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Northmen their Cutting Losses


Quoth the raven,

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18 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

If the Red Wedding had not taken place and the Starks continued to make mistakes, do you see any more of their bannermen defecting to Joffrey in order to cut their losses?  We know of the Karstars, ofcourse.  How about Lady Dustin?  If Robb was losing and his chances are fasting diet slim, would Lady Dustin defect to Joffrey's side?

Do you see any more of their bannermen defecting to Joffrey to cut their losses?  Absolutely.  We know Lady Dustin only sent enough men to appease the Starks.  Many of the bannermen did not want to go.  Which is true for most war campaigns.  They only went because they had to.  Scared of the consequences they were.  The Starks dragged them into war for the second time in less than twenty years.  That had to get old.  

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well in actual fact that would have inspired both fear and respect. The Reynes and Tarbecks encouraged the law to break down in the West, the Tarbecks lands grew because they took lands from other westerland nobles. Tywin enforcing and keeping the peace will have been seen as a positive by many, some of those very lords will probably have benefited and swallowed up some of the lands previously ruled by those two houses

Oh I quite agree there's also respect but one just has to look back some 40 years or so to see it wasn't always the case and there's a good portion of the west, amounting to at least 6000 men in strength, who supported neither side during Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion. 

I am not including Boltons to be loyal but they did come and Rodrik thought them to be loyal at the time.

I can't recall Theon spotting Umber men but they didn't have any "men" left, only boys and old men Theon says as much and they didn't get on board with Boltons they split their forces according to age and guess which age group has taken the risky part. Just like Manderly, Whoresbane is with old men.

How many men do Ryswells have? We are never given a figure, but we do have some idea on Ryswell+Dustin numbers through Jon. Stannis still has over a thousand men after taking down Mance and according to Jon Roose + Houses with Ramsay would make 5 times his number. Clearly there isn't that many Ryswells with Ramsay.

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9 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

The boltons dont have to either they are just trying to solidify their rule by driv8ng out a hated enemy

of course they do, where are you getting this from? every character in the series understands the importance of moat cailin, Jon and Stannis' war council point out that 

"Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay's, they will have you outnumbered five to one."

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Robb understands the reeds can lead his forces north through the vast swamplands

no, not all of them. he is quite clear that the brunt of his force have to attack moat cailin to keep the ironborn distracted. i have quoted his plan, where in the books are you getting this idea that he can sneak his entire force in? 

 

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Theyd have apoken of moat calin and its importance and hed have of course told him its not the only route as long as the swampmen have your back

when? what is happening to the northern army has never happened before, they have never been the invading army from the south. i very much doubt that Ned had a serious plan that was unknown to the rest of the realm, especially when his father did not give him more logical advice such as don't strip the winterfell garrison of all its adult guards

 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh I quite agree there's also respect but one just has to look back some 40 years or so to see it wasn't always the case and there's a good portion of the west, amounting to at least 6000 men in strength, who supported neither side during Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion. 

of course, it was a quick war, it was not something that was planned in the open. Tywin was not yet Lord, he had no real authority so relied on Lannister's and his cousin the Marbrands and Presters and struck quickly and decisively. as it progressed and the writing was on the wall houses nearby were able to join Tywin but it was never a conflict that involved the entire West. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I am not including Boltons to be loyal but they did come and Rodrik thought them to be loyal at the time.

They came because of Ramay, not Rodrik. And Rodrik presumed them to be loyal against a foreign enemy, which is quite rational, but was earlier quite angry with both Boltons and Manderly's for their refusal to stop a civil war. 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I can't recall Theon spotting Umber men

 The Umbers are gathering beyond the Last River as well. I'll have an army at my gates before the moon turns, and you bring me only ten men?"

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

but they didn't have any "men" left, only boys and old men

yes they did, they did not send women to fight but men, I made no observation on how competent they would be as soldiers, I suspect the bulk of Rodrik's force were also green boys and old men.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

How many men do Ryswells have? We are never given a figure,

and at no point have I claimed to know, all I stated was they they had some and did not send them to Winterfell to help the Starks but did send men to help Ramsay you disagreed and i provided evidence. this discussion about their numbers is only moving the goalposts

 

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12 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Don't forget the spoils.  Not a few of these lords and soldiers await their booty.

Agreed. To pretend as though the lords of the northern province is as @Bernie Mac says a mistake; they have shown to have no more particular amount of loyalty to their overlord than any other lord from the other realms. Two of some of the most purportedly  "loyal" figures to the Starks(Manderly, Greatjon), likely would let the Starks die if convient for their goals(Manderly revenge, Greatjon war). And not many are so willingly to destroy their house out of some fore lorn sense of loyalty to their overlords in general.This is a feudal society after all. House well-fare first is the prerogative for most lords.If Robb's war continues to prove a abysmall failure many will not join him in suicide; he can kill himself trying to avenge his father; it's close to winter and they need to protect their lands and the people of it. 

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Robb would have faced a mutiny on his hands if he had chosen to remain in the south while the Ironborn continued raiding houses in the north.  The Starks were going to lose when the following happened:  Robb executes Karstark, Robb betrays Walder, and Theon betrays Robb.  Running north would make many folk in the river land break ranks and side with Joff.

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Maybe Roose Bolton had the same idea.  The Starks took a family matter and blown it into a rebellion against the crown.  Twice the Starks have done this.  Roose Bolton probably figured out that the Stark family problems that keep dragging the north into rebellion had to end.  But he had no choice but play at supporting Robb for fear of retaliation.  So he waited his turn and found the right moment to rid the north of the Starks.  

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On 6/4/2018 at 12:34 AM, Bernie Mac said:

of course they do, where are you getting this from? every character in the series understands the importance of moat cailin, Jon and Stannis' war council point out that 

"Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay's, they will have you outnumbered five to one."

 

no, not all of them. he is quite clear that the brunt of his force have to attack moat cailin to keep the ironborn distracted. i have quoted his plan, where in the books are you getting this idea that he can sneak his entire force in? 

 

when? what is happening to the northern army has never happened before, they have never been the invading army from the south. i very much doubt that Ned had a serious plan that was unknown to the rest of the realm, especially when his father did not give him more logical advice such as don't strip the winterfell garrison of all its adult guards

 

 

 

It important yes but that quote isnt relevent to what where discussing

 

Where are you getting that they cant? Its not hard to follow  the plan here..the entire force can bypass calin if they choose to its simply much faster  to lead a large force along the usual route. Hence they plan to distract the ironborne with a frontal atack while small force  easily suprise the garrison from behind

 

Ned doesnt have to have specified a northern force just the significance of the fort and that its not the only route of you have the reeds of your side.

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