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The wealthiest family by region before AGOT


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I think House Arryn of Gulltown was mentioned as among the richest, if not the richest of all families in the Vale.

House Redwyne may also be quite rich, but supposedly not before Hightower and Tyrell.

The Freys are also considered wealthy. Don´t know if they are richer than the Tullys.

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2 hours ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Who is the wealthiest family in the North: Manderly or Stark?

Who the second wealthiest family after Lannisters in the West?

Who is the wealthiest family in the Reach: Hightower or Tyrells?

Other regions?

Being the Overlord doesn't mean you are the richest.

North Manderlies

RL: Could be Freys,Mootons or Cox; Freys are rich and very powerful but Mootons and Cox both own busy port towns and Cox also have salt, which was expensive. Actually these two should almost certainly be richer than Freys due to volume of traffic being even larger than the crossings. Fun fact, salary comes from salt.

Vale: Grafton or Royce. Former own's a city while the latter has holdings throughout the vale.

Westerlands: Lannisters, but it could be the Lannisport ones if they own the city.

II: Harlaw; not only rich in minerals but also breeds the ponies of II.

Reach: Hightower whose lands so extensive they could be LPs by themselves but Redwynes are also very rich. Hightowers are as rich as Lannisters, perhaps even more so, according to Tarly.

Dorne: Yronwoods; Extrnsive lands rich in minerals, has fertile lands and forests.

CL: Possibly Rykkers. Would be Baratheons if Robert cared about his city.

Stormlands: My bet would be Whiteheads who own the only nota le port town but Swanns are also a possible candidate.

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The Hightowers are definitely richer than the Tyrells. Not anything against the Tyrells (they are certainly rich) but I don't think there's any competition in that regard. They definitely don't even come in second or third. Not only are there the Redwynes to consider but there are also the Ashfords, the Cuys and the Footlys who control the almost-cities of Ashford, Cuy and Tumbleton. Especially Cuy since it's coastal and far enough away from Oldtown for it to get its own traffic and revenue.

The Martells would easily be the richest family in Dorne by far if Sunspear were an actual city (i.e. had more people living there). Then again, we don't know all that much about the Dornish - I expect Winds and Dream will change that. At the same time, it's important to remember that the Nymeros Martell family are rich enough to own and maintain a luxury palace (the Water Gardens) in addition to their actual castle seat in Sunspear.

The other people I can recall that have that same kind of wealth and opportunity were the Targaryens: at one point, they had the Red Keep, Dragonstone and Summerhall.

Frankly, I think it was a mistake for GRRM to not make Sunspear into Westeros' sixth or seventh largest city. If he hasn't regretted it already, he'll wish he would have made a effort to define and enumerate the population of Westeros and its demographic make-up clearer by Dream of Spring when everything goes to $h*! For example, how many soldiers did Robb take south with him? Since we know that pretty much all of them died at the Red Wedding and another huge chunk of them died at Winterfell during A Clash of Kings then the North's well should be running dry. Where are all these northern soldiers in A Dance with Dragons (and inevitably The Winds of Winter) coming from? Logistically, the North should be quickly overrun by the Others when the Wall falls because neither they nor the Night's Watch have the men or the tools to even slow them down.

All I'm sayin gis lot of people are going to die or suffer. Without hardline numbers to work with, it's going to seem like GRRM is pulling a rabbit out of a hat. 

Back on topic:

I don't know about now but I believe that Tywin Lannister was both the Lord of Casterly Rock and the Lord of Lannisport. Correct me if I'm wrong though...

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9 hours ago, Lemorecake said:

I think House Arryn of Gulltown was mentioned as among the richest, if not the richest of all families in the Vale.

They are said to be rich in comparison to the other branches of House Arryn, not actually in comparison to the actual houses of the Vale. 

In a medieval setting merchants are going to often seem rich in comparison to some lords given their income is more fluid while a lords assets are his lands. 

 

7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

The Martells would easily be the richest family in Dorne by far if Sunspear were an actual city (i.e. had more people living there).

Well the Martells control (at least)two towns, not just the shadow city around Sunspear but the nearby Planky town as well as the key port into Dorne, on top of that house Dalt is only a knightly house so they may have a decent level of control over Lemmonwood, controlling both sides of the greenblood. 

The Martells are likely one of the 10 richest houses in the realm. 

7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I don't know about now but I believe that Tywin Lannister was both the Lord of Casterly Rock and the Lord of Lannisport. Correct me if I'm wrong though...

he is the shield of Lanniport, rather than its actual ruler, though as the ruler of the Westerlands and the close proximity to the Rock he and his family do take seniority there. 

but I imagine if there is another house technically ruling the city there would be Lannister (and other westerland houses) interests in the city, and the same with any city. When Littlefinger was in charge of the customs of Gulltown it seems it was in the employee of Jon rather than the Royces or Graftons. 

 

9 hours ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Before AGOT?

most likely. the size of their army indicates this, as well as how large their lands are suggested to be. 

 

 

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Why people keep on listing the Freys as the richest I just can't get. They may (or may not) be the most powerful when it comes to numbers but they don't have even a single town of notice. Mootons with their busy port town and Cox with their smaller but still busy port town and their salt should have much more wealth. Any meaningful traffic of goods Freys' bridge see will most likely either come from or go to one of these two ports.

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well the Martells control (at least)two towns, not just the shadow city around Sunspear but the nearby Planky town as well as the key port into Dorne, on top of that house Dalt is only a knightly house so they may have a decent level of control over Lemmonwood, controlling both sides of the greenblood. 

The Martells are likely one of the 10 richest houses in the realm. 

He is the shield of Lanniport, rather than its actual ruler, though as the ruler of the Westerlands and the close proximity to the Rock he and his family do take seniority there. 

but I imagine if there is another house technically ruling the city there would be Lannister (and other westerland houses) interests in the city, and the same with any city. When Littlefinger was in charge of the customs of Gulltown it seems it was in the employee of Jon rather than the Royces or Graftons.

 

Wait, what do the Martells control? Sunspear, Water Gardens, Planky Town and the key port into Dorne? Isn't Planky Town the port of Dorne? Or is there another town that I am neglecting to remember?

Outside of the obvious, I don't understand the difference between knightly houses and houses ruled by lords?

If the Martells truly control those Sunspear, the Water Gardens, Planky Town, Lemonwood and whatever other port there is, then the Martells should technically be the fiscal peers of the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Redwynes and the Hightowers....

And if that's the case, why is Doran Martell so cautious. He and his family might be rich enough to hire at least one entire sellsword company if not two.

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27 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

And if that's the case, why is Doran Martell so cautious. He and his family might be rich enough to hire at least one entire sellsword company if not two.

the largest sellsword company is still only 20k men, that is not going to do Doran a lot of good against the rest of Westeros.

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Why people keep on listing the Freys as the richest I just can't get. They may (or may not) be the most powerful when it comes to numbers but they don't have even a single town of notice. Mootons with their busy port town and Cox with their smaller but still busy port town and their salt should have much more wealth. Any meaningful traffic of goods Freys' bridge see will most likely either come from or go to one of these two ports.

People think they are rich because the author has frequently suggested they are, when he mentions their wealth in the appendix, when the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands comments on it, even the maesters writing about the entire history of westeros as well as their wealth even being known to Dunk from Kings Landing then it stands to reason that their wealth is notable. 

Their lands are seemingly huge, we have no idea if there are any Frey towns in their domain, for all we know the Haigh's, Erenford's or Charlton's may control towns. Robb and Edmure (I'm guessing for the latter) were able to raise around 20k at the start of the series, Walder on his own was able to raise around a quarter/fith of their number and the fact that he commands a 1,000 knights also makes him out to be pretty rich. I doubt there are 10 vassal Houses in all of Westeros who command a 1,000 or more knights. 

 

As for the Cox's, they are landed knights and it is unclear how much territory they rule, but this suggests that they share rule of the town http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Hawick/ and beyond that we have no idea how much territory they rule. 

The Mootons seem to have lost lands, perhaps during Aerys reign they were the most wealthy, but that does not seem the case. However regarding ports and towns most of this inbound wealth is going to the merchants, not the ruler of the town and what profits the port are getting are split with the crown, as noted at white harbor, and presumably their overlords. 

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Why people keep on listing the Freys as the richest I just can't get. They may (or may not) be the most powerful when it comes to numbers but they don't have even a single town of notice. Mootons with their busy port town and Cox with their smaller but still busy port town and their salt should have much more wealth. Any meaningful traffic of goods Freys' bridge see will most likely either come from or go to one of these two ports.

The Freys are not the richest family in Westeros but they are the richest in the Riverlands.  The having or not having of a town is not always indicative of wealth.  The Lannister gold mines would still make Tywin the richest lord in the land even if there is not a town within riding distance of the mining operations.  The main source of revenue for the Freys is the toll they collect from people crossing their bridge.  The tolls bring steady income to the family and their vassals.  Their lands are also fertile because of its proximity to the river.  

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1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The Freys are not the richest family in Westeros but they are the richest in the Riverlands.  The having or not having of a town is not always indicative of wealth.  The Lannister gold mines would still make Tywin the richest lord in the land even if there is not a town within riding distance of the mining operations.  The main source of revenue for the Freys is the toll they collect from people crossing their bridge.  The tolls bring steady income to the family and their vassals.  Their lands are also fertile because of its proximity to the river.  

The Freys? Richer than the Moontons of Maidenpool?

Isn't the purpose of their bridge for people who want to use the Kingsroad to go north and south? Or is the purpose of the bridge to help people cross the Green Fork, east to west?

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The Freys? Richer than the Moontons of Maidenpool?

Isn't the purpose of their bridge for people who want to use the Kingsroad to go north and south? Or is the purpose of the bridge to help people cross the Green Fork, east to west?

To cross the river.  Looking at a 2 dimensional map doesn't say a whole lot about the terrain.  The river banks in any other part of the river may not allow for wagons to cross.  Steep banks, to use an example.  There must be a reason why a competing bridge has not been built in 600 years.  Maybe the Freys have the monopoly on the ideal location.  

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22 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The Hightowers are definitely richer than the Tyrells. Not anything against the Tyrells (they are certainly rich) but I don't think there's any competition in that regard. They definitely don't even come in second or third. Not only are there the Redwynes to consider but there are also the Ashfords, the Cuys and the Footlys who control the almost-cities of Ashford, Cuy and Tumbleton. Especially Cuy since it's coastal and far enough away from Oldtown for it to get its own traffic and revenue.

 

In the show, Tyrells is the wealthiest house of Westeros after Lannisters. Of course, it is possible that they skipped House Hightower.

But Robert Baratheon borrowed money from Tywin, Tyrells, Braavos and the Faith. If Hightowers are rich enough why did Robert never borrow money from the weathiest house in the Reach as you claim?

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8 minutes ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

In the show, Tyrells is the wealthiest house of Westeros after Lannisters. Of course, it is possible that they skipped House Hightower.

But Robert Baratheon borrowed money from Tywin, Tyrells, Braavos and the Faith. If Hightowers are rich enough why did Robert never borrow money from the weathiest house in the Reach as you claim?

Maybe because Robert is a drunken, PTSD-suffering pitiable fool whose counselors never asked on his behalf? Or maybe it's because Old Leyton Hightower and his daughter Malora they had the sense to say no?

Of course, they skipped over House Hightower in the TV show. We saw the Hightower in the show for what? One 10 second sequence in the season 6 finale. Sam was in Oldtown for how long? 5, maybe 6, episodes. And he never left the Citadel once he had gotten to Oldtown. Euron Greyjoy never besieged and blockaded Oldtown. We never even saw Mace Tyrell's wife, Alerie Hightower, the mother of the current generation of Margaery, Loras, Willas and Garlan (the latter two aren't even in the show).

So I wouldn't pay too much attention to the show. Because according to the show, the Lannisters are broke and the Tyrells are, in fact, the wealthiest house in Westeros.

And the Iron Throne isn't financially indebted to the Tyrell family. At least, not before Storm. And I don't recall Cersei ever even thinking about asking them for money in Feast. I think that was the whole point of her going to the Faith and asking them to cancel the debt of the Iron Throne.

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

People think they are rich because the author has frequently suggested they are, when he mentions their wealth in the appendix, when the daughter of the Lord of the Riverlands comments on it, even the maesters writing about the entire history of westeros as well as their wealth even being known to Dunk from Kings Landing then it stands to reason that their wealth is notable. 

Their lands are seemingly huge, we have no idea if there are any Frey towns in their domain, for all we know the Haigh's, Erenford's or Charlton's may control towns. Robb and Edmure (I'm guessing for the latter) were able to raise around 20k at the start of the series, Walder on his own was able to raise around a quarter/fith of their number and the fact that he commands a 1,000 knights also makes him out to be pretty rich. I doubt there are 10 vassal Houses in all of Westeros who command a 1,000 or more knights. 

 

As for the Cox's, they are landed knights and it is unclear how much territory they rule, but this suggests that they share rule of the town http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Hawick/ and beyond that we have no idea how much territory they rule. 

The Mootons seem to have lost lands, perhaps during Aerys reign they were the most wealthy, but that does not seem the case. However regarding ports and towns most of this inbound wealth is going to the merchants, not the ruler of the town and what profits the port are getting are split with the crown, as noted at white harbor, and presumably their overlords. 

 

I am not disputing they are rich but lands only bring so much wealth if you don't have some high value product like Redwynes vineyards. 

As for towns cat told us there are numerous towns along the GF and some would be in Freylands but my point is none of them are notable.

On taxes, Lannisport, Oldtown or any other port would be the same yet they are rich.

Lannisport houses several cadet branches. Gulltown has Graftons, at least two Shett cadets and one Areyn cadet. Duskendale has several Darklyn cadets though non of them seem to own any land (of considerable amount at least). Cox is said to be knight of the saltpans but Hawicks only listed to live there. I think it's of a similar nature with Gulltown; there are two Shetts there but one holds fealty to Royces who don't own the city.

 

Lords Declerant have 20000 men among 6 lords, that makes ~3350 men per house on average but we know Royces are by far the most powerful house in the vale so they could easly have 5000-6000 men, perhaps even more and yet they aren't told to be rich, so again land = wealth doesn't hold true in many cases.

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On 6/5/2018 at 12:37 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

For example, how many soldiers did Robb take south with him?

18,000

On 6/5/2018 at 12:37 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

 Since we know that pretty much all of them died at the Red Wedding and another huge chunk of them died at Winterfell during A Clash of Kings then the North's well should be running dry.

large amounts of the 18,000 died at the Green Fork and at Duskendale after the Traitor Roose Bolton sold out his liege, in addition to attrition from combat losses in Robbs victories and there was maybe 6000 that were killed at the red wedding. The force under Ser Rodrick did not count to Robbs troop number. 

On 6/5/2018 at 12:37 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Where are all these northern soldiers in A Dance with Dragons (and inevitably The Winds of Winter) coming from?

The mountain clans mostly. They have a great love for the Ned hence why they march with Stannis on his mission to free the north from the Iron Born and Rescue Arya Poole. 

On 6/5/2018 at 12:37 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Logistically, the North should be quickly overrun by the Others when the Wall falls because neither they nor the Night's Watch have the men or the tools to even slow them down.

Exactly. This is the ultimate plot of the story as foreshadowed in the prologue of Game. 

On 6/5/2018 at 12:37 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

All I'm sayin gis lot of people are going to die or suffer. 

This has been a running theme over all 5 books 

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8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

I am not disputing they are rich but lands only bring so much wealth if you don't have some high value product like Redwynes vineyards. 

Given that it is well established that the Riverlands is rich fertile land and that it's fertility comes from the trident, then we can assume that the Freys, who control lands connected to two of the three rivers, have rich fertile lands. 

Cat notes how prosperous the Green fork is  There would be more now; the summer had been long and peaceful. North of here the kingsroad ran along the Green Fork of the Trident, through fertile valleys and green woodlands, past thriving towns and stout holdfasts and the castles of the river lords.

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for towns cat told us there are numerous towns along the GF and some would be in Freylands but my point is none of them are notable.

The only towns we have really been told about in the Riverlands are ones that have been severely hurt by the war. Walder is in a better positon to actually protect his property than the likes of Mooton. 

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

On taxes, Lannisport, Oldtown or any other port would be the same yet they are rich.

The Hightowers are rich because they rule lands almost the size of the Crownlands. No other southern vassal  has more land, possibly not any northern vassal either. It is a little disingenuous to think their wealth is just from the city. 

We have no idea how wealthy the Lannisters of Lannisport are. We know the Lannisters of Casterly Rock are, but then we know they rule a decent amount of land, rich mines and rule the richest region in Westeros meaning their tax collections would be huge. 

 

Quote

 

Lords Declerant have 20000 men among 6 lords, that makes ~3350 men per house on average but we know Royces are by far the most powerful house in the vale so they could easly have 5000-6000 men, perhaps even more and yet they aren't told to be rich, so again land = wealth doesn't hold true in many cases.

not actually correct, while there are 6 lords declarant that army is not raised from just 6 Houses. 

"Bronze Yohn mistrusts me." Petyr pushed a log aside."He means to come in force. Symond Templeton will join him, do not doubt it. And Lady Waynwood too, I fear."

 "And Lord Belmore, Young Lord Hunter, Horton Redfort. They will bring Strong Sam Stone, the Tolletts, the Shetts, the Coldwaters, some Corbrays."

honestly, I am genuinely surprised you of all people did not know this. That 20k came from 9 Houses and an unknown amount of Corbrays, not just 6. 

And as we have not spent that much time in the Vale there has been less talk of the who the richest are in the Vale, but I'd be incredibly surprised if Yohn was not the richest considering he rules part of Gulltown, controlling some of the ports and he, like Hightower, has more than one Lordly House that is sworn to him. It is even pointed out in the world book that they are wealthy;  Daemon had been wed to Rhea Royce in 97 AC when she was heir to the ancient seat of Runestone in the Vale. It was a fine, rich match, but Daemon found the Vale little to his liking

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