Jump to content

Let’s get some things off our chests


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Chancho said:

Well regarding Jaime defending Elia and the others... He was the only kingsguard there and he was with Kings Aerys so he COULDN't be with the others because he is only one... Oswell, Gerald and Arthur could be there but the choose not to, so if there is a more probably reason why everyone got fucked up, it's they, one king's guard in King's Landing only... Jaime was truly stupid in not concerning about the safety of the children, but he was 17 and just killed the king and there as an army entering so nobody i sure of the exactly timing things happen.

There is also no reason in the books to think he was concerned only about westerman...

He killed the king then sat on that ugly throne smiling all while his father and fellow Westernmen raped, murdered, and terrorized the innocent men, women and children of Kings Landing. 

As a Kingsguard Jaime should have protected the royal family. He should have went to Elia and her children after murdering the king. All Jaime did was sit on the throne smiling while Elia was brutally raped and her and her children so unfairly murdered. Yeah, it is his fault he didn’t protect them. His excuse that he didn’t know that Tywin would do that is just bullshit. 

Jaime didn’t save Kings Landing because of the people, we see that he doesn’t give a damn about Kings Landing through his chapters and actions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I actually find all of this so interesting because LF thinks he's awesome at playing the game, but there is a lot of information that he doesn't have with regard to whatever he is plotting using Sansa.

Add 5.

Spoiler

He's just hired the Mad Mouse as a sellsword, who we saw earlier in a Brienne chapter discussing his search for Sansa Stark and the Big Reward.

Back on topic, I agree with everything One eyed Misbehavin said. To elaborate on Arya, she's often her harshest critic. It was significant that she blamed Lady and Mycah's deaths on herself first of all, and it took Ned to remind her that it was Cersei's overreaction and Sandor Clegane's blind obedience that were mostly to blame. Sansa never stopped thinking of Arya as the only reason Lady was killed, and her sweet day ruined. Arya made some short term, poorly thought out decisions on who Jaqen should kill, and when she realized this, regretted it deeply. She's never been comfortable with killing the stable boy who threatened to rape and kill her, much less the Northman guarding the hunter's gate at Harrenhal. She's fully aware that her mother never really liked her that much. And that's pretty harsh for a child to accept.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Sansa has a shitload of information on him, like how he told Lysa to poison her husband so that they can be together, how he told her to write the letter to Catelyn that the Lannisters had him murdered. 

Problem is that Sansa seemingly forgot about it or probably considers it babbling of some mad jealous woman.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

then sat on that ugly throne smiling all while his father and fellow Westernmen

Who says Jaime was "smiling"? Who says he had the slightest idea that his father had loosed his men to sack King's Landing? How could Jaime, in the throne room, possibly have known about Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, rappelling up the sides of Maegor's? We know from what he said that he killed the pyromancer and killed Aerys to prevent them from setting off the wildfire conflagration that would have destroyed the city. End of story, unless we get another POV with additional information, not uninformed speculation.

I see Jaime as being more in shock from the enormity of what people would call his crimes. It was bad enough that he had disobeyed his vows to kill the King he'd sworn his life to protect. But he did it, not to turn traitor and join "Robert's Rebellion", but to preserve the lives of the people in King's Landing. How was he supposed to join his father's men in killing and looting? For that matter, how could one knight stop a vast army, once it had run wild? (And how was he to know, as I noted.)

So he was sitting on the big iron chair. Big deal. I think Ned overreacted with his disapproving look, and Jaime's guilt caused him to overinterpret it. What gets me is how, 15 years later, Jaime still hasn't alerted anyone to the major hazmat danger that is beneath the city. Thankfully Tyrion had much of it removed and "destroyed".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

He killed the king then sat on that ugly throne smiling all while his father and fellow Westernmen raped, murdered, and terrorized the innocent men, women and children of Kings Landing.  

As a Kingsguard Jaime should have protected the royal family. He should have went to Elia and her children after murdering the king. All Jaime did was sit on the throne smiling while Elia was brutally raped and her and her children so unfairly murdered. Yeah, it is his fault he didn’t protect them. His excuse that he didn’t know that Tywin would do that is just bullshit. 

Jaime didn’t save Kings Landing because of the people, we see that he doesn’t give a damn about Kings Landing through his chapters and actions. 

Again we don't know the timing exactly, is fishy as fuck you got a point, every angle looks bad on him, but intention and malice wise we can't really get proof from the books, remember Jaime is a teen, no nothing of horrors of war, he was naive as they come being manipulated by Cersei and Aerys not long before... Do you think the worst of your father i know most people don't, even when they clearly should...

He could very well thinked the worst is pass, because the mad king is gone and Tywin the man who let things in order for years and years is back.... His father by the way, "came" to clean the mess or so Jaime might tought .

You don't need to give a fuck about people in daily basis and still think is absurd for somebody to try wipe them off the face of the world...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

1. I think Arya is one of the most self-aware characters in all the books. It’s her greatest strength 

Not really.  The Faceless Men are leading her about by the nose, manipulating her in grand fashion.  At this point,, it's not clear that she even really knows who she is, much less what she is going to do with her life.  I think she will get it together eventually,, but right now,, not so much.

22 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

4. If Stannis doesn’t live long enough to battle the Others then GRRM messes up.... yes I went there.

I would agree that Stannis's story is nowhere near over.  He still has a confrontation with daenerys,and I too would be surprised if he does not battle the Others.  I think that may well be his destiny; to die fighting the chief menace of Westeros.

22 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

5. The LF Vale plot is trying too hard.... LF is too lucky there’s no way to cover that 

LF isn't the main character of the Vale plot.  Sansa is.  Littlefinger's machinations are a way for Sansa to learn political maneuvering so that she can become a player.  And his luck will run out right about the time Sansa comes into her own.  And not coincidentally, either.

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

3. He thinks he has the trump card on the Boltons with Jeyne Poole. He doesn't. Most of the people inside Winterfell seem to be very aware that the girl is not Arya. If he thought he'd be able to pull the rug from under Roose and rouse the north for Sansa, that's not going to happen.

I am not as convinced as everyone else that Jeyne's falsity is widely known.  Nobody in the North has seen Arya for at least 2 years (since she went South), and those that had seen her are either dead or would have seen her only briefly.  She looks close enough to pass.  The reason that no one will help her is that there is no place to hide her, and when the Boltons talk about stripping skin from someone, they really mean it.

In any case, Sansa takes precedence over Arya, and the Boltons are widely hated, so their having Arya is no bar to Sansa's success.  Plus, any claim by Littlefinger that Jeyne is fake would be denounced as a self-serving lie.  (The same is true of Jon, if he were to say something)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

can you give some examples of Littlefinger's luck ?

Jon Arryn didn’t find out and therefore execute him for tanking the economy

He is the lifelong love of his lifelong love interest’s sister. That sister (he doesn’t care about) ends up getting him a small council job advising the king.

That sister has a castle thought to be impenetrable and is technically in command via SR of one of the larger standing armies. Oh and she will do anything LF wants by the way

He was given a Lord Paramount gig and the biggest castle in the world for asking “hey Lord tyrell and Lady Olenna how would you like to marry your widowed Marg to a king who’s family is loaded?”..... like come on LP of riverlands and harenhall for that? 

Marillion 

The entire city guard actually responding to “the man who pays them” rather than idk asking what the fuck was happening  

Dontos actually not screwing up his Sansa plan

Getting away with his brand spanking new “14 year old” bastard daughter

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Chancho said:

You make a lot of great observations and everyone can be a unreliable pov, even Ned, who was trully disgusted after knowing the king's guard killed the king.

Another point is that we dint know the ins and outs of how long it took jame to hunt down the men setting wildfire etc and totaly kill em when the mad king was pondering  burning kingslanding

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/1/2018 at 2:56 AM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

5. The LF Vale plot is trying too hard.... LF is too lucky there’s no way to cover that

I consider that a feature, not a bug. LF is indeed more lucky than he has any right to be. He lives on borrowed luck, actually, and the day the luck bank calls the debt, the day the dice will suddenly start rolling against Littlefinger... Oh, it would be glorious. If GRRM some day finished the damn series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Jon Arryn didn’t find out and therefore execute him for tanking the economy

 

when did he tank the economy? certainly not while Jon Arryn was alive. the economy was fine while Littlefinger was Master of Coin, the Iron Throne paid it's debts and Littlefinger increased the revenue ten fold. it wasn't until a massive civil was (civil wars tend to destroy economies) and horrible mismanagement by Cersei that the Iron Thrones finances went to hell.

 

9 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

 

The entire city guard actually responding to “the man who pays them” rather than idk asking what the fuck was happening  

 

people responding to the man who pays them is pretty much how everything works in most cases.

 

9 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

He was given a Lord Paramount gig and the biggest castle in the world for asking “hey Lord tyrell and Lady Olenna how would you like to marry your widowed Marg to a king who’s family is loaded?”..... like come on LP of riverlands and harenhall for that? 

 

the alliance with the Tyrells is the most important event in the war for the Iron Throne , it saved the Lannisters and Littlefinger was the one who made it happened. Not to mention he also promised to bring the Vale back to the Iron Throne , he earned his titles.

 

9 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

He is the lifelong love of his lifelong love interest’s sister. That sister (he doesn’t care about) ends up getting him a small council job advising the king.

 

 

actually she got him the job as a  customs officer in Gulltown and his skill at that job gets John to make him Master of Coin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1: Littlefinger isn't anywhere near as clever or all controlling as so many believe. 

2: Ditto Varys. 

3: Mellisandre is a fire wight and used to be a temple prostitute. Moqorro is also a Fire Wight.

4: Jon isn't dead and won't be resurrected this early on in the story; not ruling it out as an end game plot though. 

5: Sansa will kill Littlefinger and have his head mounted on Winterfells Battlements. 

6: Woods witches are much more important and influential than most people think.  

7: Dany's not mad or bad. 

8: The Oily Black Stone is the second moon 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, zandru said:

So he was sitting on the big iron chair. Big deal. I think Ned overreacted with his disapproving look, and Jaime's guilt caused him to overinterpret it.

Despite what he says later on, I think young Jaime was looking for an "atta boy" from Ned. For putting an end to Aerys and the pyro's that killed Ned's kin and so many others. Had Ned greeted young Jaime as a friend and bothered to ask him what all happened maybe Jaime would have told him about Aerys' wildfire plan. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

when did he tank the economy? certainly not while Jon Arryn was alive. the economy was fine while Littlefinger was Master of Coin, the Iron Throne paid it's debts and Littlefinger increased the revenue ten fold. it wasn't until a massive civil was (civil wars tend to destroy economies) and horrible mismanagement by Cersei that the Iron Thrones finances went to hell.

 

people responding to the man who pays them is pretty much how everything works in most cases.

 

the alliance with the Tyrells is the most important event in the war for the Iron Throne , it saved the Lannisters and Littlefinger was the one who made it happened. Not to mention he also promised to bring the Vale back to the Iron Throne , he earned his titles.

 

actually she got him the job as a  customs officer in Gulltown and his skill at that job gets John to make him Master of Coin.

The bolded part is simply not true. He increased Gulltown’s revenue tenfold 

Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin.

And yes he tanked the crown.....

"What treasury is that?" Littlefinger replied with a twist of his mouth. "Spare me the foolishness, Maester. You know as well as I that the treasury has been empty for years. I shall have to borrow the money. No doubt the Lannisters will be accommodating. We owe Lord Tywin some three million dragons at present, what matter another hundred thousand?"

Ned was stunned. "Are you claiming that the Crown is three million gold pieces in debt?"

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt, Lord Stark. The Lannisters are the biggest part of it, but we have also borrowed from Lord Tyrell, the Iron Bank of Braavos, and several Tyroshi trading cartels. Of late I've had to turn to the Faith. The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger."

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree if LF deserved that LP position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

We will have to agree to disagree if LF deserved that LP position.

i forgot to mention that Littlefinger also was the one who convinced the Gold Cloaks to support Cersie thereby saving Joffreys crown from Ned . So he saved Joffreys crown , brought the Vale back into the King's peace and arranged the alliance that won the war so it seems to me that he earned the LP position . Not to mention he has skillfully carefully crafted a persona that is a threat to no one that worked in his favor for Tywin in appointing him LP .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

The bolded part is simply not true. He increased Gulltown’s revenue tenfold 

Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin.

And yes he tanked the crown.....

.

He also increased the crown revenue ten fold as Tyrion stated .

Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had been under his beleaguered predecessor . . . though the crown's debts had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

If he tanked the crown he did it so skillfully that nobody has an idea that he did it . Even after all this time Cersei still has nothing but positive feelings for him so why would Jon have any negative feelings for him at that time ? The reason that the treasury was empty was because Littlefinger turned the treasury into an investment bank and banks do not keep their gold sitting in their vaults instead they lend it out and keep it working just like Littlefinger did . As Hand Jon would have been aware of what Littlefinger was doing and must have approved.

Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

He also increased the crown revenue ten fold as Tyrion stated .

Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had been under his beleaguered predecessor . . . though the crown's debts had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

If he tanked the crown he did it so skillfully that nobody has an idea that he did it . Even after all this time Cersei still has nothing but positive feelings for him so why would Jon have any negative feelings for him at that time ? The reason that the treasury was empty was because Littlefinger turned the treasury into an investment bank and banks do not keep their gold sitting in their vaults instead they lend it out and keep it working just like Littlefinger did . As Hand Jon would have been aware of what Littlefinger was doing and must have approved.

Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

Ok my bad I was thinking strictly in terms of profit rather than revenue.

I understand the reasoning of why the Lannisters rewarded him. I just think LP is way too much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Ok my bad I was thinking strictly in terms of profit rather than revenue.

I understand the reasoning of why the Lannisters rewarded him. I just think LP is way too much.

you may be right about that . Becoming a LP is a pretty rare achievement , House Baelish  is the first House to become a new  LP in 300 years . But who else could Tywin pick ? Clearly Tywin did not want to give it to the Freys for some reason. Giving it to a Western Lord would have been resisted by the Riverlands , Littlefinger has no bad blood in the Riverlands but he is no threat to the Iron Throne ( as far as Tywin knows ) and has shown loyalty to the Lannisters so he seemed a safe choice for Tywin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. I think that Sansa has her own sort of courage. I don't think she's particularly clever, at least not compared to other characters, but in her own way she demonstrates courage, such as when Joff forced her to look at Ned's tarred head and she just stared at it expressionless, refusing to give him the reaction he wanted. And her obeying the Lannisters is in a way her own sort of weapon, keeping her safe. Dany and Cersei have their status and those around them, Arya and Brienne have their swords, for Sansa it is her ability to hold her head high and not balk that keeps her alive.

2. All you were saying about Jaime(I'm too lazy to quote all of you), you have to remember that he was young, and he was human. And perhaps he could have done more, but given his mindset that the time I don't know how much more he was really capable of. He speaks to Brienne in ASOS and later Tommen in AFFC about 'going away inside' when facing something particularly distressing. Sounds to me like dissociation in response to the trauma around him. Jaime is barely holding it together, I think he did the best he could.

3. I wonder how much Jaime and Cersei's relationship had to do with the death of their mother. I mean, I know that before she died Lady Joanna was aware that Jaime and Cersei had been fooling around inappropriately and had made efforts to separate the two, but she died shortly after so it likely didn't make an impact. I also wonder if losing his mother at a young age may have had the effect of drawing Jaime closer to Cersei, being that she was now the only female figure in his life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, JaneSnow said:

1. I think that Sansa has her own sort of courage. I don't think she's particularly clever, at least not compared to other characters,

i actually think she is very clever . If you carefully read her chapters in AFFC you see somebody who is very perceptive , she was able to figure out that Lyn Cordray was working for Littlefinger when nobody else has a clue add that to her ability to seamlessly assume the role of Alayne (not an easy thing to do ) including manipulating Robin leads me to believe that she has a very clever mind and combine that with her beauty and her blood and you could have a very dangerous opponent for Littlefinger and anybody else in her way .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...