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Sam in basic training


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2 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

I can't place exactly where in the books he said this, but I'm quite sure I remember Mormont saying something along the lines of Thorne being appointed for the task because he was one of the few knights they had, and therefore the only halfway-qualified person that could be assigned, but he (Mormont) didn't have to like it.

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Regarding Sam's hopelessness: I personally agree with Jon that breaking men who are highly qualified for other positions... just not for fighting... is an exceedingly stupid thing to do. Thorne indicated, many, many times, that he would prefer Sam just die, which would have robbed the NW of an intelligent scribe.

Also, I think a lot of people are unaware of just what effect lifelong severe abuse, as Sam clearly suffered at his father's hands, has on a person. He internalized the lesson that he was a "coward," and when that's what you're taught you are from early childhood, you take it as a given, and then that's how you act. When you learn that you will always be a disappointment, you stop trying. And then you start looking for comfort, in things like food.

The fact that Sam can't even think of becoming a maester without feeling like he's being choked, even though that's clearly the life for him, shows that GRRM hasn't even scratched the surface of the depths of how abusive Randyll Tarly truly is. Randyll's worse than Tywin Lannister, even. Even the fact that Sam's a sworn brother of the Night's Watch who has sworn off his family doesn't stop him from being absolutely terrified of his father's disapproval, like a big part of him still thinks that his father has control over his life.

And those who said that Thorne and Randyll are similar, in Sam's eyes, and therefore Sam was never going to respond well to Thorne, are spot on. It's not about whether Randyll would train him personally. He still would have weighed in on Sam's training... after all, Sam was his heir. So the abuse Thorne laid on him would still be far too reminiscent of Randyll.

Mostly, I'm just in awe of GRRM, in who encapsulates almost every aspect of human existence so accurately in his characters. Including Sam, a very accurate depiction of a decent, intelligent, and really quite brave person, who's suffered lifelong abuse and has completely internalized it.

Great post. You said everything I wanted to say, only better!

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3 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

If the situation weren't so unusual (everyone, including the LC, going north of the Wall, there being a King Beyond the Wall leading all the wildlings south, the Others, etc.), Sam could have lived out the rest of his days attending to Maester Aemon, and then probably going to learn at the Citadel, and then continuing at Castle Black, without ever seeing battle. Castle Black didn't normally see battle... that was actually a highly unusual occurrence.

If Jon hadn't talked Aemon into taking him as a Steward Sam would not be for he'd be woefully under qualified and Aemon already had someone to see to his needs; which leaves Sam to do harder work. 

And yes, unexpected things happen; which when they do it'd be better for the recruits whether they're a delicate soul like Sam or one of the harder recruits, they need to know how to react to danger or pressure without instinctively breaking down.

Lives can depend upon Sam's hands.

Being the Maestor at castle black, would put Sam in the position of having to save a brother who suffered a wound in battle; and due without trembling hands. 

He needed to learn to adjust to a degree at least, to accomadate the needs of the order in whatever way he can; it shouldn't just be the order accomadating for him for his imperfections with him being asked to make no changes on his part.

Wildling invasions have happened before, and though they're not a common occurance when they do happen all hands need to be on deck.

 

3 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

I agree that it wouldn't do to let the other boys think that they can whimper to get out of their duties. But I recall both Mormont and Jon getting that message across without ever resorting to ridicule, demonstrating that it can be done. Actually, so has Dany. And Ned. And Tywin, at times. Really, ridicule is a very ineffective way of getting respect and results.

Jon gave Sam everything for his whimpering and crying.

Literaly, he threatened and bribed, and persuaded his brothers to simply accomadate Sam.

Got Aemon to replace his current steward with Sam and that someone is a person Jon would have to admit is more qualified for the position than Sam.

He if anything showed you can whimper and cry and if someone with power and influence takes pity on you can skirt the rules everyone is supposed to follow.

And yes I understand why he did this; Sam was helpless as a babe, and seemed a genuine good kid and Jon wanted to protect the boy-his intentions were noble.

Yes, charachters have gotten people to do their duty without resorting to ridiculing the person who supposed to be doing a task; but in a military order, such as the watch when a recruit seems to simply refuse to make any real attempt at getting with the program and whimpers and cries in front of the other recruits the person tasked with training new recruits would have to make perfectly clear just how condemnable such behavior is to the other recruits; and doing so leaves little room for sensitivity for the recruit(no matter the troubled past). 

And I don't recall Daenarys dealing with a follower of hers who whimpered and refused to follow an order and her having to encourage the follower into doing it. 

Nor Ned. 

Not to say your wrong.

What instances are you citing specificly? 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

s how unfair it is for Jon or Sam to be forced to join the Watch but they have no problem with a low born peasant like Daeron being forced to join and serve Sam. 

 

You mention Jon as being forced; that seems to be a small mistake, since I'm sure you know that's not the case.

 

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And I get that Sam did not like the situation they were in, but he also could have tried to find work, it was not really Daeron's responsibility to look out for these people. 

Daeron had announced his intentions to break his oaths. Sam hit him in response to that. 

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16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

s how unfair it is for Jon or Sam to be forced to join the Watch but they have no problem with a low born peasant like Daeron being forced to join and serve Sam. 

 

You mention Jon as being forced; that seems to be a small mistake, since I'm sure you know that's not the case.

 

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And I get that Sam did not like the situation they were in, but he also could have tried to find work, it was not really Daeron's responsibility to look out for these people. 

Daeron announced his intention of breaking his oaths abandoning the black altogther.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Daeron had announced his intentions to break his oaths. Sam hit him in response to that. 

No, he didnt. He hit him out of frustration about the situation he was in. Sam has never really had to fend for himself, the lowerborn Dareon not giving Sam all the money he had made pissed him off as he simply had no idea how to do the same.. 

We have seen both Sam and Jon 'break' the rules of the Nightwatch and it never trouble Sam. Though it should be noted, they are in Essos now, not in Westeros. The laws of the Nightwatch are not subject to the people there. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Apparently there was another Jorah-Jorah Snow. @Bernie Mac points out such. Weird I missed that. 

No, I was being facetious. Obviously in the original post I was referring to Jeor but accidentally wrote his son's name Jorah. 

 

 

 

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I can empathize with Ser Alliser's frustrations with Samwell.  Ser Lipid was the worst recruit he ever had to train.  It's not like Ser Alliser had much choice.  It was his job to get these men in shape.  If the Old Bear had wanted to remove Samwell from training he would have.  Flunking is not an option but he could let Samwell do his best instead of pushing the inept boy too far.  Helping the overweight boy lose weight and making him do push-ups before training with the blade is the better method, IMO.  It's not that I like Samwell's chapters but if we have to have a northern story line, I'd rather it be through Samwell's chapters than the boring Snowflake's.

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On 6/7/2018 at 11:51 PM, The Transporter said:

Thorne is the drill sergeant with a job to make him fit for duty.  Basic competence with weapons is useful for all the men of fighting age.  It's a disservice to Samwell to let him graduate without learning the most basic of fighting skills.  

It is a disservice and a dereliction of duty to let Samwell pass without a minimum level of fighting skills.  Ser Alliser was given a tough break.  It's like a coach who can't choose his players and he still has to get them ready for the game.  I'm saying get Two-ton Samwell in physical shape first before arms training.  Ease softie into the life of a fighting man instead of doing the immersion technique.  To use an analogy, get his feet used to the water before throwing his monstrous ass into the pond.

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Some (you know who you are) have consistently argued that the best or only way to train men to fight is to humiliate and physically abuse them, instead of teaching them actual skills. The Alliser Thorne approach, and supposedly what army drill sargeants did back in the early 20th century, or at least that's the Hollywood rendition.

But there have been more who disagree - and point out that Jon Snow was a better teacher than Thornie Old Thorne. Jon actually told each man what he was doing wrong, why it mattered, and the right way(s). He didn't call them by insulting and demeaning names. He didn't make the others gang up on his victim (unless he was specifically training in how to fight multiple men). And yet - Jon's students grew more proficient.

Remember, Jon had that talk with Donnell Noye, who set him straight. Jon was willing to listen to the older, albeit lowborn, man. It would not surprise me if Noye and others had tried to have "the talk" with Thorne shortly after he came to the Wall and began his career of petty revenge on his "lessers". But I'm guessing Thorne would have ignored it all, as he was An Annoited Knight, of Lordly Birth, and they were nothing - alley scum, criminals, bastards. He may have even worstened his "teaching" methods, just to show them.

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14 minutes ago, zandru said:

Some (you know who you are) have consistently argued that the best or only way to train men to fight is to humiliate and physically abuse them, instead of teaching them actual skills.

Is there a single person who has made that argument in this thread? Can you quote them?

 

In Sam's own words his father was originally 'proud' of him, it was only after years of his constant failing did he turn to disappointed to eventually disgust at his son's performance. There is no evidence that the 'humiliation' that Sam felt was how he was first trained, but these were later methods used in a bid for him to have some self respect and stand up for himself. 13 Master of Arms, not all of them were going to have the same methods but Sam failed to learn from any of them. 

And it has to be said, all the recruits were shocked at just how pathetic Sam was

"Why didn't you get up and fight?" Grenn demanded.

 "I wanted to, truly. I just . . . I couldn't. I didn't want him to hit me anymore." He looked at the ground. "I . . . I fear I'm a coward. My lord father always said so."

Grenn looked thunderstruck. Even Pyp had no words to say to that, and Pyp had words for everything. What sort of man would proclaim himself a coward?

Now in out society two things would be notably different; 1) Sam would not be in a warrior institution like the Nights Watch and 2) there would be more understanding about how to handle people like Sam. In their world there was none, just that Sam would eventually realize he could fight back (which is what happens, his beating off Dareon proves that he has always had the ability to fight)

The presumption that none of Sam's 13 previous teachers would be able to get the best out of him but Leathers, who has so far only dealt with people willing to fight, would be more understanding of one student in a class of 15-30 seems to be a leap. Leathers will have been trained in a similar way to how the 13 Master of Arms trained Sam. Expecting more from him just because Jon likes him misses the point of both their society and just how far we have actually came. 

 

And this idea that no one has tried to teach Sam skills is ridiculous. The Tarly's are men who guard the Reach from Dorne, they are usually the first into battle and from all we have seen from Tarly and his men they are both competent and skillfull at war. There is nothing to suggest that Tarly is hiring men to teach his sons, nephews, cousins and other members of his Household men who don't teach skill. It is an argument that does not hold up to common sense. 

Quote

But there have been more who disagree - and point out that Jon Snow was a better teacher than Thornie Old Thorne.

No, he wasn't. Jon's whole argument is that no one would be able to train Sam,

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. 

And he goes on to say that not only should be excused from having to pass but he should be given a steward job but excused from all the regular duties of a steward such as hunting and farming. 

 

If Thorne was the only Master of Arms that had taught Sam then this argument may hold weight, but he was the 13th and they all failed to teach Sam anything. 

And if Tarly was the only Lord who did not think his son was up to it then once again this argument may hold weight, but we saw the disgust and humiliation Sam received from the Redwyne's, hardly the most martial House we have seen, while he was infamous amongt the nobles of the Reach as we saw from his arrival in Oldtown and his conversation with Leo Tyrell. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Is there a single person who has made that argument in this thread? Can you quote them?

 

In Sam's own words his father was originally 'proud' of him, it was only after years of his constant failing did he turn to disappointed to eventually disgust at his son's performance. There is no evidence that the 'humiliation' that Sam felt was how he was first trained, but these were later methods used in a bid for him to have some self respect and stand up for himself. 13 Master of Arms, not all of them were going to have the same methods but Sam failed to learn from any of them. 

And it has to be said, all the recruits were shocked at just how pathetic Sam was

"Why didn't you get up and fight?" Grenn demanded.

 "I wanted to, truly. I just . . . I couldn't. I didn't want him to hit me anymore." He looked at the ground. "I . . . I fear I'm a coward. My lord father always said so."

Grenn looked thunderstruck. Even Pyp had no words to say to that, and Pyp had words for everything. What sort of man would proclaim himself a coward?

Now in out society two things would be notably different; 1) Sam would not be in a warrior institution like the Nights Watch and 2) there would be more understanding about how to handle people like Sam. In their world there was none, just that Sam would eventually realize he could fight back (which is what happens, his beating off Dareon proves that he has always had the ability to fight)

The presumption that none of Sam's 13 previous teachers would be able to get the best out of him but Leathers, who has so far only dealt with people willing to fight, would be more understanding of one student in a class of 15-30 seems to be a leap. Leathers will have been trained in a similar way to how the 13 Master of Arms trained Sam. Expecting more from him just because Jon likes him misses the point of both their society and just how far we have actually came. 

 

And this idea that no one has tried to teach Sam skills is ridiculous. The Tarly's are men who guard the Reach from Dorne, they are usually the first into battle and from all we have seen from Tarly and his men they are both competent and skillfull at war. There is nothing to suggest that Tarly is hiring men to teach his sons, nephews, cousins and other members of his Household men who don't teach skill. It is an argument that does not hold up to common sense. 

No, he wasn't. Jon's whole argument is that no one would be able to train Sam,

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. 

And he goes on to say that not only should be excused from having to pass but he should be given a steward job but excused from all the regular duties of a steward such as hunting and farming. 

 

If Thorne was the only Master of Arms that had taught Sam then this argument may hold weight, but he was the 13th and they all failed to teach Sam anything. 

And if Tarly was the only Lord who did not think his son was up to it then once again this argument may hold weight, but we saw the disgust and humiliation Sam received from the Redwyne's, hardly the most martial House we have seen, while he was infamous amongt the nobles of the Reach as we saw from his arrival in Oldtown and his conversation with Leo Tyrell. 

 

 

Sam has internalized his abuse. This is evident from the way he thinks about his father, and the way he thinks about himself. True, he says that his father tried, and that Sam proved hopeless... but this is coming from Sam. Who's internalized his abuse. And is therefore not a completely reliable narrator, when it comes to his own upbringing at the hands of his father.

Because he's internalized his abuse, not only will he make excuses for his abuse, but he fully believes that he deserves it. And he believes everything his father tells him. If Randyll tells Sam that he tried and tried and tried to make something of him, but Sam proved completely hopeless, Sam will believe it, and build his own identity around it. That's how it goes with long-time abuse sufferers. Randyll might even believe it himself, but if Sam's ingrained thoughts about himself are anything to go by, Randyll actually, most likely, started expressing his disappointment and disgust with his son when Sam was about 2 years old.

Which brings me to what you said about the Redwyne's attitude. There are three possibilities I can think of: either they met Sam, or they didn't meet him but saw him, or they didn't meet him but heard about him. In all of these cases, their attitude makes perfect sense. If they heard about him, what they heard probably came from Randyll originally, who would have primarily talked about what a disappointment Sam is. If they saw him... Jon's first impression of Sam is that he was the fattest boy Jon had ever seen. And if they met Sam... by the time they did, Sam would undoubtedly have already internalized everything Randyll told him. So he would have introduced himself, not as, "Hi, I'm Sam, I like to read and write and do research. Have you read anything good lately?" but as, "Um, hi, I'm Sam. Samwell. Tarly. I'm afraid I'm a terrible coward." So of course they'd be contemptuous. And this, in turn, would feed Sam's (false) belief that he is worthless. That's probably true of everybody who's seen him, heard about him, or met him, for his entire life until he met Jon.

I agree with others about the other 12 Masters at Arms that Sam has had. Randyll Tarly probably only respected, and hired, people who think like him. And as I mentioned below, that's precisely why they never succeeded... because anything reminiscent of Randyll Tarly was going to bring out the "coward" identity in Sam.

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Jon hadn't talked Aemon into taking him as a Steward Sam would not be for he'd be woefully under qualified and Aemon already had someone to see to his needs; which leaves Sam to do harder work. 

And yes, unexpected things happen; which when they do it'd be better for the recruits whether they're a delicate soul like Sam or one of the harder recruits, they need to know how to react to danger or pressure without instinctively breaking down.

Lives can depend upon Sam's hands.

Being the Maestor at castle black, would put Sam in the position of having to save a brother who suffered a wound in battle; and due without trembling hands. 

He needed to learn to adjust to a degree at least, to accomadate the needs of the order in whatever way he can; it shouldn't just be the order accomadating for him for his imperfections with him being asked to make no changes on his part.

Wildling invasions have happened before, and though they're not a common occurance when they do happen all hands need to be on deck.

 

Jon gave Sam everything for his whimpering and crying.

Literaly, he threatened and bribed, and persuaded his brothers to simply accomadate Sam.

Got Aemon to replace his current steward with Sam and that someone is a person Jon would have to admit is more qualified for the position than Sam.

He if anything showed you can whimper and cry and if someone with power and influence takes pity on you can skirt the rules everyone is supposed to follow.

And yes I understand why he did this; Sam was helpless as a babe, and seemed a genuine good kid and Jon wanted to protect the boy-his intentions were noble.

Yes, charachters have gotten people to do their duty without resorting to ridiculing the person who supposed to be doing a task; but in a military order, such as the watch when a recruit seems to simply refuse to make any real attempt at getting with the program and whimpers and cries in front of the other recruits the person tasked with training new recruits would have to make perfectly clear just how condemnable such behavior is to the other recruits; and doing so leaves little room for sensitivity for the recruit(no matter the troubled past). 

And I don't recall Daenarys dealing with a follower of hers who whimpered and refused to follow an order and her having to encourage the follower into doing it. 

Nor Ned. 

Not to say your wrong.

What instances are you citing specificly? 

 

Regarding Ned, Dany, etc., I was basing this on the fact that I can't picture them using ridicule, and yet they consistently get results from the people under them. I also know this from ample personal experience on all sides of the coin (as a person who's seen ridicule, been the subject of ridicule, not been the subject of ridicule, tried ridicule, and tried not ridicule)... ridicule is not a good way of getting results.

Jon didn't give in to Sam's whimpering in AFFC. Nor did he ridicule him, and he still got Sam to do his duty. Mormont also dealt with Sam's whimpering without ridicule, and still got Sam to do his duty (not particularly well, but he got Sam to go North with them, and to do his best). Mormont's handling of Sam is actually what I wanted to highlight before.

Thorne was never going to get anywhere with Sam, because Thorne's entire approach was absolutely guaranteed to be counterproductive. Jon knew this instinctively, and acted accordingly. It's also worth noting that Sam did try at archery later on, and was starting to get better, away from Thorne.

You have a point about lives depending on Maesters... but I think we can safely assume that Sam wouldn't get his healing link until he proved that he can handle the sight of blood. :) As for possibly needing him as a fighter... no, they really don't. If Sam had been inducted as a scribe off the bat, and only a scribe, and it were known that he's not in any way a fighter, they can simply account for that, and send him out of the way in a fight. Or, you know, they could work with him patiently, and get some results.

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he didnt. He hit him out of frustration about the situation he was in. Sam has never really had to fend for himself, the lowerborn Dareon not giving Sam all the money he had made pissed him off as he simply had no idea how to do the same.. 

We have seen both Sam and Jon 'break' the rules of the Nightwatch and it never trouble Sam. Though it should be noted, they are in Essos now, not in Westeros. The laws of the Nightwatch are not subject to the people there. 

No, I was being facetious. Obviously in the original post I was referring to Jeor but accidentally wrote his son's name Jorah. 

Actually, Sam and Dareon left Castle Black with money enough to get them to Oldtown... money that was supposed to get them to Oldtown, and Dareon spent it all. Not money he'd earned.

And @Varysblackfyre321 is correct; Sam hit Dareon because, after squandering all of their money, refusing to get help for Aemon who was dying, and purposely stalling until the ship that was supposed to take them to Oldtown was underway, then he announced his intention to desert the NW. I think you may have been the only reader who wasn't cheering when Sam hit him!

And what Sam did was hardly bullying. Bullying is easy. That's why bullies do it. What Sam did... assert himself... was very, very hard for him. Dareon was much more of the bully in this situation, taking advantage of the belief that Sam couldn't assert himself.

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Thanks, Katerine459! Much better than I've been able to say it. For a slight digression on sports training, here's a little cartoon essay from Slate:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/06/comics-essay-about-a-nerdy-father-embracing-sports-for-his-daughter.html

Note how browbeating breeds future browbeaters and the permanently browbeaten. And, I just have to add, it looks as if including women in sports has resulted in remarkable improvements for everyone.

As a personal note, the only sports I've had any involvement in were running and field sports on a K-12 level. These are the opposite of Little League, with its rage-driven entitled parents wrecking the game for everyone. In track, everyone cheers for everyone. There's no trash talking, personal abuse, and definitely no violence. But that doesn't diminish the kids' competitive spirits.

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9 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Regarding Ned, Dany, etc., I was basing this on the fact that I can't picture them using ridicule, and yet they consistently get results from the people under them. I also know this from ample personal experience on al

Actually we do see a lot of the charachters you've listed shame/ridicule those under them into obeying a direction; for exmaple Dany calls strong Belwas a baby in response to his moaning about her ordering him to seeing a cut he got receiving proper medical attention; Tyrion shames his troops at the battle of Blackwater; Tywin shames and ridicules his children for when they act in a way he doesnt like repeatdly.

 

9 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Jon didn't give in to Sam's whimpering in AFFC. Nor did he ridicule him, and he still got Sam to do his duty. Mormont also dealt with Sam's whimpering without ridicule, and still got Sam to do his duty (not particularly well, but he got Sam to go North with them, and to do his best). Mormont's handling of Sam is actually what I wanted to highlight b

No Jon didn't fair point. Still, there's a good reason for why Thorne or really any man tasked into training a group of boy and men for a military order would shame Sam's cowardice; the idea of shaming certian behavior and having consequences for ineffectiveness makes it less likely for other recruits to slack off. 

It is not always necessary to ridicule to get someone to follow an order they don't want to, true, but when a drill-sergent ridicules the  behavior Sam displays they do it most of the time for the benifit of the group. 

9 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

You have a point about lives depending on Maesters... but I think we can safely assume that Sam wouldn't get his healing link until he proved that he can handle the sight of blood. :) As for possibly needing him as a fighter... no, they really don't. If Sam had been inducted as a scribe off the bat, and only a scribe, and it were known that he's not in any way a fighter, they can simply account for that, and send him out of the way in a fight. Or, you know, they could work with him patiently, and get some results.

Or they can simply request the citadel for another Maestor willingly to go through basic training in self-defense and who doesn't grow immediately quesy at the sight of blood. This cant be a one way street where the order accommodate the indivuals short-comings with little to no effort for the indivual to change. 

And, no, you can't always  remove him from the fight because during a wildling invasion a (which is a distinct a possibility), a Maestor would have any value at the wall-to send messages of aid and heal the wounded.

In which case, Sam knowing how to defend himself and not breakdown and cry under pressure becomes all the more necessary-should he die it would hurt much more than a single grunt's death-its important every precaution be taken to insure he knows how to respond when alone; instead of giving up on improving him on this altogether.

9 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Thorne was never going to get anywhere with Sam, because Thorne's entire approach was absolutely guaranteed to be counterproductive. Jon knew this instinctively, and acted accordingly. It's also worth noting that Sam did try at archery later on, and was starting to get better, away from Thorne.

Jon doesn't think there's any hope to improve Sam all toghther. Sam tried getting with archery training but has skipped practice and never mention any real improvement on it.

 

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On 6/7/2018 at 5:52 PM, The Pink Letter said:

How do you feel about Sam's basic training under Thorne?  He's not a born fighter but a military order has basic training.  I just don't think Alliser could have given Sam an excuse out of basic training  because he didn't have any physical disabilities.  It would look bad to the other cadets to go easy on Sam.  

Samwell suffered under Thorne but he came out better for it.  He was so ill prepared for the wall and he needed to toughen up.  

On 6/8/2018 at 3:42 PM, John Suburbs said:

Thorne was no prize, but neither was Sam. In all his years growing up he could at least tried to have learned some martial arts, tried to exercise a little more, tried to be the kind of man his father wanted as the future head of his house. Remember, Horn Hill is in a crucially strategic position between the Prince's Pass from Dorne and Highgarden. That means the future lord must be at least competent in battle, and even more importantly, a leader of strong-willed men. So all the things Randyll did to make a man of Sam may look extreme and unconscionably cruel, but there was a point to it all: he simply cannot allow his house to go to a wishy-washy milquetoast like Sam.

The same can be said for Thorne. Yes, his methods are extreme, and a wiser man would see they were not terribly effective, but there is a reason drill sergeants beat down your personality first: it's the best way, the only way, really, to get you to start thinking of yourself as a member of a fighting unit, which, after all, is only as effective as its weakest member. And Sam is woefully self-absorbed at this point. He doesn't even want to put the slightest effort into learning how to defend himself; he would rather just cover his eyes and hope it all goes away so he can go off and read or do whatever requires the least effort.

I wish I could invoke his words from that other version of the story that shall not be mentioned here, but it sums up Ser Alliser's motivations pretty well. His goal is to build fighting men and see that they survive some of the most extreme and brutal situations known to man, and if he has to weed out the weaklings in order to protect the group, that's what he will do.

 

Thorne had a tough and thankless job to do.  In comes this craven boy who doesn't even bother to try.  That sets a bad example for the other students.  While I can say he was too hard on Samwell, going too easy on Samwell would have been worse.  

 

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On 6/8/2018 at 3:13 AM, Lord Lannister said:

How Sam was treated is pretty much why the Night's Watch is a joke. It takes a teenage boy pulling strings to get the "radical" idea of having Sam, one of the few literate ones there, work as a scribe instead of being trained as one of many fighters there. Makes you wonder how many others didn't make it or are barely getting along, when they have gifts elsewhere.

Don't forget that the training Thorne gives is a Joke and even Tyrion saw it. Jon also points out that watch is giving too much emphasis on CQC and especially swords and immediately starts archery training once he is LC. 

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20 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Actually, Sam and Dareon left Castle Black with money enough to get them to Oldtown... money that was supposed to get them to Oldtown, and Dareon spent it all. Not money he'd earned.

Nope, the money he spent was the money he earned. The money they were given was used up as Sam made the call to remain in Braavos rather than sail away and had already booked the passage on one boat which Sam made the call not to board.

"He has no strength." The captain had visited the inn the night before to see Maester Aemon for himself. "He is old and ill and I will not have him dying on my Lady. Stay with him or leave him, it matters not to me. I sail." Even worse, he had refused to return the passage money they had paid him, the silver that was meant to see them safe to Oldtown.

 

They were dependent on Daeron writing and singing songs to make them money

"No. Perhaps a sip of wine, though?"
They had no wine. Dareon had promised to buy some with the coin from his singing. "We'll have wine later," Sam had to say. "There's water, but it's not the good water."
 
 
and it was Dareon who, eventually, was paying for their board when the money from the Nights Watch ran out
 
"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. 
 
Sam was the one who spent the last of their money 

"We have no wood," Sam told him, "and the innkeep will not give us more unless we have the coin." It was the fourth or fifth time they'd had this same conversation. I should have used our coin for wood, Sam chided himself every time. I should have had the sense to keep him warm.

Instead he had squandered the last of their silver on a healer from the House of the Red Hands, a tall pale man in robes embroidered with swirling stripes of red and white. All that the silver bought him was half a flask of dreamwine

 

So the money that Dareon was spending was the money he himself had earned, it was he who was paying for their food and shelter at that point. 

 
 
20 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

And @Varysblackfyre321 is correct; Sam hit Dareon because, after squandering all of their money, refusing to get help for Aemon who was dying, and purposely stalling until the ship that was supposed to take them to Oldtown was underway, then he announced his intention to desert the NW. I think you may have been the only reader who wasn't cheering when Sam hit him!

That is how books are designed though, you are supposed to side with the POV character who gets to justify his actions. I have seen people cheer on Arya for murdering Dareon. People don't tend to care about the lives of the side characters. 

But Sam has it much better compared to Dareon. He gets the job he always dreamed of and he gets the girl, of course he is much happier remaining in the Watch. Sam also has a personal relationship with Aemon. Dareon is not and the laws of Westeros do not apply in Essos. 

All the readers think it is grossly unfair that Jon and Sam are stuck in the Watch, the same applies to Dareon who has been given the awful job of trying to convince more young men to become slaves for the rest of their life to the Watch, and to top it off he is later murdered by Arya. 

20 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

And what Sam did was hardly bullying.

It kind of was, he beat the shit out of someone who did not give him the money he had earned. Sam is far, far bigger than Dareon, who was also drunk when Sam decided to beat him up.

20 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

 

Bullying is easy. That's why bullies do it. What Sam did... assert himself... was very, very hard for him. Dareon was much more of the bully in this situation, taking advantage of the belief that Sam couldn't assert himself.

Dareon was drunk, how is he the bully in this situation?

Sam gets angry over the fact that Dareon had used his own money on himself rather than for all of them

"Don't go fondling my wife now, Slayer," said Dareon, laughing. "But if you want one of her sisters, you feel free. I still have coin enough, I think."

Coin that might have bought us food, Sam thought, coin that might have bought wood, so Maester Aemon could keep warm. "What have you done? You can't marry. You said the words, the same as me. They could have your head for this."

"We're only wed for this one night, Slayer. Even in Westeros no one takes your head for that. Haven't you ever gone to Mole's Town to dig for buried treasure?"

 "No." Sam reddened. "I would never . . ."

 

And not only does he take advantage of an inebriated Dareon when he beats the shit out of him, but he proves himself a bit of a hypocrite when he later sleeps with Gilly despite being outraged at Dareon sleeping with someone. 

 

 

 

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On 6/7/2018 at 6:51 PM, Adam Yozza said:

He didn't have to go easy on him, but likewise he didn't have to single him out. Under someone with a slightly gentler attitude; Leathers or Endrew Tarth for example; Sam, though not physically inclined, might have picked something up.

You know this is a reasonable suggestion.  Sam needed more time to acclimate.  But there is the problem of showing partiality in front of the other students.  I don't blame Alliser Thorne but if anyone can be criticized it is Mormont.  Putting all of that into consideration, Sam is still a young man with no physical disabilities.  It is unfair to get him out of the class just because he's too cowardly.  

 

On 6/7/2018 at 8:13 PM, Lord Lannister said:

How Sam was treated is pretty much why the Night's Watch is a joke. It takes a teenage boy pulling strings to get the "radical" idea of having Sam, one of the few literate ones there, work as a scribe instead of being trained as one of many fighters there. Makes you wonder how many others didn't make it or are barely getting along, when they have gifts elsewhere.

That is how you look at it.  I see it as Jon being partial.  He liked Sam personally and so he got a man with seniority and loyalty pushed out of his job to make accommodations for his friend.  That shows a lack of professional ethics in my view.  Sam needed to adjust.  I am not against giving him a little time as you would a slow student.  But Sam has no physical disabilities that could justify excusing him out of the training.

 

 

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On 6/9/2018 at 5:30 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Being the Maestor at castle black, would put Sam in the position of having to save a brother who suffered a wound in battle; and due without trembling hands. 

There is that potential problem down the road.  I do not think Sam will become a maester.  So the unfortunate patient will be spared that.  To be honest, I think even the citadel is too rigorous for Sam.  

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5 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Samwell suffered under Thorne but he came out better for it.  He was so ill prepared for the wall and he needed to toughen up.  

Thorne had a tough and thankless job to do.  In comes this craven boy who doesn't even bother to try.  That sets a bad example for the other students.  While I can say he was too hard on Samwell, going too easy on Samwell would have been worse.  

 

Exactly. No matter how tough Thorne was on his trainees, he's a kitten compared to what they would face if captured by the wildlings, or the Others.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Exactly. No matter how tough Thorne was on his trainees, he's a kitten compared to what they would face if captured by the wildlings, or the Others.

'Trainees'. All Thorne did was throw them in a ring with a pair of swords and told them to hit the other person. Jon was the one who taught his 'class' how to actually use a sword. Thorne was the teacher because he was a knight. That's it. Not because he was the best man for the job and not because he's a good teacher. As I said earlier, someone who would be harsh on the recruits but not single any one of them purely for the sake of it would have done a much better job with Sam.

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