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Sam in basic training


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55 minutes ago, Azarial said:

ehe How dare he not do archery while rowing to pay for passage, how unreasonable of him! Doesn't he have four arms

He stopped practing well before that at castle and didn't at least try asking for some advice or time to practice, to  which Kojja would have probably allowed, or given Sam herself. 

He recognizes the merit of Jon's order for him and the other traditionally non- fighting force of the watch to practice with the bow but has given up early in its endeavor.

55 minutes ago, Azarial said:

I mean it's not like he trained at Crasters, even without direct orders or anythingOh wait he did, as we were shown in Chets chapter.

Actually not really. Grenn and Dolorous Ed were clearly pushing Sam to train with the long much to the audible displeasure of Sam.

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

But, now he was ordered so he won't, will be the next argument someone will give us.

He's not practicing anymore because he finds hard-he actively skipped practice for it while he was at castle black.

 

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37 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Sam is weak and he deserves our compassion.  His father forced him to enlist in an order whose mission is to fight.  In an ideal world, somebody like Samwell can still contribute.  He can learn to farm the Gift and pay taxes to the watch.  Farming is hard and full of blisters but Sam can adjust.  Belonging to an order of brotherhood mean each guy contributes what he can to the best of his abilities.  Sam may be a liability but his brothers should still shelter and protect him from harm.   There is room for compassion.  The strong protect the weak.  Sort of like helping slaves become free men.

The major problem I see is there are others in that team who also deserve compassion.  Should we let them off the hook?  Most boys would choose safety and comfort over fighting.  If we let them off the hook then who will do the fighting?  How can we make an exception for Samwell and still be fair to the other boys?  It's not so simple as making an exception.  

 

 

I agree with most of what you said. But, there is a difference between compassion and letting someone off the hook. We see how Iron Emmett and Jon discuss the recruits, how they treat them. How they look for their personal strengths and weaknesses and there is no shaming of those who aren't good fighters. It's not going poor baby you don't want to be here, so I'll go easy on you. None of them want to be there. It's simply looking at each one and finding a role where they can succeed. And going okay, your not good with a sword, lets try a bow, and a dagger. They still get trained, but when they advance the focus will be on a weapon they can succeed with.

Thorne was awful. He was awful to all of them. Sam and Jon were simply the first time someone had the strength to fight back. And Sam is the most extreme case because of his traumatic childhood. Most had a bad run in with the law, half undeserved, but when it comes to training to fight their biggest issue was a lack of training. Something Thorne never fixed. Jon had no choice but to force Sam out of initial training. But, we see that Sam is still training in weapons. The only difference is now it's on his own time and with people who support him. A bow for a Maester is a good choice. And he did pick up a bow and fire it at other ships at old town. So no, he didn't get a pass, and most of us aren't saying he should get a pass. 

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He stopped practing well before that at castle and didn't at least try asking for some advice or time to practice, to  which Kojja would have probably allowed, or given Sam herself. 

He recognizes the merit of Jon's order for him and the other traditionally non- fighting force of the watch to practice with the bow but has given up early in its endeavor.

Actually not really. Grenn and Dolorous Ed were clearly pushing Sam to train with the long much to the audible displeasure of Sam.

He's not practicing anymore because he finds hard-he actively skipped practice for it while he was at castle black.

 

No, he missed practice because he was searching the vaults for the information Jon requested. He feels bad about it, and has blisters, so that shows that he was training recently. And we do see him use a bow on the ship. It's shown at oldtown, and it's shown that while he can't compete with them in range, that he has improved in accuracy.

Yes, he needed encouragement from his friends at the fist, so what? it wasn't an order. He didn't have to do it. His low self esteem from past failures made him reluctant, but he still did it. And he was really proud of his blisters, and his progress, going out of his way to show them to Jon. That's not avoiding it. If he were avoiding practice he wouldn't draw attention to it.

But, I don't see either of us changing our opinion, so let's just agree to disagree. 

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8 minutes ago, Azarial said:

And we do see him use a bow on the ship. It's shown at oldtown, and it's shown that while he can't compete with them in range, that he has improved in accurac

I fully pointed out such earlier

 

9 minutes ago, Azarial said:

It's shown at oldtown, and it's shown that while he can't compete with them in range, that he has improved in accuracy.

Fair point:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"Dareon will join you at Eastwatch. My hope is that his songs will win some men for us in the south. The Blackbird will deliver you to Braavos. From there, you'll arrange your own passage to Oldtown. If you still mean to claim Gilly's babe as your bastard, send her and the child on to Horn Hill. Elsewise, Aemon will find a servant's place for her at the Citadel."
"My b-b-bastard. Yes, I … my mother and my sisters will help Gilly with the child. Dareon could see her to Oldtown just as well as me. I'm … I've been working at my archery every afternoon with Ulmer, as you commanded … well, except when I'm in the vaults, but you told me to find out about the Others. The longbow makes my shoulders ache and raises blisters on my fingers." He showed Jon his hand. "I still do it, though. I can hit the target more often than not now, but I'm still the worst archer who ever bent a bow. I like Ulmer's stories, though. Someone needs to write them down and put them in a book."
"You do it. They have parchment and ink at the Citadel, as well as longbows. I will expect you to continue with your practice. Sam, the Night's Watch has hundreds of men who can loose an arrow, but only a handful who can read or write. I need you to become my new maester."
Though his showing off his blisters has less to do with pride as much as wanting to show Jon he was doing what he was supposed to.

 

10 minutes ago, Azarial said:

Yes, he needed encouragement from his friends at the fist, so what? it wasn't an order.

Pretty much it was. Sam is doing this not because he wants but because his friends told him he has to and hes really to weak-willed to say no-he's doing it because he's told to its not him trying better himself individually in it of itself.

15 minutes ago, Azarial said:

He didn't have to do it.

Kinda did-it's in his nature to obey.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Hard to say. Tarley is about as hard-ass a lord as we've seen, so I can't give him much empathy. My impression is that he would not kill Sam himself but either make it known to his underlings that he wanted this to happen or he would put Sam in increasingly perilous situations and call it an accident. Whether the gods accept this or not is unclear, but I can see Tarley rationalizing it this way for the rest of his days. Maybe if he winds up like Hoster Tully he would start raving about it on his deathbed.

Or maybe he's just hard-nosed enough to sacrifice his soul for the future of Horn Hill and its people.

That may be why Randall is so frustrated with his son. He probably can see that he would make a very capable strategist, and maybe even a tactician, but it's all for naught if he can't fight and he can't lead men. It's not so much Sam's lack of skills -- few lords' sons become the best fighter or jouster in the land -- but his utter weakness that prevents him from even trying.

It just seems to me that Sam is perfectly happy with enjoying all the pleasures and comforts that come with his station in life but is utterly unwilling -- not incapable, but unwilling -- to live up to its responsibilities.


The thing with the kinslaying is that he may have done it if Sam had refused or he may not have, we don't know however there was absolutely no way Sam would have refused anyway so it wasn't really even a real ultimatum. 

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2 hours ago, Azarial said:

. And this was conscription for 90% of them, Sam included. So it's not taking people who chose to be there and training them for their career of choice. And if someone isn't fit for service you can't discharge them. It's taking what they are given and trying to find a way to utilize them no matter what. This is what Jon figured out.

 This seems wrong. The watch needs to be concerned with the improvement of the watch as whole, its not what the watch can do for the brother but what the brother can do for the watch-if the only way Sam could actually get a stewardship is replacing, someone whose superior in most aspects of it and could be improved upon in the very limited ways Sam is superior(i.e writing, doing basic sums), the question must be asked; to whose benifit is this action; the watch as a whole or the brother as an indivual; the latter was Jon's concern

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48 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 This seems wrong. The watch needs to be concerned with the improvement of the watch as whole, its not what the watch can do for the brother but what the brother can do for the watch-if the only way Sam could actually get a stewardship is replacing, someone whose superior in most aspects of it and could be improved upon in the very limited ways Sam is superior(i.e writing, doing basic sums), the question must be asked; to whose benifit is this action; the watch as a whole or the brother as an indivual; the latter was Jon's concern

Perhaps I missed this, and if I did I'm sorry, but in what way is Chett superior to Sam as a steward?  In any way?  And I mean I know this didn't play into it, but we learn later on that Chett is a total monster who would betray the Watch at the first sign of trouble.  But let's put that aside...What is Chett better at than Sam as a steward?  And maybe the Watch is best served by putting Chett in charge of the dogs?  Doesn't seem like it because again, Chett is a monster and he seems to be basically good for nothing.

But again, I think we can safely say Sam is more intelligent than Chett and he's certainly more compassionate and sympathetic to Aemon than Chett is.  I don't think you would try to argue that Chett took better care of Aemon than Sam did?

And one last thing that perhaps plays into this:  In the case of stewards, it seems they are being groomed to replace the person they serve.  Like Jon is the Old Bear's steward, maybe the thought is Sam could replace Aemon eventually.  Chett could never do that.  

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3 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

I don't discount anything Sam says about his father. It's just important to read between the lines when it comes to abuse sufferers who consistently make excuses for their abusers, and realize that memories often lie, especially when it comes to children's memories of their parents... they tend to believe their parents' versions of events and their memories rewrite themselves to match.

I'm still not seeing this, Sam would have gotten this information from his mother and other people rather than his father. 

And 'abuse' seems a loaded word given Ned taking his seven year son to watch him execute someone would be classed as abuse in our time, as would pretty much all of the squire training. Tommen and Bran being made to fight with wooden weapons would be seen as abuse, it is just part of their every day life. 

Boys are trained from an early age for war and most of that training rightfully seems barbaric by our standards, but that is part of their society. Ned Dayne is 12 years of age fighting in his first war, he is not alone, the likes of Willem Lannister are also there. Squire training is going to be seen as abusive by our ears, but less so to the people of Westeros. 

It is quite telling that Jon's reaction is not the same as ours to Sam's stories. To us Randyll is certainly an abuser, but then so is Ned, Robert and pretty much every father in the series. 

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Agreed. He did try. My take, however, is that by constantly calling Sam a coward

Again, we don't know that. We don't know when Tarly's pride and disappointment turned to anger and loathing. 

 

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and not appreciating him for the things he could do well (read, write, research, his good heart, the good intellectual grasp of strategy which we saw when Jon was appointed Mormont's steward, etc.),

Well that is not entirely correct. 

 From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

Samwell is incredibly well read exactly because his father allowed him to be. While every other noble son, Tyrion apart, was busy doing the training what was expected of young nobles Sam was able to do as he pleased. So Sam's position as steward is kind of down to his father. 

Now the sad thing is, it does not matter about him being able to read, write etc. he would have been expected to do those anyway, but leading is what comes first and Sam's initial response to anything difficult was to give up, let the other side win. 

The nobility are the 1%, they lead lives of luxury getting the very best of everything and for all these benefits there are some expectations. Sam was unwilling. 

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he created the Sam we see in AGOT. The Sam that's intimidated by everything. The Sam who has no self-esteem, without which not much bravery is possible. The Sam that believes he is worthless, and because of how the human mind works, you act like what you believe you are.

So why is Dickon not like that? 

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Most of the rest of your post is answered by what I wrote in the above paragraph, so I won't bore you by repeating myself.

No, it was not. You tried to lay the blame on how the Redwynes saw him on his father when the text is pretty explicit that his father was the only one defending him. 

Lord Redwyne did not want to take  Sam on as his ward and we have seen enough of both Redwyne and his twin sons to see he is not some brute who only cares about fighting. He clearly cares about brains, as his request for supporting the Lannisters was tax exemptions. He did not see any worth in Sam either. 

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:) It's true that I didn't remember any details about what Sam said about his time with the Redwynes, so I just tried to cover all possibilities. I'll take your word for what happened, and it's all covered in the, "if they met Sam..." possibility that I covered in my earlier post.

eh? Why would you need to take my word, I quoted some of the passages. 

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Randyll thinks that Sam's intelligence and book-related talents are worthless,

Citation? 

At no point has that ever been said, but nobles also have to lead. They can't give up at the first sign of conflict. 

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and was so horrified by the idea of Sam becoming a Maester (a job he would actually have been well-suited for),

How would he have been well suited for it?

 But he grew ill at the sight of blood, and wept to see even a chicken slaughtered.

The Sam we saw pre his confrontation with an Other was not well suited to being a Maester. Maester's deal with the sick, they are taken with their Lords to the warzones in times of war and are expected to deal with blood and the horrors of war. 

And exams, even in the medieval era, were stressful and we have seen how Sam deals with stress, he admits defeat before he even tries.

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 Most other lords would have seen their sons for what they ARE good at,

No, that is really not true at all. There is an expectation on heirs to be able to lead, Sam was born as the heir to his House. Had he not joined the Watch he would have been expected to fight in the War of the Five Kings, had an accident befall to his father he would have been expected to lead the Tarly House. He was not cut out for it. 

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rather than what they WANT them to be good at, and encouraged them to do what they'd be good at. Hence Aemon being allowed to join the Maesters,

Aemon was sent to the Maesters he had two older brothers, his father was the youngest son while all three of his older brothers were alive and two of them had children of their own. Aemon was the 17th in line and without the benefit of hindsight that gap was expected to grow rather than shorten. 

Though Aemon is a good point, despite being a Maester he realized that the only way to not be eligible to inherit was join the Nights Watch. Aemon was the precedent that Tarly followed.  Sam was the first born and by the standards of their world he was not suitable to to lead. 

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Ned telling Arya that Bran could become a Maester, etc.

No, he does not. Arya is asking what can Bran do now that he is a cripple, Ned points out that his life is not yet over.

He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

However you seem to have missed the point of this conversation, this is not evidence of Ned allowing his children to follow their dreams as the exchange between father and daughter shows children are expected to do what their society likes

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."
Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

 

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The 12 other Masters at Arms would have had similar attitudes, because Randyll is not the type of person who would have respected them if they hadn't.

What attitude? We have seen Randyll quite a bit, what is this attitude you think he had? Renly is not the most martial person we have seen, but Randyll was quite devoted to him. 

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

 

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And that's why they all failed. None of them would have allowed Sam any self-esteem, so all of them would have made the problem worse.

Again, where are you getting this from? 

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I'd like to contrast Sam with someone who's very, very much like him... or rather, this person is what Sam would have been, if Sam had been allowed to have any self-esteem growing up. Rodrik Harlaw.

How so? 

Sam refused to try, he would rather lie down and play dead while Rodrik Harlaw is from the most savage and cutthroat realm in Westeros. 

Sam would never have survived had he been born on the Iron Islands. 

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Rodrik's example not only shows what Sam could have been, but it also shows that even the Ironborn have more respect for intelligence and learning than Tarly... the other Ironborns' general approach to Rodrik is loving tolerance and even often valuing him for what he knows.

He is also a leader who has kept his other ambitious relatives in their place. He does not allow others to walk all over him and he is highly respected amongst the Ironborn despite his hobby.

All they have in common is they both like to read. That is it. It is an incredibly lazy comparison. 

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53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
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Rodrik's example not only shows what Sam could have been, but it also shows that even the Ironborn have more respect for intelligence and learning than Tarly... the other Ironborns' general approach to Rodrik is loving tolerance and even often valuing him for what he knows.

He is also a leader who has kept his other ambitious relatives in their place. He does not allow others to walk all over him and he is highly respected amongst the Ironborn despite his hobby.

All they have in common is they both like to read. That is it. It is an incredibly lazy comparison. 

I'll try to work on the rest of your post at a later point, but I just wanted to answer this. All of this boils down to self-esteem. Everything that's "wrong" with Sam, has its roots in self-esteem, or rather, a lack thereof. You complain that Sam gives up when faced with hardship. I'd counter that this only lasts through AGOT, and we start to see a very different Sam starting with ACOK, but the point is, even if it were true that Sam always gives up when faced with hardship... this lack of motivation has its roots in a lack of self-esteem. The lack of bravery, also, is due to a lack of self-esteem. Even his queasiness at the sight of blood has its roots in a lack of self-esteem, as well as a general gentle-heartedness. It also probably (definitely) has something to with the trauma of what Randyll did to him when he said he wanted to become a Maester.

Sam and Rodrik don't just both like to read. They both love to read. And research. And share what they've learned. And care for other people. And analyze things. Etc. And I meant what I said... Rodrik is what Sam would be like, if only Sam had been allowed any self-esteem when he was growing up.

You ask what I'm basing my assessments on... I'm basing them on everything. Everything we see of Sam speaks to what his upbringing must have been like. When somebody has that little self-esteem, it's because of a history of abuse.

I'm also basing it on how Sam was beginning to change, after he got away from both his father, and Thorne. As others mentioned, he was practicing archery and getting better. He only missed archery practice while losing himself in long hours researching the White Walkers at Jon's request... something he absorbed himself in, and proved quite good at. He cared for Maester Aemon and the ravens quite well. Before that, he went north of the Wall and stabbed a White Walker. He took action to save Gilly's baby. He still struggles with undervaluing himself, but with the help of his brothers, he was getting better at that, as well. And let's not forget how he got Jon elected LC... which... I don't know how easy it is for somebody who's never struggled with social anxiety to understand, but that was hard for him. Like, on par with facing a White Walker, hard. And he did it anyway.

He clearly has the capacity to get over his fears, and only requires encouragement, a push, and the right circumstances. He could have done this all along and become a really good Maester, if only his father had let him, instead of traumatizing the boy for life. There was nothing wrong with sending Sam to the Citadel and raising Dickon to be his heir, except that Randyll believed that the life of a Maester was beneath a Tarly (i.e. a life of learning and service... everything Sam's good at... is worthless).

Some things are abusive, only in comparison to the times. Such as having a 7-year-old witness a beheading, which is abusive by today's standards, but not abusive by the standards of the time. Refusing to allow your son to accept a calling that would be perfectly acceptable for any other lord's son, because you despise everything the calling stands for and everything your son represents... that's abusive by any time-period's standards.

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
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Most of the rest of your post is answered by what I wrote in the above paragraph, so I won't bore you by repeating myself.

No, it was not. You tried to lay the blame on how the Redwynes saw him on his father when the text is pretty explicit that his father was the only one defending him. 

Lord Redwyne did not want to take  Sam on as his ward and we have seen enough of both Redwyne and his twin sons to see he is not some brute who only cares about fighting. He clearly cares about brains, as his request for supporting the Lannisters was tax exemptions. He did not see any worth in Sam either. 

I can quickly answer this. It seems you misread what I said. I didn't know/remember the description of Sam's visit with the Redwynes, so I listed 3 possibilities to explain why the Redwynes were so contemptuous of him. The first possibility was that they'd never met Sam, but only heard about him. That was the one where I said that they'd probably heard Randyll complaining. Given that they'd actually met Sam, please refer to my, "if they met him" explanation:
 

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And if they met Sam... by the time they did, Sam would undoubtedly have already internalized everything Randyll told him. So he would have introduced himself, not as, "Hi, I'm Sam, I like to read and write and do research. Have you read anything good lately?" but as, "Um, hi, I'm Sam. Samwell. Tarly. I'm afraid I'm a terrible coward." So of course they'd be contemptuous. And this, in turn, would feed Sam's (false) belief that he is worthless. That's probably true of everybody who's seen him, heard about him, or met him, for his entire life until he met Jon.

It's not all that different from what you described. It all comes back to self-esteem.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

This is another one I can answer quickly. :) I interpreted this passage to mean that Sam was not permitted to enjoy his music and his books, until Dickon came along, and Randyll turned his attention on Dickon. Before then, Sam's life was very different.

So, the chronology of Sam's life goes something like this:

  1. Sam is born. Randyll is elated.
  2. Sam turns out to be a bookworm who loves books, music, and puppies, and hates fighting. Randyll is disgusted, and wonders where he went wrong. He starts trying to beat this tendency out of Sam. This continues for several miserable years, as Sam grows more and more fearful of his father, and Randyll grows more and more desperate to beat the girlishness out of Sam.
  3. Dickon is born. Randyll is elated that he now has a second chance to get the son he wanted. He turns all his attention to Dickon, and Sam is left blissfully alone. This continues for several years, as Randyll ignores him and focuses on Dickon. (Dickon, meanwhile, probably sees and hears what his father thinks of his older brother, and subconsciously decides that Sam's route is not the way to go. Because that's how it works with younger siblings.)
  4. Randyll gives Sam the Nights Watch ultimatum.
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9 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

I'll try to work on the rest of your post at a later point, but I just wanted to answer this. All of this boils down to self-esteem. Everything that's "wrong" with Sam, has its roots in self-esteem, or rather, a lack thereof. You complain that Sam gives up when faced with hardship. I'd counter that this only lasts through AGOT, and we start to see a very different Sam starting with ACOK, but the point is, even if it were true that Sam always gives up when faced with hardship... this lack of motivation has its roots in a lack of self-esteem. The lack of bravery, also, is due to a lack of self-esteem. Even his queasiness at the sight of blood has its roots in a lack of self-esteem, as well as a general gentle-heartedness. It also probably (definitely) has something to with the trauma of what Randyll did to him when he said he wanted to become a Maester.

Sam and Rodrik don't just both like to read. They both love to read. And research. And share what they've learned. And care for other people. And analyze things. Etc. And I meant what I said... Rodrik is what Sam would be like, if only Sam had been allowed any self-esteem when he was growing up.

You ask what I'm basing my assessments on... I'm basing them on everything. Everything we see of Sam speaks to what his upbringing must have been like. When somebody has that little self-esteem, it's because of a history of abuse.

I'm also basing it on how Sam was beginning to change, after he got away from both his father, and Thorne. As others mentioned, he was practicing archery and getting better. He only missed archery practice while losing himself in long hours researching the White Walkers at Jon's request... something he absorbed himself in, and proved quite good at. He cared for Maester Aemon and the ravens quite well. He still struggles with undervaluing himself, but with the help of his brothers, he was getting better at that, as well. And let's not forget how he got Jon elected LC... which... I don't know how easy it is for somebody who's never struggled with social anxiety to understand, but that was hard for him. Like, on par with facing a White Walker, hard. And he did it anyway.

He clearly has the capacity to get over his fears, and only requires encouragement, a push, and the right circumstances. He could have done this all along and become a really good Maester, if only his father had let him, instead of traumatizing the boy for life. There was nothing wrong with sending Sam to the Citadel and raising Dickon to be his heir, except that Randyll believed that the life of a Maester was beneath a Tarly (i.e. a life of learning and service... everything Sam's good at... is worthless).

Some things are abusive, only in comparison to the times. Such as having a 7-year-old witness a beheading, which is abusive by today's standards, but not abusive by the standards of the time. Refusing to allow your son to accept a calling that would be perfectly acceptable to any other lord's son, because you despise everything the calling stands for and everything your son represents... that's abusive by any time-period's standards.

I can quickly answer this. It seems you misread what I said. I didn't know/remember the description of Sam's visit with the Redwynes, so I listed 3 possibilities to explain why the Redwynes were so contemptuous of him. The first possibility was that they'd never met Sam, but only heard about him. That was the one where I said that they'd probably heard Randyll complaining. Given that they'd actually met Sam, please refer to my, "if they met him" explanation:
 

It's not all that different from what you described. It all comes back to self-esteem.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people can't see that being forced to bathe in blood is what made him hate the sight of blood. If this had never happened and he'd been sent to the citadel he'd have been just fine. The fear was created. And yes his treatment was absolutely abuse. I'm pretty sure seeing a beheading is in a different league from bathing in blood, paraded in women's clothes and mocked, and chained by the throat in a dungeon. :dunno:

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Perhaps I missed this, and if I did I'm sorry, but in what way is Chett superior to Sam as a steward?  In any way?  And I mean I know this didn't play into it, but we learn later on that Chett is a total monster who would betray the Watch at the first sign of trouble.  But let's put that aside...What is Chett better at than Sam as a steward?  And maybe the Watch is best served by putting Chett in charge of the dogs?  Doesn't seem like it because again, Chett is a monster and he seems to be basically good for nothing.

But again, I think we can safely say Sam is more intelligent than Chett and he's certainly more compassionate and sympathetic to Aemon than Chett is.  I don't think you would try to argue that Chett took better care of Aemon than Sam did?

To add to this. Jon said that maybe Sam could assist him as he can read, write and do sums. All things Chett can't do. He never said Sam should replace Chett. He could have been assigned to the library, organizing all the books, or recording the counts for Bowen, or assisting Clydas with the notes coming and going on the Ravens, since his eyes are going as well. 

Aemon is the one who chose to replace Chett, not Jon. So the Jon put the needs of Sam above a better qualified guy is bunk. Jon gave an opinion, Aemon is the one who decided what to do with Sam, and no one tells Aemon what to do.

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

And one last thing that perhaps plays into this:  In the case of stewards, it seems they are being groomed to replace the person they serve.  Like Jon is the Old Bear's steward, maybe the thought is Sam could replace Aemon eventually.  Chett could never do that.  

This seems like the most likely reason why Chett was replaced. He couldn't do the tasks that a Maester in training would need to do, like reading, writing, sums, advising Lords etc. Chett wasn't better qualified, he was less qualified in the more specialized areas that Aemon needed in a replacement. 

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1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Perhaps I missed this, and if I did I'm sorry, but in what way is Chett superior to Sam as a steward?  In any way?  And I mean I know this didn't play into it, but we learn later on that Chett is a total monster who would betray the Watch at the first sign of trouble.  But let's put that aside...What is Chett better at than Sam as a steward?  And maybe the Watch is best served by putting Chett in charge of the dogs?  Doesn't seem like it because again, Chett is a monster and he seems to be basically good for nothing.

But again, I think we can safely say Sam is more intelligent than Chett and he's certainly more compassionate and sympathetic to Aemon than Chett is.  I don't think you would try to argue that Chett took better care of Aemon than Sam did?

And one last thing that perhaps plays into this:  In the case of stewards, it seems they are being groomed to replace the person they serve.  Like Jon is the Old Bear's steward, maybe the thought is Sam could replace Aemon eventually.  Chett could never do that.  

In most:

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. Why shouldn't Sam be a steward?"
Chett gave an angry scowl. "I'm a steward. You think it's easy work, fit for cowards? The order of stewards keeps the Watch alive. We hunt and farm, tend the horses, milk the cows, gather firewood, cook the meals. Who do you think makes your clothing? Who brings up supplies from the south? The stewards."
 
Aemon doesn't correct Chett; most of the actual obligations of a steward Sam will not be able to do more effectively than Chett-the few avenues to where Sam is ahead can more easily taught to Chett than the myriad of other things Sam would have to learn in order to properly service the role. 
I dont know why you think Aemon was treated worse under Chett; he makes no complaint about the man; why do you think Chett treated Aemon worse than Sam?
Hell, it even appears Chett has a soft spot for Aemon if anything-though he's ultimately the one to have dismissed him true, he never fantasizes about having revenge upon the man or even thinking ill of him, hell refers to Aemon as Maestor Aemon or old maestor in his thoughts . 
At this point Sam could suffer the sight of blood. A maestror needs to  do that. Probably the most important job he could actually do. Jon doesnt think at this point Sam could harden enough to swing a sword, and defend himself(over time his thinking evolves to be sure), or butcher a animal.
Chett could never replace never replace Aemon-clearly-but it's no guarantee at this point Sam is a guarantee at it. 
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42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In most:

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. Why shouldn't Sam be a steward?"
Chett gave an angry scowl. "I'm a steward. You think it's easy work, fit for cowards? The order of stewards keeps the Watch alive. We hunt and farm, tend the horses, milk the cows, gather firewood, cook the meals. Who do you think makes your clothing? Who brings up supplies from the south? The stewards."
 
Aemon doesn't correct Chett; most of the actual obligations of a steward Sam will not be able to do more effectively than Chett-the few avenues to where Sam is ahead can more easily taught to Chett than the myriad of other things Sam would have to learn in order to properly service the role. 
I dont know why you think Aemon was treated worse under Chett; he makes no complaint about the man; why do you think Chett treated Aemon worse than Sam?
Hell, it even appears Chett has a soft spot for Aemon if anything-though he's ultimately the one to have dismissed him true, he never fantasizes about having revenge upon the man or even thinking ill of him, hell refers to Aemon as Maestor Aemon or old maestor in his thoughts . 
At this point Sam could suffer the sight of blood. A maestror needs to  do that. Probably the most important job he could actually do. Jon doesnt think at this point Sam could harden enough to swing a sword, and defend himself(over time his thinking evolves to be sure), or butcher a animal.
Chett could never replace never replace Aemon-clearly-but it's no guarantee at this point Sam is a guarantee at it. 

The Order of the Stewards hunts and farms, tends the horses, milks the cows, gathers firewood, cooks the meals, makes clothing, and brings supplies up from the south. The assistant to the Maester tends the ravens, helps Aemon get around, and ideally reads for him and otherwise serves as Aemon's eyes, as well as assists Aemon in his other duties. In Chett's POV chapter, we see that he liked that position, precisely because he wasn't asked to do the things that other stewards have to do, and he resented Jon and Sam for what he saw as their incursion on his nice, cushy job... one that Sam actually was far better able to do.

@Azarial is correct: Maester Aemon is the one who made the decision to replace Chett. All Jon did was make a convincing case for giving Sam a job helping Aemon. And it's possible that Chett blamed Sam and Jon instead of Aemon, for the same reason that Stannis blamed Ned for butting in on his rightful position as Hand - because people aren't logical. :)

You're correct that Sam had difficulties with the sight of blood, and a maester needs to be able to handle the sight of blood, and that Sam hadn't yet proved that he's capable of overcoming any of his fears. But I don't think Jon was thinking that far ahead... he was likely only thinking that Sam could be of real use to Maester Aemon, and it was stupid to waste a man who could otherwise be doing something useful... and while it's very possible that Aemon was thinking that far ahead, I think Aemon, who has known Dunk and Egg, knows that often a person has the capacity to be more than what even they think they can be.

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I think there was a plot by Olenna Tyrell to humble Randyll Tarly by having servants over feed his heir and do other things that made him a coward. All because he gained to much prestige as a Reach lord by being the only one to defeat Robert in the rebellion while Mace and the Redwyne's failed to take Storm's End. Also because Randyll wife and Sam mother is a Florent and the Tyrell's hate the Florents.

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6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The first thing you have to do with new recruits is toughen them up. Get it so they can take a few bruises. These are raw, green recruits who have never picked up a weapon. The time for fine-tuning their swordsmanship would come later, even after they took their vows. You don't get an M-16 on your first day of basic training. You run first, and run and run and run and run and run.

But do we see Alister do more other than have the boys bruise themselves with stick; constructive critism(to which Jon gave and Alister despised), seemed to be something Alister did not engage in no?

 

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16 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

I'll try to work on the rest of your post at a later point, but I just wanted to answer this. All of this boils down to self-esteem. Everything that's "wrong" with Sam, has its roots in self-esteem, or rather, a lack thereof.

He had several years of peace were his father left him alone, surrounded by his loving mother and sisters. Why did his self esteem not change? 

Quote

 

You complain that Sam gives up when faced with hardship.

It is not a complaint, it is a fact. 

The Sam we had seen is not cut out for leadership, giving up at the first sign of adversity, there is no shame in that, not everyone is cut out to rule no matter who their parents are. Sam was missing something and while I agree a more modern upbringing may have made him better suited, those type of educations were not usual at all in Westeros. 

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I'd counter that this only lasts through AGOT,

Nope, it happens throughout.  On the walk from the March Grenn and others are trying to save his life, motivate him to walk and all he wants to do is lie down and die, this happens constantly

Why must he remember the fight at the Fist? He didn't want to remember. Not that. He tried to make himself remember his mother, or his little sister Talla, or that girl Gilly at Craster's Keep. Someone was shaking him by the shoulder. "Get up," a voice said. "Sam, you can't go to sleep here. Get up and keep walking."
I wasn't asleep, I was remembering. "Go away," he said, his words frosting in the cold air. "I'm well. I want to rest."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam fell over sideways, curling up into a tight ball to protect himself from the kicks. He hardly felt them through all his wool and leather and mail, but even so, they hurt. I thought Grenn was my friend. You shouldn't kick your friends. Why won't they let me be? I just need to rest, that's all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little.
 
His colleagues end up carrying him, it can be argued that Small Paul dies of a result of carrying Sam as he was then not in a position to escape the Other.  Later we see him do the same when he is watching his friends get attacked at Craster's
 
"No corn," said Mormont feebly. "Tell Jorah. Forgive him. My son. Please. Go."
"It's too far," said Sam. "I'll never reach the Wall, my lord." He was so very tired. All he wanted was to sleep, to sleep and sleep and never wake, and he knew that if he just stayed here soon enough Dirk or Ollo Lophand or Clubfoot Karl would get angry with him and grant his wish, just to see him die.
 
Had it not been for his colleagues carrying him, chiding him and forcing him to walk he'd be dead. Same again happens with Gilly and her sisters, who force him to move when he wants to give up and die. 
 
He has no real self esteem for the first three books, it is only after he has killed an Other, saved Gilly and her baby as well as influence the outcome of the election does he start to have some self esteem. Jon was not around for the the majority of that. Sam found self esteem from enduring extreme hardship, much worse than anything his father could come up with, it was not from being treated better. 
Quote

 

and we start to see a very different Sam starting with ACOK, but the point is, even if it were true that Sam always gives up when faced with hardship... this lack of motivation has its roots in a lack of self-esteem. The lack of bravery, also, is due to a lack of self-esteem. Even his queasiness at the sight of blood has its roots in a lack of self-esteem, as well as a general gentle-heartedness. It also probably (definitely) has something to with the trauma of what Randyll did to him when he said he wanted to become a Maester.

This would make more sense if it was not the fact that Sam's only becomes confident after his return, not before it. On the march he is constantly called names and pushed and kicked in order to get him to move ( in a bid to save his life). It would also make more sense if Sam did not have several years of peace with no pressure from his father, but he did and his self esteem remained the same. 

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Sam and Rodrik don't just both like to read. They both love to read. And research. And share what they've learned.

That is still not a lot in common. 

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And care for other people.

You don't know that. Rodrik cares for his sister and his niece. Beyond that we don't see him care that much about his other family members. 

And come on, this is pretty vague. Pretty much every noble cares about some of their family. All you have done is ruled them both out with having much in common with the Cleganes. 

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And analyze things. Etc. And I meant what I said... Rodrik is what Sam would be like, if only Sam had been allowed any self-esteem when he was growing up.

No, absolute tosh. 

Rodrik is an ironborn, he was raised in a much harsher environment. He would have needed to be strong to rule.  You have came to some bizarre conclusion that reading makes you weak, it does not, or that Randyl is against reading, which again zero evidence. 

Tyrion also loves reading, analyzing and research but personality wise he is nothing like Sam. He is prepared to fight when he has to, he is tenacious and despite his disabilities can lead and command the respect of those he leads. 

You have made a poor comparison based on little more than they both enjoy reading. 

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You ask what I'm basing my assessments on... I'm basing them on everything. Everything we see of Sam speaks to what his upbringing must have been like. When somebody has that little self-esteem, it's because of a history of abuse.

No, it is not always for that. You think everyone is wired exactly the same? No, some people, no matter their upbringing, are not cut out for certain roles in life. 

Sam had several years of being able to do whatever he wanted surrounded by a loving mother and sisters, his self esteem did not improve. Only when he faced death and survive did he come back more confident. 

 

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I'm also basing it on how Sam was beginning to change, after he got away from both his father, and Thorne.

Except he does not begin to change till after he has faced death, not before. By all means point out Sam's growing self esteem before his confrontation with the Other. 

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As others mentioned, he was practicing archery and getting better.

Yes, Jon, as Lord Commander, made it mandatory for everyone, no excuses.  Sam only starts the archery after his run in with an Other, when his confidence was beginning to grow. 

 

Quote

 

Some things are abusive, only in comparison to the times. Such as having a 7-year-old witness a beheading, which is abusive by today's standards, but not abusive by the standards of the time.

None of Jon or the others who heard Sam's stories considered it abuse. 

There is no indication that they think it was 'abuse' in their time. Extreme and unusual methods, certainly, but not one character thinks of it as abuse. 

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Refusing to allow your son to accept a calling that would be perfectly acceptable for any other lord's son, because you despise everything the calling stands for and everything your son represents... that's abusive by any time-period's standards.

lol come on, no it is not. 

Sam going to the Citadel would still be the heir of Horn Hill, it is only if he became a Maester does he become ineligible and even then that is not certain as Aemon had to join the Watch to truly become exempt from inheriting. 

And it is not like Sam could not have read and researched as a Lord, but he would also need to stand up for himself, not give up at the first sign of trouble. 

Quote

I can quickly answer this. It seems you misread what I said. I didn't know/remember the description of Sam's visit with the Redwynes, so I listed 3 possibilities to explain why the Redwynes were so contemptuous of him.

No, you came up with the conclusion despite not knowing what had happened. Your conclusion was it was all his father's fault, you could not even come up with one scenario were it was not. 

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The first possibility was that they'd never met Sam, but only heard about him.

Which was wrong. But I get that, you have formulated your own opinion, that the only reason people view Sam like that is because that is what Randyll has told them, which is clearly not the case. He wanted them to see Sam as worthy and defended his son when he became a laughing stock to castle Redwyne. 

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That was the one where I said that they'd probably heard Randyll complaining. Given that they'd actually met Sam, please refer to my, "if they met him" explanation
 

They had met him, they had spent the week with him and every day there was a new calamity from Sam. 

 

16 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

This is another one I can answer quickly. :) I interpreted this passage to mean that Sam was not permitted to enjoy his music and his books, until Dickon came along, and Randyll turned his attention on Dickon. Before then, Sam's life was very different.

It does not say that at all. It says that once his father gave up on him he could spend all his time with book, music and doing whatever he pleased. Nothing changed. 

Quote

So, the chronology of Sam's life goes something like this:

  1. Sam is born. Randyll is elated.
  2. Sam turns out to be a bookworm who loves books, music, and puppies, and hates fighting. Randyll is disgusted, and wonders where he went wrong.

No. Reading, music or even puppies does not come into it (and given that Horn Hill is descended from Hunters, I'd imagine that Randyl loved puppies as much as anyone) but his unwillingness to try. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, you came up with the conclusion despite knowing what had happened. You conclusion was it was all his father's fault, you could not even come up with one scenario were it was not. 

Which was wrong. But I get that, you have formulated your own opinion, that the only reason people view Sam like that is because that is what Randyll has told them, which is clearly not the case. He wanted them to see Sam as worthy and defended his son when he became a laughing stock to castle Redwyne. 

They had met him, they had spent the week with him and every day there was a new calamity from Sam. 

 

*sigh* I'm too upset with this part of your post to respond to the rest right now. I explained my thought process, and you proceeded to call me a liar. Why? Why is it so hard to believe that I didn't remember anything about Sam visiting the Redwynes, so I was just going off the fact that apparently they were contemptuous of him, and I tried to think of all possible explanations of that, only one of which (they met him) applied?

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32 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

*sigh* I'm too upset with this part of your post to respond to the rest right now. I explained my thought process, and you proceeded to call me a liar. Why? Why is it so hard to believe that I didn't remember anything about Sam visiting the Redwynes, so I was just going off the fact that apparently they were contemptuous of him, and I tried to think of all possible explanations of that, only one of which (they met him) applied?

Allow me to assist with some of the other points.

Sam jumped in front of Jon to stop him from stabbing Alliser, knowing full well Jon was stronger, angry, a better fighter and holding weapon. This was just after they took their vows in GoT. He did it because Jon helped build his confidence, and supported him and was about to do something that would get him killed. So the idea of him having no courage until facing an other is bunk. He just needed someone (A macho male to be specific) to believe in him, and think he had value.

The archery started at the fist. So unless Sam stayed behind to practice with Ulmer and Edd while the rest fled, not starting archery training until after facing an Other is Bunk.

We have Sam telling Jon, that going on the ranging is one of the first times he hasn't felt afraid. Since this clearly happened prior to the Other encounter...

The blood thing, we see that Mormont and Jon got him to face looking at a body in GoT. He talks about seeing many bodies of animals being carved, and skinned and knows all about how the blood should look at various stages after death. He didn't want to look but did. It was Jon who was queasy, as the corpses were very abnormal. I just read this yesterday and am 100% sure that Sam stood back at first but looked, then moved closer with minimal encouragement. Sam does't like blood and corpses, but he can, and has in the past handled them. Mormont himself comments on Sams knowledge of blood and corpses!!

He tried to go and help the other men at the fist when they were being attacked, it was Mormont who sent him back and said tend the ravens, that's what we need you to do. It is critical that people know what is happening. Was he scared? Of course, and so was everyone else. They were being attacked by zombies, only a crazy person wouldn't be scared. And FYI he was less scarred than Chett, and lived longer, so there's that.

As for the march from the fist, he was tired, they'd been walking through deep snow for hours (Those of you knocking him, try it, and I bet you wouldn't make it as far as he did). Sam was far from the first to fall behind, or quit walking. We only notice him since we're in his bloody head. Sam told the others to leave him, because he didn't want anyone to die for him. He was willing to be alone in the dark, with the Others around to not place his friends in greater danger. Yeah, that's cowardly... Small Paul offered to carry him, Sam didn't ask him to, would never have asked that. Being physically exhausted doesn't make him a quitter. Bodies have limits, he reached his. If stopping is death, then he was physically at his limit as the fear will drive anyone in that situation to their breaking point. And like I said, lots of guys were seen to have fallen before him. They were doing a forced march in deep snow for 10-12 hours!! Honestly, this isn't him being a wimp. It was brutal for everyone. Hundreds died. If Sam was as pathetic as some posters want us to believe he'd be curled up behind a rock at the fist still. 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

I actually missed out a 'not' from that post, have since edited. My bad. 

I will consider this an apology. Thank you. Ok, moving on...

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
18 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

I'll try to work on the rest of your post at a later point, but I just wanted to answer this. All of this boils down to self-esteem. Everything that's "wrong" with Sam, has its roots in self-esteem, or rather, a lack thereof.

He had several years of peace were his father left him alone, surrounded by his loving mother and sisters. Why did his self esteem not change? 

Because it was too late to undo the damage. Lessons learned in childhood, especially at 7 or below, stay for life.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Sam we had seen is not cut out for leadership, giving up at the first sign of adversity, there is no shame in that, not everyone is cut out to rule no matter who their parents are. Sam was missing something and while I agree a more modern upbringing may have made him better suited, those type of educations were not usual at all in Westeros. 

I agree. Sam's not cut out for leadership, and there is no shame in that.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

 

I'd counter that this only lasts through AGOT,

Nope, it happens throughout.  On the walk from the March Grenn and others are trying to save his life, motivate him to walk and all he wants to do is lie down and die, this happens constantly

Why must he remember the fight at the Fist? He didn't want to remember. Not that. He tried to make himself remember his mother, or his little sister Talla, or that girl Gilly at Craster's Keep. Someone was shaking him by the shoulder. "Get up," a voice said. "Sam, you can't go to sleep here. Get up and keep walking."
I wasn't asleep, I was remembering. "Go away," he said, his words frosting in the cold air. "I'm well. I want to rest."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam fell over sideways, curling up into a tight ball to protect himself from the kicks. He hardly felt them through all his wool and leather and mail, but even so, they hurt. I thought Grenn was my friend. You shouldn't kick your friends. Why won't they let me be? I just need to rest, that's all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little.
 
His colleagues end up carrying him, it can be argued that Small Paul dies of a result of carrying Sam as he was then not in a position to escape the Other.  Later we see him do the same when he is watching his friends get attacked at Craster's
 
"No corn," said Mormont feebly. "Tell Jorah. Forgive him. My son. Please. Go."
"It's too far," said Sam. "I'll never reach the Wall, my lord." He was so very tired. All he wanted was to sleep, to sleep and sleep and never wake, and he knew that if he just stayed here soon enough Dirk or Ollo Lophand or Clubfoot Karl would get angry with him and grant his wish, just to see him die.
 
Had it not been for his colleagues carrying him, chiding him and forcing him to walk he'd be dead. Same again happens with Gilly and her sisters, who force him to move when he wants to give up and die. 
 
He has no real self esteem for the first three books, it is only after he has killed an Other, saved Gilly and her baby as well as influence the outcome of the election does he start to have some self esteem. Jon was not around for the the majority of that. Sam found self esteem from enduring extreme hardship, much worse than anything his father could come up with, it was not from being treated better. 

Everybody who's in the process of freezing to death has a point where they just want to lie down and sleep. It's physiological. Not saying this disproves your point, but it doesn't prove it either. As for telling Mormont that he'd never reach the Wall on his own... I took this for what he considers to be a statement of fact. He is fat. And the Wall is far away.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

 

and we start to see a very different Sam starting with ACOK, but the point is, even if it were true that Sam always gives up when faced with hardship... this lack of motivation has its roots in a lack of self-esteem. The lack of bravery, also, is due to a lack of self-esteem. Even his queasiness at the sight of blood has its roots in a lack of self-esteem, as well as a general gentle-heartedness. It also probably (definitely) has something to with the trauma of what Randyll did to him when he said he wanted to become a Maester.

This would make more sense if it was not the fact that Sam's only becomes confident after his return, not before it. On the march he is constantly called names and pushed and kicked in order to get him to move ( in a bid to save his life). It would also make more sense if Sam did not have several years of peace with no pressure from his father, but he did and his self esteem remained the same. 

ASOS is the first time we see a noticeable difference in Sam's self-esteem (he would never have been able to approach the lords and make his case for Jon at the beginning of AGOT), but I think we can safely conclude that tiny steps must have preceded that big step, or he would have died when faced with the WW.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

 

Some things are abusive, only in comparison to the times. Such as having a 7-year-old witness a beheading, which is abusive by today's standards, but not abusive by the standards of the time.

None of Jon or the others who heard Sam's stories considered it abuse. 

There is no indication that they think it was 'abuse' in their time. Extreme and unusual methods, certainly, but not one character thinks of it as abuse. 

I can't recall a single instance of any character considering anything child abuse, in any context. That doesn't mean that Jon and the others didn't think that Sam got a very bad deal growing up. At the beginning of AFFC, Sam has an actual trauma-induced panic attack at the idea of becoming a Maester, and garbles out something about how a Tarly can't become a servant, and Jon's jaw clenches, and you can almost hear him thinking that he'd like to strangle Randyll Tarly.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

Refusing to allow your son to accept a calling that would be perfectly acceptable for any other lord's son, because you despise everything the calling stands for and everything your son represents... that's abusive by any time-period's standards.

lol come on, no it is not. 

Sam going to the Citadel would still be the heir of Horn Hill, it is only if he became a Maester does he become ineligible and even then that is not certain as Aemon had to join the Watch to truly become exempt from inheriting. 

And it is not like Sam could not have read and researched as a Lord, but he would also need to stand up for himself, not give up at the first sign of trouble. 

Here's the thing: Sam loved to read. He was good at research. He's good at counseling people. He's got a good grasp of strategy (based on his ability to reason out what was happening when Jon was made steward). He was perfect Maester material... or at least, he was up until his father forced him to bathe in blood, chained him in a dungeon, and told him that no Tarly could ever become a servant.

Maesters have value. They counsel lords. They heal. They provide communication to the outside world. They teach the children of lords. They have value. And Randyll Tarly had another son. So why would Randyll purposely traumatize his son away from the one worthwhile job he would have been actually good at, unless he despises the very things that make Sam worthwhile?

Also, there is a difference between a King and a Lord, and the circumstances surrounding Aemon even being up for being King in the first place were kind of unusual. Under normal circumstances, there's nothing preventing a lord from naming his younger son heir, when the older son is training at the Citadel to become a Maester.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

I can quickly answer this. It seems you misread what I said. I didn't know/remember the description of Sam's visit with the Redwynes, so I listed 3 possibilities to explain why the Redwynes were so contemptuous of him.

No, you came up with the conclusion despite not knowing what had happened. Your conclusion was it was all his father's fault, you could not even come up with one scenario were it was not.

Well... that depends on how you look at it. The "they met him" scenario I came up with went like this:

18 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

And if they met Sam... by the time they did, Sam would undoubtedly have already internalized everything Randyll told him. So he would have introduced himself, not as, "Hi, I'm Sam, I like to read and write and do research. Have you read anything good lately?" but as, "Um, hi, I'm Sam. Samwell. Tarly. I'm afraid I'm a terrible coward." So of course they'd be contemptuous. And this, in turn, would feed Sam's (false) belief that he is worthless. That's probably true of everybody who's seen him, heard about him, or met him, for his entire life until he met Jon.

How much of that would have been Sam's fault, and how much his father's? That depends on your view of how much we really have a choice about who we are and how we act, which is always a tough call, especially considering Sam was a child at the time. Likewise, how much of what actually happened with the Redwynes was Sam's fault, and how much was his father's? Tough call.

I'm afraid I've caused this conversation to derail somewhat. The goal wasn't really to talk about Randyll Tarly. But it's impossible to talk about who Sam was at the beginning of AGOT, without talking about Randyll, and the entire point was to tie Sam's upbringing into the general theses of:

  1. Sam had worth. He always had worth, and a great deal of potential worth as a Maester. Maesters have worth.
  2. Sam specifically had worth to the NW... but he also had some serious problems. Problems that Thorne was making much worse with his treatment of Sam. Jon instinctively realized that not only was Thorne never going to get anywhere with Sam, but that the longer Sam had to spend with Thorne, the worse he was going to get, and acted accordingly.
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