Sam in basic training

[Big P]

How do you feel about Sam's basic training under Thorne?  He's not a born fighter but a military order has basic training.  I just don't think Alliser could have given Sam an excuse out of basic training  because he didn't have any physical disabilities.  It would look bad to the other cadets to go easy on Sam.  

[Adam Yozza]

He didn't have to go easy on him, but likewise he didn't have to single him out. Under someone with a slightly gentler attitude; Leathers or Endrew Tarth for example; Sam, though not physically inclined, might have picked something up.

[Lord Lannister]

How Sam was treated is pretty much why the Night's Watch is a joke. It takes a teenage boy pulling strings to get the "radical" idea of having Sam, one of the few literate ones there, work as a scribe instead of being trained as one of many fighters there. Makes you wonder how many others didn't make it or are barely getting along, when they have gifts elsewhere.

[Roswell]

Thorne is the drill sergeant with a job to make him fit for duty.  Basic competence with weapons is useful for all the men of fighting age.  It's a disservice to Samwell to let him graduate without learning the most basic of fighting skills.  

[zandru]

Ser Allisor Thorne is a small, bitter man who takes out his resentment on all - ALL - the new recruits. He ended up at the Wall because he was on the wrong side in the previous rebellion, having stayed loyal to the King. His sword training method is a joke. Make the untrained boys slash wildly at each other, don't give them any help with their technique, and verbally abuse them in any way possible. He's really incompetent, and the Old Bear knew it.

Had Leathers - or Jon - been the arms trainer, Sam would have gotten better and gotten stronger, and gained some self confidence. He's not cut out to be a great swordsman, maybe not even a good swordsman, but he'd have improved his self confidence and abilities. Sam was a little better with the bow, and seriously, aren't bows a better weapon for defending the Wall than the sword?? The Night's Watch had a lot of archaic traditions, and the idea of swordfighting (at least they didn't joust!!) seems a holdover from when knights willingly took service at the Wall.

Of course, the best use for Sam was to take advantage of his reading, writing, and thinking skills. Sending him to Oldtown to earn a maester's chain was smart; thank you Lord Snow!

[Azarial]

In modern militaries there are two ways to enlist. One sends you into basic training, the other is for officers. Sam would have gone into the officer class, and this what Jon pointed out to Aemon (though, not in those words) So essentially Thorne was trying to train an officer, the same way you train a soldier even though they require different skill sets to do their jobs. Worse, even his training of people who would be good soldiers was bad. He never even showed them how to hold a sword properly. His treatment of Sam had nothing to do with making him a soldier, he was a bitter man who abused his charges. It's that simple.

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

 

Had Leathers - or Jon - been the arms trainer, Sam would have gotten better and gotten stronger, and gained some self confidence.

Thorne was Sam's 13th Master of Arms, none of them, with actual experience at the role, could improve Sam, I highly doubt Leathers could as well. There is nothing to suggest that Leathers would also not lose his patience with Sam as well, him being successful with trainee's who want to learn is much different to training Sam who clearly did not.   Jon does not think he is trainable, that is the whole reason why he goes to Aemon. He does not think that Sam will ever learn.  

Jon himself thinks that Sam is a lost cause on the matter of everything other than assisting Aemon, that even when pointed out most of the Steward's responsibilities (hunting, farming etc) Sam would not be of help. 

Maester Aemon was gentler. "Is your friend a hunter?"

 "He hates hunting," Jon had to admit.

 "Can he plow a field?" the maester asked. "Can he drive a wagon or sail a ship? Could he butcher a cow?"

"No."

 

 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Sam was never going to learn anything from Alliser Thorne because he is too much like his father. Sam left one bully and ended up with another. The two men are very similar.

Meanwhile, when Jon makes the decision that the Night's Watch needs to begin training with the bow, Sam isn't exactly hot for it, but he actually learns and he is even proud of himself and promises to keep practicing when he gets to Oldtown (enter the Sphinx). 

Ulmer of the Kingswood and Alliser Thorne/Randyll Tarly are worlds apart in terms of personality. Ulmer is nowhere near as scary as those two. 

[Bernie Mac]

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Sam was never going to learn anything from Alliser Thorne because he is too much like his father.

Thorne is not Tarly's equivalent at the Watch, Mormont is. 

Thorne was Sam's Master of Arms, Lord Tarly is not the one personally giving Sam the training, no Lords have that kind of time. 

 A dozen masters-at-arms came and went at Horn Hill, trying to turn Samwell into the knight his father wanted. 

Thorne is just the 13th Master of Arms that have not been able to teach the 16 year old Sam, that implies the problem is with the student rather than the 13 different trainers. 

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

Sam left one bully and ended up with another. The two men are very similar.

Are they? If you think they are similar because of their opinion on Sam then I have news for you, the vast majority of characters share their opinion on him. Sam is an oddball in their society, a noble who refuses to even try to learn. 

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Meanwhile, when Jon makes the decision that the Night's Watch needs to begin training with the bow, Sam isn't exactly hot for it, but he actually learns and he is even proud of himself and promises to keep practicing when he gets to Oldtown (enter the Sphinx). 

Yup, after he has came face to face with an Other. It took him to see the scariest thing he has ever seen, to endure such hardships that his father could not even dream up to make Sam have more confidence in himself and be willing to try. We even see that Sam himself has become a bit of a bully when he beats the shit out of Dareon for spending the money Dareon earned rather than giving ti to Sam. 

Sam hit him.

He did not think about it. His hand came up, curled into a fist, and crashed into the singer's mouth. Dareon cursed and his naked wife gave a shriek and Sam threw himself onto the singer and knocked him backwards over a low table. They were almost of a height, but Sam weighed twice as much, and for once he was too angry to be afraid. He punched the singer in the face and in the belly, then began to pummel him about the shoulders with both hands. When Dareon grabbed his wrists, Sam butted him with his head and broke his lip. The singer let go and he smashed him in the nose. Somewhere a man was laughing, a woman cursing. The fight seemed to slow, as if they were two black flies struggling in amber. Then someone dragged Sam off the singer's chest. He hit that person too, and something hard crashed into his head.

 

Sam, despite his protestations, has always been capable of being able to fight. It took the horrors of what he experienced over the wall to be able to unlock them. 

 

 

[zandru]

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We even see that Sam himself has become a bit of a bully when he beats the shit out of Dareon

Really? A "bully"? Fat, out of shape Sam lashing out in well-deserved rage against a much stronger, better trained younger man? And isn't this where Sam ends up at the bottom of the canal?

Also, we have the motive. A bully fights to flaunt his superiority, preferably accompanied by his toadies, ganging up on one or just a few victims. Sam was fighting for the literal life of old Maester Aemon, who lay dying and had been abandoned by Daeron. He was fighting for Gilly and the babe. Sam was by himself, alone in an establishment where Daeron was well known and loved, where Daeron had friends.

Sam was no bully. He was truly brave.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are they? If you think they are similar because of their opinion on Sam then I have news for you, the vast majority of characters share their opinion on him. Sam is an oddball in their society, a noble who refuses to even try to learn. 

I think they are similar in personality, yes. And I know that Sam is an oddball, so thanks for that. And I don't think being bathed in blood, being threatened or screamed at help anyone learn anything. I wouldn't say he refused to learn. Swords just weren't for him. He likes books. When he told his father he wanted to become a maester where his skills would actually be useful, his father had him chained. 

Randyll Tarly told Brienne she was in need of a good raping because she doesn't know her place. So yes, I think part of the problem lies with Sam's father. 

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Randyll Tarly told Brienne she was in need of a good raping because she doesn't know her place. So yes, I think part of the problem lies with Sam's father.  

Yeah, you've got to seriously wonder about anyone who thinks there's such a thing as a "good" raping.

I'd like to add that, just because Samwell went through a dozen masters at arms doesn't mean he's unteachable. My guess is that Randyll would choose M@A who were much like himself. Here, in the 21st, there would be lots of good coaches who could make something out of Sam. Probably never a great swordsman, but as I said earlier, he would have developed some muscle, more coordination, and more self confidence. He had to get all of this the hard way north of the Wall, but it goes to show that Sam always was more capable than he'd been told he was.

And Randyll never tapped, or even noticed, Sam's altruism. Sam fought to protect Gilly. Later, in Braavos, he fought for Aemon and "Gilly's" baby. Samwell never had the purely selfish motivation of, say Jaime Lannister or Loras Tyrell ("look at me! I'm the best in the world!!").

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Really? A "bully"? Fat, out of shape Sam lashing out in well-deserved rage against a much stronger, better trained younger man? And isn't this where Sam ends up at the bottom of the canal?

How on earth is Dareon younger? He joined the Watch at the same time as 16 year old Sam. Nor is he stronger, Sam is twice the size of him, he is going to be stronger even is he has rarely used his strength before. And Daeron was never a great warrior, Thorne disparagingly nicknamed him the 'lover' while Jon noted how he did not like getting hit.  To add to that Daeron was drunk, Sam was picking on an easy target. 

Why was it a well deserved beating? Daeron had been singing to make them all money and he was only spending the money he himself had made. Sam got angry and beat the shit out of him. Sam is the entitled bully in this situation, beating someone up for money is bullying101. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Also, we have the motive. A bully fights to flaunt his superiority, preferably accompanied by his toadies, ganging up on one or just a few victims. Sam was fighting for the literal life of old Maester Aemon, who lay dying and had been abandoned by Daeron. He was fighting for Gilly and the babe. Sam was by himself, alone in an establishment where Daeron was well known and loved, where Daeron had friends.

Where were theses friends when Sam was beating the shit out of Daeron. 

And I get that Sam did not like the situation they were in, but he also could have tried to find work, it was not really Daeron's responsibility to look out for these people. 

Everyone rightly thinks how unfair it is for Jon or Sam to be forced to join the Watch but they have no problem with a low born peasant like Daeron being forced to join and serve Sam. 

 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think they are similar in personality, yes.

In what ways. List all the personality traits they have in common. 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

 I wouldn't say he refused to learn. 

Of course he did, he would continually lie down and play dead in practice. 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Randyll Tarly told Brienne she was in need of a good raping because she doesn't know her place. So yes, I think part of the problem lies with Sam's father. 

Let's be fair about Tarly, he was the one who stopped her from being raped when she was part of Renly's armies. He has frequently warned her about the dangers a warzone has for teenage women with no protection - and he is not wrong, Tarly stopped her from being raped, Jaime stopped her from being raped and Gendry stopped her from being raped. 

Tarly is one of the few characters we have seen prevent a rape. Brienne herself when confronted with soldiers uses Tarly's well know prejudice against that crime as a warning to them, and they quickly back off. In life actions speak louder than words and Tarly's actions over rape should be more important than flippant words we hear second hand from a man Tarly has most likely ordered to go and protect Brienne. 

Tarly is also the only noble we see actually rebuilding in the war torn Riverlands, using his powers for the good of the smallfolk. 

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I'd like to add that, just because Samwell went through a dozen masters at arms doesn't mean he's unteachable. My guess is that Randyll would choose M@A who were much like himself.

Clearly this is not the case because he got so desperate he brought in warlocks from Essos to try and get the best out of Sam. It seems he very much thought of methods that were alien to him to try and do what was best for Sam. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

 

Here, in the 21st, there would be lots of good coaches who could make something out of Sam.

Certainly. But they don't live in the 21st century, they don't even live in the renaissance setting were learning was just as valued among the nobility as warcraft. Tarly is a product of the medieval era a time were they were not enlightened on the best ways to get the best out of people like Sam. 

It should be noted that Sam was famous across the Reach because of his cowardice, he was laughed off the Arbor after being beat by a little girl and it took the recruits of the watch 10 minutes to realize how much of a coward he was. 

There are no books on dealing with children like Sam in the middles ages, none of Tarly's peers would have suggested a softer approach. And Master of Arms would have seen their methods of being slightly harsher then the Master of Arms before see it work on other students. Sam is very much an exception to the rule. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

And Randyll never tapped, or even noticed, Sam's altruism. Sam fought to protect Gilly.

Not at first. It was Gilly who saved Sam at Craster's as he just wanted to lie down and die while it was Gilly and her sisters who made him get up and leave. Gilly saved Sam's life first. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Is Sam actually good at anything besides blocking the wind for the other men?  I don't remember how he did with the Ravens.  How well did he take care of the birds?  He's a good example of a walking calamity.

[zandru]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How on earth ...

I get it. You hate Sam. So you see situations differently than I do. There can be no meeting of the minds on this topic. No need to argue further.

Also, when I noted that we'd be smarter about Samwell in the 21st century, I wasn't trying to say that Dark Ages Westeros should have been the same as we are now, in the "enlightened" west. It was obvious to me, but another example where we each read something and get a different interpretation.

I like Sam and can identify with him. I know that not everyone else does. Let's hope this doesn't devolve into a "Sansa-Queen!" v "Sansa-Dumb Bimbo!" argument...

[Bernie Mac]

24 minutes ago, zandru said:

I get it. You hate Sam.

I don't hate him. He is a fictional character, I don't hate any of them. 

24 minutes ago, zandru said:

 

So you see situations differently than I do. There can be no meeting of the minds on this topic. No need to argue further.

So why reply? 

24 minutes ago, zandru said:

Also, when I noted that we'd be smarter about Samwell in the 21st century, I wasn't trying to say that Dark Ages Westeros should have been the same as we are now, in the "enlightened" west. It was obvious to me, but another example where we each read something and get a different interpretation.

But I was agreeing with you, in a more advanced age Sam's qualities would have been admired, but he lives in an age were noble men are expected to have strong will power and be able to lead. I think our age is better, but the reality is Sam does not live in our age. 

We only have to look at how Robert and the sons of Lord Karstark viewed Bran and thought he would be better off dead. It is a society built on strength and Sam being an acknowledged coward was seen as less than not just by his father or Thorne but by pretty much everyone. The fact that Lord Redwyne, a far more cultured ruler than Tarly, was disgusted about the idea of Sam marrying his daughter speaks about how he is viewed. 

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

So why reply?

Well, why not?

I think it speaks well of Jon Snow - and Master Aemon and the Old Bear - that they were able to accept Sam's unique strengths in a "manly man" world, although Jeor was constantly irritated by Sam's physical limitations and demeanor. Well, Jeor Mormont had had to learn, over the decades to do the best he could with what he got. He turned dregs and scum into a reasonably effective Night's Watch.

[John Suburbs]

Thorne was no prize, but neither was Sam. In all his years growing up he could at least tried to have learned some martial arts, tried to exercise a little more, tried to be the kind of man his father wanted as the future head of his house. Remember, Horn Hill is in a crucially strategic position between the Prince's Pass from Dorne and Highgarden. That means the future lord must be at least competent in battle, and even more importantly, a leader of strong-willed men. So all the things Randyll did to make a man of Sam may look extreme and unconscionably cruel, but there was a point to it all: he simply cannot allow his house to go to a wishy-washy milquetoast like Sam.

The same can be said for Thorne. Yes, his methods are extreme, and a wiser man would see they were not terribly effective, but there is a reason drill sergeants beat down your personality first: it's the best way, the only way, really, to get you to start thinking of yourself as a member of a fighting unit, which, after all, is only as effective as its weakest member. And Sam is woefully self-absorbed at this point. He doesn't even want to put the slightest effort into learning how to defend himself; he would rather just cover his eyes and hope it all goes away so he can go off and read or do whatever requires the least effort.

I wish I could invoke his words from that other version of the story that shall not be mentioned here, but it sums up Ser Alliser's motivations pretty well. His goal is to build fighting men and see that they survive some of the most extreme and brutal situations known to man, and if he has to weed out the weaklings in order to protect the group, that's what he will do.

 

[Tagganaro]

It seems to me it's made pretty clear that Thorne is a total joke who only has his job because he was knighted (something GRRM makes a further joke of through the Hound and guys like Amory Lorch, Clegane, etc.).  Thorne is not doing anything he does to prepare recruits for battle- he is taking out all his frustrations and resentments over how his life turned out on the recruits.  

And granted, I think it's understandable that Sam is really a unique case.  That point is driven home over and over again with how "craven" Sam appears to be to Jon and the other recruits.  But yeah, the idea that JOn has to go to Aemon to save Sam when the Wall is in desperate need of both literate smart maester-types and Lordly characters to help with recruiting/imaging is pretty ridiculous.  It shows the sad state of the Watch more than anything I think.

And it's also interesting that Sam is allowed to be treated so poorly knowing who his dad is...We know that Waymar Royce was essentially given a ranging command just because of his dad, you'd think Sam would get special treatment as well unless maybe it is well-known that Randyll hates Sam.

[John Suburbs]

It's also interesting that the man who tosses the "bastard" label at Jon every chance he gets is probably descended from bastards himself.