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DCEU: Suicidal Insanity

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I’m assuming you aren’t including WW in the ‘fringe characters’ definition? I agree that littleness known characters are better though as they are essentially blank slates and are much less likely to have people devoted to one particular interpretation of them

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I wouldn't have thought Wonder Woman had much of a following of fans below the age of at least 30 pre the movie. 

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I don’t mean comic fans as such, more your average movie goer (like me!) I’d say the major recognisable DC names would be Superman, Batman, Robin and Wonder Woman. I mean the very name Wonder Woman was something I would always hear used growing up in reference to, say, a mother who appears to do 10000 jobs for her family. I’d say she was pretty iconic

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I think there is a difference in that WW is more an iconic name that people might have heard of, but had little no actual knowledge of. They would have seen movies and cartoons of Batman and Superman, unless they had watched Justice League cartoons or the old 70's series I doubt they would have seen anything of her.

I would still consider her pretty fringe to most people.

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Posted (edited)

She wans't as well-known as the very-best known characters but it's a stretch to call her fringe. Like,  anyone with a vague awareness of that kind of pop-culture will recognise her.

However, she could still fit into the same reasons that more genuinely fringe characters are successful is that she never really did have a super-iconic mythos, so people aren't tired of it or latched onto too many pre-concieved ideas.That could hinder as much as help- her supporting cast ain't great, especially outside of Thermyscera, and her rogue's gallery is laaaaaaaaaaaaaame which was already a problem in the first movie and now they've gone with Cheetah for the second one, a character who I just don't get as a WW nemesis- but I think it did help create a buzz for the first in that having abandoned the cheesy Linda Carter trappings people were curious where they were gonna go.

Edited by polishgenius

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I think it's more that there are three total superheroes - Batman, Superman, and Spider-Man - which are incredibly well-known beyond any of the others. Even Wolverine isn't as well-known as those ones. That gives far less ability for creative interpretation simply because your built-in fanbase won't let you. You can't do Spider-Man without Peter Parker, without Aunt May. You can't do Superman without Clark Kent. You can't do Batman without billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne. 

But Wonder Woman? Other than her fake name, you can do almost anything. She needs her lasso, her bracelets, and almost nothing else is iconic. Where she comes from? What her powers are? Any of her mythology? All of that is pretty up in the air. 

And with Aquaman, you can virtually reinvent everything about him if you want. (and probably should). 

If anything, it's remarkable how much Marvel leaned on the actual characters and storylines that they did. Especially Cap, who could have been made far more gritty and serious than they did, and instead they captured really well the 'I can do this all day' vibe that is so iconic. 

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So Zack Snyder does this movie Sucker Punch, which advertised itself as an epic action-adventure film about a bunch of sexy, badass, Buffy the Vampire Slayer-esque heroines going on visually spectacular adventures. What audiences got instead was a meditation on the way that nerd culture sells itself as being so woke and progressive, but is really, in some ways, as exploitative as the patriarchal structures that it criticizes. The title was just the icing on the cake. Literally his sucker punch to the audience.

After this he made some statements about wanting to adapt Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead. Since I'm sure nobody on this forum would ever waste their breath mindlessly criticizing a politically controversial book without ever having read it, I'm sure I don't need to go over the plot of The Fountainhead. But I'll just restate that the point Rand was trying to make was that sometimes an artist would rather see a passion project destroyed than brought to fruition incomplete or poorly done. Put in a pin in that for  second.

So a few years later WB studios gives Snyder full creative control over their expanded superhero universe, and say what you want for the man's vision thereof (and I have), he did make a genuine attempt at doing something new with the material, something that was meant to challenge the audience's own sensibilities and lexical associations with these iconic characters. In a kind of sense the way that the studio interfered and micromanaged the project can be used as a case study of the way blockbuster culture in general has stifled individual creativity in Hollywood.

Anyway, despite the promise of full control, the studio hacks the film into something completely unrecognizable, and a project which would have been challenging for audiences even if done correctly, basically devolves into a dumpster fire. The critics rip Batman V. Superman into little bloody pieces, completely misunderstand the point Snyder was going for (which they can't be blamed for since the film flew right past that point regardless), and a bunch of the big name actors refuse to play ball with the media.

Then, in the wake of a personal tragedy that finally forces him to step down from the project, Snyder hand picks not only the top director of the rival franchise that BVS was trying to deconstruct, but the man whose most famous work, more than perhaps any other in recent memory, embodies the type of exploitative nerd culture that Snyder expressed such contempt for in Sucker Punch. One could almost say he blew up his own project in the most visually spectacular way possible when he finally realized it would never be what he wanted it to.

Now Snyder is going to be adapting The Fountainhead. Life is funny sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

So Zack Snyder does this movie Sucker Punch, which advertised itself as an epic action-adventure film about a bunch of sexy, badass, Buffy the Vampire Slayer-esque heroines going on visually spectacular adventures. What audiences got instead was a meditation on the way that nerd culture sells itself as being so woke and progressive, but is really, in some ways, as exploitative as the patriarchal structures that it criticizes. The title was just the icing on the cake. Literally his sucker punch to the audience.

After this he made some statements about wanting to adapt Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead. Since I'm sure nobody on this forum would ever waste their breath mindlessly criticizing a politically controversial book without ever having read it, I'm sure I don't need to go over the plot of The Fountainhead. But I'll just restate that the point Rand was trying to make was that sometimes an artist would rather see a passion project destroyed than brought to fruition incomplete or poorly done. Put in a pin in that for  second.

So a few years later WB studios gives Snyder full creative control over their expanded superhero universe, and say what you want for the man's vision thereof (and I have), he did make a genuine attempt at doing something new with the material, something that was meant to challenge the audience's own sensibilities and lexical associations with these iconic characters. In a kind of sense the way that the studio interfered and micromanaged the project can be used as a case study of the way blockbuster culture in general has stifled individual creativity in Hollywood.

Anyway, despite the promise of full control, the studio hacks the film into something completely unrecognizable, and a project which would have been challenging for audiences even if done correctly, basically devolves into a dumpster fire. The critics rip Batman V. Superman into little bloody pieces, completely misunderstand the point Snyder was going for (which they can't be blamed for since the film flew right past that point regardless), and a bunch of the big name actors refuse to play ball with the media.

Then, in the wake of a personal tragedy that finally forces him to step down from the project, Snyder hand picks not only the top director of the rival franchise that BVS was trying to deconstruct, but the man whose most famous work, more than perhaps any other in recent memory, embodies the type of exploitative nerd culture that Snyder expressed such contempt for in Sucker Punch. One could almost say he blew up his own project in the most visually spectacular way possible when he finally realized it would never be what he wanted it to.

Now Snyder is going to be adapting The Fountainhead. Life is funny sometimes.

Or he's a useless hack.

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24 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Or he's a useless hack.

Not really sure why you quoted me here. My point was that Snyder's professional career has kind of paralleled a story he's been obsessed with for years, which he is now adapting. Which bit was this comment directed at?

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4 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Not really sure why you quoted me here. My point was that Snyder's professional career has kind of paralleled a story he's been obsessed with for years, which he is now adapting. Which bit was this comment directed at?

There's no point to my comment. Because there's no point to Zach Snyder.

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I'd guess that the vast majority of the audience has almost no knowledge of Wonder Woman before the movie arrived, outside of her name and what she looked like. If you asked them what her backstory was, her powers, who her enemies were or even love interest, I doubt you'd get much back. Yeah maybe that is a positive for DC as they get more freedom to do what they want with the character. 

I guess what I'm saying is that her character and backstory are probably well down the list of reasons the movie did well. Far more important was the buzz around the movie, what the movie represented and the positive media it garnered. 

I mean did anyone know anything about Aquaman before last year? Jason Momoa looking pretty has done more for that movie than any interest people have in the character of Aquaman. Nobody was calling out for an Aquaman movie. 

 

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6 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

There's no point to my comment. Because there's no point to Zach Snyder.

Ah, my bad. I thought you were expressing an original thought. Sorry about that.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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1 minute ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Ah, my bad. I thought you expressing an original thought. Sorry about that.

Hey no problem.

I just don't have access to whatever emotional cache from which these Zack Snyder apologist thoughts originate. That's clearly my failing, please don't feel bad on my account.

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The gist of your point, LGC, appears to be that what appears to most people to be Snyder being superficial as all hell is somehow some sort of subtle commentary. But you should really consider the alternative possibility that Snyder simply isn't very good at substance.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

The gist of your point, LGC, appears to be that what appears to most people to be Snyder being superficial as all hell is somehow some sort of subtle commentary. But you should really consider the alternative possibility that Snyder simply isn't very good at substance.

Lol, is that the "gist of my point"? 

Anyway, could one of you please point out where I said anything like that? I don't think I ever made a single comment about the substance of any of his films in relation to his directing style or anything like that. Unless you're referring to my thoughts on Sucker Punch, but I'm far from the first person to have made that observation that the film was a fairly passive aggressive swipe at nerd culture. 

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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7 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Lol, is that the "gist of my point"? 

Anyway, could one of you please point out where I said anything like that? I don't think I ever made a single comment about the substance of any of his films in relation to his directing style or anything like that. Unless you're referring to my thoughts on Sucker Punch, but I'm far from the first person to have made that observation that the film was a fairly passive aggressive swipe at nerd culture. 

I think the 'gist' of what your saying appears to simply give Snyder far more credit for his artistic thinking than he deserves. 

My take is that Snyder is a visual director, completely obsessed with 'moments' over character and storytelling. Batman vs Superman, Watchmen, 300 etc are all movies that revolve around specific 'moments', a cool scene that can be played in slow motion and seem iconic.

Whatever the behind the scenes issues with the movie, the movie is filled with many of Synder's general errors and peculiarities that I'm not sure you can lay the blame on studio hacks for. 

And this is from someone who actually really liked Man of Steel.

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17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think the 'gist' of what your saying appears to simply give Snyder far more credit for his artistic thinking than he deserves. 

Whatever the behind the scenes issues with the movie, the movie is filled with many of Synder's general errors and peculiarities that I'm not sure you can lay the blame on studio hacks for. .

See, i didn't actually give him any credit for anything though. I said that he tried and failed to accomplish something, and that the way he walked from the project kind of mirrors the end of the Fountainhead.

I do find it interesting that what I said was touted as "defending" Snyder, when I really made no reference whatsoever to any previous comments or criticisms on the man. It seems like anything other than "thing bad" in reference to these movies garners this kind of reaction though, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Quote

My take is that Snyder is a visual director, completely obsessed with 'moments' over character and storytelling. Batman vs Superman, Watchmen, 300 etc are all movies that revolve around specific 'moments', a cool scene that can be played in slow motion and seem iconic.

What an insightful observation. I have never heard that about him before. 

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Well, you were also saying that Snyder 'did something new with the material', but I took it as read that part should be ignored, since in fact he seems mostly to have been trying to imitate classic comics he liked (but also that he apparently didn't understand what made them work).

You also appear to have consumed the Kool-Aid that says that the 'real' BvS was a masterpiece, but there's no point engaging with that, since you're talking about a hypothetical film that exists in your mind and it simply isn't possible for anyone to argue against that.

Taking those two things aside, the rest as I understand it is a hypothesis, based on a film that to be fair I haven't seen, saying that the end result of BvS was intentionally 'blown up' by Snyder in order to make a subtle commentary about nerd culture. But nothing I know about Snyder suggests he's capable of that kind of depth. I'm suggesting that the alternative interpretation is that Snyder simply picked a successor he thought was suitable, and that the mythical Snyder version of BvS would not have had any more substance, because Snyder doesn't really do substance.

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16 minutes ago, mormont said:

 You also appear to have consumed the Kool-Aid that says that the 'real' BvS was a masterpiece, but there's no point engaging with that, since you're talking about a hypothetical film that exists in your mind and it simply isn't possible for anyone to argue against that.

I have no idea what the fuck any of this bit means.

Quote

Taking those two things aside, the rest as I understand it is a hypothesis, based on a film that to be fair I haven't seen, saying that the end result of BvS was intentionally 'blown up' by Snyder in order to make a subtle commentary about nerd culture.

Not what I said at all. I think the last line of that post actually made it kind of clear that I was commenting on the way life can imitate art beyond any control that we have.

Quote

But nothing I know about Snyder suggests he's capable of that kind of depth.

Forgive me if I'm not blown away by the depths of knowledge implied in this statement. I mean, you just said you haven't seen the movie that I was basing a lot of my point on. Do you actually know anything about Zach Snyder, or are you just parroting the popular wisdom that's bandied about and repeated on every movie podcast? 

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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