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Sam in basic training


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2 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

You know this is a reasonable suggestion.  Sam needed more time to acclimate.  But there is the problem of showing partiality in front of the other students.  I don't blame Alliser Thorne but if anyone can be criticized it is Mormont.  Putting all of that into consideration, Sam is still a young man with no physical disabilities.  It is unfair to get him out of the class just because he's too cowardly.  

 

That is how you look at it.  I see it as Jon being partial.  He liked Sam personally and so he got a man with seniority and loyalty pushed out of his job to make accommodations for his friend.  That shows a lack of professional ethics in my view.  Sam needed to adjust.  I am not against giving him a little time as you would a slow student.  But Sam has no physical disabilities that could justify excusing him out of the training.

 

 

Chett didn't have loyalty in the end, and surely you'd want the best man for the job in a position as important as the Maesters scribe. Chett was a lowborn who barely knew how to read. Sam is highly educated, can read and write and do sums and is one of the most well read people at the Wall, maybe even in Westeros. He should have been put into that position the second he got to the Wall, not shoving him under the instruction of a brutal, petty, spiteful so-called knight until he breaks and is of no use to anyone.

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It's all well and good saying Sam should have been excused because he wasn't suited to being in a military order but he is in one at the end of the day and he got people killed because of it before the White Walker forced him to tackle his cowardice. You can argue against Thorne's methods but clearly Sam shouldn't have just been shipped off to Maester Aemon before being forced to adapt the needs of the Night's Watch because he still ended up in the field on the march with a military ranging and in turn became a burden, at the very least he should have been forced to improve his fitness. 

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28 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Chett didn't have loyalty in the end, and surely you'd want the best man for the job in a position as important as the Maesters scribe. Chett was a lowborn who barely knew how to read. Sam is highly educated, can read and write and do sums and is one of the most well read people at the Wall, maybe even in Westeros. He should have been put into that position the second he got to the Wall, not shoving him under the instruction of a brutal, petty, spiteful so-called knight until he breaks and is of no use to anyone.

Reading and writing is only one of actual tasks the scribe would actually do for the Maestor.

In most others he is actually woefully inadequate.

And Jon admits this.

And possibly the most well-read in Westeroes seems slightly hyperbolic.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

It's all well and good saying Sam should have been excused because he wasn't suited to being in a military order but he is in one at the end of the day and he got people killed because of it before the White Walker forced him to tackle his cowardice. You can argue against Thorne's methods but clearly Sam shouldn't have just been shipped off to Maester Aemon before being forced to adapt the needs of the Night's Watch because he still ended up in the field on the march with a military ranging and in turn became a burden, at the very least he should have been forced to improve his fitness. 

true

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4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In most others [Samwell Tarly] is actually woefully inadequate.

You go ranging with the brothers of the Nights Watch you have, not the ones you'd like.

The Watch is analogous to one of today's volunteer organizations, where the folks doing the work are the ones who step forward to work without pay or perk. Most likely, the "best" candidates will be off using their skills for pay, and lots of it. So the successful nonprofit manager (another unpaid volunteer) has to take this into account and do the best she can with the "talent" she has to work with. The Watch has one advantage over today's nonprofits: the staff can't just walk off the job if they get offended, mistreated, overworked, or bored.

Sure, it might have been good for Sam to become lean, mean, and good with a sword. Maybe it would have even been possible. But the story depends on his development from wimpy, frightened fat boy to responsible, protective, willing to work fat boy ... er, man. The transition and growth is one of the key stories in ASOIAF, and would not have been served had Alliser Thorne actually been competent at HIS job. And that's another story - supposed Alliser didn't have that bug up his arse?

Another theme interweaving in ASOIAF is that even fat people can have redeeming characteristics: intelligence, political skill, wide ranging knowledge, fighting skill. It's not politically correct just now, but it's a useful lesson.

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On 6/8/2018 at 2:04 PM, Azarial said:

In modern militaries there are two ways to enlist. One sends you into basic training, the other is for officers. Sam would have gone into the officer class, and this what Jon pointed out to Aemon (though, not in those words) So essentially Thorne was trying to train an officer, the same way you train a soldier even though they require different skill sets to do their jobs. Worse, even his training of people who would be good soldiers was bad. He never even showed them how to hold a sword properly. His treatment of Sam had nothing to do with making him a soldier, he was a bitter man who abused his charges. It's that simple.


Phase 1 officer training still teaches the basics of soldiering in the UK the same as phase 1 for enlisted men, and I don't think many other countries wouldn't have similar basic for officers either. An officer still needs to know how to be a soldier before he can be trained in everything an officer needs to know as well as leadership, if anything officer training is harder. You specialise in phase 2, and as the American USMC put it "Every Marine a rifleman". Sam doesn't even perform all the roles of a steward, he basically just gets a free pass because he can read and write and it shows when he has to be carried away from the Fist. 

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6 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

Sam doesn't even perform all the roles of a steward, he basically just gets a free pass because he can read and write and it shows when he has to be carried away from the Fist. 

I prefer to think of it as part of the story, which shows how Sam's new brothers still cared about him in spite of his deficiencies which have enraged so many here ;-)  Remember, the Old Bear was perfectly aware of Sam's limitations, but there was no one else who could handle the comm operations. Surely Jeor also hoped the ranging would help to make a man of "Ser Piggy." As it did. Although, even in Oldtown, Sam has a ways to go, and all of Ser Alliser's training (had he bothered to actually provide training) would have done Sam no good at the Citadel. Maybe Sarella Sand will help him with his archery skills.

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5 minutes ago, zandru said:

I prefer to think of it as part of the story, which shows how Sam's new brothers still cared about him in spite of his deficiencies which have enraged so many here ;-)  Remember, the Old Bear was perfectly aware of Sam's limitations, but there was no one else who could handle the comm operations. Surely Jeor also hoped the ranging would help to make a man of "Ser Piggy." As it did. Although, even in Oldtown, Sam has a ways to go, and all of Ser Alliser's training (had he bothered to actually provide training) would have done Sam no good at the Citadel. Maybe Sarella Sand will help him with his archery skills.

 

I mean sure of course it's part of the story but there wouldn't be much discussion on the board if we ended every topic with that. Sam is what the story has made him but it's still entertaining to have a debate over the circumstances that have brought about certain things within the story. 

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Sam Tarly has value as a human being.  But Sam Tarly is not prepared for life at the wall.  I don't know what his day to day activities were like at Horn Hill.  Who really knows.  Did he play house with dolls?  Whatever.  Perhaps mother Tarly sheltered him too much.  

Modern education tries to adapt the curriculum to the needs of the learner.  There are learners whom we consider Special Needs students and I reckon Sam falls into that category.  I think Sam could learn to improve his martial abilities but there are two obstacles to this:  Thorne's methods and Sam's cowardice.  

Thorne's methods are not ideal but he has so far managed to train recruits into passable warriors.  Most recruits won't become the next Q Halfhand but they can gain enough skills from sparring to give them a chance to survive a wildling raid.  Sam's cowardice is the biggest obstacle.  You need to have tolerance for pain and discomfort before you can learn martial arts.  Bruises heal and split lips can be sutured.  Sam should have manned up and tried harder.  

Thorne on his own cannot give Sam a break because the other trainees are watching.  Stome of those boys don't want to be there in the first place.  A teacher can't appear to show favoritism.  As it turned out, Thorne was relieved from having to make this decision.  

Sam can read and write.  That ability is useful at the wall.  But there are other standards to be met.  If that standard says every man of the watch must have competency in fighting then Sam must at least try to work up to that standard.  It's not even Sam's lack of talent that handicaps the watch.  It's his cowardice.   Very well, his weight can be accommodated.  His way below average ability to fight can be accepted and compensated for.  But being a coward?  There is very little room in Westeros for cowards.  Thorne could have tried to build his confidence and it can lessen his cowardice some.  But that is asking a lot from a man who almost certainly didn't learn to fight that way.  

Sam is the problem.  The instruction could have been improved but the biggest problem is Sam himself.  

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1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

I mean sure of course it's part of the story but there wouldn't be much discussion on the board if we ended every topic with that.

How true. Sorry!

35 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

...Special Needs students and I reckon Sam falls into that category. 

No, Sam is the classic nerd type. "Special needs" (unless I'm dramatically mistaken) refer to students with physical handicaps or severely diminished mental capacity. Being fat doesn't count. Sam is one of the smarter men at the wall, and one of the best educated. "Special needs", my arse.

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8 minutes ago, zandru said:

How true. Sorry!

No, Sam is the classic nerd type. "Special needs" (unless I'm dramatically mistaken) refer to students with physical handicaps or severely diminished mental capacity. Being fat doesn't count. Sam is one of the smarter men at the wall, and one of the best educated. "Special needs", my arse.

 

I think you're focusing on the way we'd use that to describe a student in a modern school learning academic subjects too much. Sam literally cannot swing swords with another person without breaking down when he reaches the Wall and Jon has to pull strings to completely remove him from training, his extreme cowardice and aversion to physical conflict and pain does make him a kind of special needs student in the context of martial training. He can be the smartest person in the world but if he falls over and cries at the thought of a few bruises then surely he could be considered as having special needs when it comes to learning to fight and potentially kill people. 

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I've not read this whole thread so apologies if this has already been covered.

Alliser has a mind as small and shriveled as his heart. If Sam can’t fight with swords, then he’s worthless. Jon who is creative and able to think outside of the box is able to identify that Sam is no fighter, but he’s fully capable of being an archer and as such orders him to practice.

Another example of Alliser not being able to think outside of the box is when he had the wight’s hand in KL. He waits, and he waits, and he waits for an audience fully knowing he’s being blown off and his evidence is deteriorating.

He could have been creative and shown the hand throughout the streets of KL, throughout the castle, to the KG, etc., and word would have spread to Joff/Cersei/Tyrion and he would have been summoned. But no, Alliser just waits in his box…

Alliser is a great example of why Westeros has spent thousands of years in stagnation.

 

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17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

Alliser has a mind as small and shriveled as his heart. If Sam can’t fight with swords, then he’s worthless.

we actually don't know if Alliser thinks like that, but he is not tasked with assessing what the men of the nights watch roles should be, he is tasked with making them competent in the basics. 

Sam is mentally and physically capable of being able to defend himself, there is no real reason why he should be excused from basic training. And Thorne can't really be doing it, very few of the recruits want to be there; if there is a possibility that refusing to even try to fight will mean a cushy position as a steward rather than being in harms way beyond the Wall how many would take Sam's route? 

 

Quote

 

Jon who is creative and able to think outside of the box is able to identify that Sam is no fighter, but he’s fully capable of being an archer and as such orders him to practice.

Not quite. Jon does not do this for the benefit of Sam, he does it for the entire Watch in his remit as the new Lord Commander.

Almost the first thing Jon Snow had done as Lord Commander was institute daily archery drill for the entire garrison, even stewards and cooks. The Watch had been placing too much emphasis on the sword and too little on the bow, he had said, a relic of the days when one brother in every ten had been a knight, instead of one in every hundred. Sam saw the sense in the decree, but he hated longbow practice almost as much as he hated climbing steps. When he wore his gloves he could never hit anything, but when he took them off he got blisters on his fingers.

 

Now two things are notable here, now that Jon is in a position of power there are no exceptions to people skipping training. As a trainee and Sam's best friend his argument was for what was best for Sam, now as a leader it is what is best for the group. Secondly this archery practice is after Sam's run in with the Other, this is the confident Sam rather than the Sam who just rolled over and died rather than stand up for himself. 

And the reason for archery not being a mainstay would be down to Mormont rather than Thorne, Jon is correcting a practice made by the previous Lord Commanders.

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Just now, Bernie Mac said:

we actually don't know if Alliser thinks like that, but he is not tasked with assessing what the men of the nights watch roles should be, he is tasked with making them competent in the basics. 

Sam is mentally and physically capable of being able to defend himself, there is no real reason why he should be excused from basic training. And Thorne can't really be doing it, very few of the recruits want to be there; if there is a possibility that refusing to even try to fight will mean a cushy position as a steward rather than being in harms way beyond the Wall how many would take Sam's route? 

 

Not quite. Jon does not do this for the benefit of Sam, he does it for the entire Watch in his remit as the new Lord Commander.

Almost the first thing Jon Snow had done as Lord Commander was institute daily archery drill for the entire garrison, even stewards and cooks. The Watch had been placing too much emphasis on the sword and too little on the bow, he had said, a relic of the days when one brother in every ten had been a knight, instead of one in every hundred. Sam saw the sense in the decree, but he hated longbow practice almost as much as he hated climbing steps. When he wore his gloves he could never hit anything, but when he took them off he got blisters on his fingers.

 

Now two things are notable here, now that Jon is in a position of power there are no exceptions to people skipping training. As a trainee and Sam's best friend his argument was for what was best for Sam, now as a leader it is what is best for the group. Secondly this archery practice is after Sam's run in with the Other, this is the confident Sam rather than the Sam who just rolled over and died rather than stand up for himself. 

And the reason for archery not being a mainstay would be down to Mormont rather than Thorne, Jon is correcting a practice made by the previous Lord Commanders.

I'll not be responding to debates where my words are pulled out of context. I'll respond if you edit your post accordingly. If not, then :cheers:

 

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32 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Another example of Alliser not being able to think outside of the box is when he had the wight’s hand in KL. He waits, and he waits, and he waits for an audience fully knowing he’s being blown off and his evidence is deteriorating.

That's Tyrion being the small, petty man that he is and blows Alliser off because he doesn't like him.  

Alliser and Samwell didn't choose to come to that wall.  It should come as no surprise that neither are the best fit for what they do.  

3 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:


Phase 1 officer training still teaches the basics of soldiering in the UK the same as phase 1 for enlisted men, and I don't think many other countries wouldn't have similar basic for officers either. An officer still needs to know how to be a soldier before he can be trained in everything an officer needs to know as well as leadership, if anything officer training is harder. You specialise in phase 2, and as the American USMC put it "Every Marine a rifleman". Sam doesn't even perform all the roles of a steward, he basically just gets a free pass because he can read and write and it shows when he has to be carried away from the Fist. 

Yes.  Free pass.  Basic training is that which every member of the armed services is required before they move on to their specialized duties.  There is OTC for people coming in with college degrees and other experience.  But they are still expected to have familiarity with weapons.  Bloodraven, Thorne, and Mormont have fighting experience and they are not expected to start off as a raw recruit.  They have proven to meet the requirements.  Maester Aemon was already a grad of the citadel when he came in.  He came in highly skilled and ready for his job.  Maester didn't come with only basic, general skills.  Samwell may be literate but he is not highly skilled at anything.  To claim that Samwell had good value right from the start is false.  Anybody on that wall can taught to read.  Jon basically screwed over a guy who had an easy job to make a place for his friend.  Samwell got a break and I can't recall that the watch is better served for it.  

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Just now, Barbrey Dustin said:

That's Tyrion being the small, petty man that he is and blows Alliser off because he doesn't like him.  

Alliser and Samwell didn't choose to come to that wall.  It should come as no surprise that neither are the best fit for what they do.  

Likewise here. You edited out an important part of my point. Please do not pull my words out of context.

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1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Likewise here. You edited out an important part of my point. Please do not pull my words out of context.

The message boards is a small place.  I doubt anybody interested enough to read our exchange will have too much trouble finding your entire post.  I chose to reply to a specific point to that specific idea.  

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11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'll not be responding to debates where my words are pulled out of context. I'll respond if you edit your post accordingly. If not, then :cheers:

 

That's perfectly reasonable. If you don't want to reply you should not have to.

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Just now, Barbrey Dustin said:

The message boards is a small place.  I doubt anybody interested enough to read our exchange will have too much trouble finding your entire post.  I chose to reply to a specific point to that specific idea.  

For a single back and forth, yes. But for longer discussions, it turns into a bloody mess to keep track of what was said, not said, and on. Too often, discussion takes place and time is wasted over things no one intended as things were pulled out context. A lot of running in circles it looks to me. Easier to just to keep the context in place and it also avoids the copy/paste hell that so many of these types of responses tend to turn into.

I know some people enjoy these sorts of exchanges. I don't and I get no additional understanding from the text from them. :cheers:

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Alliser has a mind as small and shriveled as his heart. If Sam can’t fight with swords, then he’s worthless. Jon who is creative and able to think outside of the box is able to identify that Sam is no fighter, but he’s fully capable of being an archer and as such orders him to practice.

Didn't do it for Sam. The whole garrison had to practice in archery. Pretty revolutionary and needed to be sure but not for one member's sole benefit Sam so far has shown no more success in archery than he has in swordplay-hell it's not even long before the boy decides to skip practice for the fact he finds it too hard, and the time he actually used it in combat on Cinamon wind the only thing he struck with his arrows was the ocean. 

 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

Another example of Alliser not being able to think outside of the box is when he had the wight’s hand in KL. He waits, and he waits, and he waits for an audience fully knowing he’s being blown off and his evidence is deteriorating.

 

 He could have been creative and shown the hand throughout the streets of KL, throughout the castle, to the KG, etc., and word would have spread to Joff/Cersei/Tyrion and he would have been summoned. But no, Alliser just waits in his box

Maybe he thought showing a group of peasants some unholy abomination such as this may cause a vitriolic reaction than what he would hope for; perhaps the peasants would string him up for being a witch and destroy the demonic hand.

Or he maybe he didn't really know the hand was deteriating.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Alliser has a mind as small and shriveled as his heart. If Sam can’t fight with swords, then he’s worthless.

Maybe that is true; maybe it isn't. 

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