Tyrells and skinchanging

[Pukisbaisals]

Death of Luthor Tyrell (Mace’s father) looks very suspicious.

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"A great oaf," said the Queen of Thorns. "His father was an oaf as well. My husband, the late Lord Luthor. Oh, I loved him well enough, don't mistake me. A kind man, and not unskilled in the bedchamber, but an appalling oaf all the same. He managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him.

From ADwD  Varamyr chapter we know, that skinchanging can go wrong:

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Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

We also know, that skinchanger can easily shift his consciousness between several animals without returning to his own body: 

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“he gave a low growl, calling to his one-eyed brother, to his small sly sister. As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels. They had caught the scent as well. As he ran, he saw through their eyes too and glimpsed himself ahead.”

What I think happened in Luthor’s case was a sort of skinchanging mishap. He warged the bird and the horse both and was shifting his consciousness between them thus controlling both animals. Then he lost himself in the flight and himself led his horse to the precipice “to fly”.

Another Tyrell who can be related to skinchanging is Willas. He is very interested in animals:

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Their father chilled him with a look. "Willas is heir to Highgarden, and by all reports a mild and courtly young man, fond of reading books and looking at the stars. He has a passion for breeding animals as well, and owns the finest hounds, hawks, and horses in the Seven Kingdoms."

 

and:

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"Willas has the best birds in the Seven Kingdoms," Margaery said when the two of them were briefly alone. "He flies an eagle sometimes".

Willas is crippled so he can’t enjoy riding himself. His movement impairment put him in situation alike one of Bran’s - being unable of hunting and joisting from his teenage years Willas craves for possibility to move freely. On the other hand he has plenty of time to hone his skinchanging skills if he has such.

Btw, Loras is excellent rider and Margaery is fond of riding and hawking.

Skinchanging is associated with first men families.  One house in Reach is particularly associated with skinchanging – house Crane. Marrying to vassal houses is common thing in Westeros and Tyrells probably have substantial amount of first men ancestry.  There is such Meredyth Crane in Margaery's retinue. Her connection with Tyrells is not specified, but most of the Margaery’s ladies are her kinswomen. Meredyth is the one Margaery often rides off hawking with:

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“She prays with her septa, reads with her cousin Elinor, sings with her cousin Alla, sews with her cousin Megga. When she's not off hawking with Janna Fossoway and Merry Crane, she's playing come-into-my-castle with that little Bulwer girl.”

Regardless of her kinship to Tyrells - if Meredyth Crane retained warging skills of House Crane, and if those skills are not limited to the cranes only, she could be very valuable spy in Kings Landing.

So maybe Tyrells are not so boring after all?

[John Suburbs]

Not bad. I've always been suspicious of Luthar's death as well, but I chalked it up to a cover story for his murder, possibly at the direction of Lady Olenna. Horses do not ride off cliffs even if you spur them to, so the only way this could have happened is if the horse was in full gallop, stopped, and Luthor pitched forward to his death. The problem with this is that you don't need to be galloping along when you are hawking. In fact, you don't need to be moving at all: the hawk moves, catches its prey and brings it back to you. But if Luthor was flipping back and forth between horse and bird...

Still, I would need to see more evidence for Tyrell skinchanging. For most of history, the leading Tyrells intermarried with Redwynes and Hightowers, with some younger siblings marrying Fossaways. The only known Crane marriages are to Florents, which the Tyrells tend to shy away from.

Also, there is the odd tale of Parmen Crane. "Parmen the Purple" was one of Renly's Rainbow Guard, which is an honor that would be granted to someone with blood ties to the Tyrells. But then he switched to Stannis before Renly's blood was even cold, which would be an odd thing to do for the same reason. But then Meredith, who may or may not be directly related to Parmen, is part of Margy's inner circle, so who knows?

So I would need more evidence of Tyrell skinchanging before I bite on this, but it does provide a feasible alternative to the murder theory.

 

[pigo]

This is a delicious suggestion. it's mentioned that House Crane has a history of skinchanging, and they're in the right neck of the woods (/garden) for it to be possibly that other houses of the Reach are similar.

 

Edit - sorry, missed the reference to House Crane in the OP.

[White Ravens]

GRRM goes to some length to establish that skinchanging is an ability found in First Men and that skinchangers were hunted and killed in the South.  Sounds like a bit of a stretch to have the Tyrells be secret skinchangers.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Death of Luthor Tyrell (Mace’s father) looks very suspicious.

From ADwD  Varamyr chapter we know, that skinchanging can go wrong:

We also know, that skinchanger can easily shift his consciousness between several animals without returning to his own body: 

What I think happened in Luthor’s case was a sort of skinchanging mishap. He warged the bird and the horse both and was shifting his consciousness between them thus controlling both animals. Then he lost himself in the flight and himself led his horse to the precipice “to fly”.

Another Tyrell who can be related to skinchanging is Willas. He is very interested in animals:

 

and:

Willas is crippled so he can’t enjoy riding himself. His movement impairment put him in situation alike one of Bran’s - being unable of hunting and joisting from his teenage years Willas craves for possibility to move freely. On the other hand he has plenty of time to hone his skinchanging skills if he has such.

Btw, Loras is excellent rider and Margaery is fond of riding and hawking.

Skinchanging is associated with first men families.  One house in Reach is particularly associated with skinchanging – house Crane. Marrying to vassal houses is common thing in Westeros and Tyrells probably have substantial amount of first men ancestry.  There is such Meredyth Crane in Margaery's retinue. Her connection with Tyrells is not specified, but most of the Margaery’s ladies are her kinswomen. Meredyth is the one Margaery often rides off hawking with:

Regardless of her kinship to Tyrells - if Meredyth Crane retained warging skills of House Crane, and if those skills are not limited to the cranes only, she could be very valuable spy in Kings Landing.

So maybe Tyrells are not so boring after all?

are you sure it wasn't just bloodraven doing the deed. that seems to be the goto theory option after nearly a decade between books 

[Lollygag]

You know, I've had the Cranes nagging at the back of my mind for some time now. Nice catch with the Tyrells. If you're on the right track (think you're onto something anyhow), then there should be more to find. Been meaning to do a Tyrell reread, but will probably never get around to it.

There's a short list of families about whom we've been told little because I suspect it's too spoilery. The Tyrells are one of them. Stuff like this about them just really gives me pause though I can't say where it's leading to.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Highgarden

The gods, both old and new, are well served in Highgarden. The splendor of the castle sept, with its rows of stained-glass windows celebrating the Seven and the ubiquitous Garth Greenhand, is rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown. And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself.

 

[Pukisbaisals]

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

You know, I've had the Cranes nagging at the back of my mind for some time now. Nice catch with the Tyrells. If you're on the right track (think you're onto something anyhow), then there should be more to find. Been meaning to do a Tyrell reread, but will probably never get around to it.

There's a short list of families about whom we've been told little because I suspect it's too spoilery. The Tyrells are one of them. Stuff like this about them just really gives me pause though I can't say where it's leading to.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Highgarden

 

The gods, both old and new, are well served in Highgarden. The splendor of the castle sept, with its rows of stained-glass windows celebrating the Seven and the ubiquitous Garth Greenhand, is rivaled only by that of the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing and the Starry Sept of Oldtown. And Highgarden's lush green godswood is almost as renowned, for in the place of a single heart tree it boasts three towering, graceful, ancient weirwoods whose limbs have grown so entangled over the centuries that they appear to be almost a single tree with three trunks, reaching for each other above a tranquil pool. Legend has it these trees, known in the Reach as the Three Singers, were planted by Garth Greenhand himself.

 

 

 

Yes, weirwoods, how I forgot about them. Willas Tyrell lives in castle with three ancient weirwoods.

[Pukisbaisals]

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

are you sure it wasn't just bloodraven doing the deed. that seems to be the goto theory option after nearly a decade between books 

You mean Bloodraven warged in a horse and assasinated Luthor? Could be, but  why to kill Luthor? Mace become lord of Higharden after him, not a big political change. And Luthor had to be warging in any case, he didn't even make attempt to control horse or jump of it before the precipice.

[Pukisbaisals]

16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

For most of history, the leading Tyrells intermarried with Redwynes and Hightowers, with some younger siblings marrying Fossaways. The only known Crane marriages are to Florents, which the Tyrells tend to shy away from.

Crane could be Luthor's mom. In this case Meredyth could be second cousin to Margaery, o first cousin once removed. But of course, it's only a speculation.

[Pukisbaisals]

16 hours ago, White Ravens said:

GRRM goes to some length to establish that skinchanging is an ability found in First Men and that skinchangers were hunted and killed in the South.  Sounds like a bit of a stretch to have the Tyrells be secret skinchangers.   

I have a feeling that skinchanging is far more common in Westeros than can be seen from most of the POVs. The killings you mentioned could be a good reason to keep these skills hidden. But there is another one reason for keep it secret - skinchanging could be very useful in games of thrones - for secret communication, spying, even assassination. But only if skinchanging is not common knowledge. Otherwise people will start to be wary of birds, horses, dogs and kittens.

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Pukisbaisals an interesting idea, and certainly a unique take on ol' Luthor's passing. 

I would really dig something like this playing out - the Tyrells potentially having such abilities would open up a whole heap of possibilities. 

Good shout with the Merry Crane association - a Crane marriage in the family tree of the Rose would certainly be fun, I've always wanted to read more about them.

Let's not forget the Tyrells have a blood link to Garth the Greenhand, who many postulate had both greensight and skinchanging abilities.

If one can go into the Weirwood net and more-or-less skinchange a tree, might they also be able to take control of floral life? Like someone skinchanging a rose in a field? 

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

are you sure it wasn't just bloodraven doing the deed. that seems to be the goto theory option after nearly a decade between books 

Tyrells can skinchange. It is known. They warg into roses to do some greenseeing.

[Pukisbaisals]

28 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

If one can go into the Weirwood net and more-or-less skinchange a tree, might they also be able to take control of floral life?

I've never thought about it. But really, why weirwoods have to be exception among plants?

In AGoT Ned feels the same about weirwoods and the oak:

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How long he waited in the quiet of the godswood, he could not say. It was peaceful here. The thick walls shut out the clamor of the castle, and he could hear birds singing, the murmur of crickets, leaves rustling in a gentle wind. The heart tree was an oak, brown and faceless, yet Ned Stark still felt the presence of his gods

and when Cersei came:

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"Why here?" Cersei Lannister asked as she stood over him.

"So the gods can see."

and when Varamyr died:

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He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

You mean Bloodraven warged in a horse and assasinated Luthor? Could be, but  why to kill Luthor? Mace become lord of Higharden after him, not a big political change. And Luthor had to be warging in any case, he didn't even make attempt to control horse or jump of it before the precipice.

because bloodraven is stuck in a tree and really bored so he messes with everyone. it is a far simpler explanation than a complex story with grey characters and human motivations. 

[John Suburbs]

9 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Crane could be Luthor's mom. In this case Meredyth could be second cousin to Margaery, o first cousin once removed. But of course, it's only a speculation.

Could be, but like I said I'd have to see more evidence to buy into this. But here is another thought: the marriage of Sansa to Willas Tyrell would have broken the mold of keeping the house limited to Tyrells, Hightowers and Redwynes. Certainly they will have heard of the Stark direwolves by now and maybe thought that adding a little Stark skinchanging blood into their family might be a good idea...?

 

[Pukisbaisals]

43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Certainly they will have heard of the Stark direwolves by now and maybe thought that adding a little Stark skinchanging blood into their family might be a good idea...?

Interesting idea. Tyrells are forging skinchangers' dynasty. If gentle Willas Tyrell is skinchanger, then choice to marry Sansa is probably his. He wants to share all aspects of his life with his bride. The problem is, Sansa is not only the key to the skinchangers'  house, she is the key to the North. Too many rivals.

[Pukisbaisals]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

because bloodraven is stuck in a tree and really bored so he messes with everyone

Oh, I see. That explains everything.

[John Suburbs]

57 minutes ago, Pukisbaisals said:

 If gentle Willas Tyrell is skinchanger, then choice to marry Sansa is probably his. He wants to share all aspects of his life with his bride.

I'm not sure I would go that far. Lady Olenna calls the shots in Highgarden. The Willas match was primarily to keep Tywin from getting his hands on Winterfell. He's already taken control of the IT, the stormlands and the riverlands, plus his hereditary rule over the westerlands. That is far too much power for a murderous warlord like Tywin and poses a direct threat to Highgarden, which has been the most powerful house on the continent for eons.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Oh, I see. That explains everything.

and people here seem to want an "explains everything" answer 

[White Ravens]

18 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

I have a feeling that skinchanging is far more common in Westeros than can be seen from most of the POVs. The killings you mentioned could be a good reason to keep these skills hidden. But there is another one reason for keep it secret - skinchanging could be very useful in games of thrones - for secret communication, spying, even assassination. But only if skinchanging is not common knowledge. Otherwise people will start to be wary of birds, horses, dogs and kittens.

I don't have the same feeling.  I will confess that I didn't remember reading anything about Rose of Red Lake until I read this thread and I put that down to her appearance being small (one sentence) and buried in a listing of the children of the fanciful Garth Greenhand.

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THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE - SOME CHILDREN OF GARTH GREENHAND

...

Rose of Red Lake, a skinchanger, able to transform into a crane at will - a power some say still manifests from time to time in the women of the House Crane, her descendents.

...

So, thousands of years ago Garth Appleseed roamed the continent and established agriculture.  One of his children drank a lot of bulls blood which made him very strong even causing him to eventually grow horns.  Another made a pact with the King of Bees and established beekeeping.  Another drove the selkies and merlings of the Shield Islands back into the sea.  Others invented chivalry or established wine making or drove the giants and the children of the forest from the Reach.  All of which reads like folklore and local origin myths.  One of those children of Garth's was Rose.

When I first read these books I was charmed by the Stark children and their journey to become wargs.  It was similar to familiar weirwolf stories but rather than the Starks physically transforming under the light of the full moon into actual wolves they merged with the consciousness of their wolves and experienced the world through their eyes while their own bodies stayed quietly behind.  All descriptions of skinchanging in the books work in the same way with the human merging their mind with the mind of their familiar animal(s).  Rose is described in her one sentence as transforming into a crane at will, which sounds more like what happens in a weirwolf story.  It's kind of like when Rhaegar Frey describes Robb Stark to Wyman Manderly as a weirwolf rather than a warg.  He doesn't understand wargs and gets their second-hand description wrong.  That is how I read Rose's sentence.  The skinchangers in this story don't tranform into other animals, they occupy or share their minds.