Let’s get some things off our chests

[Chancho]

Sansa looks pretty smart for a 13-14, she is definitely getting ready to be a influent person with a manipulative skill set... All those Starks seems like prodigy kids to me... Wich is why i like thinking they are a little older in my mind.

By the way a lot of people that talk shit about her, but don't know how is to live under true terror and pressure, Joffrey is terrible and the fact he is a fucking inconsequente boy king makes him so dangerous, wich must be amplified a lot in the Young mind of SANSA.

I would do way way worst... But life is full of arm chair heros, that don't remember how was being Young, naive and vunelrable.

[JaneSnow]

I don't think she's stupid, just perhaps not as clever as some of the others. I think she's very brave, that's probably her best trait in my opinion.

I also think that Joffrey was an interesting character. I mean, he was so stupid it was kind of funny. Same with the iron born. Like the whole 'finger dance' thing? I mean, what kinda people think Hey, lets play catch with axes, that sounds fun and totally safe? 

[Ylath's Snout]

1 People are way too hard on Sansa and tend to forget that she was pre-teen when the story got started.

2 Anyone assuming that Dany reconquiring Westeros will be quick, clean and "nice" are dead wrong.

3 Slaver's Bay will be a shit-show for the foreseeable future and if Dany leaves it is her fault for not fixing what she broke. Slavery and oppression is horrible but "breaking the wheel" and not leaving something robust to take its place is pretty bad too.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

@Blackfish Tully last thing I’m gonna say about LF and I’ll leave you alone. How about the fact Tyrion didn’t have time/ran out of planning time to confront him (aka murder via get Bronn to give that chef some mystery meat) about the dagger tyrion spent some nights in a sky cell over. Not only was LF caught in a lie but also was able to escape the wrath of Tyrion’s power until Blackwater Bay and before as he left before Joff’s wedding to “broker” (ask/tell) the tyrells that they will be marrying their daughter to the king of Westeros. But still got his Gigantic castle from Tywin that Tywin previously had said was a seat of Kings and a Westori Butcher’s son isn’t worthy of such a prize but the grandson of a bravosi hedge knight somehow suits harenhall better.

I’m going to say 2 more and I’m just asking you consider his sequence of events and it’s impossible to not say lucky as hell. 1. Married and murdered Lysa and not only got away but 2. Kept power in the Vale because Lyn Corbray drew steel? And Nestor Royce is ambitious? A little fake fatherly love for SR?

 I understand your points very well, cause and effect but even LF himself says 

In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn”

Except if you are LF in which case everything works even “chaos” 

 

[Katerine459]

13 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

@Blackfish Tully last thing I’m gonna say about LF and I’ll leave you alone. How about the fact Tyrion didn’t have time/ran out of planning time to confront him (aka murder via get Bronn to give that chef some mystery meat) about the dagger tyrion spent some nights in a sky cell over. Not only was LF caught in a lie but also was able to escape the wrath of Tyrion’s power until Blackwater Bay and before as he left before Joff’s wedding to “broker” (ask/tell) the tyrells that they will be marrying their daughter to the king of Westeros. But still got his Gigantic castle from Tywin that Tywin previously had said was a seat of Kings and a Westori Butcher’s son isn’t worthy of such a prize but the grandson of a bravosi hedge knight somehow suits harenhall better.

Just wanted to address this one point. This point is... badly handled in the show, but in the books, I think it's quite a bit more believable. In the books, presumably what happened is Catelyn showed LF the dagger, which LF knew belonged to Robert. LF apparently decided, spur of the moment, that telling the love of his life that her son was almost killed with a knife that belonged to her king was a bad idea, so he made up an alternative story. Either that, or he actually knew it was then-prince Joffrey's plan to kill Bran, possibly because Joffrey bragged about it to one of LF's spies. The only place "chaos" factors in, was in his decision to make up an alternative story that might sow some conflict, rather than just telling Cat that he didn't know anything about the dagger.

In which case, if Tyrion had tried to confront LF (which Tyrion avoided doing for a reason... he needed all the pieces to be in place before making a play like that), LF could have just countered with... the truth. And Joffrey would have been solidly on LF's side, because, after all, the lie served his interests more than anybody else's. Tyrion was actually really smart to hold off on confronting LF as long as he knew nothing about who the dagger actually belonged to.

I have issues with the whole idea that LF is this overarching mastermind that's ultimately to blame for everything. That actually runs counter to one of the major themes of the series, which is that events unfold and escalate naturally, because of the individual actions of a whole bunch of people, not just one or two. LF does like to sow chaos. But he doesn't plan it. He seizes little opportunities and sees if they bear fruit, and if they do, they do, and if they don't, they don't. He's a gambler by nature. The risk is part of the thrill. Yes, so far he's been lucky, because he's made some smart bets. He's good at gambling. But yes, eventually his luck will run out, if nothing else, because nobody's lucky streak goes on forever.

[Blackfish Tully]

34 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

@Blackfish Tully last thing I’m gonna say about LF and I’ll leave you alone. How about the fact Tyrion didn’t have time/ran out of planning time to confront him (aka murder via get Bronn to give that chef some mystery meat) about the dagger tyrion spent some nights in a sky cell over. Not only was LF caught in a lie but also was able to escape the wrath of Tyrion’s power until Blackwater Bay and before as he left before Joff’s wedding to “broker” (ask/tell) the tyrells that they will be marrying their daughter to the king of Westeros. But still got his Gigantic castle from Tywin that Tywin previously had said was a seat of Kings and a Westori Butcher’s son isn’t worthy of such a prize but the grandson of a bravosi hedge knight somehow suits harenhall better.

 

 

Tyrion was not ready to make his move on Littlefinger before Blackwater because he did not have all the information he needed plus he had a war to plan and after Blackwater Tyrion had  lost his power and Littlefinger was untouchable . You can call it luck but more than likely Littlefinger was just several steps ahead of everybody , maybe given enough time Tyrion could have moved against him but like Ned he walked into a game that his opponent had years of planning on his side, Tyrion never really had a chance .

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Tyrion was not ready to make his move on Littlefinger before Blackwater because he did not have all the information he needed plus he had a war to plan and after Blackwater Tyrion had  lost his power and Littlefinger was untouchable . You can call it luck but more than likely Littlefinger was just several steps ahead of everybody , maybe given enough time Tyrion could have moved against him but like Ned he walked into a game that his opponent had years of planning on his side, Tyrion never really had a chance .

Yes I just said this in my response 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Sansa is not going to kill Littlefinger .Whether you like Sansa or hate her , she is not a murderer. She may screw up Littlefinger's long plan , whatever that may be .

[hodorisfaclessman]

58 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Sansa is not going to kill Littlefinger .Whether you like Sansa or hate her , she is not a murderer. She may screw up Littlefinger's long plan , whatever that may be .

Id disagree shes been slowly groomed into a player and lf is blindsided by his lust /infatuation for her 

Im actualy betting in true grmm style she will lose her virginity to him then learn hes responsible for her dads death etc...then he dies

[zandru]

On 6/3/2018 at 1:21 AM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Id disagree shes been slowly groomed into a player and lf is blindsided by his lust /infatuation for her 

I get the feeling (and will need more text to actually find out) that Baelish is "training" Sansa to only know what he wants her to. She still takes direction well, and seems to have little if any volition to do things on her own. Thus, I agree that Sansa will not kill Littlefinger, nor will she arrange for anyone else to do it. Her m.o. is passivity, as she thinks a "highborne lady" should act (even though she's playing at being a "bastard".)

At this point (and we have at least two more books to go, so things can dramatically change), I have yet to see Sansa come up with any actions on her own, other than running to the skirts of her beautiful, beloved Queen Cersei in Book 1. The outcome of that may have slapped all the "volition" out of her, at least for a time. That is, assuming Sansa even realizes that it was her tattling that triggered the bloodbath in which all her father's people were slaughtered. She certainly has never revisited this act, much less put any blame on herself. And that's bad. It adds to the conclusion that Sansa has been going through life writing her lovely "song" in which she is the heroine and can do no wrong, regardless of her actual observations, which can be pretty clear and detailed at the time, but seem to be edited out of existence in her memories.

[Azarial]

13 minutes ago, zandru said:

I get the feeling (and will need more text to actually find out) that Baelish is "training" Sansa to only know what he wants her to. She still takes direction well, and seems to have little if any volition to do things on her own. Thus, I agree that Sansa will not kill Littlefinger, nor will she arrange for anyone else to do it. Her m.o. is passivity, as she thinks a "highborne lady" should act (even though she's playing at being a "bastard".)

At this point (and we have at least two more books to go, so things can dramatically change), I have yet to see Sansa come up with any actions on her own, other than running to the skirts of her beautiful, beloved Queen Cersei in Book 1. The outcome of that may have slapped all the "volition" out of her, at least for a time. That is, assuming Sansa even realizes that it was her tattling that triggered the bloodbath in which all her father's people were slaughtered. She certainly has never revisited this act, much less put any blame on herself. And that's bad. It adds to the conclusion that Sansa has been going through life writing her lovely "song" in which she is the heroine and can do no wrong, regardless of her actual observations, which can be pretty clear and detailed at the time, but seem to be edited out of existence in her memories.

I think your post outlines exactly how she is going to take him down. Just swap Cersei with Myranda, who has her bed warmers share secrets. She just needs to pick and choose what secrets she wants to repeat, in order to gain freedom from her gilded cage.

[hodorisfaclessman]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:49 PM, zandru said:

I get the feeling (and will need more text to actually find out) that Baelish is "training" Sansa to only know what he wants her to. She still takes direction well, and seems to have little if any volition to do things on her own. Thus, I agree that Sansa will not kill Littlefinger, nor will she arrange for anyone else to do it. Her m.o. is passivity, as she thinks a "highborne lady" should act (even though she's playing at being a "bastard".)

At this point (and we have at least two more books to go, so things can dramatically change), I have yet to see Sansa come up with any actions on her own, other than running to the skirts of her beautiful, beloved Queen Cersei in Book 1. The outcome of that may have slapped all the "volition" out of her, at least for a time. That is, assuming Sansa even realizes that it was her tattling that triggered the bloodbath in which all her father's people were slaughtered. She certainly has never revisited this act, much less put any blame on herself. And that's bad. It adds to the conclusion that Sansa has been going through life writing her lovely "song" in which she is the heroine and can do no wrong, regardless of her actual observations, which can be pretty clear and detailed at the time, but seem to be edited out of existence in her memories.

Up til now shes been a powerless passenger but shes learning how the game is played and more importantly how to think , now shes ina position where lf is vunerable  and shes getting able to strike

[The Sleeper]

I think that the majority of the readers have exaggerated the influence of LF on the story. He is indeed very, very clever, but people seem to think that makes him a bond villain controlling everything. This has led to some grave misconceptions about his agenda which is nothing more than keeping his head above water and in the money.

Things have not progressed, according to his design. On the contrary he's been stepping ahead of a headsman axe, that is coming his way. Namely the Lannisters killing him when the financial bubble he had created became unsustainable due to the war, or the Tyrells because he knows their role in the regicide.

Likewise in the Vale his plots are mostly horseshit. He has no designs on the North whatsoever. What he wants is a leash on Harry so

he can profit by selling food when the famine settles

in peace.

[Springwatch]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:49 PM, zandru said:

That is, assuming Sansa even realizes that it was her tattling that triggered the bloodbath in which all her father's people were slaughtered

Who knows, if you say that often enough, it might become true.