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Would it matter if Daenerys and Jon Snow were infertile?


norwaywolf123

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17 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Getting the cart before the horse a bit here. As Jon wasn't knifed in the winky, we can't really speculate yet on him.

Only death can pay for life gets a very nuanced handling in the series. Dany is called Mother of Dragons, daughter of death in the HOTU.

Healers have power over life and notice that in the Dothraki hoard that the healers are eunuchs and the barren. They have traded the life they save with the live they would give others. Same with the Maesters. The symbolism also extends to the KG and the NW. Mirri Maz Duur states that she paid a steep price for what she learned and she surely has power over life and death: notice that she is 40ish, has no children, and is a healer.

MMR's statements sound like a magical realignment to me and it makes me think that Dany's infertility is magical balance and tied to the dragons. That was the price paid. I suspect her fertility would gradually increase if one, two, or all of the dragons die and it would come back in degrees based on the number of dragons dying.

Slightly off topic, but that makes me wonder about what they told Arya at the HoBW, she may be infertile while using the faces (makes sense as she'd have to be other people)

I can see the dragons being traded for the ability to have children. In that case, would her period coming back be because Drogon was injured perhaps?

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Also realized that I never answered the initial question fully since I don't think it's an actual long term issue. If they are both hypothetically infertile, and it's permanent the Starks would continue via the girls (In theory, but who knows as both their arcs show hints of this magical infertility issue too.) The Targaryen bloodline would end. I guess a child could be adopted for succession purposes, but people may not honor it, as they believe in blood right and could use that as an excuse to usurp the child. But, if the Lords like the child then there wouldn't be an issue. Or they start an election based system of some sort. I think they'll do a constitutional monarchy of some sort regardless though, so that wouldn't change much.

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Assuming no far off branches of Targs could be found and Baratheons are a no go, then if Dany dies first Jon as her closest relative and husband takes the throne and after he dies it passes on to Starks since no targs are left and they are his closest relatives. He can take Sansa as a wife for a smoother transition. If Jon dies first, Dany decides she needs a break, goes to Lys buys a couple of Lyseni slave babies and passes them off as her twins from Jon. Two boys, so they won't marry each other and will marry with Stark maids.

All these are assuming Jon<3Dany which I don't believe.

Jon belongs to Wall first and Val second and then to Sansa if he loses both.

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3 hours ago, Azarial said:

Slightly off topic, but that makes me wonder about what they told Arya at the HoBW, she may be infertile while using the faces (makes sense as she'd have to be other people)

I can see the dragons being traded for the ability to have children. In that case, would her period coming back be because Drogon was injured perhaps?

I'll have to add Arya/FM to the list. Thanks!

It's possible that Drogon being injured affected her. I don't have a good idea as to how it would work as I can see a number of possibilities. I'm also wondering about Dany locking up Viseryon and Rhaegal thus stunting their growth.

 

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On 6/5/2018 at 11:28 PM, 867-5309 said:

That would end the rule by inherited right, which is one of the cornerstones of feudalism.  I doubt it would matter to Jon, because he swore to father no children.  He would be the biggest shit heel in the story to break that vow after breaking his oaths to save Arya.  Dany may not be interested in setting up a dynastic rulership.  She is genuinely interested in empowering all people (except the slave masters) and it would not be out of character if she sets up a system of elected rule.   That said, I don't think Dany is infertile.  Just look at how everything comes in 3s in her life.  I believe she will have three children before the end of the story.  Three bloodriders, three dragons, three handmaidens, etc.  

I disagree that Daenerys seeks to empowering all people, she is mostly about empowering herself. She was willing to conquer Westeros with Dothraki, which will lead to the subjugation of the natives. Still she is certainly more egalitarian and tolerant than many other characters in ASOIAF.

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On 6/5/2018 at 11:37 PM, Ylath's Snout said:

Or Dany/Jon could just adopt an heir and then things just keep on truckin as regular. Heck Jon has living siblings so he is sett, assuming he survives/revives after the stabbing and somehow become king/lord.

Can Feudal ruler adopt their heirs? Must not heirs share a blood connection with the ruler to be able to inherit?

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On 6/5/2018 at 11:57 PM, Kandrax said:

She isn't infertile. MMD meant  dosh khaleen.

As in?

On 6/6/2018 at 12:18 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

There is also the dragons to consider, they can live for hundreds of years. There needs to be someone with enough dragon blood to control the dragons or they could end up causing great chaos and destruction in Westeros. 

Cannot Westerosi somehow hunt the dragons down and kill them, even if it would be difficult?

On 6/6/2018 at 12:44 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

They could go there or anywhere else, there is no way of knowing at this point. They are still very young and could end up living the majority of their lives in Westeros. The people of Westeros would grow very worried about the dragons if there comes a time when there is no one left to connect or bond with them, rightfully so in my opinion. 

Would not wild dragons only live for themself? I think that dragons controlled by some person are much more dangerous than wild dragons.  Wild dragons may eat the lifestock and sometimes attack humans, but it was dragons controller by humans who burned the fields, the cities and potentially caused a famine.

On 6/6/2018 at 10:28 PM, Gertrude said:

If they both survive and if one or the other ends up ruling and if he/she/they are infertile, I don't see a problem with adopting an heir. The problem would be if the people accept and support this. No noble rules without the consent of the people they rule. True, an adopted heir would have a larger hurdle towards gaining acceptance and it gives their enemies a more powerful card to play against them, but it just puts them closer to revolt on the sliding scale of peace-war than a trueborn heir would be by default.

I think that the smart move would be to work with a council of nobles to decide an acceptable heir, rather than Dany/Jon deciding unilaterally. Do it early, do it by as large a consensus as possible, and failing that, explain your reasoning and do everything in your power while you still live to earn friends and allies to your side so the succession has a chance of being peaceful.

If they call a council to adopt a heir then they should choose a person who follows the Faith of the Seven and is from the South(Riverlands, Vale, Westerlands, Crownlands, Reach, Stormlands). This person would represent the core of any united Westerosi kingdom.

On 6/7/2018 at 8:59 PM, Lollygag said:

Getting the cart before the horse a bit here. As Jon wasn't knifed in the winky, we can't really speculate yet on him.

You are right.

On 6/7/2018 at 8:59 PM, Lollygag said:

Only death can pay for life gets a very nuanced handling in the series. Dany is called Mother of Dragons, daughter of death in the HOTU.

Healers have power over life and notice that in the Dothraki hoard that the healers are eunuchs and the barren. They have traded the life they save with the live they would give others. Same with the Maesters. The symbolism also extends to the KG and the NW. Mirri Maz Duur states that she paid a steep price for what she learned and she surely has power over life and death: notice that she is 40ish, has no children, and is a healer.

This seems to be a trend.

On 6/7/2018 at 8:59 PM, Lollygag said:

MMR's statements sound like a magical realignment to me and it makes me think that Dany's infertility is magical balance and tied to the dragons. That was the price paid. I suspect her fertility would gradually increase if one, two, or all of the dragons die and it would come back in degrees based on the number of dragons dying.

Great idea! But perhaps all dragons need to die for Daenerys to become fertile again?

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On 6/8/2018 at 2:53 PM, Azarial said:

Slightly off topic, but that makes me wonder about what they told Arya at the HoBW, she may be infertile while using the faces (makes sense as she'd have to be other people).

If so, is Arya fertile or has potential for fertility while not wearing any faces?

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3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Can Feudal ruler adopt their heirs? Must not heirs share a blood connection with the ruler to be able to inherit?

I know it was done in Rome and Byzantium on coccation, sure it might be rare (Considering that nobles in Westeros will prefer a bastard heir to no heir) but by the end this story I suspect that is Jon/Dany survive and rule they will have so much political (maybe religious) clout that they could have a reasonable shot at making a adopted heir work.

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3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Great idea! But perhaps all dragons need to die for Daenerys to become fertile again?

Perhaps. I can see it going a number of ways, so I'm not sure. I suspect that all of the dragons would need to die if Dany were to have a healthy baby and also come out of the birth ok herself, but the rest might be kind of fluid. Dunno.

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3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If so, is Arya fertile or has potential for fertility while not wearing any faces? 

In the less literal sense, no FM can have children as they are No One. That means it's impossible to serve as anyone's parent as that now makes you someone.

It's the same treatment seen with the NW (guardians of the realm), the KG (guardians of the king, his family and interests). The FM can be characterized as guardians of Braavos and slaves in general. They can have biological children, but they can't serve as their true parents as their positions don't allow it due to a conflict of interest. You have to choose. Jaime has biological children, but in effect, he is childless.

In modern superhero mythology, we see the same treatment: one can't properly devote one's life to service on a large scale if one has obligations at home. Superman can't both save the world and be home in time for supper and help the kids with their homework. He'll fall short on one. The Azor Ahai myth gives the same lesson: the one who saves the world will have to make a massive personal sacrifice for it.

 

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3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

 Cannot Westerosi somehow hunt the dragons down and kill them, even if it would be difficult

Maybe, but I'm sure they would rather avoid it, having a king/queen that can control them would probably be a better option.

3 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Would not wild dragons only live for themself? I think that dragons controlled by some person are much more dangerous than wild dragons.  Wild dragons may eat the lifestock and sometimes attack humans, but it was dragons controller by humans who burned the fields, the cities and potentially caused a famine.

Perhaps they could live in the wild with the intentions of never bothering anyone. However they have the potential to be used as weapons of mass destruction. People could come from all over the world to try and steal them so they can become conquers. Possibly someone evil with dark magic will be able to tame the dragons and use them for terrible things.

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I believe Jon's infertility probably wouldn't matter, because he'd still be bound by his oaths to the NW and unlikely if R+L=J is true anyone would have a chance to press any claim he possibly might have. 

Not because I believe Jon somehow probably didn't bleed out after being stabbed 10 times, but because he swore to serve for all his nights to come after all-in death he cannot serve I see no reason for why if resurected he'd be freed from his obligations and I think Jon is honorble to agree he is still a black brother through and through.

And I really just hope the sad orphan who turned out to be special(the chosen one of you will) doesn't get rewarded with his own kingdom.

Bleh.

Not because I dislike Jon(quite the contrary), or think he'd be a particularly bad king, but that ending for him seems too romantic.

 

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And I really just hope the sad orphan who turned out to be special(the chosen one of you will) doesn't get rewarded with his own kingdom.

Bleh.

Not because I dislike Jon(quite the contrary), or think he'd be a particularly bad king, but that ending for him seems too romantic.

Jon might get that but if GRRM goes down that route it is likely all the things Jon has lost along the way makes it a hollow victory. I'm sure he'd rather lived in WF with Ned, Rob and the rest than sit the Iron Throne.

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Election of Sealord seems to be very bloody process. Or next leader of Braavos had to survive a lot of assassination attemps. In Westeros candidates would have access to armies instead of armed gangs that VIPs in B are using, so any attemp to elect next king via election would almost certainly cause a war. 

Great Councils are an option, but they would work only either if all candidates accept their decisions or there is someone strong enough to enforce them. There has been 2 Great Councils first time J I was still ruling and second time Bloodraven, so no other candidate for crown were strong enough to challenge the inheritance of crown. Naturally a ruler could call a Great Council when (s)he is still ruling, but lords could change their minds when (s)he has passed away.

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20 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If so, is Arya fertile or has potential for fertility while not wearing any faces?

Well, they said if you become one of us we take all of you. And they specifically mentioned her female parts on the list of things they take. So if this is a vow to not reproduce or a magical, or medical thing is never stated. And it's permanence isn't either. So it's all speculation at this point. But, her sight was taken temporarily with a potion so I see that to be as likely an explanation as anything. 

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On 6/8/2018 at 12:20 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Assuming no far off branches of Targs could be found and Baratheons are a no go, then if Dany dies first Jon as her closest relative and husband takes the throne and after he dies it passes on to Starks since no targs are left and they are his closest relatives. He can take Sansa as a wife for a smoother transition. If Jon dies first, Dany decides she needs a break, goes to Lys buys a couple of Lyseni slave babies and passes them off as her twins from Jon. Two boys, so they won't marry each other and will marry with Stark maids.

All these are assuming Jon<3Dany which I don't believe.

Jon belongs to Wall first and Val second and then to Sansa if he loses both.

This sounds too much like a wish list from a Stark fan.  I don't like this scenario at all.  My wish, Jon stays dead and then the question of whether his junk works is not an issue.  Daenerys can choose who she wants to father the baby dragon.  Willas Tyrell is my choice for Daenerys.  

Keep Jon at the wall if he lives.  Fathering is another violation of his vows but he's not honorable enough to keep it.  I suppose he can mate with Arya and produce a litter at wall.  

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2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Daenerys can choose who she wants to father the baby dragon.  Willas Tyrell is my choice for Daenerys.  

I suspect Daenerys might be the reason Willas Tyrell is still unmarried, despite being the heir, while all his younger siblings have married. Even with a bad leg he's still one of if not thee most eligible bachelor in Westeros and him not even being betrothed until Sansa was brought up is a bit suspect, in my opinion. Perhaps the Tyrells knew all along about the Viserys/Arianne betrothal or figured it out through Willas' friendship with Oberyn and the letters they have exchanged through the years were not just discussing horse flesh. Either way I hope we got to see Willas in the next book while the Iron Born attempt to invade.

If Jon ends up with someone I believe it will be Val and not one of his sister-cousins.

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3 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I suspect Daenerys might be the reason Willas Tyrell is still unmarried, despite being the heir, while all his younger siblings have married. Even with a bad leg he's still one of if not thee most eligible bachelor in Westeros and him not even being betrothed until Sansa was brought up is a bit suspect, in my opinion. Perhaps the Tyrells knew all along about the Viserys/Arianne betrothal or figured it out through Willas' friendship with Oberyn and the letters they have exchanged through the years were not just discussing horse flesh. Either way I hope we got to see Willas in the next book while the Iron Born attempt to invade.

If Jon ends up with someone I believe it will be Val and not one of his sister-cousins.

I am not a fan of Val but why would she marry a wight?  Are you saying Jon is the Nk come again and Val is his ice queen?  I can see it the other way around.  Val is the human of the pair and Jon is the ice king.  The pair can sacrifice their children and Arya to the others in exchange for peace.  

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