do not uphold the highest standards of purity and chastity before marriage and faithfulness to their husbands afterward lead to rumors that their children are not legitimate, which produces a succession crisis, which leads to civil war. It's not just about having a virgin bride; it's a matter of national security.

8 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Because it was a butcher's boy and noone gives a tutu about a butcher's boy. Ned's daughters are another thing, which is shown as he's letting Arya to go unpunished after raising a hand at the crown prince.

He would not declare Joff a rapist (and that would not cause succession crisis), he would tell Cersei she's full of bs and he'd return to drinking.

Exactly. He can't even rule on what he knows to be true over such a minor matter as this. There is no way he is going to rule that Joffrey is a raper. There would most certainly be a succession crisis if he did that because rape is a serious crime in the realm and no one wants a king who is a criminal. And there is plenty of uncontested evidence that points to Sansa being the one who is loose with her virtue: she willingly went off alone with the prince, she is drunk, sweaty, sore and her hymen is broken. Even Ned would agree that this is no way for a proper lady to behave, and although he would beleive her story, he would not be able to defend her actions.

9 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Only there's no scheme.

If there was anything remotely dubious about Sansa going off with Joffrey alone, we would have:

- Septa Mordane bitching about it after, which Sansa would include in her POV while remembering it

- maybe Ned giving Sansa a reprimand about her recklessness

- Sansa in her POV either feeling guilty while remembering it, or lamenting why the adults see faults with her innocent walk with her sweet, sweet prince

- most glaringly, Cersei herself going off at Sansa (as she was quite clearly willing to go off at anyone remotely 'guilty' [or, in Lady's case, not even that] of Joff's harm)  being a little tramp going around with boys so she's unsuitable for be a royal bride. This is the woman who loudly proposed cutting Arya's hand off, for chrissake.

Septa M may have very well said something to Sansa afterward, but I doubt it. Sansa is her charge and she is supposed to be on top of these kinds of things, but she dropped the ball. She's lucky she wasn't dismissed, and if her lord was anyone but Ned she probably would have.

Once the whole affair centered around Arya and Nymeria, the hows and whys as to what led up to this event were forgotten by everybody. Ned was out of his mind for four days worrying about Arya, and then he has to make sure she isn't executed for striking the prince. Once that danger was passed, everybody -- Ned, Robert, Mordane, Sansa, Arya -- just wanted to move on.

What's most glaring about Cersei's behavior is not that she didn't go after Sansa in the end -- she played her hand as best she could -- but that there were no repercussions at all for the Hound. Cersei brought Sandor in specifically to guard the prince, at all times. We have mutliple points of text showing that the high road is dangerous, not safe for highborns, and even Ned and Robert don't leave without a tail, and yet Sandor apparently decided on a whim to take the whole day off and the prince was nearly killed as a result. If Cersei is this vengeful against the wolf that wasn't even there, why isn't she even slightly perturbed that the man who was supposed to be protecting her son, the heir to the Iron Throne, decided to go AWOL instead?