Defiance of Duskendale: Who else could have done it?

[LindsayLohan]

I'm surprised no one is discussing the fact that Mance failed in his attempt to infiltrate Winterfell and steal fArya.  If Theon Durden hadn't switched personalities at the last moment, the whole plot would have failed.  Even though fArya is out, Mance was (supposedly) captured, with his six spearwives flayed.

Barristan: 1

The Mance: 0

[Lord Lannister]

I don't think the question should be if anyone else could do what Barristan did. I think it should be should Barristan have done it? Things may well have turned out better if Aerys was killed and Rhaegar ascended the Throne. 

[300 H&H Magnum]

10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I don't think the question should be if anyone else could do what Barristan did. I think it should be should Barristan have done it? Things may well have turned out better if Aerys was killed and Rhaegar ascended the Throne. 

Doubtful, because Rhaegar was an idiot.  There was a lot at stake on the Trident that day and he agreed to fight Robert one on one, out of chivalry.  A leader should have better sense than that.  A man who crowns another woman at a tourney where his wife was present is not only a jackass but an idiot as well.  

Barristan swore to protect his king and that is exactly what he should do.  That is exactly what he did.  

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Doubtful, because Rhaegar was an idiot.  There was a lot at stake on the Trident that day and he agreed to fight Robert one on one, out of chivalry.  A leader should have better sense than that.  A man who crowns another woman at a tourney where his wife was present is not only a jackass but an idiot as well.  

Barristan swore to protect his king and that is exactly what he should do.  That is exactly what he did.  

I'd take a well intentioned idiot over a sadistic madman. Or even a whoremonger. As for Barristan, I can't buy into the "only following orders" argument as being what should be done. He may have been physically brave, but he's a moral coward for not only standing by as a tyrant commits atrocity after atrocity, but actively defending said tyranny. 

[StarkofWinterfell]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'd take a well intentioned idiot over a sadistic madman. Or even a whoremonger. As for Barristan, I can't buy into the "only following orders" argument as being what should be done. He may have been physically brave, but he's a moral coward for not only standing by as a tyrant commits atrocity after atrocity, but actively defending said tyranny. 

What were these "atrocities after atrocities" that Aerys committed, not including the events leading up to the rebellion such as having Rickard burn while Brandon strangles himself to try to free him.

Was he committing mass genocide or anything of the sort?

[Lee-Sensei]

10 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'd take a well intentioned idiot over a sadistic madman. Or even a whoremonger. As for Barristan, I can't buy into the "only following orders" argument as being what should be done. He may have been physically brave, but he's a moral coward for not only standing by as a tyrant commits atrocity after atrocity, but actively defending said tyranny. 

What is wrong with having sex?

[Lord Lannister]

8 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

What were these "atrocities after atrocities" that Aerys committed, not including the events leading up to the rebellion such as having Rickard burn while Brandon strangles himself to try to free him.

Was he committing mass genocide or anything of the sort?

While Barritsan was party to the events leading up to the Rebellion too, as you wish. He married Rhaella solely because he wanted to continue the family tradition of incest even those she wasn't fond of him according to Barristan. One of his reasons for naming Tywin Hand of the King was how impressed he was with the brutal way he crushed the Reynes and Tarbecks. He slept around a lot and there was his thing for Joanna Lannister, which all too likely was more than just rumor and crude remarks on his part. He locked Rhaella in a tower convinced she was cheating on him and that was the reason behind all her stillbirths. Yet had no problem sleeping around himself. Raised taxes on Oldstown and Lannisport just to piss of Tywin. Made a lot of such choices effecting the whole realm for that reason. Removed Illyn Payne's tongue for suggesting Tywin ruled the kingdom. Beheaded his son, Jaeherys' wetnurse for "letting him die." Later decided to blame his mistress for poisoning him and tortured confessions out of her and her family. All that before the Defiance and Rebellion both. So the pattern of behavior was there and just got worse.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

What is wrong with having sex?

The act itself? So long as everyone involved is consenting, nothing. When you neglect the realm and responsibilities to pursue your own carnal pleasures, only using your position to do so, there's plenty wrong with that.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

He married Rhaella solely because he wanted to continue the family tradition of incest even those she wasn't fond of him according to Barristan.

Jaehaerys forced the marriage of Rhaella and Aerys because of the GoHH's prophecy about the PtwP. Aerys and Rhaella didn't want to marry each other. 

[Lord Lannister]

19 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jaehaerys forced the marriage of Rhaella and Aerys because of the GoHH's prophecy about the PtwP. Aerys and Rhaella didn't want to marry each other. 

I thought Aerys just wanted to continue the family incest tradition and Jaehaerys used that as an excuse to justify it? Only read through TWoIaF once, so maybe I remembered it wrong.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

32 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I thought Aerys just wanted to continue the family incest tradition and Jaehaerys used that as an excuse to justify it? Only read through TWoIaF once, so maybe I remembered it wrong.

I don't remember if it was ever in the World book. I also read it only once and I have a love/hate relationship with it, tbh. The quote in question is in ADWD.

Quote

"I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."
"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"
"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince that was promised would be born of their line."
"A woods witch?"
"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."
"What became of her?"
"Summerhall." (Dany IV, ADWD)

 

[Lee-Sensei]

11 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

While Barritsan was party to the events leading up to the Rebellion too, as you wish. He married Rhaella solely because he wanted to continue the family tradition of incest even those she wasn't fond of him according to Barristan. One of his reasons for naming Tywin Hand of the King was how impressed he was with the brutal way he crushed the Reynes and Tarbecks. He slept around a lot and there was his thing for Joanna Lannister, which all too likely was more than just rumor and crude remarks on his part. He locked Rhaella in a tower convinced she was cheating on him and that was the reason behind all her stillbirths. Yet had no problem sleeping around himself. Raised taxes on Oldstown and Lannisport just to piss of Tywin. Made a lot of such choices effecting the whole realm for that reason. Removed Illyn Payne's tongue for suggesting Tywin ruled the kingdom. Beheaded his son, Jaeherys' wetnurse for "letting him die." Later decided to blame his mistress for poisoning him and tortured confessions out of her and her family. All that before the Defiance and Rebellion both. So the pattern of behavior was there and just got worse.

The act itself? So long as everyone involved is consenting, nothing. When you neglect the realm and responsibilities to pursue your own carnal pleasures, only using your position to do so, there's plenty wrong with that.

Using his position to do it? They were consenting. Robert gave the country a decade and a half of relative peace. Rhaegar destroyed it in a year.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Usimg his positiom to do it? They were consenting. Robert gave the country a decade and a half of relative peace. Rhaegar destroyed it in a year.

You're saying all those women would've been interested in him if he wasn't king? I doubt it myself. I wouldn't even say he "gave the country peace" given his indifference pretty much set up the succession crisis that immediately followed his death. As for Rhaegar, you can blame a lot of crap on him, but he didn't "destroy" said peace. At best he was the spark that lit the pyre that Aerys had been stacking and soaking in oil for years. Though Brandon's "come out and die" certainly threw it's own set of sparks too. It was inevitable that something was going to light it. The die wasn't cast until Aerys decided to burn Rickard.

[bent branch]

Chances are good Barristan had inside help. 

[Ylath's Snout]

37 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Chances are good Barristan had inside help. 

You got any evidence for that or is it speculation?

[Lee-Sensei]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

You're saying all those women would've been interested in him if he wasn't king? I doubt it myself. I wouldn't even say he "gave the country peace" given his indifference pretty much set up the succession crisis that immediately followed his death. As for Rhaegar, you can blame a lot of crap on him, but he didn't "destroy" said peace. At best he was the spark that lit the pyre that Aerys had been stacking and soaking in oil for years. Though Brandon's "come out and die" certainly threw it's own set of sparks too. It was inevitable that something was going to light it. The die wasn't cast until Aerys decided to burn Rickard.

1) He was tall, handsome, strong and one of the greatest warriors in Westeros.

2) That was Cersei.

3) Rhaegar was married to the sister of a Great Lord (Martell), but ran off with the daughter of another Great Lord (Stark). The girl he kidnapped was betrothed to a Great Lord (Baratheon) who's essentially the adopted son of another Great Lord (Arryn). That girls brother is betrothed to the daughter of another Great Lord (Tully). Meanwhile, because of his father they've permanently alienated the Greatest Lord in the realm (Lannister) and another Kingdom has a habit of Rebelling whenever there's trouble on the continent (Greyjoy). To make things worse, he left his unstable father to deal with the Fall out and entrusted the safety of his wife and kids to this lunatic.

[Roswell]

On 6/5/2018 at 3:12 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

This was probably the greatest feat in ASOIAF. Could anyone else have done it?

What the Darklyns did is not a great feat.  It was an act of madness.  Blame it on the foreign wife but Darklyn should have known better.

[bent branch]

On 6/7/2018 at 2:17 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

You got any evidence for that or is it speculation?

On this issue I have three different beliefs with three levels of speculating. GRRM said that he wouldn't do a book or series about Robert's Rebellion because all betrayals will be revealed and all questions answered. I wondered how Duskendale was going to be explained when it seemed anyone who might know anything about how that went down was dead. Then I noticed in a Brienne chapter that the maester of the Dunfort during the Rebellion was removed fairly soon after Aerys was saved. I can to three conclusions from this information.

Conclusion 1 (100% certainty):  Although it has been about twenty-five years since Duskendale, this missing maester will reappear to reveal what happened at Duskendale.

Conclusion 2 (50% certainty):  There is nothing in the story to indicate that Barristan would have any particular knowledge of Duskendale or the Dunfort. Someone, probably this missing maester, provided Barristan with maps to help him get through.

Conclusion 3 (Total speculation):  The missing maester is Haldon.

[Seams]

On 6/7/2018 at 5:39 PM, bent branch said:

Chances are good Barristan had inside help. 

 

On 6/7/2018 at 6:17 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

You got any evidence for that or is it speculation?

I have an alternative tin foil theory. Aerys set up the so-called "defiance" so he could have a year to live as a spy within his own kingdom. Alternatively, Aerys was held long enough to create and train a glamor to return to King's Landing and rule in his place. (I think Barristan says that Aerys was never the same after Duskendale.) So the heroic one-man rescue by Ser Barristan may have been a set-up along with the hostage-taking itself.

The Darklyns were super loyal vassals of the Targaryen kings - seven members of the House served as members of the kings guard, more than any other House. If they were asked by the king himself, they might have undertaken this task of hiding the king and providing a cover story out of loyalty to the Iron Throne. The innkeeper at the Seven Swords and possibly Nimble Dick are the best we can do to get a reading on current Darklyn sentiment, and we get hints that the Darklyns would hate the kingslayer (Jaime) and that the local people are still "dragon men." So I think the Darklyns remain loyal, even after being put to death, if that's possible. (Ser Dontos is a fan of Renly but the Ghost of Renly, represented by Garlan Tyrell, is a Targaryen man, in my opinion - it's complicated. If Mollander in the AFfC prologue is the son of Dontos, as one persuasive theory posits, he proposes a toast to Daenerys as the rightful queen, perhaps providing further evidence of Darklyn / Hollard loyalty to the Targaryens.)

It does seem like a suicide mission to pretend to kidnap and hold the monarch hostage. I admit that could scuttle this whole line of speculation. If the initial request came from the king and assurances were made that no one would be punished, the Darklyns might have agreed to the scheme under those conditions. When the king was swapped with someone else or when he simply wanted to kill everyone who knew the real story behind the defiance, the Darklyns paid with their lives. (Sort of like Ser Dontos dying after Littlefinger was finished with him.) But the Darklyn loyalty to the throne might mean that they undertook the mission even though they knew it would lead to their deaths.

Symbolically (you knew this was coming, didn't you?), the outcome of the Defiance is like the pyre on which Dany's dragons are hatched: a mysterious foreign woman is burned (Serala of Myr, wife of Lord Denys) and a "king" dies (the reader is reminded several times that the Darklyns were ancient kings before the conquest). The hatching dragon would appear to be Aerys in a symbolic rebirth. (Although you could make a case for Ser Dontos.) I suspect this particular rebirth might connect to the "monarch" butterfly symbolism of going into a cocoon as a worm, remaining dormant and then emerging as a butterfly. Ser Jorah was the knight standing by for Dany at Drogo's pyre; Ser Barristan played a more active role at the "pyre" where Aerys was reborn.

I would also compare the rescue of Aerys to the theft of the dragon egg in the Dunk & Egg story The Mystery Knight. Ser Barristan and Ser Jorah undertake a similar mission together through the sewers of Meereen. Oh - there you go - a suicide mission and a sewer side mission. That could be our clue to compare these incidents. Dany walking into the funeral pyre was also suicidal -- except the fire didn't kill her, for some reason.