Sam in basic training

[Katerine459]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

he is in the watch, training and learning to fight are hugely important duties. 

You're citing examples of fear as examples of laziness. Fear =/= laziness.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

what? he lives at the castle, he does not need to show up anywhere. the training takes place in the same place he lives, he can train at any point, he chooses not to. 

He shows Jon the blisters from archery practice. Ergo, he has blisters from archery practice. Ergo, he practices archery. Even though he associates training with trauma, he still shows up.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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If he'd been given a standard steward job, there's nothing saying he wouldn't work hard at it.

there is, we have not seen him work hard at anything he does not enjoy and we know he does not enjoy any of the regular duties of the steward.

Again, can you cite a single example of Sam slacking at a duty that he's given? His duties involve tending the ravens, which he does. They involve assisting Maester Aemon, which he does. They involve helping Aemon and tending to him when he becomes sick, which he does. They involve rowing for passage to Oldtown, which he does. All without complaint or attempts at slacking.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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He was given the job he was given,

yup, thanks to Jon, his fairy godmother guaranteeing that he is not treated like a regular recruit, no wonder he felt the need to fix the election to make sure Jon was appointed. 

That's not Sam's choice, so it's not his fault. Ergo, you can't cite it as an example of Sam's supposed laziness.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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and he does his best at it.

does he? how do you determine that? 

See 2 paragraphs above.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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Again, @Azarial has cited several examples, all of which you've ignored.

examples of what? can you not speak for yourself? 

and I have not ignored anything she has said, apart from the times they were repeating their points I went over everything that they said.

By the same token, I didn't find it necessary to repeat his/her points. And you've yet to address the fear =/= laziness point, or the examples of Sam risking being beheaded for desertion in order to stop Jon from deserting. Or the fact that being motivated by things that you enjoy or are personally invested in makes you normal, not lazy.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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For an example of actual laziness at the Wall, look to Chet, who actively resents losing his cushy job and slacks at his current one.

sure, Chett is not better than Sam, both were more motivated in the cushy job, the major difference is that Chett paid his dues, worked to earn his position, had to pass his training and still got ousted when the son of Ned Stark used his influence to get his best friend a cushy position. 

Again, not Sam's choice, so citing this as an example of his laziness when he didn't choose the position in the first place is both unfair and illogical. The real difference is that, if Sam were reassigned to the kennels, he'd do his best to take care of the dogs, and not spend all his time mourning the loss of his cushy job, or plotting revenge on the people he blames for losing it.

[Katerine459]

12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I kinda find it hard to discern how you could not have meant that by asking this: 

 Maesters have value. They counsel lords. They heal. They provide communication to the outside world. They teach the children of lords. They have value. And Randyll Tarly had another son. So why would Randyll purposely traumatize his son away from the one worthwhile job he would have been actually good at, unless he despises the very things that make Sam worthwhile?

But you can see why there was a miscommunication. I don't want to accuse you of lying, but I just want everyone to understand why I took that certain meaning. I 

Meh.  That's a stretch. Sam was able to become well-read because Randyl did not restrict him from his studies, by having a maestor teacher Sam should know reading, knowing history, are seen as necessity for the nobility to have.  If Sam did display some eye strategy, he wouldn't have beaten it out of the boy-fact he'd probably as seen it as a sighn of Sam not being totally lost if Sam came up to him to discuss a famous battle he's read about gave his analysis of and asked Randyl if he agreed; such a discussion, seeing Sam actually use his intelligence, in the right way, would generate such approval. 

It's my fault. I didn't explain it properly before. I totally understand why you interpreted what I wrote the way you did. There's a very fine - but important - line between what you read and what I meant to write, and I didn't write that line very well.  My apologies. And it does seem you understand my point now.

Often in these cases, the "fault" (if you can call it that) doesn't lie with just one person. Sam is terrified of Randyll, and by extension, authority figures in general. I trust we're agreed on that much? (if not, I'll do some digging when I can, and give you several dozen examples!) Because of that, if he'd ever had any instances of strategic insight while he was with Randyll (which is actually kind of unlikely, come to think of it... fear tends to shut down the higher thinking centers of the brain, which is why stage fright is a thing), he'd have kept it to himself because he would have been too afraid to speak up in Randyll's presence. So even if Randyll were inclined to show approval (which I see as about as likely as Tywin showing approval of Tyrion), he wouldn't have been given the occasion to do so. The end result, sadly, is the same - Sam grew up believing that everything about himself is worthless.

I count Sam's compassionate, gentle, and sensitive nature as "good" qualities, and it was those I mainly was thinking about when talking about Randyll trying to beat them out of him.

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

You're citing examples of fear as examples of laziness. Fear =/= laziness.

how does he fear training? come on!

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

He shows Jon the blisters from archery practice. Ergo, he has blisters from archery practice. Ergo, he practices archery. Even though he associates training with trauma, he still shows up.

using ergo twice is a little redundant, don't ya think? maybe switch it up.

he does his best to avoid it, that is laziness. He knows that he gets preferential treatment from Jon, so he can avoid what he does not want to do. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Again, can you cite a single example of Sam slacking at a duty that he's given?

Training, all archery training is mandatory and Sam has avoided it, knowing that he was supposed to do more. 

Where is all the archery practice on his way to Oldtown, by the sounds of it Kojja Mo is an expert, who loves her bow. Sam is not interested in training now that Jon is not around to make sure he is doing it. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

His duties involve tending the ravens, which he does. They involve assisting Maester Aemon, which he does. They involve helping Aemon and tending to him when he becomes sick, which he does. They involve rowing for passage to Oldtown, which he does. All without complaint or attempts at slacking.

Your shitting me, right, he is constantly complaining. 

 I've been working at my archery every afternoon with Ulmer, as you commanded . . . well, except when I'm in the vaults, but you told me to find out about the Others. The longbow makes my shoulders ache and raises blisters on my fingers." He showed Jon where one had burst.

his whole time in Braavos was spent whining about Dareon as he is incapable of fending for himself. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

That's not Sam's choice, so it's not his fault. Ergo, you can't cite it as an example of Sam's supposed laziness.

course we can, it is context. Jon when asked if Sam could do any duties of a Steward is pretty clear that not only could he not, but he'd likely not even attempt to master them. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

See 2 paragraphs above.

you didn't answer to paragraphs above, you dodged the question. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

By the same token, I didn't find it necessary to repeat his/her points.

you are the one who made the accusation, if you think I ignored some of her points list them and I will happily go over them again. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

And you've yet to address the fear =/= laziness point, or the examples of Sam risking being beheaded for desertion in order to stop Jon from deserting.

when was that a risk? Sam was not deserting and he is well aware that brothers go all the way to mole town. him being beheaded was not a fear. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

Or the fact that being motivated by things that you enjoy or are personally invested in makes you normal, not lazy.

sure, but constantly avoiding things you are supposed to do makes you lazy. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Again, not Sam's choice, so citing this as an example of his laziness when he didn't choose the position

no, his best friend did in the knowledge that Sam would be too lazy to properly learn how to hunt, build or do any of the other regular duties of a steward.  

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

in the first place is both unfair and illogical.

nah, not really. 

4 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

The real difference is that, if Sam were reassigned to the kennels, he'd do his best to take care of the dogs, and not spend all his time mourning the loss of his cushy job,

bullshit, of course he would, he is not a saint. it would be perfectly natural to mourn losing a good job through no fault of your own. 

 

8 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

I count Sam's compassionate, gentle, and sensitive nature as "good" qualities, and it was those I mainly was thinking about when talking about Randyll trying to beat them out of him.

he was never trying to beat them out of him. Dickon was compassionate and sensitive to the risk of Brienne being raped, these are not qualities that Randylll has tried to beat out of him. 

Leaders are expected to be compassionate, the problem with Sam is he constantly gave up, refused to even try to learn. 

[Katerine459]

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

44 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

You're citing examples of fear as examples of laziness. Fear =/= laziness.

how does he fear training? come on!

People fear things they associate with trauma. Trust me on this. Sam has reason to associate training with trauma, and he clearly fears it.

Fear =/= laziness. Most of the rest of your post completely ignores this point.

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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His duties involve tending the ravens, which he does. They involve assisting Maester Aemon, which he does. They involve helping Aemon and tending to him when he becomes sick, which he does. They involve rowing for passage to Oldtown, which he does. All without complaint or attempts at slacking.

Your shitting me, right, he is constantly complaining. 

 I've been working at my archery every afternoon with Ulmer, as you commanded . . . well, except when I'm in the vaults, but you told me to find out about the Others. The longbow makes my shoulders ache and raises blisters on my fingers." He showed Jon where one had burst.

his whole time in Braavos was spent whining about Dareon as he is incapable of fending for himself. 

That's not complaining. He's proud of his blisters, so he wants Jon to see them as proof of him overcoming his obstacles!

Dareon was a little sh*t, and Aemon was dying, and they weren't going anywhere. How was Sam supposed to act?

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

you didn't answer to paragraphs above, you dodged the question. 

You asked how I determined that he does his best at his duties. I answered with examples of him working hard, and at things that he probably didn't find particularly enjoyable (working as a rower for passage from Braavos to Oldtown, for example). Exactly how did you expect me to address an accusation of laziness, except by citing examples of him notably not slacking?

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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Again, not Sam's choice, so citing this as an example of his laziness when he didn't choose the position

no, his best friend did in the knowledge that Sam would be too lazy to properly learn how to hunt, build or do any of the other regular duties of a steward.

No, Jon did it in the knowledge that Sam would be broken down and probably indirectly killed by Thorne if left alone with him, and Sam could be of real use to Maester Aemon.

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is all the archery practice on his way to Oldtown, by the sounds of it Kojja Mo is an expert, who loves her bow. Sam is not interested in training now that Jon is not around to make sure he is doing it. 

Already covered in this thread. When was Sam supposed to train in archery? He wasn't a free, or a money-paying passenger. He was ROWING.

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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The real difference is that, if Sam were reassigned to the kennels, he'd do his best to take care of the dogs, and not spend all his time mourning the loss of his cushy job,

bullshit, of course he would, he is not a saint. it would be perfectly natural to mourn losing a good job through no fault of your own. 

...and you've just proven that you have no idea who Sam really is. Trust me... he'd take the change of fortune in stride and do his best to take care of the dogs, and just be glad that he still has worthwhile work to do. As long as it doesn't involve things that are traumatic, he's fine.

[Bernie Mac]

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

People fear things they associate with trauma. Trust me on this. Sam has reason to associate training with trauma, and he clearly fears it.

seems like a convenient excuse, especially as the peasants at the wall with him all likely received much worse childhoods, as would the noble sons who actually had to serve as squires. his younger brother is actually fighting in war. 

if only the rest of the population could get out of doing things by blaming it all trauma. 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Fear =/= laziness. Most of the rest of your post completely ignores this point.

he's lazy. sorry, but it is true. 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

That's not complaining. He's proud of his blisters, so he wants Jon to see them as proof of him overcoming his obstacles!

he is complaining, that line is the very definition of complaining. 

what obstacles? he is doing what every single other person has been ordered to do, this is not an obstacle. 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Dareon was a little sh*t, and Aemon was dying, and they weren't going anywhere. How was Sam supposed to act?

maybe figure out a way he himself could earn money to feed three people he had an emotional attachment to rather than rely on Dareon who barely knew Aemon, Gilly or her son. 

Of course it is much easier to expect others to do it for him, and when push comes to shove, when it is made clear that he will finally have to fend for himself he snaps and beats the crap out a drunk. 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

You asked how I determined that he does his best at his duties. I answered with examples of him working hard, and at things that he probably didn't find particularly enjoyable (working as a rower for passage from Braavos to Oldtown, for example). Exactly how did you expect me to address an accusation of laziness, except by citing examples of him notably not slacking?

it is not like he had any other choice, the books he sold only paid for part of the journey. but this is the point, it is not trauma that stops him from being active, it is that others are constantly giving him options. when put in a position that he has to do something to survive, especially since his experience with the Other, then he will. 

his jobs on the ship actually discredit your point that doing physical things makes him traumatic, they don't. 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

No, Jon did it in the knowledge that Sam would be broken down and probably indirectly killed by Thorne if left alone with him, and Sam could be of real use to Maester Aemon.

no, Jon could have suggested he hunt, farm and do the other duties of a steward, he made sure his best friend got the easiest job possible 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

Already covered in this thread. When was Sam supposed to train in archery? He wasn't a free, or a money-paying passenger. He was ROWING.

You can train on galleys, and no he was not constantly rowing. It is a swan ship with large white sails, it would very rarely need rowers. 

28 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

...and you've just proven that you have no idea who Sam really is. Trust me... he'd take the change of fortune in stride and do his best to take care of the dogs, and just be glad that he still has worthwhile work to do. As long as it doesn't involve things that are traumatic, he's fine.

sure he would. 

[Katerine459]

*sigh* Ok, either you're arguing for the sake of arguing, or you are completely out of touch with how humanity works.

Trauma is not an excuse. It's a very real thing. And, btw, I never said that Sam associates physical activity with trauma. I said he associates training with trauma. Training, at fighting, specifically. He doesn't find rowing traumatic, because he doesn't associate rowing with being beaten down, paraded in women's clothes, "cursed and caned, slapped and starved."

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A dozen masters-at-arms came and went at Horn Hill, trying to turn Samwell into the knight his father wanted. The boy was cursed and caned, slapped and starved. One man had him sleep in his chainmail to make him more martial. Another dressed him in his mother’s clothing and paraded him through the bailey to shame him into valor. He only grew fatter and more frightened, until Lord Randyll’s disappointment turned to anger and then to loathing. “One time,” Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, “two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn’t make me brave as they’d promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged.” -- AGOT, Ch 26

You asked what obstacles he overcame when practicing archery. Anytime somebody confronts their fears, it's overcoming an obstacle, and he should be proud of it. It doesn't matter if the rest of the people have to do the same thing... it means something different when it's something you're afraid of.

Laziness is slacking at work that you object to for no other reason than that you don't want to work. You have yet to cite a single example of Sam avoiding any work that he does not find traumatic, whereas the rest of us have cited several examples of him diligently working at any non-traumatic task he's given. And he doesn't just do the work he enjoys, either. When given menial work, he does that as well. In addition to the rowing, I can't think that caring for the sick Maester Aemon was particularly enjoyable for him. Or caring for the ravens, which I'm sure involves cleaning their dung and other non-enjoyable tasks.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

*sigh* Ok, either you're arguing for the sake of arguing, or you are completely out of touch with how humanity works.

wow, someone disagrees with you about a fictional character and you come to the conclusion that the only possible reason is that they must not know how humanity works. 

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Trauma is not an excuse. 

no, it is not, Sam has never used it once. you are using it as an excuse for a character, nothing is his fault apparently, it is only down to trauma. 

the kid who had several years of peace with music and cakes while the peasants are eating shit and the noble sons his age are training, being beat in the practice yards, some actually in wars while it is poor old Sam who should be excused from doing anything he does not like because of 'trauma'. 

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It's a very real thing. And, btw, I never said that Sam associates physical activity with trauma.

excellent, then you'll drop this pointless excuse. 

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I said he associates training with trauma.

he does, when? 

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Training, at fighting, specifically. He has no problem with rowing, because he doesn't associate rowing with being beaten down, paraded naked, "cursed and caned, slapped and starved."

he also didn't have a problem beating the crap out of Dareon. he showed zero sign of trauma about that. 

seems if fighting was that traumatic this would be the perfect example for it to express itself, it does not. 

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You asked what obstacles he overcame when practicing archery. Anytime somebody confronts their fears, it's overcoming an obstacle, and he should be proud of it.

he does not have a fear of practicing archery. he had a fear of joining the citadel, he clearly had trauma about that, but there is no sign of trauma over practicing archery or doing physical labour, you are simply making excuses for him at this point. 

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It doesn't matter if the rest of the people have to do the same thing... it means something different when it's something you're afraid of.

except he is not afraid of it, becoming a maester, certainly but there is zero evidence of practicing archery is traumatic for him. you have made your position clear and you are clearly arguing for the sake of it, hoping that the vague idea of trauma covers everything. "Sam does not clean the toilet after him; trauma, Sam does not emoty the bins when it is his turn; trauma". 

 

 

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Laziness is slacking at work that you object to for no other reason than that you don't want to work.

yup, Sam is clearly guilty of that. 

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You have yet to cite a single example of Sam avoiding any work that he does not find traumatic,

no, you have to prove that he finds archery traumatic. you making excuse after excuse and blaming it all on trauma with no corroborating evidence is the issue here. 

prove that archery is traumatic first, explain why he showed zero signs of trauma when he beat up the smaller, drunken Dareon? 

Why does he not react to training like he did to being sent to the Citadel? 

There is actually evidence that Sam suffers from trauma, but it is not from training but from the idea of becoming a Maester. 

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whereas the rest of us have cited several examples of him diligently working at any non-traumatic task he's given.

'the rest of us' are you under the impression that I am the only person who disagrees with you? 

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And he doesn't just do the work he enjoys, either. When given menial work, he does that as well.

no, he does not. he is acceptable, not well

 

[Katerine459]

30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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Trauma is not an excuse. 

no, it is not, Sam has never used it once. you are using it as an excuse for a character, nothing is his fault apparently, it is only down to trauma. 

the kid who had several years of peace with music and cakes while the peasants are eating shit and the noble sons his age are training, being beat in the practice yards, some actually in wars while it is poor old Sam who should be excused from doing anything he does not like because of 'trauma'. 

You're... just going to completely ignore the book quotation I cited. The one that explains in excruciating detail why he would find training traumatic. Ok.

30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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I said he associates training with trauma.

he does, when? 

...in the book passage I'd cited 2 seconds before this. It's also blatantly evident in the entire first training session with Thorne, that ended with Sam cowering on the ground.

30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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Training, at fighting, specifically. He has no problem with rowing, because he doesn't associate rowing with being beaten down, paraded naked, "cursed and caned, slapped and starved."

he also didn't have a problem beating the crap out of Dareon. he showed zero sign of trauma about that. 

seems if fighting was that traumatic this would be the perfect example for it to express itself, it does not. 

Ever see A Christmas Story? The scene where Ralphie beats up Scott Farkus is coming to mind. You don't think that asserting himself like that was hard for Sam? Or that it wasn't a sign that he'd reached a breaking point? And, btw, how exactly does that fight relate to finding fight training traumatic in the first place? He wasn't training. It was actually hard for him, but for an unrelated reason... it was hard because asserting himself doesn't come naturally to him.

30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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And he doesn't just do the work he enjoys, either. When given menial work, he does that as well.

no, he does not. he is acceptable, not well

"As well," I said. Meaning, "In addition to."

And you're also going to completely ignore the examples of menial work that he willingly does to the best of his ability, that I cited, in spite of the fact that they're directly relevant to your main thesis (that Sam is lazy). :/ It would be one thing if you ignored irrelevant or redundant passages, but you're actually ignoring passages that support arguments, that you then claim are unsupported!

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Katerine459 said:

You're... just going to completely ignore the book quotation I cited. The one that explains in excruciating detail why he would find training traumatic. Ok.

no he does not, he tells of what happened to him and how he kept on failing, there is nothing in that quotation that is an example of Sam acting traumatized. and we actually see how Sam acts when he is traumatized about something, his panic over being a maester is a clear example of it. 

i get it, it is much easier to blame everything on trauma, to excuse Sam over everything, but sadly you are wrong. 

Just now, Katerine459 said:

...in the book passage I'd cited 2 seconds before this. It's also blatantly evident in the entire first training session with Thorne, that ended with Sam cowering on the ground.

lol we clearly have different understanding of the words 'blatant' and 'evident'. maybe look them up and then reconsider your use of them in future. 

Just now, Katerine459 said:

Ever see A Christmas Story?

no

Just now, Katerine459 said:

 

, btw, how exactly does that fight relate to finding fight training traumatic in the first place? He wasn't training. It was actually hard for him, but not for that reason... it was hard because asserting himself doesn't come naturally to him.

he beat the crap out of someone without showing any sign of trauma, your whole excuse of him not being able to train at fighting because of trauma is baloney. 

Just now, Katerine459 said:

 

And you're also going to completely ignore the examples of menial work that he willingly does to the best of his ability,

i didn't ignore them, you were repeating yourself and i had already pointed out, he does not have a choice to not do them, it is either refuse and swim to oldtown. 

Just now, Katerine459 said:

 

that I cited, in spite of the fact that they're directly relevant to your main thesis (that Sam is lazy). :

he is lazy. i didn't claim he was paralyzed, did I? Are you under the mistaken belief that people who are lazy are incapable ever working? 

13 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 It would be one thing if you ignored irrelevant or redundant passages, but you're actually ignoring passages that support arguments, that you then claim are unsupported!

i'm hardly ignoring them, you repeat the same arguments over and over in the last 5 replies, sometimes in the same reply. i am not going to repeat myself again and again

 

[Katerine459]

32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

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And you're also going to completely ignore the examples of menial work that he willingly does to the best of his ability,

i didn't ignore them, you were repeating yourself and i had already pointed out, he does not have a choice to not do them, it is either refuse and swim to oldtown.

...and you ignored them before, too. Why do you think I'm repeating them? The rowing was only one of the examples I listed.

On a separate but related note, I did miss a relevant response before. Sorry about that. Here's what I'd intended to say before:

In fact, Sam did have another choice that did not involve rowing to Oldtown. He could have stayed in Braavos, deserted the Night's Watch, and let Aemon die. That would actually have been the lazy thing to do. Dareon was doing it. Braavos isn't in Westeros, so as far as he knew, he wouldn't have been in significant danger for desertion in Braavos (he had no idea that Arya was killing people in Braavos for desertion). And it would have meant he could have an easier life than the life with the NW, which has horrible working conditions. He could have sold his services to the Iron Bank or the Sealord as a scribe or accountant, and lived in a comfortable climate at an easy and enjoyable job.

He chose to work for passage for himself, two other adults, and a baby, to Oldtown, when he knew that a job he dreaded was at the end of the trip, instead of doing that.

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

I did miss that response before. Sorry about that. Here's what I'd intended to say before:

In fact, Sam did have another choice that did not involve rowing to Oldtown. He could have stayed in Braavos, deserted the Night's Watch, and let Aemon die.

That looks unlikely as he had no means of supporting himself. his best bet is getting to oldtown, being kept as an acolyte and a place in the north. 

Training to be a maester is an easier position for him than finding a means to support himself, Gilly and the baby in braavos. 

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

That would actually have been the lazy thing to do.

not when he had little money. 

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

Dareon was doing it.

yup, Dareon was singing, writing and performing. what do you think Sam would do to survive? 

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

Braavos isn't in Westeros, so as far as he knew, he wouldn't have been in significant danger for desertion in Braavos (he had no idea that Arya was killing people in Braavos for desertion).

yup, i have never claimed he left for oldtown because of danger. 

he loves Jon, he does not want to let him down, he loves Gilly and wants her to have a better life, something he is unlikely to be able to do in Braavos and he cares for Aemon and assumes he will be better off at the citadel. 

him being lazy does not mean he is a sociopath, it also does not mean he is incapable of doing work. 

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

And it would have meant he could have an easier life than the life with the NW, which has horrible working conditions.

could it? what exactly is he qualified for in bravos given he is a foreigner and is not fluent in the language? 

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

He could have sold his services to the Iron Bank or the Sealord as a scribe or accountant, and lived in a comfortable climate at an easy and enjoyable job.

could he? is he qualified to do so, enjoying reading does not make a person magically good with numbers. 

7 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

He chose to work for passage for himself, two other adults, and a baby, to Oldtown, instead of doing that.

yes, i'm not sure your point, caring about others does not automatically make someone not lazy. 

I could argue that going back to westeros is less challenging, less for him to do but I don't think they are the only reasons or even the primary reasons he went back, he did it for the love of the people he cares about. 

[Katerine459]

44 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That looks unlikely as he had no means of supporting himself. his best bet is getting to oldtown, being kept as an acolyte and a place in the north. 

Training to be a maester is an easier position for him than finding a means to support himself, Gilly and the baby in braavos. 

not when he had little money. 

yup, Dareon was singing, writing and performing. what do you think Sam would do to survive? 

yup, i have never claimed he left for oldtown because of danger. 

he loves Jon, he does not want to let him down, he loves Gilly and wants her to have a better life, something he is unlikely to be able to do in Braavos and he cares for Aemon and assumes he will be better off at the citadel. 

him being lazy does not mean he is a sociopath, it also does not mean he is incapable of doing work. 

could it? what exactly is he qualified for in bravos given he is a foreigner and is not fluent in the language? 

could he? is he qualified to do so, enjoying reading does not make a person magically good with numbers. 

yes, i'm not sure your point, caring about others does not automatically make someone not lazy. 

I could argue that going back to westeros is less challenging, less for him to do but I don't think they are the only reasons or even the primary reasons he went back, he did it for the love of the people he cares about. 

I'd edited while you were posting. Sorry about that... it's a... thing that I have. :/

I was sure I remembered some mention at some point of Sam being good at sums. It's nearly 1:00am where I am, so it's hard to recall, though.  But even if not, the Iron Bank probably has good use for scribes, even ones who just speak the common tongue. And Sam is smart. He would have learned Braavosi. Probably would have enjoyed learning it.

I'm glad you're acknowledging that Sam cares enough about Jon, Aemon, Gilly, and the Night's Watch in general to do his duty, and not even consider desertion as an option. But I wonder, then... why are you calling him lazy, again? Because I'd define this as the polar opposite of laziness. If he were lazy, he would have at least seriously considered it. Is it really only because he avoids training? (And why wouldn't his instinctive tendency be to avoid training when possible, when he associates training with being "cursed and caned, slapped and starved," paraded in women's clothes, and of course, associated it with constant and neverending failure, abject humiliation, and being viewed with disgust by parental figures? Even if you somehow believe that ongoing experience wouldn't be traumatic for a child -- a very strange belief, but never mind -- it still is, at the very minimum, hell on self-esteem.)

It's also worth noting that waiting for Sam, at Oldtown, was a job he absolutely dreaded -- becoming a Maester. You acknowledged earlier that the idea of becoming a Maester was traumatic for him. It was also very close to Horn Hill, a prospect that he found equally terrifying. I wonder, then, if learning Braavosi and finding a job as a scribe or accountant would truly have been more objectively difficult for him than going to Oldtown and becoming a Maester. And then, after that, he gets to go back to the Wall, where there are Others. Speaking as someone with fears, usually anything that does not involve doing the thing you're afraid of, is easier than anything that does involve doing the thing you're afraid of.

He chose to do hard work for passage to Oldtown, towards a job he dreaded, for the sake of his duty and the people he cared about. How is that lazy?

[Bernie Mac]

9 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

I'd edited while you were posting. Sorry about that... it's a... thing that I have. :/

I was sure I remembered some mention at some point of Sam being good at sums. It's nearly 1:00am where I am, so it's hard to recall, though.  But even if not, the Iron Bank probably has good use for scribes, even ones who just speak the common tongue. And Sam is smart. He would have learned Braavosi. Probably would have enjoyed learning it.

He would have starved to death before he knew enough of both spoken and written Bravosi to be hired in such a position, he would need to actually get a menial job in the foreign county before he could do that. 

It seems, regardless of Aemon, Gilly and Jon, the easier option would be to return west rather than go homeless and starve

 

12 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

 

I'm glad you're acknowledging that Sam cares enough about Jon, Aemon, Gilly, and the Night's Watch in general to do his duty, and not even consider desertion as an option. But I wonder, then... why are you calling him lazy, again? Because I'd define this as the polar opposite of laziness.

Because being lazy does not mean you are a sociopath, it does not mean you have zero feelings or that you are a bad person. being lazy does not mean you don't want to be good or that there are even times when you will try. 

I'm sorry to say this, but it seems you are attaching an awful lot more on to the words meaning than the dictionary describes.  

• Of the main pov characters i consider him the laziest, the second laziest when you take into account the prologue characters,
• of his peers at the watch i consider him amongst the laziest we have seen and that is despite that his colleagues didn't get to pick what their duties

so yeah, i consider him lazy, you pointing out that he cares for others so can't be lazy is just bizarre to me. they have no bearing on each other. 

 

26 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

If he were lazy, he would have at least seriously considered it.

why on earth would you come to this conclusion? you are acting like all lazy people are dicks, they are not. some bizarre arguments you are putting forth here. 

 

 

[Katerine459]

You responded to everything except all the most important parts of my post. Hoping this was a mistake on your part and you accidentally hit the Submit button too soon. I'm off to bed.

[Bernie Mac]

8 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

You responded to everything except all the most important parts of my post. Hoping this was a mistake on your part and you accidentally hit the Submit button too soon. I'm off to bed.

no, i've given up after reading the first part of your quote. you seem to have added a lot of connotations to the word lazy, given that you assume that caring for others is irrefutable evidence that he can not be lazy. I see no further need to carry on when you have created your own meaning for the word. 

[Katerine459]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

no, i've given up after reading the first part of your quote. you seem to have added a lot of connotations to the word lazy, given that you assume that caring for others is irrefutable evidence that he can not be lazy. I see no further need to carry on when you have created your own meaning for the word. 

Being "lazy" does not mean that you're unwilling to do, or resentful of, hard work? Since when? What does it mean, then?

What I'm trying to understand, is exactly how many examples of hard work that Sam does willingly (rowing towards a place he dreads, taking care of the ravens, taking care of Aemon, walking to from the Fist to the Wall in heavy snow until his physical endurance gives out - which happens to others before it happens to him, researching day and night in the Vaults, etc), does it take to counter your accusation of laziness (which you seem to have supported solely on the fact that he missed one archery lesson when he lost track of time, and apparently didn't make it up, and that there's no mention of him volunteering himself for extra training).

How do you define, "lazy," to justify slapping Sam with that label, when every single example you cited that involves an actual choice on his part (all 2 of them), has a far better-supported explanation (fear and severe emotional baggage)?

Are you including the stuff that happened before Dickon was born (when Sam was between 4 and 7 years old)? This stuff?

14 hours ago, Katerine459 said:

A dozen masters-at-arms came and went at Horn Hill, trying to turn Samwell into the knight his father wanted. The boy was cursed and caned, slapped and starved. One man had him sleep in his chainmail to make him more martial. Another dressed him in his mother’s clothing and paraded him through the bailey to shame him into valor. He only grew fatter and more frightened, until Lord Randyll’s disappointment turned to anger and then to loathing. “One time,” Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, “two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn’t make me brave as they’d promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged.” -- AGOT, Ch 26

(I say Sam was between 4 and 7, because according to the Wiki, Sam was born in 283 AC, and Dickon was born sometime between 287 and 290 AC.)

First of all, do you not think that this has a lasting effect on a person, especially when experienced at that young an age? Why would Sam volunteer himself for something he associates with humiliation, pain, failure, and his father going from being proud to being angry to being disgusted? Especially when it's, at most, a secondary duty in his particular job? Why does that make him lazy?

Second... you mentioned that you consider Sam the laziest of the POV characters (excluding prologues). It's true that he's not Jon, Bran, Ned, Barristan, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, Arianne, Victarion, Asha, or Brienne. (I'm missing a couple here; please assume that if I didn't mention them before, and not in the rest of the post, then they belong in the above list).

No comparison is possible between Sam and Cersei, because they're just too different in every conceivable way... and not just because Sam is a decent person and Cersei is a malignant narcissist. They also had such different expectations, limitations, and goals in their lives, that it's impossible to compare them to say which one is "lazier." Too many variables.

I would say that Theon is more lazy than Sam, pre-Reek (it becomes irrelevant after he becomes Reek, because then he's ruled by fear). He arrives at Pike with the expectation that he will just be given a prestigious command, without having to earn it, even though that's not how the Ironborn work, and is insulted when he's given a command that he feels is beneath him. Sam never does anything like that, and gratefully takes any job that doesn't involve stuff that has major fears and emotional baggage, and works diligently at it.

Sansa, too. I admire her resilience starting in ACOK, but let's face it... she waits for stuff, including her own rescue, to come to her. I wouldn't necessarily say that's more "lazy" than Sam, but it's certainly not less.

Then there's Arya. Now, Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I would never in a million years slap her with the label of, "lazy." But she spends much of AGOT doing exactly what you (falsely, at least post-AGOT... I'll cover when he was younger later in this paragraph) accuse Sam of doing: skiving off lessons that she's supposed to take in order to better become the person she was assigned to become at birth (in her case, a lady, and in his case, a lord), in favor of doing what she wants to do... what she's actually suited for. And she had far less to fear than Sam at the time... her same-sex parent "despairs" of Arya, but there's a huge difference between despair and disgust, and while she is humiliated by her shoddy needlework, she is not "cursed and caned, slapped and starved." Is she lazy? And before you mention that she's just a child in AGOT... she was 9. Sam was, at most, 7 when Dickon was born and Randyll gave up on him, and was younger than that when all of the above happened to him.

[Azarial]

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I kinda find it hard to discern how you could not have meant that by asking this: 

 Maesters have value. They counsel lords. They heal. They provide communication to the outside world. They teach the children of lords. They have value. And Randyll Tarly had another son. So why would Randyll purposely traumatize his son away from the one worthwhile job he would have been actually good at, unless he despises the very things that make Sam worthwhile?

But you can see why there was a miscommunication. I don't want to accuse you of lying, but I just want everyone to understand why I took that certain meaning. I 

Meh.  That's a stretch. Sam was able to become well-read because Randyl did not restrict him from his studies, by having a maestor teacher Sam should know reading, knowing history, are seen as necessity for the nobility to have.  If Sam did display some eye strategy, he wouldn't have beaten it out of the boy-fact he'd probably as seen it as a sighn of Sam not being totally lost if Sam came up to him to discuss a famous battle he's read about gave his analysis of and asked Randyl if he agreed; such a discussion, seeing Sam actually use his intelligence, in the right way, would generate such approval. 

To be fair, I knew exactly what  @Katerine459 meant. Because the greater conversation at that point was focused on Sams empathy, and sensitivity. Thus those qualities being the focus of the post was implied. As a result I didn't understand your point until it was explained, since I saw it differently. So, I'm sure it truly was just a misunderstanding.

@Bernie Mac I didn't bother explaining as you have twisted much of what I've said, and ignored major points I make, so I gave a short answer, as that is all I could be bothered to do given that you don't seem to be reading what I write and looking up quotes and making reasoned statements takes time that I'd rather spend with someone who is actually interested in having a discussion and not an argument for the sake of arguing. 

I said in a previous post that beheading a deserter is a punishment set by the nights watch and the crown and is the same everywhere and therefore doesn't count as an example of how one lords justice compared to another. Yet you keep using Garred as your example of Ned's justice. It is irrelevant. 

Jorah was a Lord, Ned punishing him would be done as warden of the North.

Gregor, was a small Lord, and acting on behalf of his Lord, the Lord of the Westerlands who also happened to be a Warden, and the punishment was done in Ned's role of Hand of King. 

They are not examples of him acting as a Lord. Lords do not punish other Lords. Wardens punish Regional Lords, Regional Lords punish Lords, Kings punish wardens. House Karstark can't just decide to punish the Lord of house Umber for example. That isn't how it works. House Tarly is a vassal of house Tyrell. A Lord deals with small holdfasts, landed knights, and small folk. House Tyrell punishes the Lords. 

If the concern was the spread of disease, and not a sign of him treating her differently because she is a prostitute then the men would have been washed and imprisoned until they were proven clean too. They can go and sleep with another prostitute who will then pass it on to more men as he left them running free. I'm simply saying that if the reason he punished her is what you stated, and if the treatment of soldiers and small folk is equal it would need to apply to all of them. 

It would work to get the king to declare Dickon as heir. Here is how we know. We see the king strip all lands and titles from people and families and give them to someone else. We have the example in story of Connington being removed and remaining lands and titles given to his cousin, but staying in the family. Him going into exile and coming back wouldn't happen with Sam, so don't argue that. He could be given a new name and a holdfast of his own like a landed night, as Samwell Tarlyk. Not unlike what we see with the Karstarks, younger brothers that were given a new name to differentiate them. New name, new house, no claim, problem solved. The King would grant this as it would be best for everyone, and takes minimal effort from him and Sam would want it. The only reason not to do this is Tarly's pride. He wanted Sam to die hunting or in the watch so that he could say he died doing something manly. 

[Azarial]

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

Being "lazy" does not mean that you're unwilling to do, or resentful of, hard work? Since when? What does it mean, then?

What I'm trying to understand, is exactly how many examples of hard work that Sam does willingly (rowing towards a place he dreads, taking care of the ravens, taking care of Aemon, walking to from the Fist to the Wall in heavy snow until his physical endurance gives out - which happens to others before it happens to him, researching day and night in the Vaults, etc), does it take to counter your accusation of laziness (which you seem to have supported solely on the fact that he missed one archery lesson when he lost track of time, and apparently didn't make it up, and that there's no mention of him volunteering himself for extra training).

How do you define, "lazy," to justify slapping Sam with that label, when every single example you cited that involves an actual choice on his part (all 2 of them), has a far better-supported explanation (fear and severe emotional baggage)?

Are you including the stuff that happened before Dickon was born (when Sam was between 4 and 7 years old)? This stuff?

(I say Sam was between 4 and 7, because according to the Wiki, Sam was born in 283 AC, and Dickon was born sometime between 287 and 290 AC.)

First of all, do you not think that this has a lasting effect on a person, especially when experienced at that young an age? Why would Sam volunteer himself for something he associates with humiliation, pain, failure, and his father going from being proud to being angry to being disgusted? Especially when it's, at most, a secondary duty in his particular job? Why does that make him lazy?

Second... you mentioned that you consider Sam the laziest of the POV characters (excluding prologues). It's true that he's not Jon, Bran, Ned, Barristan, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion, Catelyn, Arianne, Victarion, Asha, or Brienne. (I'm missing a couple here; please assume that if I didn't mention them before, and not in the rest of the post, then they belong in the above list).

No comparison is possible between Sam and Cersei, because they're just too different in every conceivable way... and not just because Sam is a decent person and Cersei is a malignant narcissist. They also had such different expectations, limitations, and goals in their lives, that it's impossible to compare them to say which one is "lazier." Too many variables.

I would say that Theon is more lazy than Sam, pre-Reek (it becomes irrelevant after he becomes Reek, because then he's ruled by fear). He arrives at Pike with the expectation that he will just be given a prestigious command, without having to earn it, even though that's not how the Ironborn work, and is insulted when he's given a command that he feels is beneath him. Sam never does anything like that, and gratefully takes any job that doesn't involve stuff that has major fears and emotional baggage, and works diligently at it.

Sansa, too. I admire her resilience starting in ACOK, but let's face it... she waits for stuff, including her own rescue, to come to her. I wouldn't necessarily say that's more "lazy" than Sam, but it's certainly not less.

Then there's Arya. Now, Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I would never in a million years slap her with the label of, "lazy." But she spends much of AGOT doing exactly what you (falsely, at least post-AGOT... I'll cover when he was younger later in this paragraph) accuse Sam of doing: skiving off lessons that she's supposed to take in order to better become the person she was assigned to become at birth (in her case, a lady, and in his case, a lord), in favor of doing what she wants to do... what she's actually suited for. And she had far less to fear than Sam at the time... her same-sex parent "despairs" of Arya, but there's a huge difference between despair and disgust, and while she is humiliated by her shoddy needlework, she is not "cursed and caned, slapped and starved." Is she lazy? And before you mention that she's just a child in AGOT... she was 9. Sam was, at most, 7 when Dickon was born and Randyll gave up on him, and was younger than that when all of the above happened to him.

Ah the Laziness issue. 

'cause playing nurse maid to a dying man, a sick baby, and a grieving mother while going to the docks every day to search for passage and news reports for Aemon, hauling water since Gilly is to afraid to leave the room is so easy compared to Dareon saying I want the biggest bed you have, blowing a bunch of money then saying I can't stand to be here with the baby I'll go sing (something he loves to do, and is his official job for watch, as his specific talents were considered too) and see if I can make some money for food, then blowing it on a prostitute is so much harder... somehow?

And fear of someone attacking him with a weapon, like we see with the bravo's that Arya chased away when he stuttered and froze the same night as the fight, and extreme anger overriding his fear resulting in a tussling match with no weapons, with a guy that he has trained with for months in order to not fear him as much as he would someone else is somehow proof of his fears of fighting with weapons being fake and thus laziness? apparently... 

Not doing archery while rowing, working in the rigging, mopping decks, and all the other things we hear of him doing is lazy, somehow. 

But, this is coming form the same person who thinks bathing a child in blood, declaring him useless, and threatening to kill him if he doesn't join an organization that would likely result in his death isn't abuse so...

I've enjoyed talking to you, if you start an Arya thread I'll be there as she's a great character with a complicated arc. But I've had all I can stomach of this thread and won't be coming back to it.

[Clegane'sPup]

Okay, all things being considered. When did Samwell row a boat? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On June 13, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Except they were not his men. 

You are desperate to find a possible scenario were Randyll is somehow the bad guy for saving Brienne from being raped. 

Interesting point you bring up I wonder how Tarly stopped this bet then

On June 14, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Azarial said:

said the wall is better than being under Lannister or Bolton, as we are shown through Arya how they treat the small folk.

We also get glimpses into the childhoods of Tyrion, Jaimie and Cersi, and they don't describe the peasants at Casterly Rock in general being abused, the people at Harrenthal are subjects of the Laninster enemies, there's little reason to think Tywin or most of his predecessors treated their smallfolk particularly worse than the typical lord. 

 

On June 14, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Rast is the lesson to them all. Jon threatened to kill him, no one is going to properly train with Sam now that the compassionate Jon has threatened to murder someone. his point was both clear and effective. 

A smart move on Jon's part, the only way truly, to make sure no one obeys Allister is make it so that they're more scared of Jon than the old knight.