Sam in basic training

[Mordred]

On 6/7/2018 at 5:52 PM, The Pink Letter said:

How do you feel about Sam's basic training under Thorne?  He's not a born fighter but a military order has basic training.  I just don't think Alliser could have given Sam an excuse out of basic training  because he didn't have any physical disabilities.  It would look bad to the other cadets to go easy on Sam.  

Martin was put in non-combat duty during the war.  There should be an option to serve your country (night watch in this case) besides fighting on the battle field.  For example, Sam can make arrows and repair weapons.  I see no reason to put Sam through basic combat training if he's never going to see any fighting.  But unfortunately, the old bear took Sam into combat on the other side of the wall.  That was wrong because they took him out of training and then they take him on a ranging. 

[Trigger Warning]

6 hours ago, Mordred said:

Martin was put in non-combat duty during the war.  There should be an option to serve your country (night watch in this case) besides fighting on the battle field.  For example, Sam can make arrows and repair weapons.  I see no reason to put Sam through basic combat training if he's never going to see any fighting.  But unfortunately, the old bear took Sam into combat on the other side of the wall.  That was wrong because they took him out of training and then they take him on a ranging. 

There aren't any conscientious objectors in the Night's Watch, it's a military order and everyone should receive a bear minimum of combat training so they aren't a liability to their comrades. If you're going to train someone to repair weapons and make arrows then you might as well also train them to fight because the very nature of the Night's Watch ensures that not only could you be attacked defending the wall but that you are also liable to go beyond it at any time and we see this with Sam, he's put in a non-combat role tending the ravens but that duty as most other duties is also applicable to the Night's Watch in the field so he has to go. The Night's Watch isn't in a luxurious enough of a position to shield people from the harsh realities of their duties just because they're a big softy. Sam's already shown development in this regard, he's not a lost cause so why should the Night's Watch immediately give in and just accept him being less helpful than he could be. 

Thorn's methods might or might not have made a dent given time, that doesn't mean that they should just let sam bust a big old chill whilst everyone else learns to fight and forage and work their fingers to the bone. 

[Trigger Warning]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Interesting point you bring up I wonder how Tarly stopped this bet then

 

 

The influence of being a powerful and respected lord would probably be enough but I would imagine Renly probably game him pretty extensive authority to exert command within his army, Penrose mentions Tarly as being in Renly's inner circle and he's a renowned commander besides. 

[zandru]

17 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

There aren't any conscientious objectors in the Night's Watch, it's a military order and everyone should receive a bear minimum of combat training

Sorry, but this sounds to me more like an assertion than something supported by the text.

[Trigger Warning]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Sorry, but this sounds to me more like an assertion than something supported by the text.

I thought it'd be obvious that the point I was making is that the Night's Watch as an institution would neither care nor allow someone to abstain from combat just because they disagree with it morally, the post I was replying to was talking about GRRM being a conscientious objector during Vietnam, the United States had a system to handle that and as such can give someone Conscientious Objector Status, I doubt that the Night's Watch does so it's not really comparable, it's a military order and he's already in it and as such when push comes to shove he will be expected to fight. 

So do you think the text supports the idea of the Night's Watch granting contentious objector status? Or like me would you think it's reasonable to assume that they don't. 

 

[Bowen 747]

I feel sorry for Sam.  A job in the kitchens making stews and cleaning pots is where he belonged.  Sam and food go well together.  Sam and swords do not.

[Victor Newman]

Samwell Tarly's example is one good argument for having standards to join.  Volunteers should be required to get in physical shape before getting a job for life with three hot meals.  Criminals who are sent to the wall and unfit should be given the time to get in shape before getting their get out of jail card.  Those who can't get in shape should be sent back to face punishment.  Volunteers who can't discipline themselves to get in shape should get the boot.  

I know Randyl Tarly has a problem with Samwell and doesn't want him back.  But that's a family matter to be settled among the Tarlys.  It's not the function of the watch to solve what should be a domestic issue with Randyl's household.  A young fellow like Samwell can find a way to support himself with a lot of hard work to find his own niche in the world.  I grant he might need to go over to Essos to escape papa's threat but he's a grown man for christ sakes.  Samwell has as good a chance to survive the Free Cities as did the Targaryen children, Viserys and Daenerys.  

[Katerine459]

4 hours ago, Soto Luzon said:

Samwell Tarly's example is one good argument for having standards to join.  Volunteers should be required to get in physical shape before getting a job for life with three hot meals.  Criminals who are sent to the wall and unfit should be given the time to get in shape before getting their get out of jail card.  Those who can't get in shape should be sent back to face punishment.  Volunteers who can't discipline themselves to get in shape should get the boot.  

I know Randyl Tarly has a problem with Samwell and doesn't want him back.  But that's a family matter to be settled among the Tarlys.  It's not the function of the watch to solve what should be a domestic issue with Randyl's household.  A young fellow like Samwell can find a way to support himself with a lot of hard work to find his own niche in the world.  I grant he might need to go over to Essos to escape papa's threat but he's a grown man for christ sakes.  Samwell has as good a chance to survive the Free Cities as did the Targaryen children, Viserys and Daenerys.  

I don't disagree... just one little correction: Sam wasn't a grown man. Not really. He was sent to the Watch on his 15th birthday. Which is still a child, given what we know now, and even by the standards of the day/ of the world of ASOIAF, it seems to be just on the cusp. Ned and Benjen both objected to Jon going to the Wall at nearly 15, and he's often referred to as a "boy." Robb as well, is often referred to as a "boy," and I'm guessing he'd turned 15 by the time the war started.

[zandru]

17 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

...  the United States had a system to handle that and as such can give someone Conscientious Objector Status, I doubt that the Night's Watch does so it's not really comparable, it's a military order and he's already in it and as such when push comes to shove he will be expected to fight. 

So do you think the text supports the idea of the Night's Watch granting contentious objector status? Or like me would you think it's reasonable to assume that they don't. 

I think we basically concur that there's nothing really explicit in the text about everybody in the Night's Watch being required to be a combatant. Maester Aemon wasn't, so being a maester, ancient, and blind are all permissible in members of the NW. Tyrion Lannister, a half-crippled dwarf, would have been welcomed as well.

I didn't mean to imply anything about "consciencious objector status." Sam was by no means a CO; he was in his own words, too "cowardly" to be an effective fighter, not that he had some kind of Christian moral objection. (There seem to be no non-violent Westerosi religions.) We know that this changed over time. However, even before that, Jeor and Aemon, at the urgings of Jon Snow, were able to find useful occupation for Samwell, doing things the other, more fit and fighting-trained recruits, were literally incapable of doing. They were able to make good use of Sam, in spite of the fact he was no Rambo.

Because for a long time the Night's Watch has had to depend on criminals, orphans, and scum of the earth, they've learned to make do and significantly, MAKE MEN of the wretched refuse they're sent. Samwell Tarly was no exception. I see lots of folks here getting all hot and bothered because Sam didn't train up to become another Qorin Halfhand. I think Jeor Mormont and Maester Aemon really didn't care that much that he didn't.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On June 14, 2018 at 7:24 PM, Katerine459 said:

It's my fault. I didn't explain it properly before. I totally understand why you interpreted what I wrote the way you did. There's a very fine - but important - line between what you read and what I meant to write, and I didn't write that line very well.  My apologies. And it does seem you understand my point now.

Often in these cases, the "fault" (if you can call it that) doesn't lie with just one person. Sam is terrified of Randyll, and by extension, authority figures in general. I trust we're agreed on that much? (if not, I'll do some digging when I can, and give you several dozen examples!) Because of that, if he'd ever had any instances of strategic insight while he was with Randyll (which is actually kind of unlikely, come to think of it... fear tends to shut down the higher thinking centers of the brain, which is why stage fright is a thing), he'd have kept it to himself because he would have been too afraid to speak up in Randyll's presence. So even if Randyll were inclined to show approval (which I see as about as likely as Tywin showing approval of Tyrion), he wouldn't have been given the occasion to do so. The end result, sadly, is the same - Sam grew up believing that everything about himself is worthless.

I count Sam's compassionate, gentle, and sensitive nature as "good" qualities, and it was those I mainly was thinking about when talking about Randyll trying to beat them out of him.

So do you concede Tarly  doesn't  value intelligence and learning less than the Ironborn? 

I'd like to contrast Sam with someone who's very, very much like him... or rather, this person is what Sam would have been, if Sam had been allowed to have any self-esteem growing up. Rodrik Harlaw. Rodrik's example not only shows what Sam could have been, but it also shows that even the Ironborn have more respect for intelligence and learning than Tarly... the other Ironborns' general approach to Rodrik is loving tolerance and even often valuing him for what he knows.

Like we literally have seen Victorien(whose lived and tried to to live to the expectations of his culture and done so with sucess), callously say to a Maestor in his care to quit whining about being raped by Victorien's crew and defend himself-place Sam with the Ironborn the boy would probably be dead by now his intelligence and want to learn meaning squat. 

 

[Katerine459]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So do you concede Tarly  doesn't  value intelligence and learning less than the Ironborn? 

I'd like to contrast Sam with someone who's very, very much like him... or rather, this person is what Sam would have been, if Sam had been allowed to have any self-esteem growing up. Rodrik Harlaw. Rodrik's example not only shows what Sam could have been, but it also shows that even the Ironborn have more respect for intelligence and learning than Tarly... the other Ironborns' general approach to Rodrik is loving tolerance and even often valuing him for what he knows.

Like we literally have seen Victorien(whose lived and tried to to live to the expectations of his culture and done so with sucess), callously say to a Maestor in his care to quit whining about being raped by Victorien's crew and defend himself-place Sam with the Ironborn the boy would probably be dead by now his intelligence and want to learn meaning squat. 

 

Fair point. TBH, Victarion is far from my favorite character, and the Ironborn plot is far from my favorite plotline, so I don't pay that close attention to those chapters, so I will take your word for it that it happened. I was mainly thinking of Asha's attitude toward Rodrik, which does seem to be loving tolerance of his "weird" habits, and Asha also seems to be very much a product of the Ironborn culture.

It's hard to say what would have happened if Sam had been born Ironborn. All I can say with any degree of certainty, is that he wouldn't have been allowed to gain that much weight. I still believe Sam would have turned out a lot more like Rodrik, had he been allowed any self-esteem growing up, but who's to say whether he would have been allowed that self-esteem with the Ironborn? Who's to say he'd even still be Sam?

[Varysblackfyre321]

38 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

It's hard to say what would have happened if Sam had been born Ironborn

Not really. He would have most likely would have died, or he'd still be the stuttering fearful wreck we see him AGOT. The Ironborn would simply beat the boy in hopes of fixing him; this is a culture to which does human sacrifices, and loves raping and pillaging the weak. 

38 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

I was mainly thinking of Asha's attitude toward Rodrik, which does seem to be loving tolerance of his "weird" habits, and Asha also seems to be very much a product of the Ironborn culture.

Not really else, she would be home by now, with some children instead of playing pirate. The iron islands like most of the 7 kingdoms is a patriarchal society. She's an oddity herself, one whose escapades  that's really only allowed by virtue of being Balon's daughter who found himself bereft of sons. She would even prefer the Ironborn give up the old way(something the vast majority of Ironborn would certainly not do to say the least). 

Liking to read even among the Westeroshi nobility isn't really weird.  

 

 

Victorien is near the perfect reputation of his people's mores; so much so that Pyke's spirtual leader honestly believes he's the man to which should be king, even if it means displacing Euron(who won the Kings' moot). 

His feelings upon those who cannot/will not defend themselves is clear; they deserve any abuse they suffer. 

38 minutes ago, Katerine459 said:

All I can say with any degree of certainty, is that he wouldn't have been allowed to gain that much weight.

Because the Ironborn wouldn't have given up on the boy and allowed Sam to stuff his face?

 

 I still believe Sam would have turned out a lot more like Rodrik, had he been allowed any self-esteem growing up,

 

Yeah I have to say no-if the reader had been mostly like Sam he'd never have would have been given or retained his family position.

Hell, truth be told we've been shown nothing of Rodrick  to which shows much similarlity to the boy besides a like for reading which ok, we've seen other characters love to learn, read and value education, and be virtually polar opposites.

Qyburn certianly would be one to love to read, does love to analyze things, Tyrion as well. Why not say Sam would likely turn out to be more similar to them if he had healthy self-esteem?

[hodorisfaclessman]

Yeah he needed basic training...those who dont bear swords can still die on them,esp given their principle enemy for centuries has been a clever bunch of raiders that can scale the wall 

Modern military has even logistics ,pr ,it etx  guys far from front lines getting basic training and part of that is a kind of bullying to toughen em up "if you cant handle a tough drill sarge how will you handle the ugliness of combat" is the thinking and its been proven right through the ages

That said jon does notice a flaw in the NW training that it seem to focus too much on toughening up and not enough on technique and later that they should be working with bows more (esp given the nature of the wall!)

[Tagganaro]

On 6/17/2018 at 9:34 AM, Soto Luzon said:

Samwell Tarly's example is one good argument for having standards to join.  Volunteers should be required to get in physical shape before getting a job for life with three hot meals.  Criminals who are sent to the wall and unfit should be given the time to get in shape before getting their get out of jail card.  Those who can't get in shape should be sent back to face punishment.  Volunteers who can't discipline themselves to get in shape should get the boot.  

I know Randyl Tarly has a problem with Samwell and doesn't want him back.  But that's a family matter to be settled among the Tarlys.  It's not the function of the watch to solve what should be a domestic issue with Randyl's household.  A young fellow like Samwell can find a way to support himself with a lot of hard work to find his own niche in the world.  I grant he might need to go over to Essos to escape papa's threat but he's a grown man for christ sakes.  Samwell has as good a chance to survive the Free Cities as did the Targaryen children, Viserys and Daenerys.  

I agree with this in theory, but in practice the NW having standards doesn't really work.  If the NW had any standards, it'd basically be empty and it is already dwindling.  The NW needs manpower and it needs it badly, they don't have the option to sit back and judge recruits' competence and fighting ability- they need to take whatever they're given and make the best of it.  And as has already been said, with the lack of reading, writing and basic intelligence at the Wall, Sam should have been a bit of a prized recruit, not to mention that he's the trueborn son of a major Lord in Westeros.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

On June 15, 2018 at 11:36 PM, Trigger Warning said:

 

The influence of being a powerful and respected lord would probably be enough but I would imagine Renly probably game him pretty extensive authority to exert command within his army, Penrose mentions Tarly as being in Renly's inner circle and he's a renowned commander besides. 

True. The favor of Randyl would in it of itself be worth far more than any money in the bet. I wonder however if reminded these knights of Briene's apparent favor with Renly, I mean he's allowed her into his army. She was a fine tool for the man. 

On June 15, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Trigger Warning said:

The Night's Watch isn't in a luxurious enough of a position to shield people from the harsh realities of their duties just because they're a big softy. Sam's already shown development in this regard, he's not a lost cause so why should the Night's Watch immediately give in and just accept him being less helpful than he could be. 

Hmmm. If Sam seems incapable of learning how to defend himself, would it just be easier to teach some recruits, some basic math and to read? Or would that take too much time?

[zandru]

6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I agree with this in theory, but in practice the NW having standards doesn't really work.  If the NW had any standards, it'd basically be empty and it is already dwindling.  The NW needs manpower and it needs it badly, they don't have the option to sit back and judge recruits' competence and fighting ability- they need to take whatever they're given and make the best of it.  And as has already been said, with the lack of reading, writing and basic intelligence at the Wall, Sam should have been a bit of a prized recruit, not to mention that he's the trueborn son of a major Lord in Westeros. 

Well said! Even in today's army (navy, marines, air force, space cadet force...), not everyone is required to be a Great Warrior.

I can almost imagine in the mythical all knight-populated Night's Watch of days gone by, they may have had problems finding folks willing to lower themselves to empty the chamberpots, wash the dishes, cook the food, muck out the horses' stables, take care of the hogs and chickens ... That is, unless knights brought entourages of servants to handle these plebian tasks.

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

  And as has already been said, with the lack of reading, writing and basic intelligence at the Wall, Sam should have been a bit of a prized recruit, not to mention that he's the trueborn son of a major Lord in Westeros.  

i'm sure he was, but why should he be allowed to skip the most basic training? all the nobles, like Jon and Royce, were expected to  do so even though they would be far more advanced than their other recruits. It is a simple requirement and nothing that Sam was physically incapable of not doing ( or mentally if we are being honest). 

one of the only strengths of the Watch is that everyone who joins is equal, the nobles abandon their last names and are, in theory at least treated like everyone else. 

had Tyrion joined he'd be expected to as well, and he would have passed as he was a willing fighter who would defend and counter in battle rather than lie down dead. in a military order you have to be able to count on the man next to you, even if that man is only a steward or builder. 

[Katerine459]

On 6/17/2018 at 10:27 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not really. He would have most likely would have died, or he'd still be the stuttering fearful wreck we see him AGOT. The Ironborn would simply beat the boy in hopes of fixing him; this is a culture to which does human sacrifices, and loves raping and pillaging the weak. 

Not really else, she would be home by now, with some children instead of playing pirate. The iron islands like most of the 7 kingdoms is a patriarchal society. She's an oddity herself, one whose escapades  that's really only allowed by virtue of being Balon's daughter who found himself bereft of sons. She would even prefer the Ironborn give up the old way(something the vast majority of Ironborn would certainly not do to say the least). 

Liking to read even among the Westeroshi nobility isn't really weird.  

 

 

Victorien is near the perfect reputation of his people's mores; so much so that Pyke's spirtual leader honestly believes he's the man to which should be king, even if it means displacing Euron(who won the Kings' moot). 

His feelings upon those who cannot/will not defend themselves is clear; they deserve any abuse they suffer. 

Because the Ironborn wouldn't have given up on the boy and allowed Sam to stuff his face?

 

 I still believe Sam would have turned out a lot more like Rodrik, had he been allowed any self-esteem growing up,

 

Yeah I have to say no-if the reader had been mostly like Sam he'd never have would have been given or retained his family position.

Hell, truth be told we've been shown nothing of Rodrick  to which shows much similarlity to the boy besides a like for reading which ok, we've seen other characters love to learn, read and value education, and be virtually polar opposites.

Qyburn certianly would be one to love to read, does love to analyze things, Tyrion as well. Why not say Sam would likely turn out to be more similar to them if he had healthy self-esteem?

Mostly, I agree that Sam... if he had been Sam... would probably have died under most Ironborn parents.

The reason I say that it's hard to say what would have happened to Sam if he'd been born Ironborn, is that if he'd been born to anybody other than Randyll Tarly... he wouldn't have been Sam. Sam at 6 months old was no more cowardly than any other 6-month-old baby. I believe that he was born a boy with a sensitive nature, and would have become a studious, naturally gentle person in any event... but in every other respect, he was a blank slate who became what his parents and society made of him.

If he'd been born a common Ironborn, he probably would have either grown up a farmer, or been apprenticed to a farmer. "Farmer" is a legitimate Ironborn occupation (according to Aeron's parable about the father who gives one child a sword and the other a sickle). Without the whole trauma of being forced to bathe in blood, there would have been nothing preventing Sam from becoming a perfectly acceptable farmer.

If he'd been born to Victarion... you're probably right - Victarion wouldn't have understood his son and probably would have treated him much like Randyll did, which would have yielded similar results, and then Sam would have been killed.

If he'd been born to Euron, he probably would have not only been killed, but sacrificed in some blood magic ritual.

If he'd been born to Rodrik... Rodrik, as a fellow sensitive, naturally-gentle-natured, studious person, would have understood Sam. This is what I mean when I say that they are the same... they were born with roughly the same blank slate. Sam would still have been required to learn to fight, but a) Rodrik would have hired a Master at Arms who was patient with him, and b) Rodrik himself would have been patient. He wouldn't have gone from pride to anger to disgust before Sam had even turned 7. Because of that, Sam would have actually learned how to fight, because he wouldn't have had the severe psychological and emotional baggage specifically associated with fight training, getting in his way. He would never have enjoyed fighting, any more than Rhaegar did, or, I believe, any more than Rodrik does, but he would have learned what he needed to learn.

If he'd been born to Aeron... I have no clue what Sam would have become. No clue whatsoever.

If he'd been born to Balon... now, here's where it gets interesting. Balon wouldn't have understood Sam any better than Randyll did, or any better than Victarion would have, but I believe Sam is younger than Theon, so he wouldn't have had the same expectations placed on him in the first place. When it came time to ransom a child to Ned, however... assuming Ned would have given Balon a choice about which son to give as hostage (which seems to be the custom when there's more than one legitimate choice), Sam would have been sent to Winterfell instead of Theon. Sam would have thrived at Winterfell. Ned would have given him the same kindness that he gave Theon, but Sam doesn't have it in him to bear the same chip on his shoulder that Theon did. He would have trained alongside Robb and Jon, who would have been... well, they would have been boys, but Jon would have still understood Sam the same way he understood him for real at the Wall, and they probably would have become fast friends. Rodrik Cassel probably would have been somewhat frustrated with Sam, but wouldn't have placed the same expectations on him or done the traumatic things that he'd endured from the Tarly Masters at Arms, so he would eventually have learned.

[Tagganaro]

19 hours ago, zandru said:

Well said! Even in today's army (navy, marines, air force, space cadet force...), not everyone is required to be a Great Warrior.

I can almost imagine in the mythical all knight-populated Night's Watch of days gone by, they may have had problems finding folks willing to lower themselves to empty the chamberpots, wash the dishes, cook the food, muck out the horses' stables, take care of the hogs and chickens ... That is, unless knights brought entourages of servants to handle these plebian tasks.

That's a good question haha.  I'd guess maybe the knights did bring entourages of servants, but it's just as likely there were lower born NW members assigned to do the more menial tasks.

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

i'm sure he was, but why should he be allowed to skip the most basic training? all the nobles, like Jon and Royce, were expected to  do so even though they would be far more advanced than their other recruits. It is a simple requirement and nothing that Sam was physically incapable of not doing ( or mentally if we are being honest). 

one of the only strengths of the Watch is that everyone who joins is equal, the nobles abandon their last names and are, in theory at least treated like everyone else. 

had Tyrion joined he'd be expected to as well, and he would have passed as he was a willing fighter who would defend and counter in battle rather than lie down dead. in a military order you have to be able to count on the man next to you, even if that man is only a steward or builder. 

I agree on the "basic training" idea, but I don't think people would argue what Thorne was doing, or what he was interested in doing, was really "basic training."  I don't want to say it was likely, but I think it was very possible Sam would have wound up dead had he been stuck behind with Thorne and Rast and some of those other meaner NW recruits.  

The idea that nobles are treated the same as lowborn is theoretical, but we know this isn't true from the start of the books.  Waymar Royce is given command over the ranging in the prologue with far more experienced, and lets be honest, capable NW rangers solely because of who is dad is.  

[kissdbyfire]

On 6/15/2018 at 8:08 PM, Mordred said:

But unfortunately, the old bear took Sam into combat on the other side of the wall.  That was wrong because they took him out of training and then they take him on a ranging. 

No, it wasn't wrong at all. Other stewards went as well, and Sam went specifically to tend to the ravens not fight.