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Illyrio dragon eggs. a plot hole?


IceRaven

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I never understood why Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to dany if his master plan was to support Aegon. It seems a waste of money to me, they are really expensive, the better thing to do were to get rid of Viserys in some way, marry dany to Aegon or get rid of her to and just sell the eggs for pay more mercenary, he even knew the  dothraki are scared of the salt water. Is this a plot hole? Because I can't see him doing a master plan to put mirri maz dhur in a random city, hope she will not die and hatch the dragon egg.

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Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to Dany because he didn't know they would hatch. Jorah goes into a whole explanation on that. Illyrio tells Tyrion that he did not expect Dany to survive. I personally have no reason to doubt that he's lying about this. The reason he sends Barristan to fetch her is because she hatched herself 3 dragons, something he must have found out from Jorah when he sent his last message from Qarth.

It's the whole plan for the invasion that's convoluted imo.

Dany is married to Drogo to secure his khalasar who is supposed to join the Golden Company, who was founded by a Targaryen hater, with Viserys who has zero military experience and no leadership skills whatsoever to invade Westeros with 40,000 Dothraki who will murder, rape and burn and enslave, which was ultimately their goal, I' assuming. This was meant to have Westros turn on Viserys very quickly. And the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters was going to happen regardless.

After that they were going to send Aegon in. With what army? Did he and Varys believe that the people of Westeros would flock to Aegon's side once he landed? How does he throw 40,000 Dothraki back into the sea?

Illyrio and Varys seem like they were just flying by the seam of their breeches on this one. The Dothraki plan was risky AF.

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to Dany because he didn't know they would hatch. Jorah goes into a whole explanation on that. Illyrio tells Tyrion that he did not expect Dany to survive. I personally have no reason to doubt that he's lying about this. The reason he sends Barristan to fetch her is because she hatched herself 3 dragons, something he must have found out from Jorah when he sent his last message from Qarth.

It's the whole plan for the invasion that's convoluted imo.

Dany is married to Drogo to secure his khalasar who is supposed to join the Golden Company, who was founded by a Targaryen hater, with Viserys who has zero military experience and no leadership skills whatsoever to invade Westeros with 40,000 Dothraki who will murder, rape and burn and enslave, which was ultimately their goal, I' assuming. This was meant to have Westros turn on Viserys very quickly. And the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters was going to happen regardless.

After that they were going to send Aegon in. With what army? Did he and Varys believe that the people of Westeros would flock to Aegon's side once he landed? How does he throw 40,000 Dothraki back into the sea?

Illyrio and Varys seem like they were just flying by the seam of their breeches on this one. The Dothraki plan was risky AF.

Risky and half baked? I might be forced to agree... but let’s say we give them the benefit of the doubt... an argument could be made that:

The original plan seems to have been Viserys invading with some loner Dothraki (who we also have to note likely face some significant strategical issues if they campaign in Westeros, like walls and winter) and possibly the Golden Company as well. Dany was never expected to return from the Dothraki sea.

It may be that Illyrio and Varys were going to use the Golden Company and Dothraki to invade (maybe assasinate some leadership) and then unite the realm under Aegon to repel them. 

There are hints that Illyrio has other conspirators in Westeros as well, though I don’t think anyone rational, including Illyrio, believes there are common folk sewing dragon banners en mass, there are houses like Darry (who we see has tapestries of Targaryens in their basement).

There is also the odd bit of Redwyn colored clothing Illyrio gives to Tyrion, and the matching Redwyn wine in his cellar linking them.

And this Quote super early on:

"Ten thousand, that would be enough, I could sweep the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand Dothraki screamers. The realm will rise for its rightful king. Tyrell, Redwyne, Darry, Greyjoy, they have no more love for the Usurper than I do. The Dornishmen burn to avenge Elia and her children. And the smallfolk will be with us. They cry out for their king." He looked at Illyrio anxiously. "They do, don't they?"

We know Dorne made a wedding pact with Viserys in Braavos and would have welcomed his return.

Also, it isn’t hard to see why the Tyrells would get on board, given their failed siege of Storms End during Robert’s Rebellion. It may be possible that the gold coin of the Gardeners left by Varys in Rugen’s cell to keep the Tyrells from getting too close to the Lannisters.

And finally the odd one of the group, the Greyjoys... 

I know they had their own rebellion... but do they really belong on the list?

I recognize that it may just be an archaic remnant of the early tale before it was developed, still...

Euron Greyjoy returns at an oddly opportune time... with help from a Faceless Man... and claims to have once had a dragon’s egg...

What if Illyrio gave Dany the old stone eggs for her Wedding because he had acquired a living dragon egg from Euron Greyjoy and in return hired or arranged a Faceless Man kill Balon?

(Note: all wild speculation!)

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It's certainly a confusing deal.

I'm of the opinion that Illyrio and Varys have spent the last 13 odd years obtaining as many dragon eggs as they could. As two architects of a "Dragon Restoration", why wouldn't they?

Being gifted thieves and men of high stature (one a powerful merchant, the other a royal spymaster), I reckon these two would not only have the resources, connections and skills to obtain many eggs, but also the incentive to attempt such a madcap feat - after all, what better way to solidify their "perfect prince" as a real scion of House Targaryen than having an actual dragon?

Of course, no eggs have hatched since the infamous "stunted dragon", but I just can't see the Spider and Cheesemonger letting this put them off such an idea.

I can't quite say why Illyrio would gift three eggs to a 13 year old orphan, but I think some prophecy might be involved. If Mopatis and the Eunuch have indeed spent the last decade preparing to restore Dragons, it might be worth considering that they have also been obtaining as many old sorcery/dragon lore related texts and manuscripts as they could. Perhaps the conspirators have read some version of the Azor Ahai tale, which talks about a young, silver haired orphan, waking dragons from stone.

Varys has that old claim about hating magic, but c'mon, why would a puppeteer such as the Spider not want to learn such arcane skills, after all, magic can be a very useful tool for deception. Same goes for an apparently money obsessed individual like Illyrio.

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A simple way to view the eggs is their value.  Viserys attempts to steal them, knowing he could hire a mercenary company to invade Westeros through their sale.  Ilyrio is notably rich, and Viserys is a king (even as a Beggar King).  Ilyrio is presenting gifts to the sister of King Viserys, marrying the greatest living Khal.  Ilyrio's gift must not simply be lavish and/or expensive (like Mace Tyrell's stupid chalice for Joffrey), but also rare and incomparable.  Ilyrio is attempting to be a king-maker, it takes more than just gold to secure a throne (ask Tywin).

Take Jorah's gift at the same wedding:  Books with Westeros history and lore.  They are not of insignificant value, nor lavishly expensive.  They are a tasteful gift, and surprisingly so from an exiled Westerosi knight.  The gift tells a good deal about Jorah, the exiled lord: He's not just a brute, he's educated, mindful of history, and culturally  aware. 

The eggs were an appropriate (as a giver) and expected (to please Viserys) sort of gift to give the young Khaleesi.  Ilyrio knows what he's doing.

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12 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well it worked out for Illyrio in the end though. Dany has him to thank for the eggs that she hatched, that could end up saving his bacon in the long run. If she asks why he kept "Aegon" from her Illyrio could say he was scared Viserys would harm him. 

Dany refuses the Tattered Prince when asked to invade Pentos, purely out of loyalty to Ilyrio.  It shows her inexperience, both Jorah and Selmy were wary of Ilyrio.  If Tyrion ever ends up in her council, she will have a 3rd Westerosi nobleman telling her that Ilyrio is not aiding her out of virtue.

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2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

It's certainly a confusing deal.

I'm of the opinion that Illyrio and Varys have spent the last 13 odd years obtaining as many dragon eggs as they could. As two architects of a "Dragon Restoration", why wouldn't they?

Being gifted thieves and men of high stature (one a powerful merchant, the other a royal spymaster), I reckon these two would not only have the resources, connections and skills to obtain many eggs, but also the incentive to attempt such a madcap feat - after all, what better way to solidify their "perfect prince" as a real scion of House Targaryen than having an actual dragon?

Of course, no eggs have hatched since the infamous "stunted dragon", but I just can't see the Spider and Cheesemonger letting this put them off such an idea.

I can't quite say why Illyrio would gift three eggs to a 13 year old orphan, but I think some prophecy might be involved. If Mopatis and the Eunuch have indeed spent the last decade preparing to restore Dragons, it might be worth considering that they have also been obtaining as many old sorcery/dragon lore related texts and manuscripts as they could. Perhaps the conspirators have read some version of the Azor Ahai tale, which talks about a young, silver haired orphan, waking dragons from stone.

Varys has that old claim about hating magic, but c'mon, why would a puppeteer such as the Spider not want to learn such arcane skills, after all, magic can be a very useful tool for deception. Same goes for an apparently money obsessed individual like Illyrio.

I like the idea of additional hidden eggs and that a prophecy is involved. We know that Maester Aemon and Rhaegar were communicating about a prophecy, because Aemon admits that they had overlooked the reality that dragons can be both male and female (or something like that). There is apparently a confusing prophecy known to Targaryen insiders and we know that various Targaryens tried various extreme things over the years to hatch dragons.

If the prophecy had to do with the dying out of dragons and their eventual rebirth, Illyrio and Varys may have planned to get eggs to each of the young Targs at various points, hoping one of them would hit on the right technique for hatching the eggs. Dany just happened to hit the jackpot before any of the boys received their eggs.

We know that Jon Connington has Tyrion write down everything he knows about dragons. Arya hears Illyrio and Varys in the depths of the Red Keep say, "he has the bastard and the book," and the reader assumes they mean that Ned has discovered Gendry and the information about Baratheon hair color. But what if they actually mean that the bastard Jon Snow is at Winterfell and the Winterfell library has a book that contains the prophecy or information about hatching dragons? They might be worried that a Targ bastard will hatch dragons without being under their control.

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8 minutes ago, Seams said:

If the prophecy had to do with the dying out of dragons and their eventual rebirth, Illyrio and Varys may have planned to get eggs to each of the young Targs at various points. Dany just happened to hit the jackpot before any of the boys received their eggs.

I can't speak to what Varys and Illyrio are doing, but in the Mystery Knight, Egg mentions that Aerys read in one of his scrolls that the dragons will return again and that his brother Daeron dreamt it. So at the very least, we know there is some kind of prophecy for this.

Obviously, dragons can be of the two-legged variety and of the winged variety. In this case, the prophecy likely refers to both.

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Quote

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

We are told expressly that these three dragon’s eggs are ancient, petrified eggs from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, and we recall that Illyrio is a trader in dragonbone with a trading network that stretches to the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea.

Quote

"I shall treasure them always." Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

Here we learn that the three dragon’s eggs are worth the fortune in horses and slaves that Illyrio collected from Drogo for brokering the marriage pact. Does this mean that Illyrio gave Daenerys to Drogo, so Drogo gave Illyrio a fortune in horses and slaves? If so, then Drogo would not “owe” Viserys a crown, would he? On the other hand, should we believe that Daenerys’s property was, in fact, the property of her husband and khal, and that by giving Daenerys such “a truly magnificent gift,” that Illyrio had upset the gift-giving balance back in his favor? 

Keep in mind this could be nothing more than a plot device. In his 1993 letter, outlining his earliest concept of A Song of Ice and Fire, we see that The George initially intended to have Daenerys stumble upon a nest of petrified dragon’s eggs on the edge of the Dothraki Sea. 

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5 hours ago, IceRaven said:

I never understood why Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to dany if his master plan was to support Aegon. It seems a waste of money to me, they are really expensive, the better thing to do were to get rid of Viserys in some way, marry dany to Aegon or get rid of her to and just sell the eggs for pay more mercenary, he even knew the  dothraki are scared of the salt water. Is this a plot hole? Because I can't see him doing a master plan to put mirri maz dhur in a random city, hope she will not die and hatch the dragon egg.

The important thing to remember is this:  The fat man's plans change as often as he farts.  He tries to adapt.  But whatever the case might have been and whatever his intentions might have been, it no longer matters.  Daenerys hatched the three dragon eggs and proved that she is the Special One.  Maybe young Aegon is the son of Illyrio with a Blackfyre but he has to know that his boy is not as important in the grand scheme of things as the Mother of Dragons.  

So why would he gift three dragons eggs to Princess Daenerys?  In my opinion, the better question is, why not gift three dragons eggs to the princess.  After all, she is the Targaryen princess.  She is a very beautiful young girl.  A Targaryen princess who married the strongest khal in Essos.  It is a fitting gift.  There is no girl or woman in the world who has the heritage and the prestige that Princess Daenerys has.  It would be highly inappropriate for Illyrio to give a substandard gift, especially in front of the esteemed personalities present at the wedding.  He was obligated to and the princess was entitled to those lavish gifts.  

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Well it's obvious that Illyrio and Varys were planning on a Targaryen restoration since the Rebellion as they began cultivating and raising Aegon then. I think it's as simple as putting that plan on the back burner when two Targaryens with unquestioned parentage came under their influence. Keeping Aegon in the background as an insurance policy costs them nothing they haven't already paid. When the years passed and the time to move came closer, the plans were built around them instead. When Viserys got himself killed and Dany disappeared, plans were altered to work in Aegon instead, who was coming of age. As for the eggs? I think they were just gifted as obvious symbols of Targaryen authority with no expectations beyond that. If Viserys and Dany never came under Illyrio's influence, Aegon probably would've ended up with them as a marriage gift to Arianne or someone.

 

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7 hours ago, IceRaven said:

I never understood why Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to dany if his master plan was to support Aegon. It seems a waste of money to me, they are really expensive, the better thing to do were to get rid of Viserys in some way, marry dany to Aegon or get rid of her to and just sell the eggs for pay more mercenary, he even knew the  dothraki are scared of the salt water. Is this a plot hole? Because I can't see him doing a master plan to put mirri maz dhur in a random city, hope she will not die and hatch the dragon egg.

1: Dany and Viserys were a useful distraction to to Bob while he drank and whored away his rule. With bob focused on them (and as spymaster, Baldy McNo-dong would be acutely aware of Bob's focus,) JonCon and (f)Aegon would be safer and have a lesser chance of being discovered. The Eggs were a display. Fatty McFatterton needed the marriage to make his plan work and Drogo could have his choice to marry lots of women, but he wanted to marry the last dragon woman in the world. The eggs cemented that image. Dany was supposed to die by a poisoners wine, Viserys, for all his bluster was incapable of commanding or fighting anyone or anything so his death in a military campaign was certain. This would leave a very angry horde of screamers crossing the narrow sea with either the golden company in tow, or with them sweeping in to fight them with (f)Aegon at the head of the van. MMD, the hatching and Jorah abandoning his deal to come home were not part of the plan. 
2: Fatty has more money than anyone else alive in the books. He can buy off rulers of the free cities with what he has in his coffers. He has no need for wealth. An egg can buy a lavish lifestyle for the rest of your days. Three eggs can buy and army to take a city. Fatty bought three eggs, and an army, and bought off the rulers of cities and still lives very lavishly. He has the cash to waste 

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Personally I think the gift of the dragon eggs to Dany was intentional and with a purpose. I think Illyrio needed Dany hatch the eggs for Aegon. Dany is the only one who could hatch them because she is the only female Targaryen left. 

However, this doesnt explain why he would send her off to the Dorthraki. Why wouldnt he marry her to Aegon and wait for the eggs to hatch? Well lets predict his intentions by the consequences of his actions. By marrying her to a Khal, Danny travels east. After Drogo's death Jorah (who works for illyrio) urges her to go to Asshai. So I think Illyrio thought the eggs needed to be hatched by a female Targ and it could only happen in Asshai. 

So why not send Dany and Viserys directly to Asshai? Well probably because Viserys wouldnt agree to it so they made him think the Dorthraki wedding was the road to the throne. Another reason might be that they wanted to rid themselves of Viserys by letting him kill himself through his stupid behaviour around the dorthraki. Personally I think its a combination of both.

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When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. ASOS - Chapter 25.

Illyrio gave the petrified (stone) eggs to Dany, because he believed she was the prophesized to wake dragons from stone. Illyrio and Varys are working to help bring the prophecy to reality.

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14 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Dany refuses the Tattered Prince when asked to invade Pentos, purely out of loyalty to Ilyrio.  It shows her inexperience, both Jorah and Selmy were wary of Ilyrio.  If Tyrion ever ends up in her council, she will have a 3rd Westerosi nobleman telling her that Ilyrio is not aiding her out of virtue.

Well it's not as if Illyrio is planning Dany's downfall, he simple just wants her to marry (f)aegon and have them rule Westeros together. Jorah has betrayed her once already and Barristan served Robert and Joffrey until Cersei fired him and Tyrion has yet to do anything for Daenerys. On the surface Illyrio has done more for Daenerys than those three exiled Westerosi noblemen combined. A case could be made for Jorah but it's not as if he was aiding her out of virtue either.

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My take was that marin just decided later to add Aegon.Illyrio have money to waste just because he is no man to waste money,indeed he sell Dany to Drogo. there's no evidence him and Varys bealive in prophecies or use magick,maybe the plan was really to let Dany stay with Drogo and send Vyseris to westeros but he ruined everything deciding to go with the khalasar, but a smarter person then him should had ask himself why do all this in place of paying for mercenary instead. Maybe the answer to what it seems a plot hole is just, Viserys was dumb.

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