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Sam in basic training


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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is what their entire society is built on, the Lords ruling for their vassals own good. Tarly snr is one of two nobles we actually see making a positive difference to the people of the Riverlands. He had done more good than any Riverland, Westerland or Northern noble had done for them in the entire series. 

I don't see any evidence that a Lord's responsibilities to the smallfolk was not pointed out to him. He would have had his Luwin equivalent teaching him that shit. 

This is true, it'd be odd if Sam didn't even see Randyl personally settle disputes among his people, provide them justice.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

they can't be that far apart in age. Sam is the same age as Jon while Dickon is already old enough to go to war and be betrothed

You can bethrothed at any age no? The Wikipedia gives his birthdate between 287-290 ad. I would wager, he's twelve.

 

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16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This is true, it'd be odd if Sam didn't even see Randyl personally settle disputes among his people, provide them justice.

You can bethrothed at any age no?

 

Dickon is 7-8 in feast according to Brienne and Sam is 18-19 I'm just replying in general, so this isn't all directed at Varys. Yours just happened to be the last post.

Yes, he saw but that doesn't mean he perceived it as helping. We saw his form of justice at Maidenpool, and it can be perceived as cruel. I don't care if it's normal in their society, or if people need to be harsher in times of war. Just that seeing justice in that form won't appeal to Sam. Randyll rules with fear, Sam would have had more desire to be Lord if he'd been taught Ned's methods, as an example. And if you say I hate violence and your father goes you will go into the military and become a soldier and you'll love it because of all the fighting and killing, there is no reward. Sam didn't want to be Lord of Horn Hill because he had no desire to be like his father. That doesn't make him lazy. If you don't want to be a Lord like him, being a Lord like him in the end isn't a reward. It's really not a difficult concept. He would have worked hard at something he was suited for, we see this at the wall. He puts will do research for days without even leaving the vault. But as a Lords son he had no option other than Maester, or Lord and since he was the only son at the time when he would have been young enough to become a Maester, thus not have a claim, and Randyll views Maesters as little more than slaves he was forced to train for something he wasn't suited to do. Be a soldier, and rule by fear. Then he was punished when he didn't succeed. The whole system is crap. That's the point. Why are people defending it? Just because that's how it's done doesn't mean it's right. 

Randyll felt that way about Brienne from the start. There is no way all these men, officers and men from his own household guard included, were doing this without him knowing. He reacted because Dickon heard about it and said something. And he likely didn't want his son to see him not doing justice. So he stopped it before anything happened as he didn't want to risk being stuck having castrate his men and send them to wall, as he didn't view it as wrong in Briennes specific case. And that is the punishment Hale says he gives for rape. But he doesn't consider raping her to be rape because she chose to go to war instead of getting married and having kids. He thinks her being raped will teach her her place. I find it really interesting how people will rant about how Tyrion forced the prostitute he paid to have sex with him, but because it's a war zone see nothing wrong with this and are even defending it. War is brutal, but rape is rape even in war. 

Her saying that she know's how he punishes rapers doesn't mean he considers what would have happened to her to warrant that punishment. His own words say that he doesn't. 

As to the guy who said, why did you say this. Because I can agree with you on some points even if I disagree with other points. I don't need to be a jerk and argue over every sentence. But, if you can't grasp that I have zero desire to talk to you.

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2 hours ago, Azarial said:

Dickon is 7-8 in feast according to Brienne and Sam is 18-19 I'm just replying in general, so this isn't all directed at Varys. Yours just happened to be the last post.

She does not see Dickon in AFFC, she has not seen him since the start of the war. 

"They will." Lord Tarly's son. Young Dickon's to be wed. She tried to recall how old he was; eight or ten, she thought.

Though as an aside Podrick Payne is said to be 12 years of age in ACOK, this is very early in the book as Renly is still alive and then more than a year later Brienne considers him to be 10-12 years of age. Brienne, possibly due to her massive height, may not be a great judge of ages. 

Sam turns 15 the day he is sent to the Wall

Until the dawn of his fifteenth name day, when he had been awakened to find his horse saddled and ready. 

There is around 5 years difference in the brothers age, possibly less if Brienne's wrong. 

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Yes, he saw but that doesn't mean he perceived it as helping.

He'd perceive it as doing the right thing. Are we really going to have to argue if stopping a teenage girl from being raped is the 'right thing' to do?

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We saw his form of justice at Maidenpool, and it can be perceived as cruel.

All justice can be perceived as cruel. In the medieval world I'd be amazed if there were many punishments we thought of as not cruel. 

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I don't care if it's normal in their society, or if people need to be harsher in times of war. Just that seeing justice in that form won't appeal to Sam.

You know this how? 

Has Sam ever thought or commented on justice being cruel in the series? 

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Randyll rules with fear,

According to who? name a single character in the series who has claimed that the Tarly's rule with fear? 

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Sam would have had more desire to be Lord if he'd been taught Ned's methods, as an example.

but the Starks rule through fear

Barrowton sent men with the Young Wolf as well. I gave him as few men as I dared, but I knew that I must needs give him some or risk the wroth of Winterfell.

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And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker."

 

How can you say that Ned's vassals are less fearful of him than Randyll's vassals are of him? 

 

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And if you say I hate violence and your father goes you will go into the military and become a soldier and you'll love it because of all the fighting and killing, there is no reward.

I'm sorry, but not a single noble thinks like that. They see it as being the honorable action to take, the age of chivalry required them to serve and protect, it is how they justify to themselves and the smallfolk their position as the 1%. 

They don't see it as about loving violence, but about duty. It is an incredibly small price to pay for the amount of privilege they receive and there is not one of Sam's fellow recruits who would not have swapped places with him. 

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Sam didn't want to be Lord of Horn Hill because he had no desire to be like his father.

Never claims either. In fact he is sending both Gilly and the baby Aemon to his father's protection. I don't think Sam has issues with who his father is, nor do I think he refused to try and fight because he did not want to be a Lord. You are inventing ideas that are not there in the book, and given Sam is a prominent POV character, we would have actual evidence if he actually thought like this. 

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That doesn't make him lazy.

No, him refusing to try makes him lazy. For most of the series he has came across as lazy. He makes excuses to not train, he is carried on part of the journey from the fist, he needs others to motivate him.  He can't motivate himself, that is laziness. 

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If you don't want to be a Lord like him, being a Lord like him in the end isn't a reward.

His entire life as a noble is the reward. He has already received it. 

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It's really not a difficult concept. He would have worked hard at something he was suited for, we see this at the wall.

We have rarely seen him work hard. He enjoys reading, so he reads. That is not working hard, that is landing on your feet.

There is zero evidence he would have worked hard to become a Maester. 

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He puts will do research for days without even leaving the vault.

No, he does not eat, drink or sleep for days? Of course he does. 

What else is there for him to do, he hates to do everything else and loves to read, he skirts his other responsibilities to spend more time doing something he loves.

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 But as a Lords son he had no option other than Maester, or Lord and since he was the only son at the time when he would have been young enough to become a Maester, thus not have a claim, and Randyll views Maesters as little more than slaves he was forced to train for something he wasn't suited to do. Be a soldier,

not even that. Sam's problem is not that he was fat, or not that he was not a gifted warrior, it was his refusal to try. His crawling down and allowing himself to be beat to get it over and done with as quick as possible. 

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and rule by fear.

As I said before, can we get some evidence on the Tarly's ruling through fear? 

Hyles Hunt is a vassal and he had no problem risking Tarly's wrath by accompanying Brienne. 

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Then he was punished when he didn't succeed. The whole system is crap. That's the point. Why are people defending it? Just because that's how it's done doesn't mean it's right. 

Because they don't know any better. You can't really blame individuals when their entire society has taught them to behave like that. 

You won't find a single person who says the way Sam was treated should be the norm now, they are pointing out that Randyll did not have a whole lot of alternative options on how to deal with a rare case like Sam. However the fact that he went through 12 different Master of Arms and brought in 'specialists' all the way from Quarth shows he was willing to do methods he did not agree with in a bid to help his son. 

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Randyll felt that way about Brienne from the start.

Felt what way? That a nineteen year old noble girl should not be at war? Yes, obviously, I gather the vast majority of people think that about her. That is why she is looked upon as a freak. 

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There is no way all these men, officers and men from his own household guard included, were doing this without him knowing.

They were not. The bet started at Highgarden, when Renly is married and crowned, Renly then moves on to Horn Hill (it is where he hears of Stannis being crowned) and we are told by Brienne that Randyll intervenes 'later'. He was not around when then betting first began, but he quickly, unlike the other prominent Lords, put an end to it.  This is to his credit. 

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He reacted because Dickon heard about it and said something.

Of course. Dickon has clearly been raised well. I'm not sure why you think this counts against Randyll. 

Brienne does the exact same thing Dickon does when she hears of some soldiers threatening smallfolk with rape, she threatens to report it to Tarly knowing he will punish it. Hyles Hunt, one of Tarly's captains comes onto the scene and explains what Tarly does to such rapists, he gelds them and sends them to the wall.

Some noble lords look the other way or even encourage it, we see Westerland and Northmen alike raping in the Riverlands.  Randyll has one of the best records when it comes to punishing rape in the books. 

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And he likely didn't want his son to see him not doing justice.

He likely did not want to see anyone seeing him not doing justice. It seems to be a hallmark of his character, someone who desires order. 

He does not have to like Brienne to stop her from being raped, but he did and he is noteworthy for how he deals with rapists. 

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So he stopped it before anything happened as he didn't want to risk being stuck having castrate his men and send them to wall, as he didn't view it as wrong in Briennes specific case.

Except they were not his men. 

You are desperate to find a possible scenario were Randyll is somehow the bad guy for saving Brienne from being raped. 

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And that is the punishment Hale says he gives for rape. But he doesn't consider raping her to be rape because she chose to go to war instead of getting married and having kids.

You know you could have stopped simply at going to war. Women are not expected to become knights and fight in wars. That is not the misogynistic views of Randyll Tarly but the misogynistic views of their society. Connington, Jaime, Loras and others all regard her as a freak. 

"No." Willow was staring at her, in a way that she knew well. "They're just . . . I don't know . . . the sparrows bring them here, sometimes. Others find their own way. If you're a woman, why are you dressed up like a man?"

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The merchant considered her doubtfully. "My lady, you should be safe at home. Why do you wear such unnatural garb?"

She is viewed in their society exactly the same way if Robb Stark wore a dress and decided he was going to be a Lady.  

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He thinks her being raped will teach her her place.

Not really, her place in society is ruined once she is raped. Noble women who are raped tend to have few opportunities and tend to end up as a silent sister. 

He has tried to stop her from being raped, he, like Jaime and Brienne herself, are fully aware of what will happen to her in the warzone. He is just tired of being ignored. 

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I find it really interesting how people will rant about how Tyrion forced the prostitute he paid to have sex with him, but because it's a war zone see nothing wrong with this and are even defending it. War is brutal, but rape is rape even in war. 

eh? Randyll has not raped anyone, he has not asked anyone to rape Brienne, he has told her that the warzone is unsafe, he has made sure that there is some distance between his soldiers and Brienne. 

How is Tarly at fault here? 

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Her saying that she know's how he punishes rapers doesn't mean he considers what would have happened to her to warrant that punishment. His own words say that he doesn't. 

No, he is pointing out the realities of war. He is not telling her anything she does not already know

She had never slept easily in the presence of men. Even in Lord Renly's camps, the risk of rape was always there. It was a lesson she had learned beneath the walls of Highgarden, and again when she and Jaime had fallen into the hands of the Brave Companions.

But obviously he would rather she went home and not be raped. 

 

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

She does not see Dickon in AFFC, she has not seen him since the start of the war. 

"They will." Lord Tarly's son. Young Dickon's to be wed. She tried to recall how old he was; eight or ten, she thought.

Though as an aside Podrick Payne is said to be 12 years of age in ACOK, this is very early in the book as Renly is still alive and then more than a year later Brienne considers him to be 10-12 years of age. Brienne, possibly due to her massive height, may not be a great judge of ages. 

Sam turns 15 the day he is sent to the Wall

Until the dawn of his fifteenth name day, when he had been awakened to find his horse saddled and ready. 

There is around 5 years difference in the brothers age, possibly less if Brienne's wrong. 

He'd perceive it as doing the right thing. Are we really going to have to argue if stopping a teenage girl from being raped is the 'right thing' to do?

All justice can be perceived as cruel. In the medieval world I'd be amazed if there were many punishments we thought of as not cruel. 

You know this how? 

Has Sam ever thought or commented on justice being cruel in the series? 

According to who? name a single character in the series who has claimed that the Tarly's rule with fear? 

but the Starks rule through fear

Barrowton sent men with the Young Wolf as well. I gave him as few men as I dared, but I knew that I must needs give him some or risk the wroth of Winterfell.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And when Lord Umber, who was called the Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker."

 

How can you say that Ned's vassals are less fearful of him than Randyll's vassals are of him? 

 

I'm sorry, but not a single noble thinks like that. They see it as being the honorable action to take, the age of chivalry required them to serve and protect, it is how they justify to themselves and the smallfolk their position as the 1%. 

They don't see it as about loving violence, but about duty. It is an incredibly small price to pay for the amount of privilege they receive and there is not one of Sam's fellow recruits who would not have swapped places with him. 

Never claims either. In fact he is sending both Gilly and the baby Aemon to his father's protection. I don't think Sam has issues with who his father is, nor do I think he refused to try and fight because he did not want to be a Lord. You are inventing ideas that are not there in the book, and given Sam is a prominent POV character, we would have actual evidence if he actually thought like this. 

No, him refusing to try makes him lazy. For most of the series he has came across as lazy. He makes excuses to not train, he is carried on part of the journey from the fist, he needs others to motivate him.  He can't motivate himself, that is laziness. 

His entire life as a noble is the reward. He has already received it. 

We have rarely seen him work hard. He enjoys reading, so he reads. That is not working hard, that is landing on your feet.

There is zero evidence he would have worked hard to become a Maester. 

No, he does not eat, drink or sleep for days? Of course he does. 

What else is there for him to do, he hates to do everything else and loves to read, he skirts his other responsibilities to spend more time doing something he loves.

not even that. Sam's problem is not that he was fat, or not that he was not a gifted warrior, it was his refusal to try. His crawling down and allowing himself to be beat to get it over and done with as quick as possible. 

As I said before, can we get some evidence on the Tarly's ruling through fear? 

Hyles Hunt is a vassal and he had no problem risking Tarly's wrath by accompanying Brienne. 

Because they don't know any better. You can't really blame individuals when their entire society has taught them to behave like that. 

You won't find a single person who says the way Sam was treated should be the norm now, they are pointing out that Randyll did not have a whole lot of alternative options on how to deal with a rare case like Sam. However the fact that he went through 12 different Master of Arms and brought in 'specialists' all the way from Quarth shows he was willing to do methods he did not agree with in a bid to help his son. 

Felt what way? That a nineteen year old noble girl should not be at war? Yes, obviously, I gather the vast majority of people think that about her. That is why she is looked upon as a freak. 

They were not. The bet started at Highgarden, when Renly is married and crowned, Renly then moves on to Horn Hill (it is where he hears of Stannis being crowned) and we are told by Brienne that Randyll intervenes 'later'. He was not around when then betting first began, but he quickly, unlike the other prominent Lords, put an end to it.  This is to his credit. 

Of course. Dickon has clearly been raised well. I'm not sure why you think this counts against Randyll. 

Brienne does the exact same thing Dickon does when she hears of some soldiers threatening smallfolk with rape, she threatens to report it to Tarly knowing he will punish it. Hyles Hunt, one of Tarly's captains comes onto the scene and explains what Tarly does to such rapists, he gelds them and sends them to the wall.

Some noble lords look the other way or even encourage it, we see Westerland and Northmen alike raping in the Riverlands.  Randyll has one of the best records when it comes to punishing rape in the books. 

He likely did not want to see anyone seeing him not doing justice. It seems to be a hallmark of his character, someone who desires order. 

He does not have to like Brienne to stop her from being raped, but he did and he is noteworthy for how he deals with rapists. 

Except they were not his men. 

You are desperate to find a possible scenario were Randyll is somehow the bad guy for saving Brienne from being raped. 

You know you could have stopped simply at going to war. Women are not expected to become knights and fight in wars. That is not the misogynistic views of Randyll Tarly but the misogynistic views of their society. Connington, Jaime, Loras and others all regard her as a freak. 

"No." Willow was staring at her, in a way that she knew well. "They're just . . . I don't know . . . the sparrows bring them here, sometimes. Others find their own way. If you're a woman, why are you dressed up like a man?"

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The merchant considered her doubtfully. "My lady, you should be safe at home. Why do you wear such unnatural garb?"

She is viewed in their society exactly the same way if Robb Stark wore a dress and decided he was going to be a Lady.  

Not really, her place in society is ruined once she is raped. Noble women who are raped tend to have few opportunities and tend to end up as a silent sister. 

He has tried to stop her from being raped, he, like Jaime and Brienne herself, are fully aware of what will happen to her in the warzone. He is just tired of being ignored. 

eh? Randyll has not raped anyone, he has not asked anyone to rape Brienne, he has told her that the warzone is unsafe, he has made sure that there is some distance between his soldiers and Brienne. 

How is Tarly at fault here? 

No, he is pointing out the realities of war. He is not telling her anything she does not already know

She had never slept easily in the presence of men. Even in Lord Renly's camps, the risk of rape was always there. It was a lesson she had learned beneath the walls of Highgarden, and again when she and Jaime had fallen into the hands of the Brave Companions.

But obviously he would rather she went home and not be raped. 

 

So they are 5-7 years apart. That just makes it worse, as Sam was young enough to become a Maester, or a Septon. Given that he liked reading and singing, and has high empathy Septon may have been the best fit for him, and the removal of the claim would have been instant by him being given to the faith wouldn't it? I know that is the case with the high Septon, and silent sisters but honestly don't remember for normal septons. 

I was giving hypothetical examples based off something we were already discussing to illustrate a point based on what we know of a character. I didn't mean in world or how lords would view it. Simply, if you say you hate____ and I make you train to do something related to that, with the reward being  you get the thing you hate, that there is no reward as you would view that reward as a negative. So Sam becoming Lord of Hornhill isn't a reward, as he doesn't want to be a Lord, and knows he'd make a bad one. 

 I never said Randyll raped anybody, or would. But we are told by him that Brienne deserves it. We clearly interpret his form of justice and things he says in regards to Brienne differently and I don't see us agreeing and I don't see the point in going in circles. But I also said that what I was saying was based on Sam and how he is, not based on how things normally work in the south. And since this is a thread about Sam how about we agree to disagree on Brienne and get back to the topic of thread? 

As for how Sam would see Ned as apposed to Randyll? For the crimes we see Ned would offer a choice. We are told that, and his preference is for them to go to the wall. We also never hear of him maiming people. Would Sam like the beheading part, especially the expectation that you do it yourself? No, but I said he'd do better with that system not that he'd fully like it. Randyll prefers to wash prostitutes with lye and toss them in a cell if a client gives them an STD, can you really see Ned doing something like that? How they handle justice is different, it would be seen by Sam as different. One form of justice he has to have peoples fingers cut off, or castrate people, the other isn't actually any worse than our modern day prisons as they get to be social, and be active, and go out into the woods etc. They actually have freedoms prisoners today don't have. But they have to work very hard for that, although the small folk have to work very hard regardless, so there's that. (And yes, I know that some are wrongly accused. That 'stealing' a deer hunted in the woods because your family was starving doesn't deserve a life sentence.) But compared to having a hand chopped off, hung, castrated or thrown in a dungeon, where three of those are also for 'life' (admittedly a short one for those being hung) the wall doesn't seem so bad. Again, not a value call on one way is better, just more likely for someone like Sam to be able to view it as more positive. As cutting the hand off of someone who is starving isn't really helping now is it? And we've seen how the Lannisters and the Boltons treat the small folk for example.  I'd take the wall over being a small folk under either of them. So while the lords are supposed to protect and care for them, we've been shown that many of them don't really do that and Sam is smart enough that he would see that and it would bother him. But, he's not strong enough to fight for change. He would make a bad Lord for that reason, but a good adviser. 

Barbery never says what wrath would equal and we are given no examples from Randyll on this either so can't compare. But not responding to a military summons from your liege would be viewed by both as treason. But, when I said ruled with fear I meant the small folk, not the lesser lords. It's like Robert vs Stannis, Robert earned peoples love and respect. Stannis demanded it. In times of war you need the Randylls and the Stannis's I never said otherwise. But, Sam is gentle, and wouldn't be able to act like either of those two.

I have two kids, and I used to work in an elementary school and you can tell a kids basic nature from the time they are infants. By the time they are 5-7 you know exactly what kind of kid you have. Taking a kid that is very sensitive, and gentle and expecting them to be a warrior just isn't going to work. It is a fault with the feudal system. Randyll, failed to notice who Sam was, and attributed it to him spending to much time with his mother and sisters. Then he tried to toughen him up, but because Sam is a very gentle and sensitive person it backfired. Then Randyll tried harder, and Sam eventually broke. By today's standards it was abuse and I do think he really damaged Sam. But, I also think he believed he was doing what was right. The thing is though, it was abuse even if he didn't intend it to be, and it damaged Sam and his self esteem to the point where he fears men in power.

We see this by his stuttering, and shaking when asked simple questions in book one. But, that doesn't make Sam lazy. That makes him a very damaged boy that needed time to recover, and someone to believe in him. And yes, Randyll hired all sorts of people to train him, but he hired them to make him tough. So he would have hired hard men and likely told them not to coddle him. We see enough of Randyll to know he wasn't going have his son trained gently, there is nothing gentle about that man. So Sam never would have known a supportive man other than, perhaps, his Maester. This may be why he asked to become a Maester, and why Maester Aemon is the one male authority figure he seems fully comfortable with. 

He becomes stronger and attached to Jon, because when they met Jon sat and talked with him, and showed emotional vulnerability by telling him of the dream that scared him. Then the other boys started to accept him, without expecting him to be something he's not. He still trained every day. He picked up a sword and had to swing it, he didn't get a free pass as is implied by some people. He just wasn't being beaten anymore. That is when he started to become stronger. We see less stuttering, less hesitation, and strength in him long before he goes ranging. Was he a great fighter? Heck no. But leaving him alone with Alliser wouldn't have changed that and that was Jon's point. I'd have been fine with him being sent to Eastwatch to man the oars for a while to not have him be seen as getting a free pass, and I've no doubt Jon would be fine with it to as his concern was Sam being beaten to death, as he'd never be a warrior. His thoughts don't indicate that he thought Sam should be coddled. We see Sam do this later and it did him a lot of good. But, it was up to Aemon and Mormont where to put him. 

Jon almost ran him over with his horse when he tried to join Robb, but Sam stood his ground till the last second, then went and got other people and rode after him. Then argued with him when he found him. So no, it wasn't facing the Other. Sam from day one wouldn't have been able to stand up to Jon and go to other boys for help. The actions he took here aren't the actions of someone who is lazy either. He took action, on his own, for the good of someone else when it could have gotten him hurt or executed. He was motivated to take that risk because he knows that Jon stuck his neck out for him in the past and his actions would get him killed. He also does everything that is asked of him in his duties as Aemon's Steward. We never hear him complain. Not having high stamina, not being as physically strong as someone else doesn't make someone lazy. Being afraid and cowering isn't the same as being lazy. If their is a spider, and one person is deathly afraid of spiders and someone else has to squash the spider for them, that doesn't mean they were to lazy to squash the spider. Sam being afraid to fight doesn't mean he's to lazy to fight. Fear doesn't = lazy. 

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1 hour ago, Azarial said:

So they are 5-7 years apart. That just makes it worse, as Sam was young enough to become a Maester, or a Septon. Given that he liked reading and singing,

If that was all those two positions entailed then you'd have a point, but they don't. they are hard roles that require lots of work. Maesters, tend to the sick, deliver babies, accompany lords at war in some cases. Septon's lives are not easy either as we see from Meribald.  Even being an acolyte is hard work, as we see from Pate's five years spent as basically a servant. 

These positions have far more responsibilities than just singing and reading, in many respects the nobility would actually see them as involving more work than less. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

and has high empathy Septon may have been the best fit for him,

like most of the population he has empathy for the people he likes, we really don't see it for the people he does not like. he never feels bad about taking Chett's job, the only daughter of Craster he is interested in having Jon save is the one he is attracted to, his whole reason for conning Mallister and Pyke is to install a LC, Jon, who would be good for him and his best friend. 

he, like all of us, has empathy, not sure it is any higher than the average citizen. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

and the removal of the claim would have been instant by him being given to the faith wouldn't it? I know that is the case with the high Septon, and silent sisters but honestly don't remember for normal septons. 

grrm has never gone into it, but there are levels below being a septon, such as a begging brother, so I don't think being promised to the faith means you become a septon, like all things in life you actually have to prove yourself worthy.  though we do know that you can leave the faith or be expelled. 

if i'm honest, there is probably not a lot of difference between the Watch pre AGOT and being promised to the faith, most of the watch members are builders, farmers or hunters on the south side of the wall, the life would be similar to that of many septons we see who have tend their monasteries and lands. the big difference is one is for life.

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

I was giving hypothetical examples based off something we were already discussing to illustrate a point based on what we know of a character. I didn't mean in world or how lords would view it. Simply, if you say you hate____ and I make you train to do something related to that, with the reward being  you get the thing you hate, that there is no reward as you would view that reward as a negative. So Sam becoming Lord of Hornhill isn't a reward, as he doesn't want to be a Lord, and knows he'd make a bad one. 

but it is a reward, having a noble last name in Westeros is hitting the reward jackpot. he has already received his reward and by rejecting his noble responsibilities he is no longer entitled to these rewards. 

Sam was free to leave the watch before he made his vows, he chose to stay as the watch offers him more security than being a peasant does. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 I never said Randyll raped anybody, or would. But we are told by him that Brienne deserves it.

well, no, we are not. we get told second hand by the flippant Hyles Hunt, that she would benefit from it. these words on their own would be bad, but we have context on the situation, Tarly is the one person who has continuously warned her about the dangers of warzones and she has continually ignored him. it seems the only way she is going to learn is through the experience. 

 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

We clearly interpret his form of justice and things he says in regards to Brienne differently and I don't see us agreeing and I don't see the point in going in circles. But I also said that what I was saying was based on Sam and how he is, not based on how things normally work in the south. And since this is a thread about Sam how about we agree to disagree on Brienne and get back to the topic of thread? 

I was not the one who brought up Brienne into this conversation, i have simply responded to other, like yourself, who did. if you don't want to mention her then don't. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

As for how Sam would see Ned as apposed to Randyll? For the crimes we see Ned would offer a choice.

no, what choice was Gared offered?  or Jorah? or Clegane? 

 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

We are told that, and his preference is for them to go to the wall. We also never hear of him maiming people.

he chopped Gared's head off. is that no longer maiming? 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

Would Sam like the beheading part, especially the expectation that you do it yourself? No, but I said he'd do better with that system not that he'd fully like it.

that system is no different to Tarly's. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 Randyll prefers to wash prostitutes with lye and toss them in a cell if a client gives them an STD,

You do realize lye, in that era, is what they call soap, right? cersei bathes in it.  and he is stopping more people getting infected, is he not. 

Brienne clearly does not have a problem with his punishments. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

can you really see Ned doing something like that?

In a warzone where he is trying to restore order, certainly. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

 How they handle justice is different, it would be seen by Sam as different.

Citation?

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

One form of justice he has to have peoples fingers cut off, or castrate people, the other isn't actually any worse than our modern day prisons as they get to be social, and be active, and go out into the woods etc.

yup, gared was still incredibly active without his head, was he not? 

and you are missing the point, they are all given that choice, all the lords not just Tarly but men like Mallister

Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night's Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters' own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters' own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand

though it should be noted that of the three people he deals with only one of them was maimed, you are reacting like that is the only form of punishment he knows. and the one who was maimed did not just steal, but stole from the Faith. 

 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

They actually have freedoms prisoners today don't have. But they have to work very hard for that, although the small folk have to work very hard regardless, so there's that. (And yes, I know that some are wrongly accused. That 'stealing' a deer hunted in the woods because your family was starving doesn't deserve a life sentence.) But compared to having a hand chopped off, hung, castrated or thrown in a dungeon, where three of those are also for 'life' (admittedly a short one for those being hung) the wall doesn't seem so bad.

you are being ridiculous, the very first person we see Ned dispense justice to loses their head, with no choice in the matter. 

though i find it interesting how you no longer think the Wall is that bad, Sam being sent there is not that harsh after all, right? 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

Again, not a value call on one way is better, just more likely for someone like Sam to be able to view it as more positive.

you have provided zero evidence that they dispense with justice any differently. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

As cutting the hand off of someone who is starving isn't really helping now is it?

and cutting of Gared's head is? 

and was the theif starving? he does not make the claim, but it is not just about him being a theif, it is about him stealing from the faith

though i find this argument to be very disingenuous, Tarly does not maim every criminal any more than Ned chop's their head off. Every crime would be judged differently.

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

And we've seen how the Lannisters and the Boltons treat the small folk for example.

How is the average smallfolk treated by them?  

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

  I'd take the wall over being a small folk under either of them.

lol no you would not. the average farmer in either of those lands would not pick to be at the wall instead. you are being ridiculous now. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

So while the lords are supposed to protect and care for them, we've been shown that many of them don't really do that and Sam is smart enough that he would see that and it would bother him. But, he's not strong enough to fight for change. He would make a bad Lord for that reason, but a good adviser. 

where is all this coming from? Sam has been a POV for the majority of the series and not once has he claimed any of the above, this is all your own fanfacition with nothing to do with Sam. 

we actually know from Brienne how seriously Tarly takes his responsibilities to the smallfolk

When last she had seen Maidenpool, the town had been a desolation, a grim place of empty streets and burned homes. Now the streets were full of pigs and children, and most of the burned buildings had been pulled down. Vegetables had been planted in the lots where some once stood; merchant's tents and knight's pavilions took the place of others. Brienne saw new houses going up, a stone inn rising where a wooden inn had burned, a new slate roof on the town sept. The cool autumn air rang to the sounds of saw and hammer. Men carried timber through the streets, and quarrymen drove their wagons down muddy lanes. Many wore the striding huntsman on their br**sts. "The soldiers are rebuilding the town," she said, surprised.

"They would sooner be dicing, drinking, and f**king, I don't doubt, but Lord Randyll believes in putting idle men to work."

 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

Barbery never says what wrath would equal

do you not understand what wroth means, it is to do something out of fear. you claimed the Stark's don't inspire fear, it was incredibly easy to find evidence that you were mistaken. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

and we are given no examples from Randyll on this either so can't compare.

and yet your argument was stating that Randyll only rules through fear while the Starks do not. Clearly your argument was flawed. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

But not responding to a military summons from your liege would be viewed by both as treason.

Robb's not his liege lord, he is not even the Castellan of the North in Ned's absence, however you are getting away from your own point, quite clearly the Starks, like any other lord, use fear to get their vassals to obey. House Stark is no different from the rest. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

But, when I said ruled with fear I meant the small folk, not the lesser lords.

excellent, prove that the smallfolk are less fearful of the Starks than they are the Tarlys. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

It's like Robert vs Stannis, Robert earned peoples love and respect. Stannis demanded it. In times of war you need the Randylls and the Stannis's I never said otherwise. But, Sam is gentle, and wouldn't be able to act like either of those two.

He would not be able to act like Renly either, a man who Randyll loved. there is clearly more than two ways to rule, but Sam did not look capable doing so. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 Randyll, failed to notice who Sam was,

nope, you are incorrect, he clearly noticed, he was trying to make him better equipped to rule, something that would both benefit Sam and their House. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

We see this by his stuttering, and shaking when asked simple questions in book one. But, that doesn't make Sam lazy.

no, him being lazy makes him lazy. refusing to try is being lazy, and that was Sam's biggest problem, his refusal to try, his innate laziness at doing things he does not want to do. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

That makes him a very damaged boy that needed time to recover, and someone to believe in him.

he had several years of that, his mother and sisters all believed in him and his father left him alone, it did not work. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

And yes, Randyll hired all sorts of people to train him, but he hired them to make him tough.

he hired them to make his son stop giving up. 

making him wear his mothers clothes is not making him tough, it is designed to have him grow a backbone and refuse rather than accept it. there is nothing hard about wearing a dress, but this shows that there were many different methods used and not all them were physical. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

 So he would have hired hard men and likely told them not to coddle him. We see enough of Randyll to know he wasn't going have his son trained gently, there is nothing gentle about that man.

he gave Sam several years of peace, did he not? clearly there are gentle parts in his House which he allows. Sam describes his family as loving, would that really be the case if there was nothing 'gentle' about the patriarch. 

 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

 So Sam never would have known a supportive man other than, perhaps, his Maester. 

you are guessing here, with no evidence to show for it. Hyles Hunt is supportive to Brienne, is he not, and he is a Household knight. 

it would be more than just the Maester who would be supportive to the heir of Horn Hill, it is in their own best interests to do so given Randyll could die young like many Lords do, like Randyll's own father likely did. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

He becomes stronger and attached to Jon, because when they met Jon sat and talked with him, and showed emotional vulnerability by telling him of the dream that scared him.

Jon could only identify with the other noble in his class. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

Then the other boys started to accept him, without expecting him to be something he's not.

Jon threatened them with his direwolf. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

He still trained every day. He picked up a sword and had to swing it, he didn't get a free pass as is implied by some people.

he was not even doing the bare minimum. he was capable of doing more, as we see when he beat the shit out of the smaller and drunk Dareon for having the nerve to spend the money he had earned through his singing. 

1 hour ago, Azarial said:

 

He just wasn't being beaten anymore. That is when he started to become stronger.

no, it is not, he was still weak, it is only after the wights and the other does he become stronger. 

 

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We can all agree that Samwell is craven.  At least he was when he came to the wall.  I suppose he has grown up a little since then.  A little kick in the keister is not a bad thing for Sam to experience.  This saga of an unfit man-boy getting coerced to enlist at the wall is George Martin's jab at the military draft.  I have a feeling that no matter the opinions we write here, George Martin has his own opinion on the matter and whatever we want or not want, the author will be kind to Samwell.

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My apologies for the delay in responding. @Azarial has already done an excellent job of addressing many of your points (and I would very much like to see you address the main thesis of his/her latest post: fear =/= laziness. Most of what you call laziness (being unwilling to try to get better at fighting, specifically) is actually fear, brought on by years of being taught in ways that range from harsh to downright abusive.

One specific point that I still need to address myself:

On 6/13/2018 at 2:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

Under normal circumstances, there's nothing preventing a lord from naming his younger son heir, when the older son is training at the Citadel to become a Maester.

According to who? That is brand new information to me, and sadly I have spent years discussing this subeject. 

If Robb can name his bastard brother heir to his throne, and all it takes is for it to be in writing and for it to be witnessed, there's absolutely no reason why a lord can't do the same for his younger legitimate son. Sam might contest it... but if Randyll ever worried that Sam would ever try to contest Dickon's claim, he's even more of an idiot than I thought he was.

Sam is ill-suited for lordship. You've said as much, and so have I. My entire point has been that, when you have a square peg, and a round peg, and a round hole, you put the round peg in the round hole and send the square one out to look for a square hole. You do not beat the square peg into pieces until it's no longer suitable for any hole whatsoever. :\

Some time ago, you said something along the lines of, "I get it; you're determined that Randyll is the villain." By this same token, after seeing so much determination to see Sam's fearful avoidance as laziness, in spite of all the examples @Azarial has given of how Sam has shown that he's stronger and braver and more worthwhile than he believes he is (which instantly leads one to wonder why he believes he is so worthless in the first place), you continue to write him off as "lazy," when, in fact, he's a pretty hard worker when it comes to anything that doesn't absolutely terrify him.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If that was all those two positions entailed then you'd have a point, but they don't. they are hard roles that require lots of work. Maesters, tend to the sick, deliver babies, accompany lords at war in some cases. Septon's lives are not easy either as we see from Meribald.  Even being an acolyte is hard work, as we see from Pate's five years spent as basically a servant. 

These positions have far more responsibilities than just singing and reading, in many respects the nobility would actually see them as involving more work than less. 

like most of the population he has empathy for the people he likes, we really don't see it for the people he does not like. he never feels bad about taking Chett's job, the only daughter of Craster he is interested in having Jon save is the one he is attracted to, his whole reason for conning Mallister and Pyke is to install a LC, Jon, who would be good for him and his best friend. 

he, like all of us, has empathy, not sure it is any higher than the average citizen. 

grrm has never gone into it, but there are levels below being a septon, such as a begging brother, so I don't think being promised to the faith means you become a septon, like all things in life you actually have to prove yourself worthy.  though we do know that you can leave the faith or be expelled. 

if i'm honest, there is probably not a lot of difference between the Watch pre AGOT and being promised to the faith, most of the watch members are builders, farmers or hunters on the south side of the wall, the life would be similar to that of many septons we see who have tend their monasteries and lands. the big difference is one is for life.

but it is a reward, having a noble last name in Westeros is hitting the reward jackpot. he has already received his reward and by rejecting his noble responsibilities he is no longer entitled to these rewards. 

Sam was free to leave the watch before he made his vows, he chose to stay as the watch offers him more security than being a peasant does. 

well, no, we are not. we get told second hand by the flippant Hyles Hunt, that she would benefit from it. these words on their own would be bad, but we have context on the situation, Tarly is the one person who has continuously warned her about the dangers of warzones and she has continually ignored him. it seems the only way she is going to learn is through the experience. 

 

I was not the one who brought up Brienne into this conversation, i have simply responded to other, like yourself, who did. if you don't want to mention her then don't. 

no, what choice was Gared offered?  or Jorah? or Clegane? 

 

he chopped Gared's head off. is that no longer maiming? 

that system is no different to Tarly's. 

You do realize lye, in that era, is what they call soap, right? cersei bathes in it.  and he is stopping more people getting infected, is he not. 

Brienne clearly does not have a problem with his punishments. 

In a warzone where he is trying to restore order, certainly. 

Citation?

yup, gared was still incredibly active without his head, was he not? 

and you are missing the point, they are all given that choice, all the lords not just Tarly but men like Mallister

Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night's Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters' own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters' own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand

though it should be noted that of the three people he deals with only one of them was maimed, you are reacting like that is the only form of punishment he knows. and the one who was maimed did not just steal, but stole from the Faith. 

 

you are being ridiculous, the very first person we see Ned dispense justice to loses their head, with no choice in the matter. 

though i find it interesting how you no longer think the Wall is that bad, Sam being sent there is not that harsh after all, right? 

you have provided zero evidence that they dispense with justice any differently. 

and cutting of Gared's head is? 

and was the theif starving? he does not make the claim, but it is not just about him being a theif, it is about him stealing from the faith

though i find this argument to be very disingenuous, Tarly does not maim every criminal any more than Ned chop's their head off. Every crime would be judged differently.

How is the average smallfolk treated by them?  

lol no you would not. the average farmer in either of those lands would not pick to be at the wall instead. you are being ridiculous now. 

where is all this coming from? Sam has been a POV for the majority of the series and not once has he claimed any of the above, this is all your own fanfacition with nothing to do with Sam. 

we actually know from Brienne how seriously Tarly takes his responsibilities to the smallfolk

When last she had seen Maidenpool, the town had been a desolation, a grim place of empty streets and burned homes. Now the streets were full of pigs and children, and most of the burned buildings had been pulled down. Vegetables had been planted in the lots where some once stood; merchant's tents and knight's pavilions took the place of others. Brienne saw new houses going up, a stone inn rising where a wooden inn had burned, a new slate roof on the town sept. The cool autumn air rang to the sounds of saw and hammer. Men carried timber through the streets, and quarrymen drove their wagons down muddy lanes. Many wore the striding huntsman on their br**sts. "The soldiers are rebuilding the town," she said, surprised.

"They would sooner be dicing, drinking, and f**king, I don't doubt, but Lord Randyll believes in putting idle men to work."

 

do you not understand what wroth means, it is to do something out of fear. you claimed the Stark's don't inspire fear, it was incredibly easy to find evidence that you were mistaken. 

and yet your argument was stating that Randyll only rules through fear while the Starks do not. Clearly your argument was flawed. 

Robb's not his liege lord, he is not even the Castellan of the North in Ned's absence, however you are getting away from your own point, quite clearly the Starks, like any other lord, use fear to get their vassals to obey. House Stark is no different from the rest. 

excellent, prove that the smallfolk are less fearful of the Starks than they are the Tarlys. 

He would not be able to act like Renly either, a man who Randyll loved. there is clearly more than two ways to rule, but Sam did not look capable doing so. 

nope, you are incorrect, he clearly noticed, he was trying to make him better equipped to rule, something that would both benefit Sam and their House. 

no, him being lazy makes him lazy. refusing to try is being lazy, and that was Sam's biggest problem, his refusal to try, his innate laziness at doing things he does not want to do. 

he had several years of that, his mother and sisters all believed in him and his father left him alone, it did not work. 

he hired them to make his son stop giving up. 

making him wear his mothers clothes is not making him tough, it is designed to have him grow a backbone and refuse rather than accept it. there is nothing hard about wearing a dress, but this shows that there were many different methods used and not all them were physical. 

he gave Sam several years of peace, did he not? clearly there are gentle parts in his House which he allows. Sam describes his family as loving, would that really be the case if there was nothing 'gentle' about the patriarch. 

 

you are guessing here, with no evidence to show for it. Hyles Hunt is supportive to Brienne, is he not, and he is a Household knight. 

it would be more than just the Maester who would be supportive to the heir of Horn Hill, it is in their own best interests to do so given Randyll could die young like many Lords do, like Randyll's own father likely did. 

Jon could only identify with the other noble in his class. 

Jon threatened them with his direwolf. 

he was not even doing the bare minimum. he was capable of doing more, as we see when he beat the shit out of the smaller and drunk Dareon for having the nerve to spend the money he had earned through his singing. 

no, it is not, he was still weak, it is only after the wights and the other does he become stronger. 

 

Great, you showed Ned doing justice as Warden of the North, and hand of the king, where he deals with punishing Lords and two of those were showing him punishing lords for their mistreatment of the small folk. So Ned punishes Lords who mistreat the small folk. 

If Randyll is the same and if the punishment of the prostitute was to prevent the spread of disease as you claim, you won't mind quoting the part where the men were given the same treatment as her right?

And your examples are not for Ned being a Lord, they are for hand of the king and warden of the north. Sam wasn't training to be either of those last I checked.

You do realize I said Lords in general and that the starving people were poachers right? You did notice that I was talking generally and not about Randyll? That I didn't say anything about the guy who stole from the Sept? Hard for me to take you saying I miss the point seriously when you didn't even read my post well enough to know that I wasn't talking about Randyll.

Rast isn't everyone. Most he talked to, some he argued with or threatened. But it's the ones that he only talked to that become Sams friends and base of support, so they are the ones that are relevant. Sam was never supported by Rast, he just wasn't beaten by him. 

I said the wall is better than being under Lannister or Bolton, as we are shown through Arya how they treat the small folk. I also said Sam wasn't a good fit for the wall as it's an organization built around fighting and would have done better as a Septon or a Maester. I fail to see how that has any bearing on it being better than being under those two houses. But apparently you think torture and being hunted with a pack of dogs is better than the wall. To each their own I guess. I mean Theon is clearly being treated well, right? But, hey, Sam didn't need to go to the wall he can just choose to be a peasant and his dad will have no worries, because that kills his claim more than the other two option we discussed...

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On 6/12/2018 at 9:24 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And honestly, Randyl tried really hard to shape Sam into a man worthy of leading his house-only for Sam to say he'd prefer to be a Maestor-I can see Sam's request provoked such a strong backlash, Sam is spitting upon all Randy's hard work-it's not because the boy is smart, or a good heart, or because he likes to read, being smart etc. 

His reaction wasn't right but I don't see him as being the Westeroes equivalent of a dumb jock who hates his nerd son for being a nerd as you present him as.

Here's the main passage that comes to mind (one of several, but this is the one that immediately pops to mind) when I think of Randyll's attitude towards Sam's "softness" (liking music, books, having a good heart, and hating fighting):

Quote

Sam remembered the last time he’d sung the song with his mother, to lull baby Dickon to sleep. His father had heard their voices and come barging in, angry. “I will have no more of that,” Lord Randyll told his wife harshly. “You ruined one boy with those soft septon’s songs, do you mean to do the same to this babe?” Then he looked at Sam and said, “Go sing to your sisters, if you must sing. I don’t want you near my son.” --ASOS, Ch 46

It seems clear here, that Randyll associates music (particularly a song about goodness and love) - and by extension, all things soft and gentle, with his "failure" to "make a man out of" Sam. It's Sam's sensitivity he hates. The same sensitivity that makes Sam afraid of fighting (and, as most people do when it comes to things we're afraid of, treating it with avoidance).

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11 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

My apologies for the delay in responding. @Azarial has already done an excellent job of addressing many of your points (and I would very much like to see you address the main thesis of his/her latest post: fear =/= laziness. Most of what you call laziness (being unwilling to try to get better at fighting, specifically) is actually fear, brought on by years of being taught in ways that range from harsh to downright abusive.

One specific point that I still need to address myself:

If Robb can name his bastard brother heir to his throne, and all it takes is for it to be in writing and for it to be witnessed, there's absolutely no reason why a lord can't do the same for his younger legitimate son. Sam might contest it... but if Randyll ever worried that Sam would ever try to contest Dickon's claim, he's even more of an idiot than I thought he was.

Sam is ill-suited for lordship. You've said as much, and so have I. My entire point has been that, when you have a square peg, and a round peg, and a round hole, you put the round peg in the round hole and send the square one out to look for a square hole. You do not beat the square peg into pieces until it's no longer suitable for any hole whatsoever. :\

Some time ago, you said something along the lines of, "I get it; you're determined that Randyll is the villain." By this same token, after seeing so much determination to see Sam's fearful avoidance as laziness, in spite of all the examples @Azarial has given of how Sam has shown that he's stronger and braver and more worthwhile than he believes he is (which instantly leads one to wonder why he believes he is so worthless in the first place), you continue to write him off as "lazy," when, in fact, he's a pretty hard worker when it comes to anything that doesn't absolutely terrify him.

Pretty sure an official letter from the King, or even the Warden would be enough to deal with the inheritance issue. The King is the law, so that should be all it would take.

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2 hours ago, Azarial said:

Pretty sure an official letter from the King, or even the Warden would be enough to deal with the inheritance issue. The King is the law, so that should be all it would take.

A few problems with that, the main one being that if it was so easy to get another heir Robert himself would have named Tommen his heir as the thought of Joffrey inheriting sickens him

The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?"
"He's only a boy," Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert's voice. "Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?"
"It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don't know him as I do."
 
On top of that Robert is not shown to be close to Tarly, the only man who defeated him in war, there is little reason he would grant him that boon
 
Finally it would be wrong, if Sam marries and creates potential heirs of his own it could create a Tarly civil war
 
2 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

If Robb can name his bastard brother heir to his throne, and all it takes is for it to be in writing and for it to be witnessed, there's absolutely no reason why a lord can't do the same for his younger legitimate son.

A king has more power towards the law than a lord does, a lord can not simply change the laws of the land. 

It should be pointed out, Robb died more than a year ago in the timeline and no one has declared Jon king in the books. 

Quote

 

Sam might contest it... but if Randyll ever worried that Sam would ever try to contest Dickon's claim, he's even more of an idiot than I thought he was.

Well ignoring the blatant point that a Lord is powerless to change the law, Sam is not necessarily the problem, but the family of whoever he marries or his future children could be. Not having a clear heir sometimes causes internal civil war. 

Quote

Sam is ill-suited for lordship. You've said as much, and so have I. My entire point has been that, when you have a square peg, and a round peg, and a round hole, you put the round peg in the round hole and send the square one out to look for a square hole. You do not beat the square peg into pieces until it's no longer suitable for any hole whatsoever. :\

i agree, that is why he allowed Sam his several years of peace before sending him off to the wall. 

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Some time ago, you said something along the lines of, "I get it; you're determined that Randyll is the villain." By this same token, after seeing so much determination to see Sam's fearful avoidance as laziness, in spite of all the examples @Azarial has given of how Sam has shown that he's stronger and braver and more worthwhile than he believes he is (which instantly leads one to wonder why he believes he is so worthless in the first place), you continue to write him off as "lazy," when, in fact, he's a pretty hard worker when it comes to anything that doesn't absolutely terrify him.

come on, he is one the laziest characters we have seen in the series, certainly at the wall. 

2 hours ago, Azarial said:

Great, you showed Ned doing justice as Warden of the North, and hand of the king, where he deals with punishing Lords and two of those were showing him punishing lords for their mistreatment of the small folk. So Ned punishes Lords who mistreat the small folk. 

Gared is not a lord. Did you somehow miss that one? 

And yeah, all nobles would have that under their remit, even Tywin Lannister was punishing nobles who were mistreating the smallfolk of the Westerlands

What evidence do you have that Tarly does not do the same to his noble vassals in his own lands? 

And more importantly, in which Sam chapter does he complain about his father's treatment of the smallfolk, as i don't recall that ever being an issue. 

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If Randyll is the same and if the punishment of the prostitute was to prevent the spread of disease as you claim, you won't mind quoting the part where the men were given the same treatment as her right?

you do realize she was the one who gave it to four of his soldiers, right? 

if one of those soldiers was guilty of giving the pox I imagine he too would be thrown in a jail cell, or maybe worse, but none had so we are not actually talking  the same crime.

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And your examples are not for Ned being a Lord, they are for hand of the king and warden of the north. Sam wasn't training to be either of those last I checked.

no, Gared was on Ned's property, he was dealing with him as the lord of winterfell, it would be idiotic if a deserter of the nightswatch found in karhold was not dealt with by the Karstarks, but they had to wait for Ned to make a thousand mile ( in total) journey. 

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You do realize I said Lords in general and that the starving people were poachers right? You did notice that I was talking generally and not about Randyll?

yeah, i got that completely, I was asking for evidence on these differences between Ned's rule and every other lord. the fact that you once again have dodged having to answer it tells me all i need to know. 

 

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Rast isn't everyone. Most he talked to, some he argued with or threatened. But it's the ones that he only talked to that become Sams friends and base of support, so they are the ones that are relevant. Sam was never supported by Rast, he just wasn't beaten by him. 

Rast is the lesson to them all. Jon threatened to kill him, no one is going to properly train with Sam now that the compassionate Jon has threatened to murder someone. his point was both clear and effective. 

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I said the wall is better than being under Lannister or Bolton,

and I said that is idiotic. 

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as we are shown through Arya how they treat the small folk.

ah, then you can't really hold the Starks up as an example either as Robb's men were raping and pillaging in the riverlands as well

Course, there's plenty want to take what we got. Wolves one day, Mummers the next. Them that's not looking for food are looking for plunder, or women to rape, and them that's not out for gold or wenches are looking for the bloody Kingslayer.

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"That one there did the raping. Now move along."

"A swallow," the fat one called down. "Ha' mercy, boy, a swallow." The old one slid an arm up to grasp the bars. The motion made his cage swing violently. "Water," gasped the one with the flies in his beard.

She looked at their filthy hair and scraggly beards and reddened eyes, at their dry, cracked, bleeding lips. Wolves, she thought again. Like me. Was this her pack? How could they be Robb's men? She wanted to hit them. She wanted to hurt them. She wanted to cry

Tarly treats the smallfolk of the Riverlands better than everyone else. 

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I also said Sam wasn't a good fit for the wall

He makes more sense at the wall than he does at the citadel, it is far easier to be accepted in the watch than it is to become a maester. 

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as it's an organization built around fighting and would have done better as a Septon or a Maester.

except you don't just show up at the citadel and become a maester, you have to work for it. 

plus only a third of the watch were fighting, the majority were builders or farmers. 

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I fail to see how that has any bearing on it being better than being under those two houses. But apparently you think torture and being hunted with a pack of dogs is better than the wall.

lol come on, you think the average Bolton smallfolk is being chased by a pack of dogs? 

and if it is better then why do they remain, the wall is pretty close to the Dreadfort and is in desperate need of people. Your logic is faulty. 

 

 
 
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1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

Here's the main passage that comes to mind (one of several, but this is the one that immediately pops to mind) when I think of Randyll's attitude towards Sam's "softness" (liking music, books, having a good heart, and hating fighting):

It seems clear here, that Randyll associates music (particularly a song about goodness and love) - and by extension, all things soft and gentle, with his "failure" to "make a man out of" Sam. It's Sam's sensitivity he hates. The same sensitivity that makes Sam afraid of fighting (and, as most people do when it comes to things we're afraid of, treating it with avoidance).

So can you actually explain why Tarley would hate Sam for being good at strategy? His intelegence? Being good at counseling others(something Tarley himself has done and has been asked to do throughout his life)? Liking to read isn't going to be an odd habit among the Westeroshi nobility-fact if Randyl thought reading books is bad, he would have burned the ones in his castle's library.

These attributes, are fine in a general and/or lord, hell most are needed, you cannot lack intelegence and be an effective general, or bad at strategy, and having the ability to depart good counsel as well.

Yes he does not like Sam's sensitive nature.

The quote shows he does not like a certian type of music-the one to which are meant for coddling(such as lullabyes).

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

bb can name his bastard brother heir to his throne, and all it takes is for it to be in writing and for it to be witnessed, there's absolutely no reason why a lord can't do the same for his younger legitimate son. Sam might contest it... but if Randyll ever worried that Sam would ever try to contest Dickon's claim, he's even more of an idiot than I thought he was.

Robb planned to name his bastard brother legitimate this make him his presumptive heir till Robb sires a son. 

Mwould many lords respect such a decree and follow it should Robb die? 

Probably not. Jon would be a stranger, oath-breaker and much a boy as their last king who proved a failure. 

Sam would easily manipulatable at this point, easy to coerce, it would not take much for one to pressure him into marrying a girl(not a favored daughter but of the female kin), and giving a house a claim to Tarly land.

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21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So can you actually explain why Tarley would hate Sam for being good at strategy? His intelegence? Being good at counseling others(something Tarley himself has done and has been asked to do throughout his life)? Liking to read isn't going to be an odd habit among the Westeroshi nobility-fact if Randyl thought reading books is bad, he would have burned the ones in his castle's library.

These attributes, are fine in a general and/or lord, hell most are needed, you cannot lack intelegence and be an effective general, or bad at strategy, and having the ability to depart good counsel as well.

Yes he does not like Sam's sensitive nature.

The quote shows he does not like a certian type of music-the one to which are meant for coddling(such as lullabyes).

Oh, I see where the miscommunication is. :) I wasn't exactly claiming that Randyll despised intelligence... or at least, I didn't mean to claim that. What I actually meant was that a) Sam is intelligent and compassionate and good at strategy and good at counselling others, and he is also sensitive, and b) Randyll never gave Sam any indication that he found anything about Sam to be worthwhile, and has often actively tried to beat Sam's innate goodness out of him. Ergo, Randyll doesn't value Sam's good qualities.

This may not necessarily be because he doesn't value those same good qualities in others. It could just be because those good qualities are part of Sam. This is common in abuse.

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11 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 and has often actively tried to beat Sam's innate goodness out of him. Ergo, Randyll doesn't value Sam's good qualities.

That is not true.  if he wanted to beat the 'innate goodness' out of him he would have continued training him and not allowed him to do as he pleased the several years before he was sent to the wall. 

once faced with the idea that Sam would not be a suitable heir he gave him the freedom to do what he wanted until he became an adult in their society and stopped supporting him. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

come on, he is one the laziest characters we have seen in the series, certainly at the wall. 

Can you cite a single example of Sam refusing to do a duty that does not involve fighting or training?

In fact, can you cite a single example of Sam refusing to train? Missing archery practice once doesn't count: that's not a refusal, it's forgetfulness. He got absorbed in his research and lost track of time.

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14 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Can you cite a single example of Sam refusing to do a duty that does not involve fighting or training?

They are still duties, are they not? 

He also, thanks to Jon, managed to get a duty that did not require to do what the stewards had to do. 

Chett gave an angry scowl. "I'm a steward. You think it's easy work, fit for cowards? The order of stewards keeps the Watch alive. We hunt and farm, tend the horses, milk the cows, gather firewood, cook the meals. Who do you think makes your clothing? Who brings up supplies from the south? The stewards."

Sam does not have any real duties, but doing what he loves, reading and hanging out with Gilly. Sam, the one man able to bring back his own Wildling concubine. 

14 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

In fact, can you cite a single example of Sam refusing to train? Missing archery practice once doesn't count: that's not a refusal, it's forgetfulness. He got absorbed in his research and lost track of time.

It is not forgetfulness, he could make up the training any time he wanted, he'd rather read in the vaults. 

He is a lazy individual, when given the choice to improve himself or do things that he enjoys he picks the latter - every single time. 

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There's a reason I specifically mentioned excluding training and fighting. @Azarial has already covered this point in detail (and you've yet to address those points). Fear-based avoidance =/= laziness.

And he still shows up. In spite of being afraid. That's the opposite of being lazy.

If he'd been given a standard steward job, there's nothing saying he wouldn't work hard at it. He was given the job he was given, and he does his best at it. Again, @Azarial has cited several examples, all of which you've ignored.

For an example of actual laziness at the Wall, look to Chet, who actively resents losing his cushy job and slacks at his current one.

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5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

There's a reason I specifically mentioned excluding training and fighting.

sure, apart from all the cheesecake and fried food I have my diet is going perfectly :rolleyes:

he is in the watch, training and learning to fight are hugely important duties. 

5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

And he still shows up. In spite of being afraid. That's the opposite of being lazy.

what? he lives at the castle, he does not need to show up anywhere. the training takes place in the same place he lives, he can train at any point, he chooses not to. 

5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

If he'd been given a standard steward job, there's nothing saying he wouldn't work hard at it.

there is, we have not seen him work hard at anything he does not enjoy and we know he does not enjoy any of the regular duties of the steward.

5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

He was given the job he was given,

yup, thanks to Jon, his fairy godmother guaranteeing that he is not treated like a regular recruit, no wonder he felt the need to fix the election to make sure Jon was appointed. 

5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

and he does his best at it.

does he? how do you determine that? 

5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

Again, @Azarial has cited several examples, all of which you've ignored.

examples of what? can you not speak for yourself? 

and I have not ignored anything she has said, apart from the times they were repeating their points I went over everything that they said. 

5 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

For an example of actual laziness at the Wall, look to Chet, who actively resents losing his cushy job and slacks at his current one.

sure, Chett is not better than Sam, both were more motivated in the cushy job, the major difference is that Chett paid his dues, worked to earn his position, had to pass his training and still got ousted when the son of Ned Stark used his influence to get his best friend a cushy position. 

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1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

Oh, I see where the miscommunication is. :) I wasn't exactly claiming that Randyll despised intelligence... or at least, I didn't mean to claim that.

I kinda find it hard to discern how you could not have meant that by asking this: 

 Maesters have value. They counsel lords. They heal. They provide communication to the outside world. They teach the children of lords. They have value. And Randyll Tarly had another son. So why would Randyll purposely traumatize his son away from the one worthwhile job he would have been actually good at, unless he despises the very things that make Sam worthwhile?

But you can see why there was a miscommunication. I don't want to accuse you of lying, but I just want everyone to understand why I took that certain meaning. I 
1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

and b) Randyll never gave Sam any indication that he found anything about Sam to be worthwhile, and has often actively tried to beat Sam's innate goodness out of him. Ergo, Randyll doesn't value Sam's good qualities

Meh.  That's a stretch. Sam was able to become well-read because Randyl did not restrict him from his studies, by having a maestor teacher Sam should know reading, knowing history, are seen as necessity for the nobility to have.  If Sam did display some eye strategy, he wouldn't have beaten it out of the boy-fact he'd probably as seen it as a sighn of Sam not being totally lost if Sam came up to him to discuss a famous battle he's read about gave his analysis of and asked Randyl if he agreed; such a discussion, seeing Sam actually use his intelligence, in the right way, would generate such approval. 

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