The SEAGUL at the kingsmoot

[Chancho]

There is some talking about Farwynds being wargs and after that there is this loud SEAGUL, that seats at the top of nagga's ribs and "answers" Aeron questions and cheer candidates... Could that be the Blood Raven or someone else, maybe i'm just trying too hard?

[Corvo the Crow]

If my time in the forums have thought me anything, it is that when in doubt, Bloodraven did it.

[Seams]

Mormont's raven is the model for a lot of these birds that seem to interact with humans. The raven seems to carry the consciousness of past Lord Commanders, in my opinion. Bloodraven tells Bran that he will pick up the presence of other, past skinchangers when he skinchanges into a crow.

Orell's eagle may be another example, and we know that is skinchanged.

So you are probably right that this seagull is part of this pattern. You might want to examine references to Gulltown, an important location for the rise of Petyr Baelish.

A major hint about the "little bird" motif comes in the form of the bird pies served at wedding feasts. Joffrey's pie was all pigeon, but the pie served in The Mystery Knight contained many kinds of birds.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If my time in the forums have thought me anything, it is that when in doubt, Bloodraven did it.

I agree. Especially when birds are involved.

[Pukisbaisals]

9 hours ago, Chancho said:

There is some talking about Farwynds being wargs and after that there is this loud SEAGUL, that seats at the top of nagga's ribs and "answers" Aeron questions and cheer candidates

When you brought my attention to the seagulls, I looked through the books and found this, not sure if it was meaningful:

In AGoT when Arya is trapped in Kings Landing after arrest of her father:

Quote

A gull wheeled overhead as she made her way down the hill toward Flea Bottom. Arya glanced at it thoughtfully, but it was well beyond the reach of her stick. It made her think of the sea. Maybe that was the way out.

Ambush awaited for Arya in the port, but later she received help from Yoren.

 

In ASoS when Davos after the battle of the  Blackwater was washed up on a small island:

Quote

A cloud of gulls swirled about it constantly

Finally ship came to the island and Davos was rescued.

 

[Chancho]

Indeed, interesting observation-catch, maybe Martin can answer this one someday! He is so toughtful about this things, that is hard to think a seagul is just a seagul sometimes!

[John Suburbs]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 2:37 AM, Chancho said:

There is some talking about Farwynds being wargs and after that there is this loud SEAGUL, that seats at the top of nagga's ribs and "answers" Aeron questions and cheer candidates... Could that be the Blood Raven or someone else, maybe i'm just trying too hard?

That's my take. If not Bloodraven directly then through the raven-net back to him in his cave.

I'm also suspicious of the dog at the end of the Purple Wedding. If Starks can warg their wolves at the point of death, as evidenced by Bran, Robb and Jon (plus Varamyr), then is it possible that Ned leaped into a stray dog at the Sept of Baelor, and might that dog have made its way into the Red Keep to give his murderer a last condescending sniff as the light went out of his eyes?

 

 

[chrisdaw]

Scavanger animals. Remember the skinchanger takes on traits of the animal.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

This caught my eye just now when I did a cursory search for Gull. 

AFFC:The Krackens Daughter

Quote

"The Damphair has not japed since he was drowned. And the other priests have taken up the call. Blind Beron Blacktyde, Tarle the Thrice-Drowned . . . even the Old Grey Gull has left that rock he lives on to preach this kingsmoot all across Harlaw. The captains are gathering on Old Wyk as we speak."

Here Victarion refers to a man as the Old Grey Gull, and that man has come from a rock he lives on to preach the Kingsmoot. He's doing so all over the most densely populated Isle. 

Then the segment you refer to in your OP. 

AFFC: The Drowned Man. 

Quote

Lord Gylbert began to speak. He told of a wondrous land beyond the Sunset Sea, a land without winter or want, where death had no dominion. "Make me your king, and I shall lead you there," he cried. "We will build ten thousand ships as Nymeria once did and take sail with all our people to the land beyond the sunset. There every man shall be a king and every wife a queen."

His eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas. Mad eyes, he thought, fool's eyes. The vision he spoke of was doubtless a snare set by the Storm God to lure the ironborn to destruction. The offerings that his men spilled out before the kingsmoot included sealskins and walrus tusks, arm rings made of whalebone, warhorns banded in bronze. The captains looked and turned away, leaving lesser men to help themselves to the gifts. When the fool was done talking and his champions began to shout his name, only the Farwynds took up the cry, and not even all of them. Soon enough the cries of "Gylbert! Gylbert King!" faded away to silence. The gull screamed loudly above them, and landed atop one of Nagga's ribs as the Lord of the Lonely Light made his way back down the hill.

"Who shall rule the ironborn?" Aeron Damphair called again. "Who shall be king over us?"

Men looked at one another. Some looked at Euron, some at Victarion, a few at Asha. Waves broke green and white against the longships. The gull cried once more, a raucous scream, forlorn. 

And later in the same chapter. 

Quote

Euron Greyjoy climbed the hill slowly, with every eye upon him. Above the gull screamed and screamed again. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair, Aeron thought, but he knew that he must let his brother speak. His lips moved silently in prayer.

and then. 

ADWD: The Wayward Bride. 

Quote

"The Anvil-Breaker is searching for the Damphair too. He is hunting down the Drowned Men. Blind Beron Blacktyde was taken and put to the question. Even the Old Grey Gull was given shackles. How will you find the priest when all of Euron's men cannot?"

So we have an old man referred to as the Old Grey Gull. And we know he lives on a Rock. Farwyndof the Lonely Light is the smallest Isle in the Iron Islands and so seems a likely candidate for being described as a rock.  Gylbert FarwyndLord of the Lonely Light is the man speaking when the gull appears and he is described as an old man. When Gylberts plea is denied the gull is forlorn, and when Euron turns up it is screaming repeatedly; this implies terror/anger. And is in line with Euron's presence and the possibility of him as King. Then lastly once again there is a reference to a lord known as the old grey gull. 

I suspect you are correct. And the Farwynds of Lonely Light are indeed skinchangers and that Gulls are amongst their familiars. We know they are rumoured to slip seals, whales etc. But this seems to me to be a heavy implication that the old grey gull is Gylbert Farwynd and that the Gull at the Kingsmoot was his familiar.  

[Chancho]

Interesting, thanks for sharing your insight, cool theory.

[White Ravens]

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

That's my take. If not Bloodraven directly then through the raven-net back to him in his cave.

I'm also suspicious of the dog at the end of the Purple Wedding. If Starks can warg their wolves at the point of death, as evidenced by Bran, Robb and Jon (plus Varamyr), then is it possible that Ned leaped into a stray dog at the Sept of Baelor, and might that dog have made its way into the Red Keep to give his murderer a last condescending sniff as the light went out of his eyes?

 

 

Fanciful.  GRRM gave us the Varamyr Sixskins prologue in Dance to lay out the workings of skinchanging and warging in broad strokes.  In this chapter we learned that skinchanging usually happens between beings that have some familiarity and comfort between them.  Bran wargs Hodor in the books but the Varamyr chapter informs us that part of the that interaction is borne out of familiarity and trust and also from the fact that Hodor is simple.  Ned is surprised when his children turn out to be wargs and he is furthermore not a superstitious guy so he didn't spend much time thinking about warging and how it works until his own kids endied up displaying the talent themselves.  I doubt that Ned, someone who didn't appear to even believe in warging or at least didn't believe that warging was anything other than something that people used to be able to do back when magic was more of a thing, suddenly took over the mind of a dog on his death  bed and then went into the Red Keep to gloat over Joffrey's corpse.

[White Ravens]

17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Scavanger animals. Remember the skinchanger takes on traits of the animal.

So are crows and ravens.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:37 PM, Chancho said:

There is some talking about Farwynds being wargs and after that there is this loud SEAGUL, that seats at the top of nagga's ribs and "answers" Aeron questions and cheer candidates... Could that be the Blood Raven or someone else, maybe i'm just trying too hard?

bloodraven wargs everything. He is george and the whole story happens because he is bored in a root ball so he skinchanges everyone and everything. The story is pretty stupid when you look at it that way but hey, here we are  

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Fanciful.  GRRM gave us the Varamyr Sixskins prologue in Dance to lay out the workings of skinchanging and warging in broad strokes.  In this chapter we learned that skinchanging usually happens between beings that have some familiarity and comfort between them.  Bran wargs Hodor in the books but the Varamyr chapter informs us that part of the that interaction is borne out of familiarity and trust and also from the fact that Hodor is simple.  Ned is surprised when his children turn out to be wargs and he is furthermore not a superstitious guy so he didn't spend much time thinking about warging and how it works until his own kids endied up displaying the talent themselves.  I doubt that Ned, someone who didn't appear to even believe in warging or at least didn't believe that warging was anything other than something that people used to be able to do back when magic was more of a thing, suddenly took over the mind of a dog on his death  bed and then went into the Red Keep to gloat over Joffrey's corpse.

Sure, there are plenty of reasons to doubt this, but who knows exactly how warging works? Varamyr also warged a shadowcat and a bear. Did he build familiarity and trust with these wild animals before he warged them? Bran wargs a raven and only later realizes there is another warg already in there. Did he bond with the raven or its occupant first?

Varamyr's mentor, Haggon, said dogs are the easiest to bond with because they live with humans and are trusting of them.

I don't recall Ned ever considering the possibility that his children are wargs. Best I can recall is that he sees the wolves as pets.

And I know GR adds a lot of detail to his writing that have little to do with the main story, but I can't imagine why he would choose to place a random dog at the end of Joffrey's death scene. There is absolutely no reason for it, and in fact detracts from the drama on the page because suddenly we are wondering, why is there a dog here?

[Lost Melnibonean]

About the screaming gull, here are the relevant parts of the chapter...

Quote

"He shall. He must." Aeron's voice thundered like the waves. "But who? Who shall sit in Balon's place? Who shall rule these holy isles? Is he here among us now?" The priest spread his hands wide. "Who shall be king over us?"

A seagull screamed back at him. The crowd began to stir, like men waking from a dream. Each man looked at his neighbors, to see which of them might presume to claim a crown. The Crow's Eye was never patient, Aeron Damphair told himself. Mayhaps he will speak first. If so, it would be his undoing. The captains and the kings had come a long way to this feast and would not choose the first dish set before them. They will want to taste and sample, a bite of him, a nibble of the other, until they find the one that suits them best.

. . .

Soon enough the cries of "Gylbert! Gylbert King!" faded away to silence. The gull screamed loudly above them, and landed atop one of Nagga's ribs as the Lord of the Lonely Light made his way back down the hill.

Aeron Damphair stepped forward once more. "I ask again. Who shall be king over us?"

"Me!" a deep voice boomed, and once more the crowd parted.

The speaker was borne up the hill in a carved driftwood chair carried on the shoulders of his grandsons.

. . .

"Who shall rule the ironborn?" Aeron Damphair called again. "Who shall be king over us?"

Men looked at one another. Some looked at Euron, some at Victarion, a few at Asha. Waves broke green and white against the longships. The gull cried once more, a raucous scream, forlorn. "Make your claim, Victarion," the Merlyn called. "Let us have done with this mummer's farce."

"When I am ready," Victarion shouted back.

. . .

The hornblower's breath failed at last. He staggered and almost fell. The priest saw Orkwood of Orkmont catch him by one arm to hold him up, whilst Left-Hand Lucas Codd took the twisted black horn from his hands. A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who'd sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too.

Euron Greyjoy climbed the hill slowly, with every eye upon him. Above the gull screamed and screamed again. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair, Aeron thought, but he knew that he must let his brother speak. His lips moved silently in prayer.

Asha's champions stepped aside, and Victarion's as well. The priest took a step backward and put one hand upon the cold rough stone of Nagga's ribs. The Crow's Eye stopped atop the steps, at the doors of the Grey King's Hall, and turned his smiling eye upon the captains and the kings, but Aeron could feel his other eye as well, the one that he kept hidden.

The Drowned Man, Feast 19

The seagull was associated with the sea god of Irish mythology, Lir. And seagulls, like ravens, have been depicted as messengers between the real and mystical worlds. Notice here that the seagull screams the first time when Aeron asks, “Who shall be king over us?” This is reminiscent of Jeor’s crow and Jon.

After the first claimant is rejected, the seagull perches on Nagga’s Ribs. We know that Nagga is sacred to the Ironmen, and The Reader tells Asha...

Quote

“When last the salt kings and the rock kings met in kingsmoot, Urron of Orkmont let his axemen loose among them, and Nagga's ribs turned red with gore. House Greyiron ruled unchosen for a thousand years from that dark day, until the Andals came.”

The Kraken's Daughter, Feast 11

So, perhaps it is a foreshadowing of Euron’s purge. 

The fourth time the Drowned God’s messenger cries, it sounds forlorn, or hopeless. That’s when Victarion announces he will hear other claims before making his own. The last time we hear from the gull, it screams again and again as Euron makes his claim, and Aeron thinks that no godless man may sit the Seastone Chair. 

[The WolfSpider]

On 6/2/2018 at 11:28 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This caught my eye just now when I did a cursory search for Gull. 

AFFC:The Krackens Daughter

Here Victarion refers to a man as the Old Grey Gull, and that man has come from a rock he lives on to preach the Kingsmoot. He's doing so all over the most densely populated Isle. 

Then the segment you refer to in your OP. 

AFFC: The Drowned Man. 

And later in the same chapter. 

and then. 

ADWD: The Wayward Bride. 

So we have an old man referred to as the Old Grey Gull. And we know he lives on a Rock. Farwyndof the Lonely Light is the smallest Isle in the Iron Islands and so seems a likely candidate for being described as a rock.  Gylbert FarwyndLord of the Lonely Light is the man speaking when the gull appears and he is described as an old man. When Gylberts plea is denied the gull is forlorn, and when Euron turns up it is screaming repeatedly; this implies terror/anger. And is in line with Euron's presence and the possibility of him as King. Then lastly once again there is a reference to a lord known as the old grey gull. 

I suspect you are correct. And the Farwynds of Lonely Light are indeed skinchangers and that Gulls are amongst their familiars. We know they are rumoured to slip seals, whales etc. But this seems to me to be a heavy implication that the old grey gull is Gylbert Farwynd and that the Gull at the Kingsmoot was his familiar.  

My only bone of contention is the Old Grey Gull being Gylbert. I'm pretty sure OGG is a priest not a lord and that was a bit of a reach on your part but a Farwynd taking a gull seems plausible. And cool.  

[The WolfSpider]

On 6/3/2018 at 1:53 PM, John Suburbs said:

Sure, there are plenty of reasons to doubt this, but who knows exactly how warging works? Varamyr also warged a shadowcat and a bear. Did he build familiarity and trust with these wild animals before he warged them? Bran wargs a raven and only later realizes there is another warg already in there. Did he bond with the raven or its occupant first?

Varamyr's mentor, Haggon, said dogs are the easiest to bond with because they live with humans and are trusting of them.

I don't recall Ned ever considering the possibility that his children are wargs. Best I can recall is that he sees the wolves as pets.

And I know GR adds a lot of detail to his writing that have little to do with the main story, but I can't imagine why he would choose to place a random dog at the end of Joffrey's death scene. There is absolutely no reason for it, and in fact detracts from the drama on the page because suddenly we are wondering, why is there a dog here?

I also believe there has to be a pre-existing connection to have the second life.  

The dog could have been Bloodraven lol. Or just a dash of realism as there frequently were dogs around in medieval times.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:37 PM, Chancho said:

There is some talking about Farwynds being wargs and after that there is this loud SEAGUL, that seats at the top of nagga's ribs and "answers" Aeron questions and cheer candidates... Could that be the Blood Raven or someone else, maybe i'm just trying too hard?

Bloodraven is GRRM and the whole story happens because he is stuck in a tree. It isn't just the seagull. He is skinchanging literally everyone in the story. 

[Giant Ice Spider]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 6:25 AM, John Suburbs said:

That's my take. If not Bloodraven directly then through the raven-net back to him in his cave.

I'm also suspicious of the dog at the end of the Purple Wedding. If Starks can warg their wolves at the point of death, as evidenced by Bran, Robb and Jon (plus Varamyr), then is it possible that Ned leaped into a stray dog at the Sept of Baelor, and might that dog have made its way into the Red Keep to give his murderer a last condescending sniff as the light went out of his eyes?

 

 

Impossible. Orell's spirit began to fade in late ASOS, having entered the eagle mid-ACOK. Ned was, obvs, executed at the end of AGOT. The Purple Wedding can't have been more than a few weeks before we learn Varamyr took over Orell's eagle. So Ned would have been in the dog even longer than Orell was in the eagle, hence more of Ned would have faded.

Perhaps enough of Ned remained, but I highly doubt it.

[BalerionTheCat]

I read the passage again. Yes, the seagull, just this one, is quite obtrusive. Could be Bloodraven GRRM having his fun at the kingsmoot. Or some impotent manifestation of the Drowned God.

For the dog, some have the theory it was Joffrey, just transferred into the nearest dog. Quite funny IMO.

Plenty of little things with animal, having no import for the big story. Not theses ones.

[John Suburbs]

9 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Impossible. Orell's spirit began to fade in late ASOS, having entered the eagle mid-ACOK. Ned was, obvs, executed at the end of AGOT. The Purple Wedding can't have been more than a few weeks before we learn Varamyr took over Orell's eagle. So Ned would have been in the dog even longer than Orell was in the eagle, hence more of Ned would have faded.

Perhaps enough of Ned remained, but I highly doubt it.

They fade, but are never gone completely. Bran still senses the spirit of a "long-dead" child in the raven he enters, and it could have been there for years.

Orell was still in control of his bird enough to attack Jon some months later, who is to say Ned could not have had enough control to make his way into the Red Keep by the time of the PW?