The three-eyed crow is future Bran

[Dohor]

First of all: Yes, I know how crazy this sounds, and yes, I also know that introducing time travel always can very easily lead into weak deus ex machina writing, but I'm not talking about that kind of time travel here. My theory is, that Bran (and all greenseers in general) have an ability to "travel back and forth in time" inside their own bodies, similar to what they can do inside weirwoods. But of course, I have to explain where this theory comes from, and it started when I noticed how GRRM is pretty obviously dancing around the idea of Bloodraven not actually being the three-eyed crow.

Leaf doesn't seem to have any idea about such creature existing:

The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera.

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. (ADWD, Bran II)

 

And of course, there is Bloodraven's infamous answer to the question about whether he's the three-eyed crow.

 

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." (ADWD, Bran II)

 

This answer also tells us that BR was in Bran's coma dream, but as a tree instead of a crow.

 

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly. (AGOT, Bran III) 

 

The weirwood and the crow are the only things in the dream that can actually see Bran, and since Bloodraven only mentions watching Bran's fall, he's more likely to be the weirwood. But why is the crow future Bran then? 

 

First of all, it's a known fact that Bran has a metaphorical "third eye", him being a greenseer. Also, these two quotes seem to connect Bran with birds.

 

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said. (AGOT, Jon II)

 

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. (AGOT, Bran III)

 

Then there's the fact that none of the three-eyed crow's lines...

 

Not cry. Fly. (AGOT, Bran III)

 

That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be. I'm doing it. (AGOT, Bran III)

 

...have any quotation marks in them! It's almost as if Bran is just thinking these things to himself. There's also the puzzling detail of Bran not noticing the crow's third eye until this moment:

 

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. (AGOT, Bran III)

 

I can't think of any way how this detail could make sense (regardless of the crow's identity), but the best I can come up with is that future Bran's "dream avatar's" appearance changes according to how Bran sees himself during that time, and AGOT era Bran only starts to see his third eye after having the Heart of Winter vision, and thus becoming a greenseer (don't know why he'd see himself as a crow though, maybe something to do with the actual crows at the top of the broken tower?). 

 

Btw, if my theory is correct, Bloodraven won't be good news for Bran, given the similarity between these two places:

 

There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. (AGOT Bran III)

 

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. (ADWD Bran II)

 

The connection between these two description hints at two things: 1. Bloodraven is constantly killing animals possessed by skinchangers (notice the use of similar words between next and previous quotes).

 

Supposedly the greenseers also had power over the beasts of the wood and the birds in the trees. (ACOK Bran IV)

 

This doesn't necessarily indicate any danger towards Bran, since the animals are probably just ones whose skinchangers are already physically dead and only live inside their animals (perhaps to get more lifeforce, who knows?), but the second thing gives the coma dream a whole new sinister quality. Future Bran/Three-eyed crow is trying to get his past self to fly, so he doesn't fall into some place full of bones. Could this mean that the dream is a warning to not go to Bloodraven's lair?

 

Bran knew. "She's a child. A child of the forest." He shivered, as much from wonderment as cold. They had fallen into one of Old Nan's tales. (ADWD Bran II)

 

The quote above indicates so, and it probably also tells it's too late now. Perhaps once TWOW is out, there'll be a chapter where Bran discovers Bloodraven's true intentions, and desperately tries to warn his past self to not come north, only to understand that he caused the whole thing. Perhaps he'll try to burst his own third eye in desperation (crow pecking Bran's foreskin, not to open but to destroy the eye, or perhaps to even kill the boy (hehe) to prevent his role in Bloodraven's plan). Perhaps the thing in the Heart of Winter is Bloodraven's plan and Bran's role in it fulfilled, and Bran "must live" to not go north and so prevent this from happening. 

 

In AGOT Bran VII, both Bran and Rickon have a same dream about Ned dying.

 

The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad." (AGOT Bran VII)

 

"Shaggy," a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father's tomb. With one final snap at Summer's face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon's side. "You let my father be," Rickon warned Luwin. "You let him be."

"Rickon," Bran said softly. "Father's not here."

"Yes he is. I saw him." Tears glistened on Rickon's face. "I saw him last night." (AGOT Bran VII)

 

However, only Bran dreams of the crow, which indicates the crow could not come to Rickon. Which leads us back to my original theory; Bran can only travel within his own mind, on in others. 

 

Out of all the evidence I've seen, this one finally convinced me about this.

 

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said. (ADWD Bran I)

 

Coldhands is literally in the presence of a post-Bloodraven greenseer, so it doesn't really make sense to call Bloodraven the last one. Unless Bran will be the last greenseer, and Coldhands is actually talking about him. The question is how the hell does Coldhands know this, but given the constant ice-fire symmetry in the series, and seeing that the fire side already has their own weird prophecy-spouting undead guy (Patchface), I don't think it's too far-fetched to see Coldhands as someone similar. His sanity just has remained, since ice preserves. 

 

By the way, Bran saying "A Monster" can be taken two ways. The obvious interpretation is that he's calling Coldhands monster, but there might be a double meaning. Monster could be seen as an addition to Coldhands' list of things the three-eyed crow is, which, especially accompanied by Coldhands' answer makes Bran's future seem kinda... hopeless?

 

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark." (ADWD Bran II)

 

Now that I've managed to make myself want TWOW a little less, let's talk about two questions that all of you are probably thinking right now, two questions that both relate to Jojen Reed.

 

1. How does all this tie into the Winged Wolf dream?

 

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"Did the crow have three eyes?" (ACOK Bran IV) 

 

The characters interpret this as Bloodraven (the crow) trying to open Bran's (winged wolf) third eye, or make him walk again, or some stuff like that. But tell me one prophetic vision from this book series that came true the way the characters thought it would, because I can't think of any. I think Jojen's interpretation is wrong. According to my memory, there has never been any wolf-related symbolism surrounding Bran (other than Summer and the fact that he's a Stark, but that applies to other kids too). And the wings representing greenseer powers seems kind of odd, since they are usually represented as a third eye. Who is the winged wolf then? Well, other than birds, what creatures have wings? Dragons! And dragon + wolf=winged wolf. This means that Winged Wolf is Jon, who has wolf mom and dragon dad. The green dream probably hints at something that'll happen in the early parts of TWOW, when Jon is living his post-stabbing second live inside Ghost. Jon and Bran might communicate during that time, and the dream will come true by crow-Bran trying to convince winged wolf-Jon to break the stone chains of his reluctance to warging and embrace his nature. According to the dream, Jon won't be convinced (thank god, at least he'll stay out of this). 

 

Just as a sidenote, I don't think this dream was sent by future Bran or anything, it's just ordinary green dream.

 

The second question question is the only direct evidence against this theory: If all this is correct, then how was the three-eyed crow in Jojen's dreams?

 

 "When I was little I almost died of greywater fever. That was when the crow came to me." (ACOK Bran IV)

 

I'll fill this plothole with Jojenpaste. If Bran really ate Jojen's blood in that cave (his currently last POV chapter), perhaps it gives him some kind of access to Jojen's dreams also. Maybe he'll go there accidentally, maybe Bloodraven instructs him to go there so Jojen will get green dreams and help the current situation to form. Perhaps Bloodraven even makes Bran to send Jojen the visions about his death and tell Jojen it will only awake Bran's powers. 

 

It's pretty ambiguous right now, but currently I totally believe in this. Please tell if you agree, or if you disagree, tell why is that :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dohor]

I fucked up the book quotes, sorry about that. How does the quoting work here?

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

The formatting is wacky, good luck...

I have long believed Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow, and while I’ve considered and run with the time traveling Bran idea... but I’m partial to Old Nan as the Three eyed Crow right now, 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150877-the-three-eyed-crow-is-old-nan-not-bloodraven/

and here here is the old one which seemed more like what you’re saying:

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Dohor said:

snip

 

 

 

 

 

In the future, Bran will be the three eyed crow, but as of now, bloodraven is 

[Megorova]

Three-eyed crow is shadowbinder Quaithe, and she's also Bloodraven's ex-lover and half-sister Shiera Seastar. It is known

[Dohor]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

In the future, Bran will be the three eyed crow, but as of now, bloodraven is 

Nothing in the books has indicated that "three-eyed crow" is a title of any sort. In fact, Bloodraven and CotF don't even know what it means, which originally led me to believe that Bloodraven isn't 3EC.

 

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Three-eyed crow is shadowbinder Quaithe, and she's also Bloodraven's ex-lover and half-sister Shiera Seastar. It is known

But isn't she the moon in Jon's dream in ADWD Jon I?

[Dohor]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The formatting is wacky, good luck...

I have long believed Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow, and while I’ve considered and run with the time traveling Bran idea... but I’m partial to Old Nan as the Three eyed Crow right now, 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150877-the-three-eyed-crow-is-old-nan-not-bloodraven/

and here here is the old one which seemed more like what you’re saying:

 

I checked both threads, and yeah, our 3EC-is-Bran-theories had pretty much in common, basically only differences were my expansions to Coldhands, Jon and Jojen.

About 3EC being Old Nan, even though you have found a wonderful amount of evidence for this theory, I don't really like the idea of Old Nan having any kind of secret identity. She is really important part of the Stark children's innocent childhood in Winterfell, memories of which I'd like to stay sacred and pure (I'm taking this fictional series kinda seriously :D). On more rational level, how could she even enter dreams; her mother was lyseni which makes her unlikely to be a greenseer, and Bran probably would have noticed Old Nan having a glass candle (which Quaithe presumably is using).

[SirArthur]

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Three-eyed crow is shadowbinder Quaithe, and she's also Bloodraven's ex-lover and half-sister Shiera Seastar. It is known

Quaithe is Bran's monster ? wtf ?

[SirArthur]

I don't know if it is worth a thought, but Bran's monster and the way the crow helps Bran in his dreams may suggest the crow is someone closer, much closer: summer.

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know if it is worth a thought, but Bran's monster and the way the crow helps Bran in his dreams may suggest the crow is someone closer, much closer: summer.

But then that means that the semi-magical direwolves, unlike the fully-magical dragons, are full-fledged sentient, intelligent beings. The magic of the relationship between the Stark kids and their wolves lies equally within both Stark and direwolf not solely within the Starks.

Which would be weird: GRRM has stated that he intentionally chose not to make the dragons fully sentient, intelligent beings capable of communication.

Why limit the magic of the dragons but amp up the magic of direwolves? Especially if the dragons are supposed to be a foil and the fire-based counterpart of the Others. Dragons are (almost) completely mythological but direwolves have simply gone extinct.

[SirArthur]

22 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Which would be weird: GRRM has stated that he intentionally chose not to make the dragons fully sentient, intelligent beings capable of communication.

I have not thought about the consequences, sometimes I just take the words, GRRM puts in the mouth of his characters, literally. I have also no clue why Devan Seaworth from my signature should be AA, it is just my very literal interpretation of the events. Whom he represents ... I don't know.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Dohor said:

I checked both threads, and yeah, our 3EC-is-Bran-theories had pretty much in common, basically only differences were my expansions to Coldhands, Jon and Jojen.

Cheers!

I tend to think Jojen misinterprets most of what he sees. Cold hands is super suspicious (wandering in circles and feeding children man flesh) and Jon I believe is the Silent Wolf Headed King at the Feast of the Dead Dany saw in the House of the Undying.

1 hour ago, Dohor said:

About 3EC being Old Nan, even though you have found a wonderful amount of evidence for this theory, I don't really like the idea of Old Nan having any kind of secret identity.

I hear you, and I understand, but the more I mull it over the more it makes sense to me...

1 hour ago, Dohor said:

She is really important part of the Stark children's innocent childhood in Winterfell, memories of which I'd like to stay sacred and pure (I'm taking this fictional series kinda seriously :D). On more rational level, how could she even enter dreams; her mother was lyseni which makes her unlikely to be a greenseer, and Bran probably would have noticed Old Nan having a glass candle (which Quaithe presumably is using).

It’s sort of a tangent, but I’m not at all convinced that greenseers and valyrians are all that different, sure the colors are a little bit, but the powers and the nature of “king’s blood” seems to be pretty consistent... so is there a difference between green dreams and Targaryens dreaming of things to come? I’m not sure...

And Bran clearly doesn’t need a candle to appear in Jon’s dream.

I find the parallels between the House of the Undying and Bloodraven’s Lair are too striking to ignore, and once one accepts that the Inky Blue Trees of the Undying are really just Weirwoods of a different color in Essos (where the children of the Forrest are now servitors) ... then it’s not a giant leap to imagining them growing in Valyria, and that the blood of the dragon isn’t so different from greenseer blood in what makes it magic. Just a different color.

[chrisdaw]

I do agree with the OP. And it means on the face of things that future Bran lead Jojen to his death.

And in addition to the OP I believe every historic instance of Brandon the Builder building or helping build something is really our Bran impacting on the past. For example Bran is going to weirnet back in time to when Storm's End was being considered, and somehow have an impact on those responsible in a way that results in Storm's End being built the way it was.

[BlackLightning]

I'm with LiveFirstDieLater.

Frankly, I don't see a single difference between the Targaryen dragon dreams and Bran and Jojen's green dreams. I remember reading some things about northern Essos about the Kingdom of the Ifequevron. The region is not only right next to the Dothraki Sea but it's not far at all from Vaes Dothrak. A lot like Lhazar.

Except, unlike Lhazar, the Dothraki have never gone to Ifequevron to pillage or warmonger or rape or enslave. Why? Because the Dothraki are an extremely spiritual/superstitious people and they fear/respect the wood walkers of Ifequevron and their powers. The Dothraki are even very familiar with an area in Ifequevron where carved trees are everywhere and the meadows seem haunted. So familiar that they have given the place a name: Vaes Liesi.

That all but tells me that the Ifequevron might be the home to Essos' Children of the Forest or maybe even a race of half-humans, half-CotF. If the wood walkers have the kind of powers I think they have, then skinchanging and greensight and God-knows-what-else might not be an exclusive Westerosi phenomenon. 

If that's the case, then:

• The Others become that much more of an global existential threat than just a Westerosi existential threat
• The magic of the Valyrian blood, Rhoynish blood and the blood of the First Men are not that different at all. They are all human and the magic lies within certain genotypes of humans. The only difference is the way the magic manifests and the culture of the people who use the magic.
• Dany's return to the Dothraki and Vaes Dothrak suddenly becomes much, much bigger than just a recruitment drive and a way of turning Dany into "dragons plant no trees" warrior goddess. It's an absolute necessity.
• Dany - who, in the books, doesn't really care about Westeros or the Iron Throne - will leave for Westeros sooner than later with a very different sense of urgency and very different priorities. Which in turn will give a unique color to her inevitable conflicts with Aegon, Euron, Cersei and - dare I say - Tyrion.

[BlackLightning]

14 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I do agree with the OP. And it means on the face of things that future Bran lead Jojen to his death.

And in addition to the OP I believe every historic instance of Brandon the Builder building or helping build something is really our Bran impacting on the past. For example Bran is going to weirnet back in time to when Storm's End was being considered, and somehow have an impact on those responsible in a way that results in Storm's End being built the way it was.

I disagree. Bran going back into the time to passively watch events unfold is one thing. Bran going back into time and directly impacting it is a completely different thing. Especially considering that Brandon the Builder was an actual person who had children and grandchildren and vassals and allies. What? Is Bran going go back in time, bust a couple of nuts on Brandon the Builder's behalf and father the next generation of Starks?

How is Brandon the Builder even able to find the time much less the resources, manpower and magical power to:

• build Winterfell
• rule Winterfell (at least for a little while)
• build the Wall
• establish/finance/support the Night's Watch
• build Highgarden for Garth the Greenhand
• build the Hightower for the Hightower family
• help Durran Godsgrief build Storm's End (even though the region is under attack by two angry gods who control the wind and the water)
• marry a wellborn woman
• have children, etc.

Not to mention that they're in our equivalent of the Neolithic Bronze Age and Storm's End is over 1000 miles from Winterfell; the Hightower and Highgarden are probably closer to 2000 miles away.

If the Children of the Forest, the original greenseers and skinchangers, had that kind of range and power, how on Earth could they lose so much ground against the First Men? And how would Brandon the Builder attain or discover that kind of power? Who would teach him? And if our Bran Stark is the one who did it all, how can he engineer all of that psychically when his body is over 8000 years into the future.

I don't know. It's not a good idea.

And if I have learned anything in all the years I have read or watched or played fiction, I have learned that using time travel and time-bending s a major storytelling device (or worse, as a mean to tie up loose ends) is a very difficult thing to do. And it almost always fails. A lot of stories tend to jump the shark when that happens.

That's why you don't have stories about superheroes, epic heroes of the ancient world or wizards who have the ability to freely control time. If you do, you are guaranteed to have something preventing them from actually using their powers at the level they are capable of. So their powers are just a one-time novelty.

That Hiro Nakamura character from that NBC show "Heroes" is the rare case of where it can work without destroying any sense of integrity your story has. And even they botched it in the end.

GRRM, with his sci-fi background, would know this.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Dohor said:

But isn't she the moon in Jon's dream in ADWD Jon I?

Yes, she is. That too. According to Dothraki legends the Sun is the husband, and the Moon is his wife. Which fits with roles of Bloodraven and Shiera.

" “Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden"

In that dream the moon/Shiera was chasing after Ghost/Jon, and he run from her to sun's/Bloodraven's cave. If he wanted to hide from her in that cave, probably it means, that she can't go there (even in spiritual/dream world), because the cave is magically protected.

Also that cave in Jon's dream was referred to as "the cave of night". During First Long Night the sun was hidden for entire generation, before First Men joined forces with the Children, and defeated the Others. In Yi Ti's legends Long Night was sort of caused by the Lion of Night and his wife the Maiden-Made-of-Light. This Maiden is a parallel to Moon-wife from Dothraki legends, and the Lion is her husband, the sun. Though he's the sun hidden in the cave of night, the sun that has left the world of people, like Bloodraven. Also the Sun is the ruling planet of Leo's sign in astrology.

If my theory about this correct, then the power of the Children and the Others is the same source - Weirwood and Old Gods, and Bloodraven is partially the reason, why will happen Second Long Night.

[chrisdaw]

14 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I disagree. Bran going back into the time to passively watch events unfold is one thing. Bran going back into time and directly impacting it is a completely different thing. Especially considering that Brandon the Builder was an actual person who had children and grandchildren and vassals and allies. What? Is Bran going go back in time, bust a couple of nuts on Brandon the Builder's behalf and father the next generation of Starks?

Bran the Builder is a legendary figure with no concrete details. Bran will not exist in these historic times as a living version of himself, he will impact things, perhaps accidentally, the same way the 3 eyed crow has impacted things to bring Bran to the cave. He will skin change animals, maybe even people, appear in dreams, in visions, fuck with nature, etc

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

Bran the Builder is a legendary figure with no concrete details. Bran will not exist in these historic times as a living version of himself, he will impact things, perhaps accidentally, the same way the 3 eyed crow has impacted things to bring Bran to the cave. He will skin change animals, maybe even people, appear in dreams, in visions, fuck with nature, etc

When will he do this? When Stannis and the Boltons are fighting tooth-and-nail in the snow to determine the immediate future of the North? When the Others and their zombie underlings are besieging Winterfell? When Littlefinger (and maybe Tyrion) are slithering about in Winterfell, leaving Sansa and whoever else alone with her back against the Wall?

Why would he even want to do this? Brandon the Builder is about as legendary as Durran Godsgrief, Lann the Clever and Garth Greenhand. And all three of them are the direct ancestors of Houses Durrandon/Baratheon, Lannister, Gardener, Hightower, Redwyne, Crane, Tarly, Fossoway, Florent, Peake and their castle seats. Dollars to donuts, Brandon the Builder probably was a "real" person.

How does that even benefit all of Westeros which must find a way to survive both the Second Long Night and the Second Dance of the Dragons?

[chrisdaw]

22 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

When will he do this? When Stannis and the Boltons are fighting tooth-and-nail in the snow to determine the immediate future of the North? When the Others and their zombie underlings are besieging Winterfell? When Littlefinger (and maybe Tyrion) are slithering about in Winterfell, leaving Sansa and whoever else alone with her back against the Wall?

Why would he even want to do this? Brandon the Builder is about as legendary as Durran Godsgrief, Lann the Clever and Garth Greenhand. And all three of them are the direct ancestors of Houses Durrandon/Baratheon, Lannister, Gardener, Hightower, Redwyne, Crane, Tarly, Fossoway, Florent, Peake and their castle seats. Dollars to donuts, Brandon the Builder probably was a "real" person.

How does that even benefit all of Westeros which must find a way to survive both the Second Long Night and the Second Dance of the Dragons?

I really have no interest in convincing you a westeros history lesson is coming through the weirnet and Bran's eyes. The elements for it are plain, you either see it coming or you don't.

And to quote GRRM.

Quote

No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.