Sam in basic training

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, zandru said:

You go ranging with the brothers of the Nights Watch you have, not the ones you'd like.

And the NW had someone who was clearly more qualified to be Aemon's steward than Sam.

Sam's appointment isn't a case of making do with the best they've got.

In most other jobs a steward would actually be expected to do besides writing Chett would be better suited than Sam and it'd much easier to improving Chett's ability to write and do sums than to get Sam better on the stuff that are outside his comfort level only for him to not even do the majority of the tasks of a steward.

14 hours ago, zandru said:

 

The Watch is analogous to one of today's volunteer organizations, where the folks doing the work are the ones who step forward to work without pay or perk.

Not really. Many people are forced in this military order with perk of not being brutalized/executed by the local authority for a crime. 

14 hours ago, zandru said:

Most likely, the "best" candidates will be off using their skills for pay, and lots of it. So the successful nonprofit manager (another unpaid volunteer) has to take this into account and do the best she can with the "talent" she has to work with. The Watch has one advantage over today's nonprofits: the staff can't just walk off the job if they get offended, mistreated, overworked, or bored.

Yes.

 

[Lollygag]

35 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Didn't do it for Sam. The whole garrison had to practice in archery. Pretty revolutionary and needed to be sure but not for one member's sole benefit Sam so far has shown no more success in archery than he has in swordplay-hell it's not even long before the boy decides to skip practice for the fact he finds it too hard, and the time he actually used it in combat on Cinamon wind the only thing he struck with his arrows was the ocean. 

 

Maybe he thought showing a group of peasants some unholy abomination such as this may cause a vitriolic reaction than what he would hope for; perhaps the peasants would string him up for being a witch and destroy the demonic hand.

Or he maybe he didn't really know the hand was deteriating.

Maybe that is true; maybe it isn't. 

I didn't say he did it just for Sam. Sam's an example of a larger point about Jon being able to think outside of the box.

Why are you just bringing up the peasants and ignoring the KG and other high-ranking officials found here and there around the Red Keep? Point is Thorne had an obstacle in his path and couldn't compensate accordingly.

ACOK Tyrion VI

Ser Alliser frowned uncomfortably. "It . . . rotted to pieces while I waited, unheard. There's naught left to show but bones."

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I didn't say he did it just for Sam. Sam's an example of a larger point about Jon being able to think outside of the box.

 

I already awknowleged what Jon did as being revolutionary and needed.

So, yes, I quite agree, Jon is able and had thought outside the box. 

Alliser has a mind as small and shriveled as his heart. If Sam can’t fight with swords, then he’s worthless. Jon who is creative and able to think outside of the box is able to identify that Sam is no fighter, but he’s fully capable of being an archer and as such orders him to practice.

Your statement makes it seem Jon singled out Sam as more likely at finding sucees at archery than swordplay(which Sam would have proven wrong if true-for he showed no more skill at it or willinglyness to try to improve upon it than he did with a sword-I dare anyone to show otherwise)  and had Sam specifically train at it rather than him continue trying to improve on the sword as Allister would.

I really don't see how any other meaning one could have reasonably can gotten from the words.

 

And if you have an inkling to say I've taken your words out of context, I must say I did not intend to do so but nor do I feel I did.

 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

 

 Why are you just bringing up the peasants and ignoring the KG and other high-ranking officials found here and there around the Red Keep? Point is Thorne had an obstacle in his path and couldn't compensate accordingly.

 ACOK Tyrion VI

Ser Alliser frowned uncomfortably. "It . . . rotted to pieces while I waited, unheard. There's naught left to show but bones."

First, just wanted to show why showing this thing throughout city would not have been wise. Showing it off in the redkeep however is far more feasible true. The kingsguard(depending on which) possibly more so. That should be awknowleged. Why are you ignoring the possibility that Thorne didnt know the hand was deteriorating before it was too late?

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, zandru said:

Maybe Sarella Sand will help him with his archery skills.

If Sarella is posing as Alleras, likely not. Sam skipped practice at castle black, didn't practice on the Cinamon wind with a litany of professional archers, I see very little reason for him to change with the story we have left on this specific part of him-he can certianly-but I just see it unlikely 

[Lollygag]

21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I already awknowleged what Jon did as being revolutionary and needed.

I've not read this whole thread so apologies if this has already been covered.

Alliser has a mind as small and shriveled as his heart. If Sam can’t fight with swords, then he’s worthless. Jon who is creative and able to think outside of the box is able to identify that Sam is no fighter, but he’s fully capable of being an archer and as such orders him to practice.

Your statement makes it seem Jon singled out Sam as more likely at finding sucees at archery than swordplay(which Sam would have proven wrong if true-for he showed no more skill at it or willinglyness to try to improve upon it than he did with a sword)  and had Sam specifically train at it rather than him continue trying to improve on the sword as Allister would. 

I really don't see how any other meaning one could have reasonably can gotten from the words.

Can you cite any instances showing Sam more potential with the bow than sword?

First, just wanted to show why showing this thing throughout city would not have been wise. Showing it off in the redkeep however is far more feasible true. The kingsguard(depending on which) possibly more so. That should be awknowleged. Why are you ignoring the possibility that Thorne didnt know the hand was deteriorating before it was too late?

How is Sam & the less warrioresque NW members being given a bow "revolutionary and needed" and then you turn around and ask me to cite evidence for instances showing Sam has more potential with the bow than sword"? It looks like you're trying to contest what you've already agreed with.

No, going through the city wouldn't have been the first choice, but it's far, far better than nothing which is what he got. But again, my point is that Alliser had an obstacle and he couldn't compensate for it.

I didn't ignore Alliser not realizing the hand was deteriorating. That's what the quote addressed. "Rotted to pieces while I waited" indicates normal and gradual decomposition over time as he waited over an extended period of time. He knew. Again:

ACOK Tyrion VI

Ser Alliser frowned uncomfortably. "It . . . rotted to pieces while I waited, unheard. There's naught left to show but bones."

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

How is Sam & the less warrioresque NW members being given a bow "revolutionary and needed

 

Far as we know mandatory archery drills for everyone was not something yet tried, it's a change in how things are usually done-by definition it can be called revolutionary.

And how is it needed? There is a coming invasion of ice-zombies, of possibly of thousands-such things it'd be better to deal from a distance and the more people who know how to do this the better, and the watch is no longer a group to which knights make up a large membership-especially when there hundreds of hunters among the wildlings who've more experience with shooting arrows than swinging a sword.

Do you disagree on it being needed? 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

and ask me to cite evidence for instances showing Sam has more potential with the bow than sword"?

Yes. How has he shown to be more capable of being an archer(to which you claimed Jon identified as being fully capable of to which caused Jon to order Sam to practice with a bow), than being a fighter who uses a sword?

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It looks like you're trying to contest what you've already agreed with.

Not really-me believing what Jon did was needed and revolutionary, is not a contradicting my sentiment that Sam has shown no more ability to find sucess with the bow than he has with the sword.  

Jon's new approach here has benifitted the group as a whole not so much Sam as an indivual because of what Sam is.

Unless Sam grows and stops trying to actively avoid any physical excursion(as in actually try), he's no more capable of being an archer, or fighter. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

No, going through the city wouldn't have been the first choice, but it's far, far better than nothing which is what he got

It could have been worse than nothing-he could have been killed, the hand destroyed, and a mass panic to where the hand could be lost-and likely those in authority would be prompted to do nothing for the watch, any talks of giving aid to the brotherhood become more unlikely for the disturbance.

And he got men for the watch. (though admitbly due to Tyrion remembering the eerie feeling he had at the wall-).

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

But again, my point is that Alliser had an obstacle and he couldn't compensate for it.

Clearly. Though thinking back on Jon's attempts to get the crown's attention on the matter I have to say he didn't really do better.

Jon sent customary letter asking for the crown's aid and that's it

And quite badly given has needlessly cryptic it was. At the very least he could have tried utilizing Slynt who was a puppet of the lanisters to try to back up his claims of the dead walking-or try capturing another walker cut it up and parade it to the various powers of the north-in case Stannis fails(which is a likely outcome much as Jon would prefer his family's enemies to lose), the watch needs these entities for support.

But yes Jon is progressive(a former whore is his steward, recruits are given temporary tenures, etc), he's thinking "outside the box" as opposed to the old timers who try to retain the old ways because tradition

Allister should have tried more to generate attention true.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I didn't ignore Alliser not realizing the hand was deteriorating. That's what the quote addressed. "Rotted to pieces while I waited" indicates normal and gradual decomposition over time as he waited over an extended period of time. He knew. Again

The quote has him explaing what had happened after it had. It's fairly easy to guess what happened after finding it after the fact.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Now two things are notable here, now that Jon is in a position of power there are no exceptions to people skipping training. As a trainee and Sam's best friend his argument was for what was best for Sam, now as a leader it is what is best for the group. Secondly this archery practice is after Sam's run in with the Other, this is the confident Sam rather than the Sam who just rolled over and died rather than stand up for himself. 

 And the reason for archery not being a mainstay would be down to Mormont rather than Thorne, Jon is correcting a practice made by the previous Lord Commanders.

Excellent points.  Sam himself marks Jon's growth-in AGOT all it would take for Sam to get Jon to bend the watch to accomadate the boy would be to cry and reference his tragic past(which indeed tragic to be clear)-now Sam would get no sympathy if he tries to skirt his duty by trying this when he tries to use this tact to wiggle out of going to the citadel to learn to be a maestor "Jon he'd said but Jon was gone. It was lord snow  who faced him now with gray eyes hard as ice" pg 118

Good on Jon. I feel the medium he has with Sam is perfect-Allister was too harsh and critisms were more insults, but AGOT Jon was too soft, on the boy, giving up trying to improve Sam individual faults to make him more likely to endure the watch  and instead bend the watch for the indivual.

And, yes, the outdated ways of training(not to say Allister was great to say the least), are more to blame on Jeor-which isn't surprising-he too is set in old ways of thinking-hell Jon doesn't even think Mormont would consider granting refugee to the wildlings.

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

at the very least he should have been forced to improve his fitness. 

Fair. I mean, obesity could cause health problems that could take Sam too early-and if he never needs to flee, well he'd better to do it if lost a couple of pounds.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On June 8, 2018 at 12:42 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

Thorne was no prize, but neither was Sam. In all his years growing up he could at least tried to have learned some martial arts, tried to exercise a little more, tried to be the kind of man his father wanted as the future head of his house. Remember, Horn Hill is in a crucially strategic position between the Prince's Pass from Dorne and Highgarden. That means the future lord must be at least competent in battle, and even more importantly, a leader of strong-willed men. So all the things Randyll did to make a man of Sam may look extreme and unconscionably cruel, but there was a point to it all: he simply cannot allow his house to go to a wishy-washy milquetoast like Sam.

 

 

Tarley is granted too little empathy here-truly he is a product of his time. I imagine most lords of his station  would have disowned and disinherited Sam for his cowardice.  I honestly think if Sam had shown some measure of wil, Tarley would have allowed him to remain his heir though. I see his ultimatum being that of the last test to make sure Sam has no hope of improving-if a menlike Tywin and Roose stay their hand at murdering their disappointing sons because of the unholiness of the act, it makes little sense a man like Tarley would kill their firstborn imo-his soul would be damned.

I wonder if he could have been also satisfied if Sam showed any in well military strategy

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Far as we know mandatory archery drills for everyone was not something yet tried, it's a change in how things are usually done-by definition it can be called revolutionary.

And how is it needed? There is a coming invasion of ice-zombies, of possibly of thousands-such things it'd be better to deal from a distance and the more people who know how to do this the better, and the watch is no longer a group to which knights make up a large membership-especially when there hundreds of hunters among the wildlings who've more experience with shooting arrows than swinging a sword.

Do you disagree on it being needed? 

Yes. How has he shown to be more capable of being an archer(to which you claimed Jon identified as being fully capable of to which caused Jon to order Sam to practice with a bow), than being a fighter who uses a sword?

Not really-me believing what Jon did was needed and revolutionary, is not a contradicting my sentiment that Sam has shown no more ability to find sucess with the bow than he has with the sword.  

Jon's new approach here has benifitted the group as a whole not so much Sam as an indivual because of what Sam is.

Unless Sam grows and stops trying to actively avoid any physical excursion(as in actually try), he's no more capable of being an archer, or fighter. 

 

 

It could have been worse than nothing-he could have been killed, the hand destroyed, and a mass panic to where the hand could be lost-and likely those in authority would be prompted to do nothing for the watch, any talks of giving aid to the brotherhood become more unlikely for the disturbance.

And he got men for the watch. (though admitbly due to Tyrion remembering the eerie feeling he had at the wall-).

Clearly. Though thinking back on Jon's attempts to get the crown's attention on the matter I have to say he didn't really do better.

Jon sent customary letter asking for the crown's aid and that's it

And quite badly given has needlessly cryptic it was. At the very least he could have tried utilizing Slynt who was a puppet of the lanisters to try to back up his claims of the dead walking-or try capturing another walker cut it up and parade it to the various powers of the north-in case Stannis fails(which is a likely outcome much as Jon would prefer his family's enemies to lose), the watch needs these entities for support.

But yes Jon is progressive(a former whore is his steward, recruits are given temporary tenures, etc), he's thinking "outside the box" as opposed to the old timers who try to retain the old ways because tradition

Allister should have tried more to generate attention true.

The quote has him explaing what had happened after it had. It's fairly easy to guess what happened after finding it after the fact.

 

I'll read and reply to this if you revise your post so that my words aren't taken apart as I've requested upthread. If not, then

[The Commentator]

On 6/9/2018 at 12:05 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Where are you getting this impression; here's a quote from Jeor describing Allister during the NW's commanders' dinner with Tyrion

Jeor: Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing.

 

Alliser is a brave man and expected all of his students to be the same.  Unfortunately, he got burdened with Samwell.  He's a coach who has to win a game that isn't game and he can't choose his players.  In comes this woefully inadequate young man that he has to train.  

[The Commentator]

This is off to the side but may contribute to our understanding of Sam's circumstances.  A leader has responsibilities to the folks below.  The pursuit of self actualization is nice but responsibility comes first.  Sam's dad did the right thing when he kept his unfit son from succeeding him.  We may argue whether sending him to the wall was the right decision but I think all of you would agree that the welfare and the safety of the small folk will be better served with Sam out of the picture.  Responsibility to the people come before responsibility to family.  Randyll understood it.  The NW would be so much better off if only Jon Snow understood that and prioritized his responsibilities accordingly.  Family should rank pretty low on the priority ladder.  And for a man of the watch, family should not be a priority at all.  Randyll could send Sam to Oldtown like he wanted.  But I am not even sure Samwell can make the cut with the maesters.  Just because they don't hack with swords doesn't mean those grey rats don't get mean.  I think we will see some friction between Leo and Sam.  I hope so.  That will be interesting to me.  

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 6/9/2018 at 6:58 PM, Katerine459 said:

Sam has internalized his abuse. This is evident from the way he thinks about his father, and the way he thinks about himself. True, he says that his father tried, and that Sam proved hopeless... but this is coming from Sam. Who's internalized his abuse. And is therefore not a completely reliable narrator, when it comes to his own upbringing at the hands of his father.

Come on, this seems a poor argument. We can only believe negative things about his father and nothing that is positive.  Either discount everything that Sam's says about him or nothing. 

Quote

Because he's internalized his abuse, not only will he make excuses for his abuse, but he fully believes that he deserves it. And he believes everything his father tells him. If Randyll tells Sam that he tried and tried and tried to make something of him, but Sam proved completely hopeless, Sam will believe it, and build his own identity around it.

We know he must have tried. 12 different Master of Arms and him resorting to bringing heathens in from Essos are evidence that Tarly snr tried. If your parents got you 12 different tutors and then brought in specialist from thousands of miles away to teach you then obviously they have tried. 

Randyll clearly failed and in a more enlightened age may have been offered better council on how to treat his son, but quite clearly he did try. 

Quote

 

That's how it goes with long-time abuse sufferers. Randyll might even believe it himself, but if Sam's ingrained thoughts about himself are anything to go by, Randyll actually, most likely, started expressing his disappointment and disgust with his son when Sam was about 2 years old.

Based on what? 

Quote

Which brings me to what you said about the Redwyne's attitude. There are three possibilities I can think of: either they met Sam, or they didn't meet him but saw him, or they didn't meet him but heard about him. In all of these cases, their attitude makes perfect sense.

AFFC Sam goes into some detail about the week he stayed with the Redwynes. His father had been negotiating a marriage for Sam to Lord Redwyne's daughter as well as the possibility of Sam becoming his ward. The whole week saw Sam continually fail culminating in him being beat by a kitchen girl

On the fifth his brother Hobber clad a kitchen girl in his own armor and let her beat Sam with a wooden sword until he began to cry. When she revealed herself, all the squires and pages and stableboys howled with laughter.

Randyll tries to defend his son but the damage had been done

"The boy needs a bit of seasoning, that's all," his father had told Lord Redwyne that night, but Redwyne's fool rattled his rattle and replied, "Aye, a pinch of pepper, a few nice cloves, and an apple in his mouth." Thereafter, Lord Randyll forbade Sam to eat apples so long as they remained beneath Paxter Redwyne's roof. He had been seasick on their voyage home as well, but so relieved to be going that he almost welcomed the taste of vomit at the back of his throat. It was not until they were back at Horn Hill that his mother told Sam that his father had never meant for him to return. "Horas was to come with us in your place, whilst you remained on the Arbor as Lord Paxter's page and cupbearer. If you had pleased him, you would have been betrothed to his daughter."

 

Sam was a laughing stock and because of who he was, the possibility of a decent marriage alliance was unlikely, which further puts his House in danger. His cowardice and him refusing to try was not just about war or leadership, it was making him a target for every other House. 

 

Quote

 

If they heard about him, what they heard probably came from Randyll originally, who would have primarily talked about what a disappointment Sam is.

Nope, this is wrong. His father was the only person defending him. 

Quote

 

If they saw him... Jon's first impression of Sam is that he was the fattest boy Jon had ever seen. And if they met Sam... by the time they did, Sam would undoubtedly have already internalized everything Randyll told him. So he would have introduced himself, not as, "Hi, I'm Sam, I like to read and write and do research. Have you read anything good lately?" but as, "Um, hi, I'm Sam. Samwell. Tarly. I'm afraid I'm a terrible coward." So of course they'd be contemptuous. And this, in turn, would feed Sam's (false) belief that he is worthless. That's probably true of everybody who's seen him, heard about him, or met him, for his entire life until he met Jon.

You do realize I am actually basing my thoughts on what happened. You don't seem to have read Sam's part about his trip to the Arbor so have just made up your own version were his father is the villain and poor Sam did nothing wrong. 

Quote

I agree with others about the other 12 Masters at Arms that Sam has had. Randyll Tarly probably only respected, and hired, people who think like him. And as I mentioned below, that's precisely why they never succeeded... because anything reminiscent of Randyll Tarly was going to bring out the "coward" identity in Sam.

How does Tarly think? How do other Lords think differently? 

 

[Azarial]

18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Phase 1 officer training still teaches the basics of soldiering in the UK the same as phase 1 for enlisted men, and I don't think many other countries wouldn't have similar basic for officers either. An officer still needs to know how to be a soldier before he can be trained in everything an officer needs to know as well as leadership, if anything officer training is harder. You specialise in phase 2, and as the American USMC put it "Every Marine a rifleman". Sam doesn't even perform all the roles of a steward, he basically just gets a free pass because he can read and write and it shows when he has to be carried away from the Fist. 

Fair enough. But Thorne still didn't train him. And giving Sam some one on one training wouldn't have been special treatment as Sam arrived at least one month, likely longer, after the other recruits in his class. So assigning someone like Jon, who's skills were more advance to getting him caught up would have been an easy solution that would take both of them off of his hands. This was a failure on Thorne's part. And I still say the point of the harsh training is to break them down, then build them up. But Sam was broken well beyond this point, to the point of PTSD when he arrived. If he was in modern military he would have been sent for a psych evaluation and deemed unable to complete basic training. 

And while he was put into a different roll he was still expected to train. He did the bow until he got blisters, and still trained with other weapons as well. He was very proud of this. But, before he could train he had to get over his trauma. And Thorne's methods would never have allowed for that. And this was conscription for 90% of them, Sam included. So it's not taking people who chose to be there and training them for their career of choice. And if someone isn't fit for service you can't discharge them. It's taking what they are given and trying to find a way to utilize them no matter what. This is what Jon figured out. 

This would be like taking someone with PTSD from an abusive childhood, ignoring all warnings and throwing them into basic training with a class that was already a month or more into training then being appalled when they fail.

[Katerine459]

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

On 6/9/2018 at 12:58 PM, Katerine459 said:

Sam has internalized his abuse. This is evident from the way he thinks about his father, and the way he thinks about himself. True, he says that his father tried, and that Sam proved hopeless... but this is coming from Sam. Who's internalized his abuse. And is therefore not a completely reliable narrator, when it comes to his own upbringing at the hands of his father.

Come on, this seems a poor argument. We can only believe negative things about his father and nothing that is positive.  Either discount everything that Sam's says about him or nothing.

I don't discount anything Sam says about his father. It's just important to read between the lines when it comes to abuse sufferers who consistently make excuses for their abusers, and realize that memories often lie, especially when it comes to children's memories of their parents... they tend to believe their parents' versions of events and their memories rewrite themselves to match.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

Because he's internalized his abuse, not only will he make excuses for his abuse, but he fully believes that he deserves it. And he believes everything his father tells him. If Randyll tells Sam that he tried and tried and tried to make something of him, but Sam proved completely hopeless, Sam will believe it, and build his own identity around it.

We know he must have tried. 12 different Master of Arms and him resorting to bringing heathens in from Essos are evidence that Tarly snr tried. If your parents got you 12 different tutors and then brought in specialist from thousands of miles away to teach you then obviously they have tried. 

Randyll clearly failed and in a more enlightened age may have been offered better council on how to treat his son, but quite clearly he did try. 

Agreed. He did try. My take, however, is that by constantly calling Sam a coward and not appreciating him for the things he could do well (read, write, research, his good heart, the good intellectual grasp of strategy which we saw when Jon was appointed Mormont's steward, etc.), he created the Sam we see in AGOT. The Sam that's intimidated by everything. The Sam who has no self-esteem, without which not much bravery is possible. The Sam that believes he is worthless, and because of how the human mind works, you act like what you believe you are.

--

Most of the rest of your post is answered by what I wrote in the above paragraph, so I won't bore you by repeating myself. It's true that I didn't remember any details about what Sam said about his time with the Redwynes, so I just tried to cover all possibilities. I'll take your word for what happened, and it's all covered in the, "if they met Sam..." possibility that I covered in my earlier post.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quote

I agree with others about the other 12 Masters at Arms that Sam has had. Randyll Tarly probably only respected, and hired, people who think like him. And as I mentioned below, that's precisely why they never succeeded... because anything reminiscent of Randyll Tarly was going to bring out the "coward" identity in Sam.

How does Tarly think? How do other Lords think differently? 

Randyll thinks that Sam's intelligence and book-related talents are worthless, and was so horrified by the idea of Sam becoming a Maester (a job he would actually have been well-suited for), that he permanently traumatized Sam to the point where he couldn't even consider the idea without feeling strangled. Most other lords would have seen their sons for what they ARE good at, rather than what they WANT them to be good at, and encouraged them to do what they'd be good at. Hence Aemon being allowed to join the Maesters, Ned telling Arya that Bran could become a Maester, etc.

The 12 other Masters at Arms would have had similar attitudes, because Randyll is not the type of person who would have respected them if they hadn't. And that's why they all failed. None of them would have allowed Sam any self-esteem, so all of them would have made the problem worse.

I'd like to contrast Sam with someone who's very, very much like him... or rather, this person is what Sam would have been, if Sam had been allowed to have any self-esteem growing up. Rodrik Harlaw. Rodrik's example not only shows what Sam could have been, but it also shows that even the Ironborn have more respect for intelligence and learning than Tarly... the other Ironborns' general approach to Rodrik is loving tolerance and even often valuing him for what he knows.

[zandru]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Sarella is posing as Alleras, likely not. Sam skipped practice at castle black, didn't practice on the Cinamon wind with a litany of professional archers, I see very little reason for him to change with the story we have left on this specific part of him-he can certianly-but I just see it unlikely 

A jape. You know, humor.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

'Trainees'. All Thorne did was throw them in a ring with a pair of swords and told them to hit the other person. Jon was the one who taught his 'class' how to actually use a sword. Thorne was the teacher because he was a knight. That's it. Not because he was the best man for the job and not because he's a good teacher. As I said earlier, someone who would be harsh on the recruits but not single any one of them purely for the sake of it would have done a much better job with Sam.

The first thing you have to do with new recruits is toughen them up. Get it so they can take a few bruises. These are raw, green recruits who have never picked up a weapon. The time for fine-tuning their swordsmanship would come later, even after they took their vows. You don't get an M-16 on your first day of basic training. You run first, and run and run and run and run and run.

[Azarial]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

A jape. You know, humor.

hehe How dare he not do archery while rowing to pay for passage, how unreasonable of him! Doesn't he have four arms? (oh wait he couldn't have 'worked for passage, he expects the small folk to wait on him. He was clearly just being lazy, I mean it's not like he trained at Crasters, even without direct orders or anything. Oh wait he did, as we were shown in Chets chapter. But, now he was ordered so he won't, will be the next argument someone will give us. I think Sam will practice his archery with 'Alleras,' because he won't want to disappoint Jon. Just like he obeyed the order to act brave, and not call himself a coward when he saw Leo, even though Jon would never know if he did otherwise.

Edit: I meant the fist, not Crasters. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Sam is weak and he deserves our compassion.  His father forced him to enlist in an order whose mission is to fight.  In an ideal world, somebody like Samwell can still contribute.  He can learn to farm the Gift and pay taxes to the watch.  Farming is hard and full of blisters but Sam can adjust.  Belonging to an order of brotherhood mean each guy contributes what he can to the best of his abilities.  Sam may be a liability but his brothers should still shelter and protect him from harm.   There is room for compassion.  The strong protect the weak.  Sort of like helping slaves become free men.

The major problem I see is there are others in that team who also deserve compassion.  Should we let them off the hook?  Most boys would choose safety and comfort over fighting.  If we let them off the hook then who will do the fighting?  How can we make an exception for Samwell and still be fair to the other boys?  It's not so simple as making an exception.  

 

 

[John Suburbs]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tarley is granted too little empathy here-truly he is a product of his time. I imagine most lords of his station  would have disowned and disinherited Sam for his cowardice.  I honestly think if Sam had shown some measure of wil, Tarley would have allowed him to remain his heir though. I see his ultimatum being that of the last test to make sure Sam has no hope of improving-if a menlike Tywin and Roose stay their hand at murdering their disappointing sons because of the unholiness of the act, it makes little sense a man like Tarley would kill their firstborn imo-his soul would be damned.

Hard to say. Tarley is about as hard-ass a lord as we've seen, so I can't give him much empathy. My impression is that he would not kill Sam himself but either make it known to his underlings that he wanted this to happen or he would put Sam in increasingly perilous situations and call it an accident. Whether the gods accept this or not is unclear, but I can see Tarley rationalizing it this way for the rest of his days. Maybe if he winds up like Hoster Tully he would start raving about it on his deathbed.

Or maybe he's just hard-nosed enough to sacrifice his soul for the future of Horn Hill and its people.

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I wonder if he could have been also satisfied if Sam showed any in well military strategy

That may be why Randall is so frustrated with his son. He probably can see that he would make a very capable strategist, and maybe even a tactician, but it's all for naught if he can't fight and he can't lead men. It's not so much Sam's lack of skills -- few lords' sons become the best fighter or jouster in the land -- but his utter weakness that prevents him from even trying.

It just seems to me that Sam is perfectly happy with enjoying all the pleasures and comforts that come with his station in life but is utterly unwilling -- not incapable, but unwilling -- to live up to its responsibilities.