DCEU: Suicidal Insanity

[drawkcabi]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Wasn't it actually a continuation?  Didn't they sort of pick up the thread after superman 2 and just pretended 3 & 4 didn't happen?

I was exactly the right age when the Donner films were released.  I'd need all my fingers and toes and probably a few of yours to count the times I've seen those films.  Watching them today though, they don't age well.  There are parts that are actually a bit cringeworthy.

Here's the problem, while Kevin Feige and probably a few people on these boards might feel a great deal of nostalgia for the Donner films, anyone under the age of say, 30, just won't.  And, as I said, it's been tried and the results were not ideal.

 

No, it didn't feel like a Donner movie. Other criticisms aside, almost all the other incarnations of Superman in animation or TV borrow from the Donner film in some way, whether its the costume or the crystal-palace Fortress of solitude or the depiction of Krypton or the score.  Taken in isolation, these things don't amount to much but together, yeah, it's going to feel different.

It was supposed to be a continuation and technically it was, but for the most part it ended up being a rehash of Superman 1, but it still had me excited for where it was going to continue after that and very sad when Singer's follow up fell through and then sick and disgusted with what we got next instead.

Have to half way disagree with how the Donner movies hold up. Seeing Superman fly in a Snyder film feels like I'm looking at CGI, seeing Superman fly in Donner's films makes me believe a man can fly. 

Where I agree is I think the nostalgia factor doesn't hold up with many of the younger generation and I'm not surprised by any of them finding parts cringeworthy, where for me it's just more of the charm of the movies.

I remain adamant though that if whoever writes/directs Superman in the next movie can somehow capture the essence of Donner's Superman -the hope, the inspiration, the music - and just adapt it to the modern era it would be a huge success. I don't want to see a Superman changed by the modern world, I want to see a Superman with his core character intact reacting to the modern world.

[Jace, Extat]

I remember sitting in the theater for Man of Steel dead ass sober and leaving wishing I could kill illegal aliens.

[red snow]

They could look at the animated 90s series for inspiration too. It's a bit of a shame they had an excellent animated shared universe (predating MCU - although Spiderman and X-Men cartoons crossed over a couple times) but can't get it to work in the films. Guess the cartoons weren't grim and "realistic" though.

[polishgenius]

47 minutes ago, red snow said:

It's a bit of a shame they had an excellent animated shared universe (predating MCU - although Spiderman and X-Men cartoons crossed over a couple times) but can't get it to work in the films.

They're even building a new one consisting of films, based on the New 52, that's been quite well received yet still can't figure out how to transplant that into the movies proper.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

6 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

What Snyder did to Pa Kent is a war crime.

Do you mean kill him off with a tornado or make him interesting?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, drawkcabi said:

It was supposed to be a continuation and technically it was, but for the most part it ended up being a rehash of Superman 1, but it still had me excited for where it was going to continue after that and very sad when Singer's follow up fell through and then sick and disgusted with what we got next instead.

Have to half way disagree with how the Donner movies hold up. Seeing Superman fly in a Snyder film feels like I'm looking at CGI, seeing Superman fly in Donner's films makes me believe a man can fly. 

Where I agree is I think the nostalgia factor doesn't hold up with many of the younger generation and I'm not surprised by any of them finding parts cringeworthy, where for me it's just more of the charm of the movies.

I remain adamant though that if whoever writes/directs Superman in the next movie can somehow capture the essence of Donner's Superman -the hope, the inspiration, the music - and just adapt it to the modern era it would be a huge success. I don't want to see a Superman changed by the modern world, I want to see a Superman with his core character intact reacting to the modern world.

https://youtu.be/4KTwdr5aTT4

• Zoomy, supersonic pose while travelling at 1.5 miles an hour.
• No one tells Kal El to lift his legs; ever.
• Stick the landing.

A man can fly indeed.

That, "What color are my panties?" line will certainly win Lois another Pulitzer.

4 hours ago, red snow said:

They could look at the animated 90s series for inspiration too. It's a bit of a shame they had an excellent animated shared universe (predating MCU - although Spiderman and X-Men cartoons crossed over a couple times) but can't get it to work in the films. Guess the cartoons weren't grim and "realistic" though.

The one area where they absolutely drew from JLU was the action sequences.  This was coincidentally one of the most criticized aspects of the film.   I agree somewhat with the detractors on this.  The fight sequences in particular were a bit too kinetic; a bit too frenzied.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

11 hours ago, Fellaining Da Bruyne said:

I had a similar experience with Donnie Darko. The Director's Cut is terrible, and in some places it's ruined by nothing more than for example the music cutting in a little more abruptly during a particular scene.

However, as much as I won't dispute the power of editing, Suicide Squad also just quite clearly doesn't really understand the characters involved or the whole concept of the Squad. But even past that, regarding my original point about Ayer being unsuited for developing Harley Quinn - even his good films wouldn't make me pick him out as someone to deal with a Harley Quinn solo effort or Gotham City Sirens. I've said in the past, that should be far more the speed of someone like Dan Harmon or Tina Fey or, if you want someone with more proven action chops, at the very least an Edgar Wright or Matthew Vaughan.

Another example (that won't win me many supporters on this thread, but that's fine) is BvS.  This was a film that was clearly edited to fit within a certain run time.  The result was overly dark (literally) and frustrating to watch.

I think the ultimate edition is great, if a bit long.  Aside from having a story that actually flows instead of lurching from one moment to the next, the bulk of the added scenes were Clark Kent scenes and mostly scenes in daylight.  What you have is a film with a broader color palette and one that doesn't take place entirely at night.  The Lex Luthor scenes also  improved because there was more space and connective tissue between them.  

 

Edit: How Star Wars was saved in the edit

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

12 hours ago, DMC said:

The disparity in acting prowess between Routh and the actors that have played lead roles in both Batmans and all the Marvel guys - including Hemsworth, although maybe not including Evans - is a veritable chasm.

Agree to disagree.  I thought he was pretty good in that role.

[drawkcabi]

2 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Another example (that won't win me many supporters on this thread, but that's fine) is BvS.  This was a film that was clearly edited to fit within a certain run time.  The result was overly dark (literally) and frustrating to watch.

I think the ultimate edition is great, if a bit long.  Aside from having a story that actually flows instead of lurching from one moment to the next, the bulk of the added scenes were Clark Kent scenes and mostly scenes in daylight.  What you have is a film with a broader color palette and one that doesn't take place entirely at night.  The Lex Luthor scenes also  improved because there was more space and connective tissue between them.  

 

Edit: How Star Wars was saved in the edit

 

I think the edited BVS is a much superior film in that it now makes BVS a movie that makes sense plotwise. I still hate it though for the story itself and portrayal of the characters.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

12 hours ago, Fellaining Da Bruyne said:

Agreed with this bit here. There seems to be an insistence that new films follow the Donner blueprint in a way that doesn't exist for, say, any specific version of Batman (though the Nolanverse has picked up some adherents along the way). It's not the only way to present Superman.

MoS deserves criticism for its treatment of Pa Kent and for other carelesnesses that amplified and caused problems in a big way as the sequels went on but I thought in its own right it was a worthy effort that did some really good things.

I didn't have a problem with Pa Kent.  I thought Kostner did a good job.  Also, he's not terribly different from the canonical character. 

The Kents have always been conscious of the need to keep Clark's nature a secret.  In previous incarnations, it amounted to quaint strategies of not scoring too high in class or coming second in track and field.   The biggest difference is that they took Pa Kent's desire for secrecy and turned it up a notch or two.  

The scene in the barn with the Kryptonian ship where Jonathan Kent tells Clark the truth of his origins is one of the most touching scenes in any superman film.   The scene where Clark freaks out at school and Martha talks him out of the closet is right up there too.

[drawkcabi]

Seeing Zooey Deschanel without bangs and glasses made me realize how nobody knew Clark Kent was Superman

So true! 

[red snow]

7 hours ago, Fellaining Da Bruyne said:

They're even building a new one consisting of films, based on the New 52, that's been quite well received yet still can't figure out how to transplant that into the movies proper.

The suicide squad cartoon film was easily better and it wasn't a great film!

Yeah it took a while to get used to the new movies animated continuity but it's pretty good. I like Damian Wayne in them. Although sometimes confusing when they have the non continuity ones although they are usually obvious adaptstions

[polishgenius]

20 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I didn't have a problem with Pa Kent.  I thought Kostner did a good job.  Also, he's not terribly different from the canonical character. 

The Kents have always been conscious of the need to keep Clark's nature a secret.  In previous incarnations, it amounted to quaint strategies of not scoring too high in class or coming second in track and field.   The biggest difference is that they took Pa Kent's desire for secrecy and turned it up a notch or two.   

The basic idea wasn't a bad one but they handled it so badly. Pa would never have gotten mad that Clark was saving people, he'd have been concerned, and having him sacrifice himself for the fucking dog then forbid Clark from saving him was a shocking writing decision that should have flubbed the character- I mean, seriously, did he want Clark to go through the Spider-Man thing of blaming himself for the rest of his life?



 

 

2 minutes ago, red snow said:

The suicide squad cartoon film was easily better and it wasn't a great film! 

 

I assume that's the recent one? Assault on Arkham is a cracking little film I reckon, though it's not in said 'verse. I've not actually had a chance to see any of them yet, coz I want to watch them in vague order and no shops around here have the earlier ones now. So I've only seen Assault on Arkham and Ninja Batman (which is fucking mental) out of the recent/ish animated films.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

16 minutes ago, Fellaining Da Bruyne said:

The basic idea wasn't a bad one but they handled it so badly. Pa would never have gotten mad that Clark was saving people, he'd have been concerned, and having him sacrifice himself for the fucking dog then forbid Clark from saving him was a shocking writing decision that should have flubbed the character- I mean, seriously, did he want Clark to go through the Spider-Man thing of blaming himself for the rest of his life?

"Gotten mad" is a bit strong.

The dog isn't really relevant.  What is relevant is that in that moment, Jonathan Kent felt keeping Clark's secret was more important than his own life.  Maybe he was wrong.  Turn on the news today and tell me half the planet wouldn't be shitting their guts out at the news of a super powerful extra terrestrial living on earth.

[Darth Richard II]

My hatred for all things Snyder is hard to get across using mere words. Not to derail too much, but Sucker Punch should have landed the man in jail. I imagine that's what the precogs in minority report see flash through their heads before someone is about to commit rape.  Not to mention Synder is a big Ayn Rand cultist, so maybe he can re adapt Sword of Truth next.

[polishgenius]

12 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

What is relevant is that in that moment, Jonathan Kent felt keeping Clark's secret was more important than his own life.  Maybe he was wrong.

Yeah, but there were just so many better ways the film could have put that across. It's not the ideas I have a problem with, it's the execution.

[Darth Richard II]

Also per the unpopular opinions thread, hate Rusell Crowe and almost everything he's in, so that didn't help.

 

[drawkcabi]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

The suicide squad cartoon film was easily better and it wasn't a great film!

Yeah it took a while to get used to the new movies animated continuity but it's pretty good. I like Damian Wayne in them. Although sometimes confusing when they have the non continuity ones although they are usually obvious adaptstions

I just watched the Batman and Harley Quinn animated movie, as it's on Amazon Prime. It's gotten some mixed reviews and criticisms, especially for one scene in particular, but I loved it. Loved the Batman: TAS style, thought the jokes and references to other Batman iterations were cute, loved Conroy and Lester back as the voices of Batman and Robin, Melissa Raunch does ok as Harley, and

Spoiler

 

damn, Rob Paulsen can sing! 

The Don't Pull My Love/Hanging on The Telephone scene was my favorite part. Have had Don't Pull My Love stuck in my head for days and I don't mind!

 

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

The suicide squad cartoon film was easily better and it wasn't a great film!

God yes.

53 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Also per the unpopular opinions thread, hate Rusell Crowe and almost everything he's in, so that didn't help.

 

Come now. He barely got drunk or told anyone to "fuck off" in that movie.

I'm reserving judgment on the whole "Randroid" thing.  A lot of people like the Fountainhead. 

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

 Not to mention Synder is a big Ayn Rand cultist, so maybe he can re adapt Sword of Truth next.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, Fellaining Da Bruyne said:

Yeah, but there were just so many better ways the film could have put that across. It's not the ideas I have a problem with, it's the execution.

I'm not going to dispute that except to say that it seemed pretty straightforward to me, particularly context (the flashback is part of Clark explaining to Lois why she shouldn't out him).

It certainly seemed more comprehensible than half the stuff that went down in Infinity War.  Don't get me wrong, I am not even remotely interested in MCU vs. DCU fanboy nonsense and I am a fan of several MCU films; Black Panther and Civil War in particular.  I even thought Infinity War had a lot of great moments but come on... I'm to lazy right now for a spoiler tag.

But hey, $2 billion and counting, so what of I know?

Edit: Pa Kent doesn't really get cross with Clark because he saved some kids.  He's concerned about the hysterical soccer mom sitting in his living room talking about "signs from god".  That'd put me off too.