U.S. Politics: If Trump Is In Attendance, The Next Protest Should Be A Roman Salute

[A Horse Named Stranger]

47 minutes ago, Frog Eater said:

Can you all please take your self congratulatory discussion of infanticide to another thread? Thanks! 

Hum, wasn't there a Christian or bible thread, or were there no infants among Egypt's first borns, or in the city of Sodom or Gomorrah?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, IamMe90 said:

Dude, you're making his point for him, lol. He's using the exact logic you just used to support why we should not ban abortions even if they were a crime, and using reductio ad absurdum to show why it is bad logic. You just continued to demonstrate the badness of your logic by coming up with even more obscene scenarios that your logic would lead to if adopted. 

 

No, I used a facetious example to highlight why it’s silly to compare apples to oranges.

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You disagree fundamentally with the assertion that abortion is a crime or that it is unethical, and so you don't think there is a purpose to a ban on them, and this is compounded further by the fact that a ban will have adverse affects on people that need abortions. That's fine. But if someone thinks that abortion is, in fact, the killing of infants, then they absolutely have an ethical argument for banning the practice. That is just completely obvious on its face, since killing infants is obviously morally wrong. 

That would be true if that opinion was valid. I don’t believe it is, and I think the logic behind it is unfounded. A baby is something you can hold in your hand. I’ll just cite George Carlin’s line that perfectly captures the point, “If a couple has two children and the wife is pregnant, do you say you have three children or two and one on the way.” Now, if you want to be more nuanced and say something like it’s preventing a life from occurring, that’s another issue, and yes, then we can get into the ethics of it. But when your commentary is “YOU F****** BABY KILLER!!!” which is something I’ve had yelled at me before, the conversation is over and that person is laughably wrong.

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People who advocate for drug legalization make the same error in logic (and to be clear, I am radically pro legalization, moreso probably than most people making this error). They say that because the war on drugs is ineffective, it should be stopped. But that's just a deflection for the real core issue, which is that drug use own its own is not inherently unethical. Some people really think that using drugs is morally wrong, and you will never convince them that we should altogether stop trying to suppress their usage because attempts to do so are ineffective. The only way you will win that war is to gradually shift the paradigm/cultural view on the morality of drug use. The same goes for abortion.  

That’s fair. Again, I was not taking it as a serious argument, and in previous posts I argued why abortions can be moral, albeit very sad, decisions.

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Scoring hot take right there. 

Sith Lord Jace is only capable of communicating in absolutist scorching hot take. It is known.

55 minutes ago, Frog Eater said:

Can you all please take your self congratulatory discussion of infanticide to another thread? Thanks! 

The debate over the legality and morality of abortions is right at the center of American politics. The conversation is right where it belongs.

[Week]

Anyways, on a lighter note:

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/dem-candidate-airs-same-sex-kiss-ad-during-fox-and-friends.html

Very silly -- I don't love the "take that Trump" line, but I think the ad is pretty great for what it is.

[IamMe90]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

No, I used a facetious example to highlight why it’s silly to compare apples to oranges.

That would be true if that opinion was valid. I don’t believe it is, and I think the logic behind it is unfounded. A baby is something you can hold in your hand. I’ll just cite George Carlin’s line that perfectly captures the point, “If a couple has two children and the wife is pregnant, do you say you have three children or two and one on the way.” Now, if you want to be more nuanced and say something like it’s preventing a life from occurring, that’s another issue, and yes, then we can get into the ethics of it. But when your commentary is “YOU F****** BABY KILLER!!!” which is something I’ve had yelled at me before, the conversation is over and that person is laughably wrong.

That’s fair. Again, I was not taking it as a serious argument, and in previous posts I argued why abortions can be moral, albeit very sad, decisions.

Sith Lord Jace is only capable of communicating in absolutist scorching hot take. It is known.

The debate over the legality and morality of abortions is right at the center of American politics. The conversation is right where it belongs.

I think we're kind of talking past each other here. You and I are on the same side of the abortion debate. This all came up because you were arguing with Ant that ethical motivations don't/can't exist behind anti-abortion legislation or adherents of the anti-abortion stance, and that just isn't true; you just fundamentally disagree with them and think they're wrong. And that's fair, and I agree with you, but it's misrepresenting the lay of the land to suggest that there's no ethical argument taking place. One side is just on the wrong side of that argument. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

The debate over the legality and morality of abortions is right at the center of American politics. The conversation is right where it belongs.

But, like I said, 11 times out of 10 it ends in shouting.

And you can be flip either direction, but both poles are absurd (on the one hand you have "Every Sperm is Sacred"; on the other hand you have Peter Singer).  Look, if there is conflict in rights, I personally ethically err on the side of the life in being rather than the life inchoate.  But there is a debate to be had between Monty Python and absurd utilitarians on some level.  I trust pregnant women to make good, ethical decisions for themselves and their families at the same rate that others make those decisions. The problem is that we as a country cannot confront the meat of the ethical debate, nor can we logically and consistently tie that debate to other important and related issues like childhood poverty, healthcare, childcare, etc.  We end up with people calling pro-choice advocates babykillers and (some) pro choice advocates calling fetuses parasites (I work with words for a living - being provocative like that isn't cute or effective) and forget about all the other (more) important stuff. Thus, shouting.

[Kalbear]

Can we please take the abortion stuff to another thread? 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Can we please take the abortion stuff to another thread? 

I am actually with Tywin here - it is, in fact, sadly currently at the center of US politics and animates a huge swath of single issue voters.  BUT to the extent that we aren't trying to discuss this in the context of how it impacts public policy, including judicial nominations and other issues (e.g., health care, individual rights (I mean we're going to get another Little Sisters/Hobby Lobby case sooner rather than later), welfare, childcare) etc., I agree.  The actual morality probably belongs elsewhere.  

[Chaircat Meow]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

No, I used a facetious example to highlight why it’s silly to compare apples to oranges.

 

So how does this facetious example work exactly? 

Apologies for trying to prolong the misery here, but I'm just really curious about this. I feel if Tywin doesn't get to try to explain it would be like missing the final scene of a quite enjoyable disaster movie (one where all the characters die). 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, IamMe90 said:

I think we're kind of talking past each other here. You and I are on the same side of the abortion debate. This all came up because you were arguing with Ant that ethical motivations don't/can't exist behind anti-abortion legislation or adherents of the anti-abortion stance, and that just isn't true; you just fundamentally disagree with them and think they're wrong. And that's fair, and I agree with you, but it's misrepresenting the lay of the land to suggest that there's no ethical argument taking place. One side is just on the wrong side of that argument. 

I don't think we're talking past one another, I think at least one of us just made a mistake. Either I failed to communicate my point and/or I said something that contradicted a previous comment and/or you may have missed something with no malice intended. I don't think ethical motivations don't or can't be a part of the equation, I just think they're secondary in the majority of cases. And honestly, as someone who has phone banked and canvased literally thousands upon thousands of households, what I've found is that the people who solely make an ethical or moral argument for why they oppose abortions have not been the people who stridently want to enact that viewpoint through legislation. Some did of course, but it wasn't as obvious. From my experience, the people who have strongly wanted to make abortions illegal have typically been quick to cite their religious views, and I think in that context it would be unconstitutional to put your religious views into legislation. 

By the way, have you forgiven yourself yet for the horrific mistake you said yesterday?

[IamMe90]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

By the way, have you forgiven yourself yet for the horrific mistake you said yesterday?

I have, because: 1) I know who Bill Russell is, I just rarely think of him because he's from such a bygone era of the NBA, and 2) I'm new to the NBA and thus I feel it appropriate to cut myself some slack. 

BTW, can't wait for fantasy (football) season... I won my first league last year, and I'm ready to open that can o' whoopass on y'all too  

[Martell Spy]

Trump dangled administration job to Judge Jeanine

The president has discussed top jobs in front of the Fox News host, a longtime New York pal, who has expressed interest in leaving her cable-news perch for government.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/07/jeanine-pirro-trump-white-house-630378

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A former prosecutor and judge, Pirro has repeatedly told Trump’s aides and advisers over the past 18 months that she’s interested in taking over as the nation’s top law enforcement official, according to four people familiar with the conversations.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

But, like I said, 11 times out of 10 it ends in shouting.

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO BE OBJECTIVE AND CALM, ZABZ?!?!?!?

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And you can be flip either direction, but both poles are absurd (on the one hand you have "Every Sperm is Sacred"; on the other hand you have Peter Singer).  Look, if there is conflict in rights, I personally ethically err on the side of the life in being rather than the life inchoate.  But there is a debate to be had between Monty Python and absurd utilitarians on some level.  I trust pregnant women to make good, ethical decisions for themselves and their families at the same rate that others make those decisions. The problem is that we as a country cannot confront the meat of the ethical debate, nor can we logically and consistently tie that debate to other important and related issues like childhood poverty, healthcare, childcare, etc.  We end up with people calling pro-choice advocates babykillers and (some) pro choice advocates calling fetuses parasites (I work with words for a living - being provocative like that isn't cute or effective) and forget about all the other (more) important stuff. Thus, shouting.

The bolded section hits the nail on the head and I tried to address it before, but it would seem that I failed. Part of the reason why I've argued that there is an ethical and moral argument for abortions is precisely because you have to factor in everything that interacts with the decision. Not that you would ever need it explained to you, but the example I've always heard that's moving is what should a single mother due if she's already struggling to support her kids and she learns that she's pregnant again? One the one hand, she loves her children and she might want to have another. OTOH, having the child could be detrimental to her other child who are already here. Ultimately the decision is hers and hers alone, but you can absolutely argue that she's doing what's best for her children by deciding not to have another child. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

I have, because: 1) I know who Bill Russell is, I just rarely think of him because he's from such a bygone era of the NBA, and 2) I'm new to the NBA and thus I feel it appropriate to cut myself some slack. 

BTW, can't wait for fantasy (football) season... I won my first league last year, and I'm ready to open that can o' whoopass on y'all too  

Be warned, the Jace will be flooding your inbox with horrible trade deals.

You've been warned!

[williamjm]

10 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, now liberal sorts of people, it's time we faced up to the immigration problem.

Yes we have an immigration problem. But, it isn't a problem that concerns a group of people.

It's an immigration problem that concerns one guy.

That's right. Just one guy.

Which is conservative idiot and all around knucklehead Niall Ferguson.

 

Now it seems to me that the US has comparative advantage in producing conservative knuckleheads. That means we should be exporting conservative knuckleheads. Not importing them.

Now UK we love ya. But, would you mind if we shipped this conservative knucklehead back? Like overnight express maybe?

On behalf of the UK, I'm willing to offer a deal where we take Ferguson back as long as you take Piers Morgan.

[Chaircat Meow]

1 minute ago, williamjm said:

On behalf of the UK, I'm willing to offer a deal where we take Ferguson back as long as you take Piers Morgan.

They have to take an American back I think. Piers is English. 

I think we should offer them Boris. 

[williamjm]

Just now, Chaircat Meow said:

They have to take an American back I think. Piers is English. 

I think we should offer them Boris. 

I think that would also be a good swap.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Week said:

Anyways, on a lighter note:

https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/dem-candidate-airs-same-sex-kiss-ad-during-fox-and-friends.html

Very silly -- I don't love the "take that Trump" line, but I think the ad is pretty great for what it is.

More comedy:

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(CNN)President Donald Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani shared his thoughts Wednesday during a speaking engagement about first lady Melania Trump and the allegations her husband had an affair with porn star Stormy Daniels.

"She believes her husband," Giuliani said at the "Globes" Capital Market conference in Tel Aviv. "And she knows it's untrue."

 

Thursday afternoon, the first lady's communications director fired back at Giuliani.

 

"I don't believe Mrs. Trump has ever discussed her thoughts on anything with Mr. Giuliani," East Wing communications director Stephanie Grisham told CNN in a statement.

Read between the lines.....

Also, you got to love how Giuliani says adult film stars lack credibility while not realizing that Trump has appeared in a few. Thank god he kept his suits on (I think). 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, williamjm said:

I think that would also be a good swap.

No, you have to take Alex Jones back in that deal. This is nonnegotiable. Remember, our Dear Leader makes the best deals. He's going to be reassured of that tomorrow. Not.

[williamjm]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, you have to take Alex Jones back in that deal. This is nonnegotiable.

I think we'll have to call the deal off if that's the condition you're going to insist on.

[Martell Spy]

 

Scott Pruitt Made Public Servants Fetch His Protein Bars And Greek Yogurt

thedailybeast.com/scott-pruitt-made-public-servants-fetch-his-protein-bars-and-greek-yogurt?ref=home

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According to four sources familiar with the work environment at the Environmental Protection Agency, its scandal-plagued EPA administrator has regularly sent his subordinates out during the workday to pick up his favorite snacks and treats.