Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Clearly, this was against the rules. And the fact that no consequences befell the Hound afterward suggests to me that the whole afternoon was planned and approved by Cersei, otherwise he would have lost his head for dereliction of duty.

The royals are always right, in the view of the kingsguard, and Cersei is pretty indulgent towards Joffrey. On the Stark side, Arya leaves the column all the time, so Jory knows he's not expected to enforce the rules. So, no problem.

It's unlikely, though not impossible, that Cersei planned a murder. Not a rape though. To the end, Cersei thought Joff was too young to be interested in sex.

[Springwatch]

16 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

Cersei likes to think of herself as a much better person than she actually is. I would even go so far as to say Cersei is not capable of love; even the 'love' for her own children and Jaime mostly comes from the fact that she sees them as a reflection/extension of herself (herself being perhaps the only person she loves).

All reasonable points. It comes down to how you define love. Cersei is cruel to her own children, but she thinks she loves them and gives the best of care; she feels they are supremely precious to her.

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As I said before, the political purpose of the betrothal isn't lost; Sansa is a hostage and also the key to the north.

Agree; but a marriage to the king is absurd. A lesser Lannister can take full control of the north, and the king needs to make more powerful alliances.

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The exquisite wedding dress was appropriate to Sansa's status as the daughter of a Lord Paramount. It wasn't a kindness, it was socially expected. Sansa Stark couldn't get married in rags.

Cersei said Sansa would be married kicking and screaming if necessary, so social expectations take a back seat.

The dress was way over the top - Sansa was dressed like a queen, young and lovely, and far out-shining her ugly Lannister partner. She'd be highly likely to attract sympathy and support. The strategic thing to do would be to dress Sansa like a lady, but modestly, to send a message to the world that the Lannister family is greater than hers.

I'm not sure how in touch Lysa is with social norms (she might be); but this is what she says on Sansa's status in society:

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"... You are well born, and the Starks of Winterfell were always proud, but Winterfell has fallen and you are really just a beggar now, so put that pride aside..." (ASOS)

 

[punzerknacker]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The dress was way over the top - Sansa was dressed like a queen, young and lovely, and far out-shining her ugly Lannister partner. She'd be highly likely to attract sympathy and support. The strategic thing to do would be to dress Sansa like a lady, but modestly, to send a message to the world that the Lannister family is greater than hers.

I think they were parading her; it was known that the Tyrells were trying to snatch Sansa away as a bride for Willas and the Lannisters wanted to show off that the valuable key to the north was theirs for good. They were unlikely to play down the fact that they had succeeded in claming this prize for themselves. (I know Robb was still alive at the time, but he was at war and the Lannisters being prideful as they are were assuming they would come out winning, which would mean Robb would be either left dead or taking the black.)

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

And yet, Ned says nothing to Sansa about it.  And as for Joffrey, Barristan has ultimate responsibility for the royal family's safety, yet says nothing.  And Jory, who has responsibility for the Starks' security, is also present, yet says ... nothing.  If George were going to have this matter, somebody would have said something.  Ergo, the fact that they were out alone isn't significant. 

We don't know that they said nothing. The next scene has Ned riding into the Red Keep and his immediate summons to the Small Council. We find out later that the Starks and Lannisters separated for the rest of the trip and nobody went riding off on their own, not even Arya.

The entire episode was highly unusual from start to finish, particularly the fact that there were no repercussions for the one person who should have been there: the Hound. If he really was this derelict in his duty, the queen could have had his head.

[Nevets]

17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know that they said nothing. The next scene has Ned riding into the Red Keep and his immediate summons to the Small Council. We find out later that the Starks and Lannisters separated for the rest of the trip and nobody went riding off on their own, not even Arya.

The entire episode was highly unusual from start to finish, particularly the fact that there were no repercussions for the one person who should have been there: the Hound. If he really was this derelict in his duty, the queen could have had his head.

You missed my point.  If George felt it was important that the Crown Prince and his betrothed were riding around unescorted, he would have had a character speak up about it.  He has total control over what the characters do and say, and is pretty good about leaving breadcrumbs like that for us to follow.  So I don't really think it mattered.  The primary purpose of this scene was to show Sansa's interest in Joffrey and to show Joffrey's character to be a bully and liar (with an assist from Arya).

By the way,the next scene has everybody at Castle Darry, telling Robert what happened.  Perfect opportunity to ask what they were doing out there without an escort.  

 

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The royals are always right, in the view of the kingsguard, and Cersei is pretty indulgent towards Joffrey. On the Stark side, Arya leaves the column all the time, so Jory knows he's not expected to enforce the rules. So, no problem.

It's unlikely, though not impossible, that Cersei planned a murder. Not a rape though. To the end, Cersei thought Joff was too young to be interested in sex.

Arya leaves the column against her father's expressed wishes:

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"You're not supposed to leave the column," Sansa reminder her (Arya). "Father said so."

Yes, the grown-ups are lax in their enforcement, but it is still against the rules. The world is simply too dangerous to let little highborn children roam around strange territory on their own. Even armed as he is, Joffrey is in no way capable of protecting Sansa or himself.

I don't think Cersei was planning a murder. But a torn dress and a story about how she got drunk and threw herself at poor, innocent Joffrey is all it would take to dissolve the betrothal and send Ned back to Winterfell.

I don't think we should read too much into one comment by Cersei at a small council meeting months later. She is just grasping for excuses not to let a Tyrell worm their way onto the Iron Throne.

[John Suburbs]

7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

You missed my point.  If George felt it was important that the Crown Prince and his betrothed were riding around unescorted, he would have had a character speak up about it.  He has total control over what the characters do and say, and is pretty good about leaving breadcrumbs like that for us to follow.  So I don't really think it mattered.  The primary purpose of this scene was to show Sansa's interest in Joffrey and to show Joffrey's character to be a bully and liar (with an assist from Arya).

By the way,the next scene has everybody at Castle Darry, telling Robert what happened.  Perfect opportunity to ask what they were doing out there without an escort.  

 

Um, no, the George leaves many things off the page to be revealed later at a time of his choosing; ie, the Arryn murder, the Westerling conspiracy... This is like saying that if George felt it was important that Jon is the son of Rhaegar he would have a character speak up about it. Just like RLJ, however, he has left breadcrumbs leading to the truth about what really happened on the Trident. You may choose to accept or ignore them at your pleasure.

I was referring to the scene after the incident on the Trident, where Ned describes the remainder of the journey. At Darry, they are preoccupied with Joff's injuries. But yes, it was a perfect opportunity to ask why they were alone, particularly for Cersie, who is the only one who is really angry about the whole affair. Curious that she didn't...

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:10 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So what did Cersei think of Joffrey being betrothed to Sansa? Did she approve? Disapprove because House Lannister has no rival and she sees everyone as beneath them? Or were there alarm bells going off in her head about the "younger and more beautiful queen"?

She seem to be all for it , until Tyrion and Littlefinger convinced Cercei on Margaery Tyrell .

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, no, the George leaves many things off the page to be revealed later at a time of his choosing; ie, the Arryn murder, the Westerling conspiracy... This is like saying that if George felt it was important that Jon is the son of Rhaegar he would have a character speak up about it. Just like RLJ, however, he has left breadcrumbs leading to the truth about what really happened on the Trident. You may choose to accept or ignore them at your pleasure.

I was referring to the scene after the incident on the Trident, where Ned describes the remainder of the journey. At Darry, they are preoccupied with Joff's injuries. But yes, it was a perfect opportunity to ask why they were alone, particularly for Cersie, who is the only one who is really angry about the whole affair. Curious that she didn't...

Your definition of breadcrumbs is evidently quite different from mine.

With the exception of the wolf attack, nobody has so much of thought about the incident in the 4+ books since it happened.  Not even Cersei, who, if she had wanted Sansa dead, would definitely have had thoughts about it after Joffrey's murder, which she believes Sansa participated in.

In this case, absence of evidence really is evidence of absence.  There is nothing to see here.  Time to move on.

[Springwatch]

12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, the grown-ups are lax in their enforcement, but it is still against the rules. The world is simply too dangerous to let little highborn children roam around strange territory on their own. Even armed as he is, Joffrey is in no way capable of protecting Sansa or himself.

To this, a thousand times yes.

I nearly stopped reading after agot because of all the things that are just wrong for that kind of society. It was only the death of Ned that kept me going. He didn't fit the times, and he died for it.

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I don't think Cersei was planning a murder. But a torn dress and a story about how she got drunk and threw herself at poor, innocent Joffrey is all it would take to dissolve the betrothal and send Ned back to Winterfell.

Perhaps, if they'd both been a bit older, but even then Cersei would be taking a huge risk. She'd be setting up an immediate head-to-head conflict with Ned, with very little chance the king would believe Joff's story. (Robert is disgusted by Joff's cruelty - when Joff tortured the cat, Robert hit him so hard he lost a tooth. How would Robert react to a torn dress and a hysterical Sansa?)

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

Your definition of breadcrumbs is evidently quite different from mine.

With the exception of the wolf attack, nobody has so much of thought about the incident in the 4+ books since it happened.  Not even Cersei, who, if she had wanted Sansa dead, would definitely have had thoughts about it after Joffrey's murder, which she believes Sansa participated in.

In this case, absence of evidence really is evidence of absence.  There is nothing to see here.  Time to move on.

Cersei did not want Sansa dead, just defiled. Regardless of whether she was the perpetrator or the victim, the shame would be hers and she would be ineligible as queen consort for Joffrey. Joffrey may or may not have been planning to murder her.

There is evidence, as I've shown above:

Sansa's comment about not leaving the column.

Ned and Robert having a tail when they leave.

Cersei's pitiful excuse for not spending the day with Sansa because "the good councillors and I must speak together until the king returns with your father..." What on earth could Cersei possibly need to discuss with Renly, Selmy and Payne all day long?

Nobody, particularly Robert and Ned, thinks about it afterward because it is over and done with and they just want to put it behind them. The only person who is infuriated by the whole thing is Cersei, who ends up killing a wolf that had nothing at all to do with the entire incident, but lets off scot-free the dog who should have been guarding the prince.

Come to think of it, there is more "textual evidence" for this theory than there is for RLJ.

[Joy Hill]

I think Cersei rather approved of Sansa at the beginning. She probably saw her as Joffrey's Jaime : someone "wet with love" who would do anything for her son. That's why she encouraged Joffrey to be nice to her and charm her.

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

To this, a thousand times yes.

I nearly stopped reading after agot because of all the things that are just wrong for that kind of society. It was only the death of Ned that kept me going. He didn't fit the times, and he died for it.

Perhaps, if they'd both been a bit older, but even then Cersei would be taking a huge risk. She'd be setting up an immediate head-to-head conflict with Ned, with very little chance the king would believe Joff's story. (Robert is disgusted by Joff's cruelty - when Joff tortured the cat, Robert hit him so hard he lost a tooth. How would Robert react to a torn dress and a hysterical Sansa?)

Oh, I think Sansa would be sent packing regardless of whether she was the victim or not. In the eyes of the court, she would now be soiled. Robert would fume, Ned would curse, but in the end she is no longer a fit consort for the prince.

I agree that a lot of things seem out-of-place in the story at first read, but that is the subtly of the work: on closer inspection you can start to see the reasons why these odd things are perhaps not so odd after all.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Come to think of it, there is more "textual evidence" for this theory than there is for RLJ.

I'm not going to get into that.  It isn't the place for it.  I will just say that if you do a detailed chronology of the backstory, it kind of leaps out at you.

As to the children being allowed to go off alone (which is the crux of your argument), I see two possible explanations.

1.   The author made an oversight.  It was early in the series, and he wasn't paying as close attention to these sort of details as he should have been.  He has admitted other oversights in the beginning; for example, not giving the Stark children highborn companions fostered at Winterfell, as would have been normal.  This could be a similar oversight.

2.  He is showing Joffrey as an arrogant entitled prick who is allowed to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants to without repercussions.  If he wants to, he can go riding about the countryside without an escort and nobody is going to say boo about it.  Cersei, in particular, seemed quite willing to indulge his whims.  And by the way, a boy with a sword, especially with decent training, can probably handle any reasonable threat that is likely to present itself.  Lupine companions excepted, of course.

As to Cersei's activities, it is quite reasonable that she would want to talk with Renly and Barristan.  They have been gone for months, and she would probably like to know what is going on, and can update them on what the royal party is up to.  Sounds reasonable to me.  Given Robert's absentee nature, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei hasn't been more hands-on than it might appear.

[Springwatch]

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Oh, I think Sansa would be sent packing regardless of whether she was the victim or not. In the eyes of the court, she would now be soiled.

Sansa is eleven years old. Everyone has had time to see she's a total innocent, and the southerners already know what Joff's like. In the eyes of the court, Joff would be guilty of raping a child - is that what Cersei wants to achieve?

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert would fume, Ned would curse, but in the end she is no longer a fit consort for the prince.

This is how they reacted over a direwolf that neither of them wanted in the first place. A much-loved little daughter is in a different league, I hope you agree. If Joff and Cersei survive the initial rage of both men, then the betrothal is off, true, but there is still the prospect of a furious wolf Hand, hunting for justice for his son, justice for his daughter, and when the twincest comes out, justice for his king.

Cersei is not such a fool as that.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm not going to get into that.  It isn't the place for it.  I will just say that if you do a detailed chronology of the backstory, it kind of leaps out at you.

As to the children being allowed to go off alone (which is the crux of your argument), I see two possible explanations.

1.   The author made an oversight.  It was early in the series, and he wasn't paying as close attention to these sort of details as he should have been.  He has admitted other oversights in the beginning; for example, not giving the Stark children highborn companions fostered at Winterfell, as would have been normal.  This could be a similar oversight.

2.  He is showing Joffrey as an arrogant entitled prick who is allowed to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants to without repercussions.  If he wants to, he can go riding about the countryside without an escort and nobody is going to say boo about it.  Cersei, in particular, seemed quite willing to indulge his whims.  And by the way, a boy with a sword, especially with decent training, can probably handle any reasonable threat that is likely to present itself.  Lupine companions excepted, of course.

Number 2, I think. If the Hound reported Joff's plans to Cersei, and she said it was fine, then she can't really complain. Besides, the Lannisters genuinely seem to expect dog-like loyalty and obedience from the Hound - maybe following Joff's orders to the letter was all they asked from him.

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

As to Cersei's activities, it is quite reasonable that she would want to talk with Renly and Barristan.  They have been gone for months, and she would probably like to know what is going on, and can update them on what the royal party is up to.  Sounds reasonable to me.  Given Robert's absentee nature, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei hasn't been more hands-on than it might appear.

Even more likely, Cersei thought tea and lemoncakes all day with Sansa would be incredibly boring, and took the first opportunity to back out.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Nevets said:

I'm not going to get into that.  It isn't the place for it.  I will just say that if you do a detailed chronology of the backstory, it kind of leaps out at you.

As to the children being allowed to go off alone (which is the crux of your argument), I see two possible explanations.

1.   The author made an oversight.  It was early in the series, and he wasn't paying as close attention to these sort of details as he should have been.  He has admitted other oversights in the beginning; for example, not giving the Stark children highborn companions fostered at Winterfell, as would have been normal.  This could be a similar oversight.

2.  He is showing Joffrey as an arrogant entitled prick who is allowed to do pretty much whatever the hell he wants to without repercussions.  If he wants to, he can go riding about the countryside without an escort and nobody is going to say boo about it.  Cersei, in particular, seemed quite willing to indulge his whims.  And by the way, a boy with a sword, especially with decent training, can probably handle any reasonable threat that is likely to present itself.  Lupine companions excepted, of course.

As to Cersei's activities, it is quite reasonable that she would want to talk with Renly and Barristan.  They have been gone for months, and she would probably like to know what is going on, and can update them on what the royal party is up to.  Sounds reasonable to me.  Given Robert's absentee nature, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei hasn't been more hands-on than it might appear.

Sorry to be blunt, but your No. 1 is one of the biggest crutches on this board. Whenever anyone's theory doesn't fit the facts, they just chalk it up to: well, Martin just made another mistake. I contend that in situations like this, the mistake is not Martin's; it's the reader's. The errors Martin has admitted so far have been inconsequential to the story, merely providing an incorrect atmosphere. Pre-teen princes and their pre-teen ladies riding off together would be an epic blunder for someone who has steeped himself in medieval history the way Martin has. 

Forget about kings and princes. Imagine yourself as the parent of an 11-12 yo boy or girl, if you aren't already. Would you be OK with your child, on the cusp of sexuality, wandering off into the woods with their boy/girlfriend? If you were paying someone full-time for their protection, would you just ignore the fact that they simply abrogated that responsibility and your child was injured, kidnapped, killed...? Please, this would be much more than Cersei indulging his whims. This was an extremely dangerous thing for the future king and queen.

Joffrey has not had decent martial training, or any training at all that I can see. He is utterly useless with his sword. The first thing Arya learns is:

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"The steel must be part of your arm," the bald man told her. "Can you drop part of your arm?"

But the first thing Joffrey does when bitten is drop his sword. Later, on the morning of his wedding:

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It took him half a dozen further cuts to hack the thick tome apart, and the boy was breathless by the time he was done.

Seven swings of a Valyrian steel sword, which is far lighter than normal steel, and he is winded. With proper training he would have been able to go for hours, like you have to do in real battle. Joffrey is a piss poor swordsman and would in no way be able to protect Sansa or anyone else.

What possible issues would Cersei need to discuss with the "good councilors" all afternoon? She has no political authority; she doesn't sit on the small council; there are no crises in the realm at the moment. There is absolutely no reason for her to have a day-long meeting with the LC of the Kingsguard, the king's brother and the royal executioner.

[Nevets]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

What possible issues would Cersei need to discuss with the "good councilors" all afternoon? She has no political authority; she doesn't sit on the small council; there are no crises in the realm at the moment. There is absolutely no reason for her to have a day-long meeting with the LC of the Kingsguard, the king's brother and the royal executioner.

I have no idea, but even in peacetime, stuff is always happening.  That is one of the reasons the 5-year gap was abandoned; too much shit going on.  Even without crises, stuff has been going on, and I'm Cersei would like to get up to date.  Plus, it's not like the councilors have anything better to do while they wait for Robert to get back.  They're probably perfectly happy to indulge her.

Even if it is pretextual, so what?  There is hardly anything scandalous about her son spending time with his betrothed, and she probably assumed they would be wandering around camp or something. 

I noticed re-reading the chapter that Joffrey suggests riding after he has dismissed Sandor, and the other adults have left for their meeting.  He may have figured it was against the rules (we know what he thinks of those; just ask Ser Rodrick) and it would be easier to ask forgiveness (which he will get) than permission (which he might not).  He's intent on showing Sansa a good, exciting time; and succeeds until they meet Arya.

In any case, I challenge you to find anything at all that suggests that Cersei or Joffrey had any interest at all in Sansa getting hurt, or even expressed any dislike of her or the betrothal.  Because I can find nothing, zip, nada.

 

[John Suburbs]

33 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa is eleven years old. Everyone has had time to see she's a total innocent, and the southerners already know what Joff's like. In the eyes of the court, Joff would be guilty of raping a child - is that what Cersei wants to achieve?

This is how they reacted over a direwolf that neither of them wanted in the first place. A much-loved little daughter is in a different league, I hope you agree. If Joff and Cersei survive the initial rage of both men, then the betrothal is off, true, but there is still the prospect of a furious wolf Hand, hunting for justice for his son, justice for his daughter, and when the twincest comes out, justice for his king.

Cersei is not such a fool as that.

Number 2, I think. If the Hound reported Joff's plans to Cersei, and she said it was fine, then she can't really complain. Besides, the Lannisters genuinely seem to expect dog-like loyalty and obedience from the Hound - maybe following Joff's orders to the letter was all they asked from him.

Even more likely, Cersei thought tea and lemoncakes all day with Sansa would be incredibly boring, and took the first opportunity to back out.

Again, Cersei is probably not planning a full-on rape, but a torn dress and a story from the crown prince about how a drunken Sansa threw herself at him -- that would be enough to call off the wedding. But even if Joffrey did take her maidenhead, he can still claim he was seduced because, you know, women are wanton and are always trying to lure men away from their inherent male saintliness.

Sansa is only much-loved by her own family. No one else knows what she is really like. Same for Joffrey; he presents himself very well in public but few people know the real boy.

If the betrothal is off, it is very unlikely that Ned will continue as Hand. Too much shame for House Stark; too much of a scandal.

The Hound is sworn to the protect the prince, not follow his orders to the letter. He should have followed Joff wherever he want. All Joff said was to back off of Sansa, not to take the rest of the day off. If Joff did try to dismiss him so he could go off riding with Sansa, he should have immediately reported to the Queen. The fact that he did none of this but still has his head on his shoulders is the most damning evidence of all that this was all set up.

Rather than spend the day taking the measure or otherwise influencing the girl who will someday marry her son and rule as her queen, Cersei would rather sit and discuss idle matters with Barry, Renly and Payne?

[John Suburbs]

10 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I have no idea, but even in peacetime, stuff is always happening.  That is one of the reasons the 5-year gap was abandoned; too much shit going on.  Even without crises, stuff has been going on, and I'm Cersei would like to get up to date.  Plus, it's not like the councilors have anything better to do while they wait for Robert to get back.  They're probably perfectly happy to indulge her.

Even if it is pretextual, so what?  There is hardly anything scandalous about her son spending time with his betrothed, and she probably assumed they would be wandering around camp or something. 

I noticed re-reading the chapter that Joffrey suggests riding after he has dismissed Sandor, and the other adults have left for their meeting.  He may have figured it was against the rules (we know what he thinks of those; just ask Ser Rodrick) and it would be easier to ask forgiveness (which he will get) than permission (which he might not).  He's intent on showing Sansa a good, exciting time; and succeeds until they meet Arya.

In any case, I challenge you to find anything at all that suggests that Cersei or Joffrey had any interest at all in Sansa getting hurt, or even expressed any dislike of her or the betrothal.  Because I can find nothing, zip, nada.

 

Please give me an example of "stuff happening" that would require an hours-long meeting with the LC of the KG, a flippant joke of a man like Renly and mute Ser Illyn whose only job is to lop people's heads off when commanded. All of the most important people are with her on the Kings Road. Do you honestly think she needs updates from these men about all the gossip going on in King's Landing? Does she need the latest reports on Essoian politics? Threats to the realm? She's the queen, not the king.

There is everything scandalous about a young prince and his bride-to-be riding off into the countryside alone together. I can't imagine anything more scandalous for this society. You never see Margaery or Joffrey doing this. And with Tommen, they surrounded Margy day and night with her cousins to protect her virtue, which is utterly imaginary at this point. Please put your 21st Century mindset aside for a moment and accept the reality that medieval people, particularly lords and kings, expected their brides to be virgins at their weddings and went to great lengths to ensure that they were.

Um, well, there is ample evidence that Joffrey had no problem at all hurting Sansa, but that comes later. As for Cersei, she knows she can't just up and dump Sansa without good reason -- betrothals are a serious matter in this culture. It took a rebellion and a new alliance to do it properly. But as you say, absence of evidence should not be taken as proof of anything, and that includes Cersei's supposed approval of this match.

 

[Nevets]

33 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, well, there is ample evidence that Joffrey had no problem at all hurting Sansa, but that comes later. As for Cersei, she knows she can't just up and dump Sansa without good reason -- betrothals are a serious matter in this culture. It took a rebellion and a new alliance to do it properly. But as you say, absence of evidence should not be taken as proof of anything, and that includes Cersei's supposed approval of this match.

So, in other words, you can give me no reason to believe that either Cersei or Joffrey had any intent to harm Sansa, or indeed, any animus toward her at all during this period.  Good to know.   I will therefore consider this theory as being non-operative until such time as I am given a solid reason to believe otherwise.