Sam in basic training

[Tagganaro]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In most:

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

"The Night's Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn't make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won't either. You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless. Why shouldn't Sam be a steward?"

Chett gave an angry scowl. "I'm a steward. You think it's easy work, fit for cowards? The order of stewards keeps the Watch alive. We hunt and farm, tend the horses, milk the cows, gather firewood, cook the meals. Who do you think makes your clothing? Who brings up supplies from the south? The stewards."

 

Aemon doesn't correct Chett; most of the actual obligations of a steward Sam will not be able to do more effectively than Chett-the few avenues to where Sam is ahead can more easily taught to Chett than the myriad of other things Sam would have to learn in order to properly service the role. 

I dont know why you think Aemon was treated worse under Chett; he makes no complaint about the man; why do you think Chett treated Aemon worse than Sam?

Hell, it even appears Chett has a soft spot for Aemon if anything-though he's ultimately the one to have dismissed him true, he never fantasizes about having revenge upon the man or even thinking ill of him, hell refers to Aemon as Maestor Aemon or old maestor in his thoughts . 

At this point Sam could suffer the sight of blood. A maestror needs to  do that. Probably the most important job he could actually do. Jon doesnt think at this point Sam could harden enough to swing a sword, and defend himself(over time his thinking evolves to be sure), or butcher a animal.

Chett could never replace never replace Aemon-clearly-but it's no guarantee at this point Sam is a guarantee at it. 

@Katerine459 answered this as well, but it's clear Chett is talking about the Order of the Stewards in general and not Aemon's steward specifically.  No one man could possibly do all those things and it's especially clear that Sam's job as Aemon's steward does not include any of those responsibilities, nor did Chett's.  

I don't necessarily think Aemon was treated worse under Chett, but he certainly wasn't treated better.  And again, as has been mentioned, nobody forced Aemon to change stewards- he made that decision all on his own.  Jon made a persuasive argument but it was Aemon's decision and Aemon is much smarter than Jon so I would go with whatever Aemon decides anyway- Jon isn't gonna outsmart and manipulate Aemon now is he?

Are we calling it a "soft spot" that Chett doesn't want to murder Aemon ?  Chett is a monster who wanted to betray and murder the Watch at the first sign of hardship.  He wanted to leave the Watch to be overrun by the wildlings and didn't have a second thought- you really think that dude would stick around to help Aemon if the wildlings showed up at the Wall?  Chett ended up at the Wall because he stabbed a girl who didn't want to sleep with him, again he is a monster.

 

[Katerine459]

48 minutes ago, Azarial said:

Allow me to assist with some of the other points.

Sam jumped in front of Jon to stop him from stabbing Alliser, knowing full well Jon was stronger, angry, a better fighter and holding weapon. This was just after they took their vows in GoT. He did it because Jon helped build his confidence, and supported him and was about to do something that would get him killed. So the idea of him having no courage until facing an other is bunk. He just needed someone (A macho male to be specific) to believe in him, and think he had value.

The archery started at the fist. So unless Sam stayed behind to practice with Ulmer and Edd while the rest fled, not starting archery training until after facing an Other is Bunk.

We have Sam telling Jon, that going on the ranging is one of the first times he hasn't felt afraid. Since this clearly happened prior to the Other encounter...

The blood thing, we see that Mormont and Jon got him to face looking at a body in GoT. He talks about seeing many bodies of animals being carved, and skinned and knows all about how the blood should look at various stages after death. He didn't want to look but did. It was Jon who was queasy, as the corpses were very abnormal. I just read this yesterday and am 100% sure that Sam stood back at first but looked, then moved closer with minimal encouragement. Sam does't like blood and corpses, but he can, and has in the past handled them. Mormont himself comments on Sams knowledge of blood and corpses!!

He tried to go and help the other men at the fist when they were being attacked, it was Mormont who sent him back and said tend the ravens, that's what we need you to do. It is critical that people know what is happening. Was he scared? Of course, and so was everyone else. They were being attacked by zombies, only a crazy person wouldn't be scared. And FYI he was less scarred than Chett, and lived longer, so there's that.

As for the march from the fist, he was tired, they'd been walking through deep snow for hours (Those of you knocking him, try it, and I bet you wouldn't make it as far as he did). Sam was far from the first to fall behind, or quit walking. We only notice him since we're in his bloody head. Sam told the others to leave him, because he didn't want anyone to die for him. He was willing to be alone in the dark, with the Others around to not place his friends in greater danger. Yeah, that's cowardly... Small Paul offered to carry him, Sam didn't ask him to, would never have asked that. Being physically exhausted doesn't make him a quitter. Bodies have limits, he reached his. If stopping is death, then he was physically at his limit as the fear will drive anyone in that situation to their breaking point. And like I said, lots of guys were seen to have fallen before him. They were doing a forced march in deep snow for 10-12 hours!! Honestly, this isn't him being a wimp. It was brutal for everyone. Hundreds died. If Sam was as pathetic as some posters want us to believe he'd be curled up behind a rock at the fist still. 

Just wanted to say thanks for your input. A lot of this, I didn't remember before now, myself, and I think they're really good points to be reminded of.

[The Commentator]

Randyll pretty much rejected Samwell and left him to grow up with the ladies of the house.  A little more exposure to the outside world and Samwell will have more confidence.  To go from a lord's household and then to the wall is like time warp for Samwell.  He needed time to adjust.  The out of shape recruits should go through a progressively challenging fitness program before taking up the blade.  Make this program as challenging as the sword classes to avoid any perceptions of favoritism among the students.  Diet and exercise should be the focus of the curriculum.  Start off with jogging and work up to running.  Serve them reduced fat meals.  Keep them on this program until they get in better physical shape before moving on to fighting.  This can help Samwell develop better self-esteem and self-confidence.  

[Katerine459]

20 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Randyll pretty much rejected Samwell and left him to grow up with the ladies of the house.  A little more exposure to the outside world and Samwell will have more confidence.  To go from a lord's household and then to the wall is like time warp for Samwell.  He needed time to adjust.  The out of shape recruits should go through a progressively challenging fitness program before taking up the blade.  Make this program as challenging as the sword classes to avoid any perceptions of favoritism among the students.  Diet and exercise should be the focus of the curriculum.  Start off with jogging and work up to running.  Serve them reduced fat meals.  Keep them on this program until they get in better physical shape before moving on to fighting.  This can help Samwell develop better self-esteem and self-confidence.  

I agree with most of this except the, "serve them reduced-fat meals." I think you're taking a certain level of knowledge for granted.

Also, while in theory this is the best approach, in practice, the NW gave Thorne the job of training recruits in the first place because they didn't have anybody better (better=more qualified, in Mormont's view). They were very, very short on men. Having a man who trains out-of-shape recruits would not really have been an option.

[Azarial]

45 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

I agree with most of this except the, "serve them reduced-fat meals." I think you're taking a certain level of knowledge for granted.

Also, while in theory this is the best approach, in practice, the NW gave Thorne the job of training recruits in the first place because they didn't have anybody better (better=more qualified, in Mormont's view). They were very, very short on men. Having a man who trains out-of-shape recruits would not really have been an option.

I took this as all recruits do it, kinda like boot camp where they run them and such before training them in skills, so it would be part of Thorne's job. But could be wrong. But yes, there is no one willing to train the new members properly at that time. Though, Mormont did replace Thorne with a knight from house Tarth when he sent him off with the hand. I do wonder why this wasn't done sooner? My best guess is that he was a Ranger, and was good at going out, where Thorne seems to have no desire to go North of the wall.  Though I believe that senile knight Bowen left in charge of castle black during the great ranging could have done a better job than Thorne. I also find it odd, that a Northern Lord would only consider knights. I think a guy from the Mountain clans, who know about stealth and survival in the woods would have been best, given how ineffective swords are shown to be in the prologue of GoT. Axe, and dagger, that require less skill also seem better to me for untrained men. Lots that makes no sense in how the men are trained. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

When I was in the US Army, there were two guys that did not belong. The platoon sergeant told us young infantrymen that back in the old days, the men would police their own ranks. It was like throwing red meat to a pack of hungry dogs. Those dudes got treated a lot like Rast did the night Jon Snow and his buddies visited him with Ghost. The sadistic nature of some drill sergeants was quite obvious. I saw one light a Zippo lighter and attempt to burn a man's face with it. I saw that same drill have his men hang another man out a third story window by his ankles. Another kicked me in the small of my back and knocked me into a brick planter. Another had me doing pushups while striking me on the helmet with a hickory stick. He hit me hard enough to knock the helmet from my head. He was not so bad, though... he stopped after my helmet snapped off. Other drills were exemplary. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

When I was in the US Army, there were two guys that did not belong. The platoon sergeant told us young infantrymen that back in the old days, the men would police their own ranks. It was like throwing red meat to a pack of hungry dogs. Those dudes got treated a lot like Rast did the night Jon Snow and his buddies visited him with Ghost. The sadistic nature of some drill sergeants was quite obvious. I saw one light a Zippo lighter and attempt to burn a man's face with it. I saw that same drill have his men hang another man out a third story window by his ankles. Another kicked me in the small of my back and knocked me into a brick planter. Another had me doing pushups while striking me on the helmet with a hickory stick. He hit me hard enough to knock the helmet from my head. He was not so bad, though... he stopped after my helmet snapped off. Other drills were exemplary. 

Time? So far as I've read drill-sergents are pressured to be far more lenient than they were in the past.

Like Jon in away. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But do we see Alister do more other than have the boys bruise themselves with stick; constructive critism(to which Jon gave and Alister despised), seemed to be something Alister did not engage in no?

 

Perhaps, but he might not have judged them ready yet. Remember, he is forced to pass them through on the orders of the Lord Commander, so they probably had not even crossed the initial phase of their training: boost their strength, and their wind, and break down their egos so they start thinking of themselves as men of the NW, not individuals.

Like I said, much of the fine-tuning of swordsmanship and battle tactics could come later, after they've been properly broken down into competent fighting men. It's hard training, both physically and psychologically, but it is necessary given their mission and the situation the Watch is in.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Perhaps, but he might not have judged them ready yet. Remember, he is forced to pass them through on the orders of the Lord Commander, so they probably had not even crossed the initial phase of their training: boost their strength, and their wind, and break down their egos so they start thinking of themselves as men of the NW, not individuals.

Like I said, much of the fine-tuning of swordsmanship and battle tactics could come later, after they've been properly broken down into competent fighting men. It's hard training, both physically and psychologically, but it is necessary given their mission and the situation the Watch is in.

That's  a fair point worth podering. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Are we calling it a "soft spot" that Chett doesn't want to murder Aemon ?  Chett is a monster who wanted to betray and murder the Watch at the first sign of hardship.  He wanted to leave the Watch to be overrun by the wildlings and didn't have a second thought- you really think that dude would stick around to help Aemon if the wildlings showed up at the Wall?  Chett ended up at the Wall because he stabbed a girl who didn't want to sleep with him, again he is a monster.

Not just not wanting to murder the old maestor(who was the one to discard him), but, having no ill thoughts of the man, and showing him a degree of respect in his thoughts to which he shown basically no one-saying he's a soft spot for Aemon isn't by extension he's good(far from it, he's the text-book example of the scum to which the watch was then reliant upon to make up their base). 

Hell many monsters throughout history, have had a monicum of care to someone or something. 

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

don't necessarily think Aemon was treated worse under Chett, but he certainly wasn't treated better. 

I agree. Both played nurse perfectly competent. But yes, as an actual assistant in Aemon's work Sam admitably will be a better fit. 

5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

And again, as has been mentioned, nobody forced Aemon to change stewards- he made that decision all on his own.  Jon made a persuasive argument but it was Aemon's decision and Aemon is much smarter than Jon so I would go with whatever Aemon decides anyway- Jon isn't gonna outsmart and manipulate Aemon now is he?

At this point, Jon would not able to do either true-he ultimately was the cause of Chett's dismissal but in the end it was Aemon's-honestly, it's likely Aemon had already decided fairly quickly before Jon made Sam's case for stewardship, I would wager he'd ask what Chett would do to see if it was possible to hold onto both(though perfectly suppurplous, I'm sure Jeor would accommodate the man's request). 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Time? So far as I've read drill-sergents are pressured to be far more lenient than they were in the past.

Like Jon in away. 

Mid 80s. We were an infantry cohort unit, one of the very first of the newly reactivated 10th Mountain Division. Drills were supposed to have been lightening up for few years by then, but I think several factors combined to make our basic training a bit of an outlier. Still, the point I would make is that there are dudes like Thorne in the real world--dudes that enjoy power tripping and abusing their charges. And not just in the military. I recall this dude in middle school gym class that was singled out as gay and teased--by the gym instructors. It didn't take long for the other kids to tease him relentlessly. I don't think anyone ever hurt him physically though. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

11 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

Here's the thing: Sam loved to read. He was good at research. He's good at counseling people. He's got a good grasp of strategy (based on his ability to reason out what was happening when Jon was made steward). He was perfect Maester material... or at least, he was up until his father forced him to bathe in blood, chained him in a dungeon, and told him that no Tarly could ever become a servant.

 Maesters have value. They counsel lords. They heal. They provide communication to the outside world. They teach the children of lords. They have value. And Randyll Tarly had another son. So why would Randyll purposely traumatize his son away from the one worthwhile job he would have been actually good at, unless he despises the very things that make Sam worthwhile?

The bathing in blood came before Sam's request to be a Maestor. When Randyl was trying to fix the boy. 

 

You know the qualities you listed that you say make make Sam worthwhile , being intelegent, enjoying read to read and analyze, research things, strategy, and  being good at counseling others, are qualities to which would be recognized as helping make/needed for a good lord and/or general, to which Randyl desperately wanted Sam to be.

But on Sam they're wasted-this probably infuriated Randyl more than if the boy had merely been mentally challenged Hell Sam's intelegence  probably consolidates an idea in Tarley's head of Sam choosing not to improve rather  than him genuinely not being able to. 

Randyl dislikes the thought of a Tarley being a Maestor because he equates it with being a servent-yes, they perform a necessary functions, but so do farmers, kennel masters, and those tasked with emptying out Randyl's chamber pot; none of which  Randyl would allow Sam, to do, even when he decided to pass the boy up for Dickon. Sam(much as Randyl hates it), is Randyl's firstborn, Sam's choices and conduct still reflect upon House Tarly as whole and he'll be damned before he lets Sam shame his house anymore.

And honestly, Randyl tried really hard to shape Sam into a man worthy of leading his house-only for Sam to say he'd prefer to be a Maestor-I can see Sam's request provoked such a strong backlash, Sam is spitting upon all Randy's hard work-it's not because the boy is smart, or a good heart, or because he likes to read, being smart etc. 

His reaction wasn't right but I don't see him as being the Westeroes equivalent of a dumb jock who hates his nerd son for being a nerd as you present him as.

And on the Ironborn I have to say @Bernie Mac is right; they'd eat someone like Sam alive, hell I can imagine Victorian(whose near the perfect example of what Ironborn should be), having sympathy for a Randyl, and applauding his efforts to toughen up Sam.

Those intelligent but unwillingly to fight or defend themselves, are met with revulsion same as any coward.

Hell we see Victorian's crew rape the Maestor Victorian had under him and see Victorien(who does see the use of Maestors), tell the guy to defend himself if he's so sick of it when the Maestor makes a complaint about it.

The reader fairs well because he was far stronger than Sam was when he started his training.

And, yes Sam's claim on Tarley land can pose a threat,

Its not unheard of lords encroaching upon eachother's territory with the excuse being a better claim.

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

 

Because it was too late to undo the damage. Lessons learned in childhood, especially at 7 or below, stay for life.

And yet at the same time you were trying to claim there were rapid improvements from his time with Jon? 

Though if you truly believe that the damage was done and the change irreversible then surely you'd be able to understand why Sam had to be removed from the line of succession. Randyll has a responsibility to his House and his vassals, allowing someone who seems like he would be a disastrous appointment, even if Randyll himself is at fault for that, would be a selfish mistake.

 

Quote

I agree. Sam's not cut out for leadership, and there is no shame in that.

There is not, but Sam was the heir. If GRRM wanted to make Randyll the monster so many see him as then he would have made Sam a younger son and still treated him like that (also he would never have made Tarly the person responsible for saving Brienne from being raped). 

Tarly is trying to help Sam, he fails, but his intentions were for Sam to emerge as a leader. 

Quote

Everybody who's in the process of freezing to death has a point where they just want to lie down and sleep.

Well no, not everyone. We have characters carrying him and urging him on. 

And many of these actually saw battle at the fist, would be walking with injuries or even more panicked having been right in the thick of the battle. Sam was not. 

Quote

 

 I took this for what he considers to be a statement of fact. He is fat. And the Wall is far away.

Well no, not quite. He manages to do it with a girl who has just given birth and a newborn baby, all while he remains fat. 

I agree, before the Other he would never have been able to do it. The Other has been a revelation to Sam, he faced certain death and not only survived but vanquished it. He also managed to bag the girl in the process. It's the ending of many a cheesy teenage movie. 

Quote

ASOS is the first time we see a noticeable difference in Sam's self-esteem (he would never have been able to approach the lords and make his case for Jon at the beginning of AGOT), but I think we can safely conclude that tiny steps must have preceded that big step, or he would have died when faced with the WW.

Why? Before the Wight he wanted to die, but when faced with death he did a combination of fight and flight  "And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands." and overcame.  

Quote

I can't recall a single instance of any character considering anything child abuse, in any context. That doesn't mean that Jon and the others didn't think that Sam got a very bad deal growing up.

Jon never thinks that though. We are inside Jon's head, and there is no sign of him thinking Tarly snr am monster or even him thanking himself lucky his father was Ned. 

There is an understanding in their society about men, especially heirs, needing to be courageous. Sam, in the ways their society valued, was not. 

Quote

 

At the beginning of AFFC, Sam has an actual trauma-induced panic attack at the idea of becoming a Maester, and garbles out something about how a Tarly can't become a servant, and Jon's jaw clenches, and you can almost hear him thinking that he'd like to strangle Randyll Tarly.

Sorry, that is not true at all. And we get this conversation twice, so I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. 

From Sam's POV he see's Jon as having no compassion

"Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice. "You have no father," said Lord Snow. "Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night's Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack, along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown....

 

From Jon's POV all he can think of is the conversation he just had with Gilly and his ominous words to himself about Melisandre's threats to kill Val's baby, KILL THE BOY. 

 

Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard. "You have no father. Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night's Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown...

 

Jon is not thinking about Sam's father at all in this instance, he is facing up to his (and Sam's) adult responsibilities. And lets face it, at this point Jon is in no position to judge anyone on being abusive, he is separating Gilly from her newborn son, sending her thousands of miles south to care for another baby and hoping that Melisandre won't sacrifice Gilly's son.  

 

 

Quote

Here's the thing: Sam loved to read. He was good at research. He's good at counseling people. He's got a good grasp of strategy (based on his ability to reason out what was happening when Jon was made steward). He was perfect Maester material... or at least, he was up until his father forced him to bathe in blood, chained him in a dungeon, and told him that no Tarly could ever become a servant.

I don't deny any of that, but none of those matter to a lord who has no backbone and is not respected. Allowing Sam to rule would be putting Randyl's family and people in danger. 

Quote

Maesters have value. They counsel lords. They heal. They provide communication to the outside world. They teach the children of lords. They have value. And Randyll Tarly had another son. So why would Randyll purposely traumatize his son away from the one worthwhile job he would have been actually good at?

I'm not disputing that, but acoltye's at the Citadel are not Maesters and they are still in the line of succession. One former Hand of the King, Lord Strong of Harrenhal, picked up two or three links in his youth but still became a Lord. 

Look at the ages of Randyl and Ned's children, they are all similar. It is possible Randyll was a similar age to Sam is now when he was fighting Robert Baratheon during Robert's Rebellion. Tarly snr was likely well aware that he could die any day and Sam, as blessed as he was in many other aspects, was not cut out to rule a medieval House in that era. 

Quote

Under normal circumstances, there's nothing preventing a lord from naming his younger son heir, when the older son is training at the Citadel to become a Maester.

According to who? That is brand new information to me, and sadly I have spent years discussing this subeject. 

Quote

 

1. Sam had worth. He always had worth, and a great deal of potential worth as a Maester. Maesters have worth.

Sure, I don't think anyone has really denied that. But Sam was the oldest son, he was not equipped to be rule in those times and given his reaction to blood and injuries, as well as his frequent giving up when things got too much for him there is little reason for his father to think he would become a Maester. 

 

Quote

 

1. Sam specifically had worth to the NW... but he also had some serious problems. Problems that Thorne was making much worse with his treatment of Sam. Jon instinctively realized that not only was Thorne never going to get anywhere with Sam, but that the longer Sam had to spend with Thorne, the worse he was going to get, and acted accordingly.

Right, Jon made that decision as Sam's best friend. He did not really care about the Watch at that point, his decision was for Sam. Once Jon is Lord Commander he is no longer that compassionate, he is thinking of the bigger picture, so when he commands everyone to take archery he is not going to care if they hate it or can't learn, they are doing it.. Tarly snr is also a Lord, he has to make decisions which are best for the the Tarly's and the people of Horn Hill. 

[Azarial]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is not, but Sam was the heir. If GRRM wanted to make Randyll the monster so many see him as then he would have made Sam a younger son and still treated him like that (also he would never have made Tarly the person responsible for saving Brienne from being raped). 

It was Dickon who noticed what was happening and knew something needed to be done. Randyll stepped in because Dickon asked him to, and because he didn't want his men to be accused of rape even though he thought she deserved it and equated her to a camp follower.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well no, not everyone. We have characters carrying him and urging him on. 

This is twisting her words. She said when tired and freezing to death, not at that moment on the march. Clearly all the men will have varying levels of stamina. 

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well no, not quite. He manages to do it with a girl who has just given birth and a newborn baby, all while he remains fat. 

After resting and he had a horse for part of it. And when he was leading her horse he set the pace. They weren't doing a forced march with Others right on their heels. It's not just the distance, it's the distance, speed and adrenaline combined that got him to his breaking point on the march. These aren't the same thing. Also he wasn't motivated by fear of the other, he was motivated by his desire to save Gilly and the baby. If Randyll ever wanted to motivate Sam he should have given him something to fight for. Fear, for fears sake is a poor motivator. The Lordship wasn't a motivation for him as it was presented. But if someone had told him about all the good you can do for people as a Lord, that might have helped.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I agree, before the Other he would never have been able to do it. The Other has been a revelation to Sam, he faced certain death and not only survived but vanquished it. He also managed to bag the girl in the process. It's the ending of many a cheesy teenage movie. 

He doesn't see it this way, we're in his head we know what he thinks. Jon's dagger did it. And worry for the innocent. He never considered getting it on with Gilly. The boat was long after this, and she initiated it, and had to persuade him. He doesn't think he vanquished anything.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why? Before the Wight he wanted to die, but when faced with death he did a combination of fight and flight  "And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands." and overcame.  

It's not letting me split the box anymore. This is him trying to save one of the men who were kind enough to save him. He wasn't facing his death, he was was trying to prevent the death of someone who was kind to him. 

Jon never thinks that though. We are inside Jon's head, and there is no sign of him thinking Tarly snr am monster or even him thanking himself lucky his father was Ned. 

Jon is unaware of everything but the threat Sams dad made the day he left, so he has no reason to think of him at all.

There is an understanding in their society about men, especially heirs, needing to be courageous. Sam, in the ways their society valued, was not. 

True, men won't follow a leader they don't respect. We are told this outright in the prologue of GoT

From Jon's POV all he can think of is the conversation he just had with Gilly and his ominous words to himself about Melisandre's threats to kill Val's baby, KILL THE BOY. 

This is about what Maester Aemon said, not the threats to the baby, although that does motivate his actions.

 

Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard. "You have no father. Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night's Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown...

 

Jon is not thinking about Sam's father at all in this instance, he is facing up to his (and Sam's) adult responsibilities. And lets face it, at this point Jon is in no position to judge anyone on being abusive, he is separating Gilly from her newborn son, sending her thousands of miles south to care for another baby and hoping that Melisandre won't sacrifice Gilly's son.  

 

The motivations, make these very different things. One is to try and save the life of a child that is danger, the other is to make someone be manly. That said, this is an example of a decision that I don't think Sam could make. Then a baby would die, and he'd have to live with that. And that is why I agree with what you say below. And I agree with why Randyll did what he did. I just don't agree with his methods.

I don't deny any of that, but none of those matter to a lord who has no backbone and is not respected. Allowing Sam to rule would be putting Randyl's family and people in danger. 

I'm not disputing that, but acoltye's at the Citadel are not Maesters and they are still in the line of succession. One former Hand of the King, Lord Strong of Harrenhal, picked up two or three links in his youth but still became a Lord. 

Good point, easy to forget that this isn't like the Night's Watch where once you join that's it. That getting to that point takes years.

Look at the ages of Randyl and Ned's children, they are all similar. It is possible Randyll was a similar age to Sam is now when he was fighting Robert Baratheon during Robert's Rebellion. Tarly snr was likely well aware that he could die any day and Sam, as blessed as he was in many other aspects, was not cut out to rule a medieval House in that era. 

I agree.

According to who? That is brand new information to me, and sadly I have spent years discussing this subeject. 

I think this is one of the short comings of the feudal system that GRRM is trying to show us and Sam is his example of a good person, but not fit to rule. Since most people think of only bad people needing to be passed over. And we've only seen this happen with the Royal family and it takes a great council. So I agree. While it should be that simple, it's not.

Sure, I don't think anyone has really denied that. But Sam was the oldest son, he was not equipped to be rule in those times and given his reaction to blood and injuries, as well as his frequent giving up when things got too much for him there is little reason for his father to think he would become a Maester. 

It's to bad he and Dickon were so far apart in age. If they weren't Sam could have been sent away when he was young enough to mitigate this risk. But, then GRRM couldn't illustrate how faulty the system is.

Right, Jon made that decision as Sam's best friend. He did not really care about the Watch at that point, his decision was for Sam.

For sure, as a recruit worrying about the whole isn't his responsibility. All he can do is point out what he see's and leave it in the hands of the leaders.

Once Jon is Lord Commander he is no longer that compassionate, he is thinking of the bigger picture, so when he commands everyone to take archery he is not going to care if they hate it or can't learn, they are doing it..

No, and yes. He is still compassionate. He makes note of the danger Satin would be in, if left in the general population. He personally checks on all the recruits and makes note's of their strengths and weaknesses before they are even close to taking their vows, so that he can find the best uses for them. Something Mormont didn't do, as if he had Jon wouldn't have had to talk to Aemon. We see him note that one isn't a good fighter but would be a good builder, for example. But, he does expect them all to train with the bow, and he is thinking of the bigger picture. But that is why he needs to be compassionate. He knows that they need to make the best use of every man they have and you have to understand your men in order to do that.

Tarly snr is also a Lord, he has to make decisions which are best for the the Tarly's and the people of Horn Hill. 

Yes, just unfortunate that he never considered an approach other than punishing to toughen. This approach destroyed Sams self esteem, and made it so he couldn't succeed. He responded very quickly to positive reinforcement, as was given by Aemon, Mormont and Jon. And came about naturally on the march, when he tried to save those who saved him. And with Gilly, who's family gave him a way out of the mutiny at Craster's and a reason to go on. Randyll failed to give him something to fight for.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Azarial said:

It was Dickon who noticed what was happening and knew something needed to be done. Randyll stepped in because Dickon asked him to, and because he didn't want his men to be accused of rape even though he thought she deserved it and equated her to a camp follower.

Dickon was the one to inform his father of the game true, but Randyl himself didn't say he did it for his son, or out of want to avoid accusations of rape to taint the image of his men(to which Tarly could easily dismiss), and his actual words show he views rape as an dishonorable act.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

Three of the younger knights had started it, he told her: Ambrose, Bushy, and Hyle Hunt, of his own household. As word spread through the camp, however, others had joined the game. Each man was required to buy into the contest with a golden dragon, the whole sum to go to whoever claimed her maidenhead.

"I have put an end to their sport," Tarly told her. "Some of these . . . challengers . . . are less honorable than others, and the stakes were growing larger every day. It was only a matter of time before one of them decided to claim the prize by force."

"They were knights," she said, stunned, "anointed knights."

 

Briene is a noblewoman for all intents and purposes even if she's acting ridiculous in Randyl's  eyes, he's honor bound to try to prevent her being raped happening if it is in his power. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Azarial said:

The motivations, make these very different things. One is to try and save the life of a child that is danger, the other is to make someone be manly. That said, this is an example of a decision that I don't think Sam could make. Then a baby would die, and he'd have to live with that. And that is why I agree with what you say below. And I agree with why Randyll did what he did. I just don't agree with his methods.

 

Meh, a baby may still just as we'll die with Jon's plans-seriously, if Stannis does decide to sacrifice the "prince of the wildlings" to get the red God' s blessing, what can Jon actually say that could stop Stannis from sacrificing the son of Craster by mistake? If he just comes out and says the truth it'd look like a lie meant to save the babe. 

[Azarial]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Dickon was the one to inform his father of the game true, but Randyl himself didn't say he did it for his son, or out of want to avoid accusations of rape to taint the image of his men(to which Tarly could easily dismiss), and his actual words show he views rape as an dishonorable act.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

Three of the younger knights had started it, he told her: Ambrose, Bushy, and Hyle Hunt, of his own household. As word spread through the camp, however, others had joined the game. Each man was required to buy into the contest with a golden dragon, the whole sum to go to whoever claimed her maidenhead.

"I have put an end to their sport," Tarly told her. "Some of these . . . challengers . . . are less honorable than others, and the stakes were growing larger every day. It was only a matter of time before one of them decided to claim the prize by force."

"They were knights," she said, stunned, "anointed knights."

 

Briene is a noblewoman for all intents and purposes even if she's acting ridiculous in Randyl's  eyes, he's honor bound to try to prevent her being raped happening if it is in his power. 

 

"Go where you want and do as you will...but when you get raped don't look to me for justice. You will have earned it with your folly."

Or how about the whole quote you started, nice that you left out the part I mentioned. "They were, knights," she said, stunned, "anointed knights."

"And honorable men. The blame is yours."

The accusation made her flinch. "I would never...my lord, I did nought to encourage them."

"Your being here encouraged them. If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one. A war host is no place for a maiden. If you have any regard for your virtue or the honor of your House, you will take off that mail, return home, and beg your father to find a husband for you."

-------

He say's the blame is her's, so he stopped the men for them not her. He said she deserves to be raped. He compares her to a camp follower. It's pretty clear if you don't selectively quote to leave the part I mentioned out.

As for Jon, even if that is true he will have done everything in his power to try and prevent it. Mel, knows the baby was swapped according to Val, and Val asked to have the baby kept with her and since Mel knows it's not the actual baby I don't see her complaining. Add the two Northerners who came to be wet nurses, and all the Free-folk who would protect the baby and burning an infant won't be so easy, because of what Jon did.

[Bernie Mac]

38 minutes ago, Azarial said:

 

He say's the blame is her's, so he stopped the men for them not her.

How is he wrong though, he is not to blame for their fucked up society, but he is bang on the money. If it was not for Randyll, Jaime and Gendry we would have seen the teenage Brienne raped. 

We only have to look at the attitudes to rape in their world are

She had never slept easily in the presence of men. Even in Lord Renly's camps, the risk of rape was always there. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 It had been a close thing, even so, but that was before Zollo hacked his hand off. Zollo and Rorge and Shagwell would have raped her half a hundred times if Ser Jaime had not told them she was worth her weight in sapphires.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister," Ser Creighton was saying. "Even to lay hands upon one . . . it's said they are the Stranger's wives, and their female parts are cold and wet as ice." He glanced at Brienne. "Uh . . . beg pardon."

 

The last one is particularly notable because Crighton is not some monster, he is an old sellsword and his attitude towards rape seems that it is acceptable except if they are religious. 

If he said that in our world we'd rightly think him an ignorant prick, but he is pointing out an obvious truth.  It should also be pointed out that Tarly's daughters are only a few years younger than Brienne. 

Quote

He said she deserves to be raped. He compares her to a camp follower. It's pretty clear if you don't selectively quote to leave the part I mentioned out.

He is also one of the few men who have prevented her being raped and Brienne uses his name to prevent the same fate happening to other women. 

"I know what Lord Randyll does with outlaws," Brienne said. "I know what he does with rapers too."

She had hoped the name might cow them, but the serjeant only flicked egg off his fingers and signaled to his men to spread out. Brienne found herself surrounded by steel points. "What was it you was saying, wench? What is it that Lord Tarly does to . . ."

". . . rapers," a deeper voice finished. "He gelds them or sends them to the Wall. Sometimes both. 

 

Someone's actions should count more than their blunt words we hear second hand. 

 

Plus the words sound flippant, like as if Nan or Cat told Bran "not to come crying to them if he fell off a tower" after he continually ignored their warnings. It is the typical parental response of finally giving up on warning a child over obvious dangers. 

 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

It was Dickon who noticed what was happening and knew something needed to be done. Randyll stepped in because Dickon asked him to, and because he didn't want his men to be accused of rape

No, you are incorrect. Brienne specifically uses his name as a warning to Reach soldiers she thinks are going to rape some of the smallfolk while Hyles Hunt explains how he punishes them. 

Randyll Tarly is not the highest ranking or only commander with the Reach army, plus they are not his men. Mullendore and Beesburry are vassals of the Hightowers, Connington is a Stormland knight sworn to Renly, Farrow, Inchfield, Ambrose and Bushy were all making their bets on Brienne at Highgarden, Tarly only joined after that. 

He didn't stop the rape to look good, he did so because she was a noble teenage daughter and it was the honorable thing to do. 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

 

even though he thought she deserved it and equated her to a camp follower.

Much later, when she continually refuses to listen to his advice. Jaime also councils her on not going into war, though he knows she will ignore it. 

But a warzone is a dangerous place for anybody. 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

This is twisting her words. She said when tired and freezing to death, not at that moment on the march. Clearly all the men will have varying levels of stamina. 

Yes, as far as we know Sam is the only one who was carried. He should have the best stamina by some margin. 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

After resting and he had a horse for part of it. And when he was leading her horse he set the pace. They weren't doing a forced march with Others right on their heels. It's not just the distance, it's the distance, speed and adrenaline combined that got him to his breaking point on the march. These aren't the same thing. Also he wasn't motivated by fear of the other, he was motivated by his desire to save Gilly and the baby.

no, he was quite clearly motivated by the fear of the Other. I have quoted his response to it. 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

 

If Randyll ever wanted to motivate Sam he should have given him something to fight for.

He did. Horn Hill, his own self respect and even a chance to be raised by Lord Redwyne. Sam never once tried for any of these things. 

Even the threat could be seen as a last test to motivate Sam, to see if he was willing to stand up for his father and he chose not to, not only to accept his father's order to go to the Watch but Sam is lacking in the basic skills that he chose to serve when he could have refused the vows and found his own way in the world like all the common folk do. 

 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

 

Fear, for fears sake is a poor motivator. The Lordship wasn't a motivation for him as it was presented. But if someone had told him about all the good you can do for people as a Lord, that might have helped.

That is what their entire society is built on, the Lords ruling for their vassals own good. Tarly snr is one of two nobles we actually see making a positive difference to the people of the Riverlands. He had done more good than any Riverland, Westerland or Northern noble had done for them in the entire series. 

I don't see any evidence that a Lord's responsibilities to the smallfolk was not pointed out to him. He would have had his Luwin equivalent teaching him that shit. 

5 hours ago, Azarial said:

He doesn't see it this way, we're in his head we know what he thinks. Jon's dagger did it. And worry for the innocent. He never considered getting it on with Gilly. The boat was long after this, and she initiated it, and had to persuade him. He doesn't think he vanquished anything.

He does not have to, that is not how the subconscious works, but we only see his confidence grow, quite a bit, after he has face the Other, not before. 

Quote

Jon is unaware of everything but the threat Sams dad made the day he left, so he has no reason to think of him at all.

Why are you telling me this? I was responding to someone who was wrong about what Jon was feeling when Sam talked about being a Maester. 

Quote

This is about what Maester Aemon said, not the threats to the baby, although that does motivate his actions.

it is about the threats to the baby. Jon is thinking the exact same words in the exact same chapter only a few paragraphs before his talk with Sam

"You will make a crow of him." She wiped at her tears with the back of a small pale hand. "I won't. I won't."

Kill the boy, thought Jon. "You will. Else I promise you, the day that they burn Dalla's boy, yours will die as well."

 

This is what is on Jon's mind when he tells Sam he is leaving. 

 

Quote

The motivations, make these very different things. One is to try and save the life of a child that is danger, the other is to make someone be manly. 

They are exactly the same.  Tytos Lannister was weak willed, no one respected him and it almost brought his House to ruin. Sam actually seems weaker and a self confessed coward. Tarly has to think of the good of the house and the people of Horn Hill. His decision to send Sam away was for the good of the House

Quote

It's to bad he and Dickon were so far apart in age.

they can't be that far apart in age. Sam is the same age as Jon while Dickon is already old enough to go to war and be betrothed. 

Quote

Yes, just unfortunate that he never considered an approach other than punishing to toughen.

we don't know that is true. several years of peace and happiness and he had not changed at all. and of the 12 master of arms it is hard to believe not one showed him encouragement. 

 

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Talk about a no win situation.  I am not comfortable giving Sam a hall pass out of training.  Overweight is not a physical disability.  I served with men who had weight issues back in the day.  There's a little coward in all of us.  Sam can learn to be braver if he would only try.  

Treating all students with fairness is important for all instructors and leaders.  Justice demands it.  There are many in the Watch who deserve our sympathy more than Sam.  At least he had a loving mom who took care of him in childhood.  There are less fortunate people who got screwed just as badly as Sam.  

Forcing people into service, like the draft, means you get people who will be unsuitable for the army.  But look on the other side of that coin and you need this kind of involuntary method to get people to serve at the Wall.  The conditions are harsh and you won't get too many interested applicants.  Trying to turn the job into a temporary service like what we've got in the military is not going to work for them because there won't be many job opportunities after service.  The wall is a place to go for bastards like Jon with nothing to inherit.  It also solves the problem of what to do with criminals and gives them a chance to do something useful with their lives instead of getting their heads hacked off, which doesn't do society any good.  I love the proposal to make fitness the first part of training but we're talking the dark ages there. Training your way to fitness is what Sam's teacher believe in.  To me, the longer way is sometimes the better way.  

This is what I suggest.  Take Sam out of the class and put him somewhere hard.  You don't want the other trainees to think Sam got a break.  Hook a plow to Sam and make him work the soil.  I know you can't blame a man for lacking courage but you can blame a man for being lazy.  Give Sam a fair chance to do well at something but make sure it's just as hard as training.  Giving Sam to Aemon is not fair to his class mates.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Azarial said:

As for Jon, even if that is true he will have done everything in his power to try and prevent it. Mel, knows the baby was swapped according to Val, and Val asked to have the baby kept with her and since Mel knows it's not the actual baby I don't see her complaining. Add the two Northerners who came to be wet nurses, and all the Free-folk who would protect the baby and burning an infant won't be so easy, because of what Jon did.

What is true? That if Jon reveals his plans he would be brushed aside as a lie meant to save the babe?  He has no way to confirm that he did in fact switch the babes if it's gotten to the point where Stannis is willingly to give the babe to the fire, he would clearly not stop no matter Jon's protests or proclamations of the boy not being Mance's son-and Jon doesn't think Mel could know such a thing and not inform Stannis. It was faulty plan is all I'm saying. Yes, he's done everything he could think of to try to prevent it clearly, but his overall plan was really weak to achieve his goal of preventing an infant from being burned-truth be told I don't see why Jon wouldn't think lying about the Mance's kid being Craster's wouldn't be just as good.

The free folk have no loyalty to one by virtue of who they're related towards; they've their own families to which they care for, and if Stannis or Melisandre, says the sacrifice would help defeat the ice-zombies I can see many of them opting to simply move aside, and allow the sacrifice to happen as they did with Mance who they actually had reason in their eyes to be loyal to.

I don't see why two wet-nurses would be of any help in preventing anything from being burned.

Mel has displayed no apparent interest in sacrificing any babes. Yet anyway. 

 

4 hours ago, Azarial said:

He say's the blame is her's, so he stopped the men for them not her. He said she deserves to be raped. He compares her to a camp follower. It's pretty clear if you don't selectively quote to leave the part I mentioned out.

I don't really see how the rest of the exchange supports your premise of him doing this for Dickon and so that his own men wouldn't be accused of rape. 

The blame can be seen as being on her by Tarly yet at the same time Tarly would still see it as his responsibilty of a lord, to protect noblewoman from being sexually brutalized, even if she is acting like an idiot and asking for it in his eyes.

To preserve her honor as well as prevent otherwise Honorble men from commiting a shameful act below their station because(in Tarley's mind), of a young foolish girl who doesn't understand her duties as maiden.