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Twinfoil: "Lanns the Clever" and Others


hiemal

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"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."
"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate."

ASoS

Dualities and dichotomies of various sorts are recurring theme in ASoIaF, starting strong with Ice and Fire right there in the title. We have dualities in opposition and in synthesis. We have false dichotomies that bleed  into grays and of course we have many, many (like albinism, perhaps more than "normal" genetics would account for?) cases of twins- fraternal and identical- but no triplets or onwards that I am aware of. We have House who lives in the Twins and the song "Two Hearts that Beat as One". And within those groups of siblings we have many relationships embodying the various types of dualities already mentioned.

So... bring me your tinfoil and your theories on twins. A couple to get things started:

Lanns the Clever- I think the founder of House Lannister may actually been a set of twin siblings who would pose as one to take advantage of people. We have some reason to suspect that twins are not uncommon in that House, and the idea of twins impersonating each other is brought up by Cersei but never really utilized fully, IMHO. This is my shameless attempt to rectify that and I admit I have no real reason to believe we will ever know if my hunch is right- it is sparkly, though, ain't it?

 

Amethyst Empress and Bloodstone Emperor=twins- Pretty self-explanatory. I think they were a set of twins exactly like Cersei and Jaimie, and that of them was born Azor Ahai. AE "dies" in chilbirth and is reborn as Night's Queen. BSE becomes R'hlorr and the Ice and Fire from the Song become not just opposing dualities, but twins whose synthesis is Azor Ahai. The Others and Dragonriders could be cousins, of sorts.

 

One of the ideas I've kicked around regarding dragons and souls is that the dragon/rider is originally created by twinning- one twin lives and the other is absorbed and their soul transferred to the dragon egg- possibly even after the survivor is born accounting the custom of placing eggs in Targaryen nurseries and possibly for the occasional stillborn monstrosity?. It's not my favorite- I'm currently leaning towards Targ souls in general returning as dragons by way of the R'hlorrian version of the Weirnet, the Firenet- possibly by a non-linear timeframe, so that Aerion Brightflame may indeed have been transformed into a dragon, just not in the fashion he envisioned.

 

So- what have I missed? Any secret twins, or evil twins (or good twins)? Twins seperated at birth? Any other good tropes I've forgotten? I definitely feel like there's something I'm missing...

 

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8 hours ago, hiemal said:

        

          Lanns the Clever- I think the founder of House Lannister may actually been a set of twin siblings who would pose as one to take advantage of people. We have some reason to suspect that twins are not uncommon in that House, and the idea of twins impersonating each other is brought up by Cersei but never really utilized fully, IMHO. This is my shameless attempt to rectify that and I admit I have no real reason to believe we will ever know if my hunch is right- it is sparkly, though, ain't it?

 

 

       They could appear in two places at the same time, now that's clever. A very nice theory! Too bad only one of them took credit and made it into legend :D

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8 hours ago, hiemal said:

Lanns the Clever- I think the founder of House Lannister may actually been a set of twin siblings who would pose as one to take advantage of people. We have some reason to suspect that twins are not uncommon in that House, and the idea of twins impersonating each other is brought up by Cersei but never really utilized fully, IMHO. This is my shameless attempt to rectify that and I admit I have no real reason to believe we will ever know if my hunch is right- it is sparkly, though, ain't it?

I noticed that the two-faced/twin/opposing faces thing runs deep with the Lannisters. I suspect that Tyrion is also a twin being a chimera of the child of Aerys and the child of Tywin which is especially rich if one's aware of Tywin's history with Aerys.

 

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Olenna Tyrell has twin guardsmen named Erryk and Arryk, whom she refers to as "Left and Right" because she cannot tell them apart. (Storm, Chap. 6, Sansa I)

She also has twin grandsons, Ser Horas and Ser Hobber Redwyne.

Historically, there are the Cargill twins, Arryk and Erryk, who were on opposite sides during the Dance of the Dragons.

Your idea about this duality embodied in two people but reaching fulfillment when they are unified - through birth of a child or absorption of the twin or maybe through a magical union of some kind - is something I've been exploring, too. I think Dunk & Egg complete each other. Bran & Hodor, maybe Brienne and Pod, Tyrion and Bronn.

Maybe skinchangers and dragonriders achieve this sense of completion through their companion animals, as you point out. Varamyr doesn't express much of a sense of completion when he describes skinchanging, though. He always seems to want something more.

Then there are characters such as Morna White Mask. She offers to be a man or a woman when she meets Jon Snow. Does she embody that duality similar to the pairs you cited in the OP?

 

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Cersei and Jaime are pretty exceptional; they feel like they are one being already:

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[Cersei] "I need you. I need my other half.... You are me, I am you. I need you with me. In me. Please, Jaime, please." (AFFC)

Both were described as half a god, so together they made a whole god - the synthesis is ready made. Now they're falling apart, I haven't a clue what's happening to their joint identity - she was the only light in the world, and Jaime's left in the dark. Sounds wrong, somehow.

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14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I noticed that the two-faced/twin/opposing faces thing runs deep with the Lannisters. I suspect that Tyrion is also a twin being a chimera of the child of Aerys and the child of Tywin which is especially rich if one's aware of Tywin's history with Aerys.

 

That would be interesting.

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10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

Cersei and Jaime are pretty exceptional; they feel like they are one being already:

Both were described as half a god, so together they made a whole god - the synthesis is ready made. Now they're falling apart, I haven't a clue what's happening to their joint identity - she was the only light in the world, and Jaime's left in the dark. Sounds wrong, somehow.

The Stranger?

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

Olenna Tyrell has twin guardsmen named Erryk and Arryk, whom she refers to as "Left and Right" because she cannot tell them apart. (Storm, Chap. 6, Sansa I)

She also has twin grandsons, Ser Horas and Ser Hobber Redwyne.

Historically, there are the Cargill twins, Arryk and Erryk, who were on opposite sides during the Dance of the Dragons.

Your idea about this duality embodied in two people but reaching fulfillment when they are unified - through birth of a child or absorption of the twin or maybe through a magical union of some kind - is something I've been exploring, too. I think Dunk & Egg complete each other. Bran & Hodor, maybe Brienne and Pod, Tyrion and Bronn.

Maybe skinchangers and dragonriders achieve this sense of completion through their companion animals, as you point out. Varamyr doesn't express much of a sense of completion when he describes skinchanging, though. He always seems to want something more.

 

I don't think skinchangers in general have the same kind of innate soul bond as dragonriders because there are fewer souls going through the Firenet? I think the pool of available souls for dragons is confined pretty much to other dragonriders by design.

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Then there are characters such as Morna White Mask. She offers to be a man or a woman when she meets Jon Snow. Does she embody that duality similar to the pairs you cited in the OP?

 

One of the dualities at least. She seems like a Stranger analog?

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I keep bringing up the Stranger, btw, because I forgot to mention in the OP that I suspect that the Stranger might be a memory of the AE and BSE's union, with the other members of the Seven being rounded out by previous gemstone Emperors.

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5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

David bowie as Nicola Tesla. That is all you really need to know. Go watch it 
It is all about magic, and how that magic is delivered

'Nuff said.

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53 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The Stranger?

Why not? If Jaime is half a corpse, half a god, then if you double him up you'd get 100% corpse, 100% god.

Doesn't Jaime say that he thought Cersei was the Maiden, but all the time she was the Stranger? Fits nicely.

But I was thinking originally they'd be like Apollo and Diana, twin gods of sun and moon. It doesn't really work because they were both sun-like together, so maybe a sun god. But then, you'd expect the sun to die about now, and that's not happening either. Cersei is becoming moon-like, and what's happening to Jaime, I just don't know...

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Not twins, but Loras and Margaery shadow Jaime and Cersei pretty closely, and I wonder why. A pointer towards more marriages for Cersei, maybe?

Cersei and Margaery:

  • Married Robert/a Robert clone
  • Husband murdered by stealth; a violent death.
  • Both tried to control Tommen
  • Both imprisoned by the Faith

Jaime and Loras:

  • Considered the finest knights in the kingdom.
  • Brilliant jousters at a young age.
  • Became Kingsguard for the sake of their sisters.
  • Became Kingsguard at a very young age.
Quote

He's me, Jaime realized suddenly. I am speaking to myself, as I was, all cocksure arrogance and empty chivalry. This is what it does to you, to be too good too young.

ASOS - JAIME VIII

Both pairs:

  • Very beautiful.
  • Powerful family with ambitions to marry royally.
  • Incest/slander of incest (by Taena)

The major difference (apart from age) is hair and eye colour: soft brown instead of bright gold and emerald green.

ETA

And of course, it's been remarked how alike Loras and Margaery look - even more alike than Jaime and Cersei in the later books.

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They could be twins, Cersei thought as she watched them.... they were more alike than she and Jaime.

AFFC - CERSEI III

 

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not twins, but Loras and Margaery shadow Jaime and Cersei pretty closely, and I wonder why. A pointer towards more marriages for Cersei, maybe?

Cersei and Margaery:

  • Married Robert/a Robert clone
  • Husband murdered by stealth; a violent death.
  • Both tried to control Tommen
  • Both imprisoned by the Faith

Jaime and Loras:

  • Considered the finest knights in the kingdom.
  • Brilliant jousters at a young age.
  • Became Kingsguard for the sake of their sisters.
  • Became Kingsguard at a very young age.

Both pairs:

  • Very beautiful.
  • Powerful family with ambitions to marry royally.
  • Incest/slander of incest (by Taena)

The major difference (apart from age) is hair and eye colour: soft brown instead of bright gold and emerald green.

ETA

And of course, it's been remarked how alike Loras and Margaery look - even more alike than Jaime and Cersei in the later books.

 

I've always wondered if the Loras/Margery dynamic might have shown us how things could have been if Cersei and Jaimie had popped out  in different order- if Cersie didn't feel, at least as keenly, that she was being deprived of her "rights" solely because of her sex. Would she have suggested her brother shave his mane off, lay it at her feet, and put on a white cloak instead? Might she have tapped further into her potential as a human being or would she have simply remained a pawn all of her life?

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3 hours ago, hiemal said:

I've always wondered if the Loras/Margery dynamic might have shown us how things could have been if Cersei and Jaimie had popped out  in different order- if Cersie didn't feel, at least as keenly, that she was being deprived of her "rights" solely because of her sex. Would she have suggested her brother shave his mane off, lay it at her feet, and put on a white cloak instead? Might she have tapped further into her potential as a human being or would she have simply remained a pawn all of her life?

Well, she's not a pawn - she's achieved many things: Jaime to Kingsguard, misery of Robert, Jaime father to her children, and yet those children still heirs to the throne, death of Lady, death of Robert, fall of Ned, Lannisters in power, wildfire... And I'm beginning to think Cersei is not falling, but just starting to fly (probably not in a good way).

But how about this - if Jaime had been born first, maybe he'd be less willing to play the little brother role, less likely to follow the lead of his 'elder sister'.

So yes, might-have-beens. I'm tempted to throw Oberyn and Elia into the mix; I'm not sure how twin-like they were, but Oberyn claimed they were as close as Jaime and Cersei. Elia was wife to Rhaegar, as Cersei might have been. (It's a bit thin, I know!)

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20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Well, she's not a pawn - she's achieved many things: Jaime to Kingsguard, misery of Robert, Jaime father to her children, and yet those children still heirs to the throne, death of Lady, death of Robert, fall of Ned, Lannisters in power, wildfire... And I'm beginning to think Cersei is not falling, but just starting to fly (probably not in a good way).

She is not, and I think that her bitterness at the inequalities she faces is the fuel that feeds her ambitions. If she had been brought up differently would she be soaring or would she have remained grounded as a proper lion should?

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But how about this - if Jaime had been born first, maybe he'd be less willing to play the little brother role, less likely to follow the lead of his 'elder sister'.

Bah, I can't for the life of me remember the exact quote but someone remarks that Jaimie was born holding onto Cersei's ankle. Anyways, I agree completely.

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So yes, might-have-beens. I'm tempted to throw Oberyn and Elia into the mix; I'm not sure how twin-like they were, but Oberyn claimed they were as close as Jaime and Cersei. Elia was wife to Rhaegar, as Cersei might have been. (It's a bit thin, I know!)

Oh, interesting! That brings us to the triplets that have been missing. I think Doran, Oberyn, and Elia can be compared with Arianne, Quentyn, and Trystane as well as with Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danerys. And so then it becomes Cersei, Jaimie, Tyrion. Is the ideal Westerosi family 2 boys and a girl? An heir, a spare, and a maiden fair?

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