The wealthiest family by region before AGOT

[Free Northman Reborn]

59 minutes ago, Switzeran said:

 You can't accept that 30 or 35 or 40 million isn't a bad guess based on these efforts, and then argue with the fact that the North simply has a lower population density than other regions.

 

Well I never argued that. The North absolutely has a far lower population density than the South. For example, it can raise a similar army size to the Vale but is about 5 times bigger, so clearly has a comensurately lower population density, if those army sizes represent similar sized populations.

On another note, I find it interesting that it is freely accepted that George had not mapped out vast parts of his plot and setting at the time when Robert travelled through the Barrowlands, like for example the entire Aegon plot. In the same vein, he had clearly not given the existence of the Dustins and Ryswells as major bannermen more than superficial thought, and in fact doesn’t mention them in the same category as even the relatively weak Mormonts, Glovers and Tallharts, and yet now they are significant powers in the North. Heck, was Barrowton even on the original GoT map? Yet Deewood Motte and Torhenn Square was.

I think in this context Robert’s comments are rather dated and not reflective of one of the most powerful lordships in the North, and location of the second largest urban centre in the North.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/8/2018 at 6:31 PM, The hairy bear said:

Thanks Ran, that was certainly a great read.

I do agree with your assessment that he puts too much weight into the urbanization ratio, without considering that the maps are not supposed to be complete. That said, I completely agree with the idea that the Westeros that George designed (single language, little cultural diversity, stable centralized government, long dynasties,...) would have been better served if all the distances had been halved.

Sometimes, I wonder if George thought this whole wealth/population thing through.

And yes!!! That's the single thing that bothers me the most: the fact that people who live beyond the Wall and people who live in Dorne can speak the same language. Like what that's 3000+ miles between them? And for it to be common enough to be called the Common Tongue?

smh

The Dornish and the Crannogmen should have their own language that should be mostly unintelligible, the Northerners should speak a language that is evocative of what the First Men spoke (in other words, a sister language of what the Free Folk can speak), the Iron Islands should also have their own language.

 

Speaking of Iron Islanders, doesn't anyone else think it weird that Lordsport is not an actual city. Like I get the Middle Ages were agrarian and rural for the most part but you had many towns that were quite large. King's Landing, Lannisport, Oldtown and White Harbor should be much more populated than what they are: well into the millions.

And towns like Sunspear, Lordsport, Seagard, Saltpans, Barrowton and the Weeping Town (major regional hubs) should be bustling. Especially Sunspear considering the fact that life for everyone in Dorne should almost as challenging as life is for the northerners: congregating in a coastal city with a mercantile harbor and a near-limitless source of freshwater nearby is your best chance at survival.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure a long winter would affect, say, the Stormlands, the Reach, or Dorne even remotely in the same manner as the North.

George has gone on record saying that it snows 'almost never' in Oldtown and Dorne, indicating that winter isn't really an issue down there. It might bring some cold and bad weather, but most definitely not much freezing temperatures or heaps of snow.

If it snows there, then those are likely going to be mild snows and the Arbor and Dorne might be able to continue producing wine five out of six years of a six-year-winter.

And even as north as Highgarden and Storm's End winter might not have that many teeth.

The surplus of food produced in those regions (in part, perhaps during milder winter years) might be more than enough to make winter not that much of a problem in those regions.

But in the North people simply freeze and starve to death every winter - something that simply doesn't seem to happen in the Reach or in Dorne.

A hard and long winter - especially after a major (civil) war - can kill off half or two thirds of the entire smallfolk in the North easily enough if we take a realistic view on the matter.

As of yet we don't have a 'seasonal history' of Westeros (although FaB might shed some more light on hard winters and plentiful summers considering the time it covers) but especially the population statistic in the North should mark each hard winter with a lot of corpses, allowing the population only to recover if there are 1-2 generations without a particularly hard winter.

Nobody thrives in the North or the lands beyond the Wall. People survive up there, but that's a difference.

21 hours ago, Switzeran said:

All of this goes to say that it's pretty damned empty. _How_ empty is a a matter of conjecture, but I'm comfortable with the fact that multiple different approaches for calculating the population of Westeros, including one which tried to estimate the populations of different regions as well, largely agree with one another. You can't accept that 30 or 35 or 40 million isn't a bad guess based on these efforts, and then argue with the fact that the North simply has a lower population density than other regions.

I recall going around the map once, and pointing out all the geographical features in the North stressing the fact that this looks like a wilderness. If you count all the forests, swamps, mountains, windswept plains, areas that are known to be pretty much empty (like Sea Dragon Point or the Stony Shore) then very few areas remain. There are very few regions left where many people might be living. In the east, quite a few people seem to be living close to the shores (Manderly men, Flints of Widow's Watch, etc.), and inland the banks of the White Knife and its tributary river might feed a considerable amount of people (as might the shores of the Long Lake). But that's it.

But if one looks at people like the Umbers - which, by and far, seem to be half way between a noble house and a clan when Jon refers to the Umbers grazing sheep on their lands (the Umbers, and not smallfolk, retainers, vassals, etc. of the Umbers - nobody would say the Royces or Whents would be grazing sheep, personally) - then it is really striking that a vast tract of land south of the Gift is pretty much empty, and also unable to properly defend the people living there against wildling raiders (who, by and far, are not well-armed or well-armored).

That clearly shows that the people living there are more concerned/have to be more concerned with trying to keep alive then use resources to properly guard and protect their lands against raiders.

This is only reinforced by the fact that Bran and the Reeds cross pretty much empty land on the way to the Wall. Sure, they also avoid settlements and the like, but hardly see any signs of settlements and the like, which is very striking when we compare it to Arya's and Brienne's and Jaime's journeys through the Riverlands. And they make their way through the lands of the clansmen - which can field about 3,000 men, indicating that those lands are, most likely, not the emptiest lands in the North. There must be regions that are much emptier than those.

Winterfell - as the major population center in the North - is also surrounded by pretty much nothing. Aside from Castle Cerwyn there is pretty much nothing in the area that we heard of - and it is not that minor castles are missing, there are also no villages, orchards, farms, etc. of note mentioned.

Perhaps there are some villages of note east of Winterfell, but if that's the case then Tyrion saw nothing of that from the Kingsroad.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure a long winter would affect, say, the Stormlands, the Reach, or Dorne even remotely in the same manner as the North.

George has gone on record saying that it snows 'almost never' in Oldtown and Dorne, indicating that winter isn't really an issue down there. It might bring some cold and bad weather, but most definitely not much freezing temperatures or heaps of snow.

If it snows there, then those are likely going to be mild snows and the Arbor and Dorne might be able to continue producing wine five out of six years of a six-year-winter.

And even as north as Highgarden and Storm's End winter might not have that many teeth.

The surplus of food produced in those regions (in part, perhaps during milder winter years) might be more than enough to make winter not that much of a problem in those regions.

But in the North people simply freeze and starve to death every winter - something that simply doesn't seem to happen in the Reach or in Dorne.

A hard and long winter - especially after a major (civil) war - can kill off half or two thirds of the entire smallfolk in the North easily enough if we take a realistic view on the matter.

As of yet we don't have a 'seasonal history' of Westeros (although FaB might shed some more light on hard winters and plentiful summers considering the time it covers) but especially the population statistic in the North should mark each hard winter with a lot of corpses, allowing the population only to recover if there are 1-2 generations without a particularly hard winter.

Nobody thrives in the North or the lands beyond the Wall. People survive up there, but that's a difference.

I recall going around the map once, and pointing out all the geographical features in the North stressing the fact that this looks like a wilderness. If you count all the forests, swamps, mountains, windswept plains, areas that are known to be pretty much empty (like Sea Dragon Point or the Stony Shore) then very few areas remain. There are very few regions left where many people might be living. In the east, quite a few people seem to be living close to the shores (Manderly men, Flints of Widow's Watch, etc.), and inland the banks of the White Knife and its tributary river might feed a considerable amount of people (as might the shores of the Long Lake). But that's it.

But if one looks at people like the Umbers - which, by and far, seem to be half way between a noble house and a clan when Jon refers to the Umbers grazing sheep on their lands (the Umbers, and not smallfolk, retainers, vassals, etc. of the Umbers - nobody would say the Royces or Whents would be grazing sheep, personally) - then it is really striking that a vast tract of land south of the Gift is pretty much empty, and also unable to properly defend the people living there against wildling raiders (who, by and far, are not well-armed or well-armored).

That clearly shows that the people living there are more concerned/have to be more concerned with trying to keep alive then use resources to properly guard and protect their lands against raiders.

This is only reinforced by the fact that Bran and the Reeds cross pretty much empty land on the way to the Wall. Sure, they also avoid settlements and the like, but hardly see any signs of settlements and the like, which is very striking when we compare it to Arya's and Brienne's and Jaime's journeys through the Riverlands. And they make their way through the lands of the clansmen - which can field about 3,000 men, indicating that those lands are, most likely, not the emptiest lands in the North. There must be regions that are much emptier than those.

Winterfell - as the major population center in the North - is also surrounded by pretty much nothing. Aside from Castle Cerwyn there is pretty much nothing in the area that we heard of - and it is not that minor castles are missing, there are also no villages, orchards, farms, etc. of note mentioned.

Perhaps there are some villages of note east of Winterfell, but if that's the case then Tyrion saw nothing of that from the Kingsroad.

Two main points.

One, the fact is climate cooling of even a few degrees caused by volcanic eruptions devastated entire civilizations in the real world due to lost harvests and mass famine. A multi year winter will devastate EVERYWHERE, whether it snows or not.

Two, no matter how sparsely populated you try to portray the North as, we know it is at least as populated as the Vale, and definitely more populated than Dorne and the Stormlands.

So it CANNOT be a desolate wasteland. It has to have millions of people. Just like the confirmed ability to mobilize arm and supply 30,000 soldiers over a thousand or more miles of territory necessitates.

Much as you hate to accept it, it is undeniable.

[Corvo the Crow]

On how 'empty' North is:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer. They set forth at daybreak to see a man beheaded, twenty in all, and Bran rode among them, nervous with excitement. This was the first time he had been deemed old enough to go with his lord father and his brothers to see the king's justice done. It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran's life.

The man had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills. Robb thought he was a wildling, his sword sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall. It made Bran's skin prickle to think of it. He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

A holdfast not even half a day's ride.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

It had grown colder after that, and far more quiet.

West of the road were flint hills, grey and rugged, with tall watchtowers on their stony summits. To the east the land was lower, the ground flattening to a rolling plain that stretched away as far as the eye could see. Stone bridges spanned swift, narrow rivers, while small farms spread in rings around holdfasts walled in wood and stone. The road was well trafficked, and at night for their comfort there were rude inns to be found.

Three days ride from Winterfell, however, the farmland gave way to dense wood, and the kingsroad grew lonely. The flint hills rose higher and wilder with each passing mile, until by the fifth day they had turned into mountains, cold blue-grey giants with jagged promontories and snow on their shoulders. When the wind blew from the north, long plumes of ice crystals flew from the high peaks like banners.

Inns, farms, holdfasts, watchtowers and most importantly, bridges! Many bridges with a well traficked road.

Quote

With the mountains a wall to the west, the road veered north by northeast through the wood, a forest of oak and evergreen and black brier that seemed older and darker than any Tyrion had ever seen. "The wolfswood," Benjen Stark called it, and indeed their nights came alive with the howls of distant packs, and some not so distant. Jon Snow's albino direwolf pricked up his ears at the nightly howling, but never raised his own voice in reply. There was something very unsettling about that animal, Tyrion thought.

There were eight in the party by then, not counting the wolf. Tyrion traveled with two of his own men, as befit a Lannister. Benjen Stark had only his bastard nephew and some fresh mounts for the Night's Watch, but at the edge of the wolfswood they stayed a night behind the wooden walls of a forest holdfast, and there joined up with another of the black brothers, one Yoren. Yoren was stooped and sinister, his features hidden behind a beard as black as his clothing, but he seemed as tough as an old root and as hard as stone. With him were a pair of ragged peasant boys from the Fingers. "Rapers," Yoren said with a cold look at his charges. Tyrion understood. Life on the Wall was said to be hard, but no doubt it was preferable to castration.

A holdfast, even in the forest.

Not every village is going to have a holdfast, mind you so if you see one village with a holdfast there may be tens of smaller villages lying around, too small to be deemed important to be given a holdfast.

[Ran]

Those quotes show that the area around Winterfell is not really all that empty. But three days north and ... gets mighty lonely! This is not to say _no one_ lives in these regions. But for people to travel along the roads and wonder, hey, where's all the people? It means something, namely that you'll find increasingly isolated, diffuse populations rather than concentrated populations.

The Vale has a population about similar to the North, in an area about 1/5th its size. Which area is going to feel less desolate is a pretty easy question to answer

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Switzeran said:

Those quotes show that the area around Winterfell is not really all that empty. But three days north and ... gets mighty lonely! This is not to say _no one_ lives in these regions. But for people to travel along the roads and wonder, hey, where's all the people? It means something, namely that you'll find increasingly isolated, diffuse populations rather than concentrated populations.

The Vale has a population about similar to the North, in an area about 1/5th its size. Which area is going to feel less desolate is a pretty easy question to answer

Tyrion says the road is well traficked though and it only gets lonely because after 3 days of ride you reach a dense forest and even then there's atleast one holdfast so even that forest has some population.

[Ran]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Tyrion says the road is well traficked though and it only gets lonely because after 3 days of ride you reach a dense forest and even then there's atleast one holdfast.

I can read, yes. I also read the bit where he literally notes that it's gotten lonely. A fact that doesn't really change for the rest of the journey to the Wall. That's hundreds of miles of very sparse population.

[Free Northman Reborn]

20 minutes ago, Switzeran said:

Those quotes show that the area around Winterfell is not really all that empty. But three days north and ... gets mighty lonely! This is not to say _no one_ lives in these regions. But for people to travel along the roads and wonder, hey, where's all the people? It means something, namely that you'll find increasingly isolated, diffuse populations rather than concentrated populations.

The Vale has a population about similar to the North, in an area about 1/5th its size. Which area is going to feel less desolate is a pretty easy question to answer

Well that is the entire point. The North is sparsely populated. But it still has a population as large as the Vale’s. It is just spread out.

So of course it will feel empty by southron standards.

But ironically, Robert scoffs at its lack of people yet it has a larger population than his native Stormlands.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

One, the fact is climate cooling of even a few degrees caused by volcanic eruptions devastated entire civilizations in the real world due to lost harvests and mass famine. A multi year winter will devastate EVERYWHERE, whether it snows or not.

A six-year-winter isn't a climatic catastrophe affecting the entire world. It is just a long winter, and as such it will affect only those regions longer which are already affected by winter.

Winter in Dorne and Oldtown is pretty much non-existent. Basically a joke. They might also feel it when they stores run empty - if they run empty during winter and they are not able to grow and harvest crops. I see no reason to believe the Costaynes or Hightowers or Daynes should face any trouble growing crops in winter.

Unless, of course, it is a particularly powerful winter - but even then it wouldn't snow long in Oldtown or Dorne.

Quote

Two, no matter how sparsely populated you try to portray the North as, we know it is at least as populated as the Vale, and definitely more populated than Dorne and the Stormlands.

I never tried to portray the North as weaker as the Stormlands or the Vale. With Dorne I'm inclined to believe much more Dornishmen (and Dornishwomen) took up arms during the First Dornish War and Daeron's Conquest than any Prince of Dorne might be able to marshal for an invasion of the Dornish Marches and the Reach, making it not unlikely that those 50,000 the Young Dragon wrote about were actually a thing.

I mean, we now also have to accept that the Vulture King assembled an army of 30,000 men in 37 AC without being supported by the knights, archers, men-at-arms, and levies of a single great house from Dorne (the only Dornish house riding with the Vulture King were the Wyls, if I recall correctly).

One assumes that the combined might of all the Dornish banners could field another 20,000 men.

And that's only with the size of the population back in 37 AC, 20+ years after the Dragon's Wroth scourged Dorne, likely killing thousands of people.

Quote

So it CANNOT be a desolate wasteland. It has to have millions of people. Just like the confirmed ability to mobilize arm and supply 30,000 soldiers over a thousand or more miles of territory necessitates.

It is a desolate wasteland in comparison to the other kingdoms of Westeros.

24 minutes ago, Switzeran said:

I can read, yes. I also read the bit where he literally notes that it's gotten lonely. A fact that doesn't really change for the rest of the journey to the Wall. That's hundreds of miles of very sparse population.

By comparison we have Stannis' village, a mere three days away from Winterfell, which is abandoned and empty.

And no indication that Stannis' army chanced on any populated villages/settlements in the regions where they could get new horses, fodder, and other provisions.

Granted, they march through the Wolfswood most of the time, but one gets the impression that the Kingswood is much more densely populated than the Wolfswood.

35 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

A holdfast, even in the forest.

Not every village is going to have a holdfast, mind you.

Is it? In Westeros nearly every village seems to have a keep or watchtower of some kind. Just think of the keep in the Riverlands Yoren and the gang try to find shelter in.

And the Kingsroad is the main travel and trade route in Westeros. The fact that there are very few inns along the road up to Winterfell - and essentially none north of Winterfell - reflects very badly on trade and population size in the North. If nobody can afford build and maintain an inn at that road, how on earth could this be a great business idea at one of the lesser roads?

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well that is the entire point. The North is sparsely populated. But it still has a population as large as the Vale’s. It is just spread out.

So of course it will feel empty by southron standards.

But ironically, Robert scoffs at its lack of people yet it has a larger population than his native Stormlands.

Well, the lands he complained about don't have a larger population than the Stormlands. Robert was complaining about the Barrowlands and the Neck up to Winterfell.

And the fact remains that logistics are an important part of warfare. Meaning that, if the population is as spread out as it is, it should be much more difficult for the North to assemble its entire strength than it is for any other region. It might even be logistically impossible to assemble all that those men into an army because the lands they would have to cross cannot feed them.

Torrhen's army may not have assembled at Winterfell but only at Moat Cailin, with the Starks, Dustins, Manderlys, etc. first assembling smaller armies at Winterfell, Barrowton, White Harbor, etc.

Just as the Starks sent men to fight for the Blacks during the Dance in (at least) three waves - the Barrowton army, the White Harbor men coming by ship, and then Cregan Stark's army.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Switzeran said:

I can read, yes. I also read the bit where he literally notes that it's gotten lonely. A fact that doesn't really change for the rest of the journey to the Wall. That's hundreds of miles of very sparse population.

Again, it gets lonely after they enter Wolfswood and when they are finally out of it they are them passing near the mountains so it's not like they are traversing through wide open plains with no habitation.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Is it? In Westeros nearly every village seems to have a keep or watchtower of some kind. Just think of the keep in the Riverlands Yoren and the gang try to find shelter in.

And the Kingsroad is the main travel and trade route in Westeros. The fact that there are very few inns along the road up to Winterfell - and essentially none north of Winterfell - reflects very badly on trade and population size in the North. If nobody can afford build and maintain an inn at that road, how on earth could this be a great business idea at one of the lesser roads?

I'd disagree. We see 3 holdfasts in the 3 towns Gregor burned but then again, they are towns however small they may be. Not all Village is going to have a holdfast, nor will they all get a tower keep unless their lord lives there. From what we see holdfasts are there so people can take refuge when nearby settlements are under attack so for smaller villages there will be just one for a few villages or possibly none at all. See Lord Goodbrook's village, there is no tower there because he doesn't live there and Eustace only had 1 watchtower turned to tower keep for 3 villages with no holdfast at all.

Those inns, bridges, farmland holdfasts and well traficked roads Tyrion see are all north of WF so I find it odd Kingsroad south of WF is so empty while North of is so full of life to warrant so many inns and bridges.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I'd disagree. We see 3 holdfasts in the 3 towns Gregor burned but then again, they are towns however small they may be.

Are all the witnesses testifying in front of the Iron Throne towns? Some of them may have been villages.

But it is not that towns or villages do have keeps and holdfasts, lords and knights do have them. A castle is there to rule over and control the smallfolk and the land, not to protect some peasants. Peasants don't have castles, keeps, or watchtowers. If they did, they would be lords.

We see this when Brynden Tully delivers the smallfolk of Riverrun to the mercy of the Lannisters and Freys.

Sometimes lords and knights do live in (and control) villages and towns, but there are also situations when this isn't the case.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not all Village is going to have a holdfast, nor will they all get a tower keep unless their lord lives there. From what we see holdfasts are there so people can take refuge when nearby settlements are under attack so for smaller villages there will be just one for a few villages or possibly none at all. See Lord Goodbrook's village, there is no tower there because he doesn't live there and Eustace only had 1 watchtower turned to tower keep for 3 villages with no holdfast at all.

The North is a very empty place, making it increasingly likely that any significant settlement has a petty lord in the area. Stannis' empty village has a watchtower, and even the abandoned watchtower in the lake up in the Gift had such a tower.

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Those inns, bridges, farmland holdfasts and well traficked roads Tyrion see are all north of WF so I find it odd Kingsroad south of WF is so empty while North of is so full of life to warrant so many inns and bridges.

The Kingsroad south of Winterfell is much livelier than the portion north of Winterfell - and by Robert's standards pretty much nothing happens there.

And it is not that Robert comes from the most populous or the most developed region of Westeros. The Stormlands are also a pretty wild place, with the Kingswood and the Rainwood in the middle of it - but it still seems that there much more people per square mile living in the Stormlands than they are in the southern reaches of the North - and even less so farther up in the North.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is not that towns or villages do have keeps and holdfasts, lords and knights do have them. A castle is there to rule over and control the smallfolk and the land, not to protect some peasants. Peasants don't have castles, keeps, or watchtowers. If they did, they would be lords.

Is a holdfast and a keep the same thing though? I think GRRM uses it seperately or else how would Robb have spare holdfasts to give his brothers or why would Vance, Piper and Darry go to KL instead of whoever else owned that holdfast? We get no mention of any lordlings or landed knights in those towns except for an old Ser Willum of Sherrer which seems to be Raymun Darry's land and guess who else is old, a ser and a Darry? Ser Willem. So these are lands owned directly by these lords.

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I'd disagree. We see 3 holdfasts in the 3 towns Gregor burned but then again, they are towns however small they may be.

Are all the witnesses testifying in front of the Iron Throne towns? Some of them may have been villages.

But it is not that towns or villages do have keeps and holdfasts, lords and knights do have them. A castle is there to rule over and control the smallfolk and the land, not to protect some peasants. Peasants don't have castles, keeps, or watchtowers. If they did, they would be lords.

We see this when Brynden Tully delivers the smallfolk of Riverrun to the mercy of the Lannisters and Freys.

Sometimes lords and knights do live in (and control) villages and towns, but there are also situations when this isn't the case.

Quote

Not all Village is going to have a holdfast, nor will they all get a tower keep unless their lord lives there. From what we see holdfasts are there so people can take refuge when nearby settlements are under attack so for smaller villages there will be just one for a few villages or possibly none at all. See Lord Goodbrook's village, there is no tower there because he doesn't live there and Eustace only had 1 watchtower turned to tower keep for 3 villages with no holdfast at all.

The North is a very empty place, making it increasingly likely that any significant settlement has a petty lord in the area. Stannis' empty village has a watchtower, and even the abandoned watchtower in the lake up in the Gift had such a tower.

Quote

Those inns, bridges, farmland holdfasts and well traficked roads Tyrion see are all north of WF so I find it odd Kingsroad south of WF is so empty while North of is so full of life to warrant so many inns and bridges.

The Kingsroad south of Winterfell is much livelier than the portion north of Winterfell - and by Robert's standards pretty much nothing happens there.

And it is not that Robert comes from the most populous or the most developed region of Westeros. The Stormlands are also a pretty wild place, with the Kingswood and the Rainwood in the middle of it - but it still seems that there much more people per square mile living in the Stormlands than they are in the southern reaches of the North - and even less so farther up in the North.

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Is a holdfast and a keep the same thing though? I think GRRM uses it seperately or else how would Robb have spare holdfasts to give his brothers or why would Vance, Piper and Darry go to KL instead of whoever else owned that holdfast? We get no mention of any lordlings or landed knights in those towns except for an old Ser Willum of Sherrer which seems to be Raymun Darry's land and guess who else is old, a ser and a Darry? Ser Willem. So these are lands owned directly by these lords.

The reason why the three prominent young Riverlords go to KL is that they are the ones going to Edmure first, demanding that they strike back against the Lannisters and then Hoster forces them to lay their grievances before the king.

The men from the villages, etc. would have gone to their landed knights and petty lords, and they would have gone to their liege lords, or possibly directly to Riverrun.

[Ran]

A holdfast is simply some sort of more-or-less fortified structure which is for the use of local people in case of emergency. Some are barely fortified, some have walls and gates and all that. A holdfast merely says that at some point someone believed there was a use to it. The population may have dwindled since, but the holdfast would still be there. There are even abandoned holdfasts and watchtowers scattered throughout the North (we have a couple examples in the south, but in those cases it's clear that it's because of the war chasing people away to better shelters), which implies that the population dynamics are either that of a dwindling population or, alternatively, that some areas are being abandoned while other areas are growing.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Switzeran said:

A holdfast is simply some sort of more-or-less fortified structure which is for the use of local people in case of emergency. Some are barely fortified, some have walls and gates and all that. A holdfast merely says that at some point someone believed there was a use to it. The population may have dwindled since, but the holdfast would still be there. There are even abandoned holdfasts and watchtowers scattered throughout the North (we have a couple examples in the south, but in those cases it's clear that it's because of the war chasing people away to better shelters), which implies that the population dynamics are either that of a dwindling population or, alternatively, that some areas are being abandoned while other areas are growing.

Do we really know smallfolk controls such places? It might be, but we never learn that this is the case, do we?

And Stannis' watchtower is clearly too small to shelter an entire village, just as the watchtower at the lake likely is. Such structures appear to me more like post overseeing land, making them part of border defenses (up in the Gift; and with the Osgrey tower, which may have been part of Gardeners border defenses against the Lannisters), not so much places where the smallfolk of the region can (and is allowed to) seek shelter.

Abandoning villages/settlements in the South may stretch back to quick growth and development of KL. That could only have gone as quickly as it did if a significant portion of the people living in the Riverlands, the Crownlands, and the Reach would have left their villages, fields, farms, etc. to try to make a living in the city.

And one assumes this kind of back and forth between country and city life continued through the centuries, getting especially strong during periods of war and other crises.

One assumes, for instance, that King Aerys I would try to repopulate his city which lost three quarters of its population during the Great Spring Sickness by inviting smallfolk to move there. People would also seek shelter and safety there during wartime (like they did and still do during the present wars), etc.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Do we really know smallfolk controls such places? It might be, but we never learn that this is the case, do we?

Controlled and controlled. Holdfasts exist as a refuge for the common people around them. The holdfasts that were attacked, and some burned, in the riverlands were described as being places the locals went to for safety when the Mountain raided them. And Eddard asked the various knights where they were, as those holdfasts were under their protection. So it's clear that these holdfasts are not personal seats of these knights and lords, but instead very much localized mini-forts for the commoners. Doubtless in some cases there was some knight or old squire or something nominally in charge on behalf of the lord, but in some remote village, it's likely no one has specific charge, merely responsibilities in relation to the holdfast.

 

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, that makes sense.

And come to think of it - one would assume that each village/town of some size would have some (fortified) structure to protect the food they store for winter. The lords seem to take control of a lot of that stuff but in the more fertile regions most of the food should remain with the people who actually produced it.

Such holdfasts could then fulfill a double role - or at least may have come to fulfill such a role since the Conquest ended the era of continuous warfare in Westeros.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, for any population in the millions you are talking tens of thousands, maybe up to 100,000 even, villages scatterred across the North, given that the average village seems to consist of maybe 50 people or less.

So it is obvious that there are a lot more villages scattered around the North than Robert’s observations would imply.

My view is that the route of the Kingsroad is determined by the shortest way to get from Winterfell to Moat Cailin. Not by selecting the most fertile parts of the Barrowlands for a scenic tour of its villages. With even 300,000 people, it would require perhaps 5000 to 10,000 villages to exist in the Barrowlands.

Clearly these villages are located away from the Kingsroad, based on Robert’s comments, which are so highly esteemed in these parts, reliable narrator that he apparently is assumed to be.