Does Alliser Thorne know about Jon's true parentage?

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Alliser Thorne lost everything because of Jon's father Rhaegar. Maybe it is the reason why he doesn't like the boy.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Thorne, like everyone else, believes Jon to be the bastard of Ned Stark. Ned Stark who helped dethrone the Targaryens which led to Thorne having to join the Night's Watch. So yes, he doesn't like Ned or his bastard as he probably feels Ned'd role in the rebellion is one of the reasons he ended up on the Wall. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Alliser Thorne lost everything because of Jon's father Rhaegar. Maybe it is the reason why he doesn't like the boy.

No

[Kandrax]

Thorne lost everthing, because of rebels. He was Targaryen loyalist. If he know truth, he would treat Jon differently.

[Knight Of Winter]

Though, for a rebel-hater, Throne seems to quickly forget his distaste and support known Tywin's (the very man who ordered him to the Wall) crony as LC.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

52 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Thorne lost everthing, because of rebels. He was Targaryen loyalist. If he know truth, he would treat Jon differently.

Rhaegar himself gave rebels reason to rebel.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

3 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Though, for a rebel-hater, Throne seems to quickly forget his distaste and support known Tywin's (the very man who ordered him to the Wall) crony as LC.

But Lannisters sent Janos to the Wall in the first place. Also this man betrayed Ned whom Thorne is not fond of.

[SirArthur]

-

[Katerine459]

23 hours ago, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Alliser Thorne lost everything because of Jon's father Rhaegar. Maybe it is the reason why he doesn't like the boy.

He didn't know, because he can't have known. And if that were truly the reason he didn't like Jon, then he wouldn't have kept quiet about it.

And Thorne doesn't like anybody, except lickspittles.  And trueborn older lords that he feels deserve his respect.

[The Commentator]

On 6/8/2018 at 4:44 PM, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Alliser Thorne lost everything because of Jon's father Rhaegar. Maybe it is the reason why he doesn't like the boy.

Ah no.  He doesn't like Jon because the boy has a bad attitude and he believes Ned Stark fathered the bastard.  Besides, I don't believe Jon is Rhaegar's son.  Most likely it was either Brandon Stark or Mance Rayder who got Lyanna Stark pregnant.

[Lollygag]

Varys (keeping close track of Rhaegar was part of his job) and LF (looking for dirt on Ned, his mistress(es) and bastard(s) to try to worm his way back to Catelyn) may know, but that's about it.

Early AGOT Jon had a chip on his shoulder, he challenged Alliser directly, and Alliser's some kind of bitter in general. It was an especially volatile mix of personalities.

[kissdbyfire]

On 6/8/2018 at 5:04 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Thorne, like everyone else, believes Jon to be the bastard of Ned Stark. Ned Stark who helped dethrone the Targaryens which led to Thorne having to join the Night's Watch. So yes, he doesn't like Ned or his bastard as he probably feels Ned'd role in the rebellion is one of the reasons he ended up on the Wall. 

He probably doesn't have Benjen on his xmas list either, and my take is he's not a fan of Starks or Baratheons. Something that I've always hoped to see is Thorne and Stannis interacting. 

And as @Lollygag brought up a few posts down, Jon was arrogant and he did defy Thorne's authority, so a really volatile combo.

On 6/8/2018 at 6:31 PM, Kandrax said:

Thorne lost everthing, because of rebels. He was Targaryen loyalist. If he know truth, he would treat Jon differently.

I agree here too. I've always seen Thorne as a Targ loyalist and not someone who'd blame Rhaegar for his misfortunes.  

[SirArthur]

So R+L=J is book canon now ? There is a nice quote from aGoT, where Jon thinks, that Thorne hates the other recruits more than him. This may change later, still, I do not understand how that makes Thorne a Jon hater. The books aren't black and white I assume, and Thorne's feeling are prob. also more complex. 

[LindsayLohan]

36 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

So R+L=J is book canon now ? There is a nice quote from aGoT, where Jon thinks, that Thorne hates the other recruits more than him. This may change later, still, I do not understand how that makes Thorne a Jon hater. The books aren't black and white I assume, and Thorne's feeling are prob. also more complex. 

Consider Alliser Thorne's last words, in the books.  Jon sends Thorne, who has never been on a single ranging, out when seasoned rangers are disappearing or turning up dead.  Thorne believes, with zero ambiguity, Jon is sending him out to die. 

Ser Alliser only said, “You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I’ll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You’d best pray that it’s a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead … and they remember. I’m coming back, Lord Snow.”

Thorne swears with his last words to return as a wight and exact vengeance upon Snow.  He hates Jon, down to the core of his being.

[SirArthur]

46 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Ser Alliser only said, “You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I’ll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You’d best pray that it’s a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead … and they remember. I’m coming back, Lord Snow.”

Thorne swears with his last words to return as a wight and exact vengeance upon Snow.  He hates Jon, down to the core of his being.

Thorne uses the word "Other" all the way to curse, even before they appear in Castle Black. He tells all the recruits he hopes the Others come back with archers, because that is all the recruits deserve. It is just the way he curses. Down is Thorne speech and it is clear that he hates everyone and insult to his best knowledge, not just fan snowflake Jon. And he is purpuseful written to be hated. He calls Tyrion a fool, the very thing Cersei want Tyrion to be, he calls Jon a traitor's bastard, he calls recruits piggy. And Thorne has no chance of getting elected as LC, because all the past recruits hate him.

The very idea that he hates Jon specificly is very amusing to me. It's just his habit. 

 

"That will be all," Thorne told them. "I can only stomach so much ineptitude in any one day. If the Others ever come for us, I pray they have archers, because you lot are fit for nothing more than arrow fodder."

---

Tyrion Lannister swung off the bench and rose. "Stop it, Thorne You're frightening the boy."

"Keep out of matters that don't concern you, Lannister. You have no place here."

---

 

A striding huntsman had been worked in scarlet thread upon the breast of the fat boy's fur-trimmed surcoat. Jon did not recognize the sigil. Ser Alliser Thorne looked over his new charge and said, "It would seem they have run short of poachers and thieves down south. Now they send us pigs to man the Wall. Is fur and velvet your notion of armor, my Lord of Ham?"

---

"Let us hope you are not as inept as you look," Ser Alliser said. "Halder, see what Ser Piggy can do."

---

Thorne knew better than to challenge a knight of the Kingsguard. "You are a fool, Imp," he shouted at Tyrion's back.

---

"That's only Ser Alliser," said Sam. "Everyone knows the sort of man he is." With his noble birth, his knighthood, and his long years in the Watch, Ser Alliser Thorne might have been a strong challenger for the Lord Commander's title, but almost all the men he'd trained during his years as master-at-arms despised him. His name had been offered, of course, but after running a weak sixth on the first day and actually losing votes on the second, Thorne had withdrawn to support Lord Janos Slynt.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:44 PM, Dead headofMaelysKinslayer said:

Alliser Thorne lost everything because of Jon's father Rhaegar. Maybe it is the reason why he doesn't like the boy.

It doesn't matter who Jon's father is ? Alliser Thorne hatred of Jon is personal .

GAME OF THRONES JON;

ALLISER THORNE ,"Lord Snow wants to take my place now " he sneered, "I'd have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than you will training this auroch . "

JON SNOW", I 'll take that wager ser Alliser, I'd love to see Ghost juggle".

Jon heard Grenn suck in his breath , shock . Silence fell . Then Tyrion Lannister guffawed .Three of the Black Brothers joined in from the nearby table. Laughter spread up and down the benches ... then even Grenn began to chuckle. Alliser never took his eyes off Jon as the laughter rolled around him . his face darkened and his sword hand curled into a fist . " That was a grievous error, Lord Snow, he said at last in the acid tone of an enemy."

Besides it was Tywin Lannister sent him to the Wall .

[HexMachina]

On 6/10/2018 at 1:40 AM, kissdbyfire said:

He probably doesn't have Benjen on his xmas list either, and my take is he's not a fan of Starks or Baratheons. Something that I've always hoped to see is Thorne and Stannis interacting. 

And as @Lollygag brought up a few posts down, Jon was arrogant and he did defy Thorne's authority, so a really volatile combo.

I agree here too. I've always seen Thorne as a Targ loyalist and not someone who'd blame Rhaegar for his misfortunes.  

Agreed mostly, with the caveat that I don’t think his targ loyalties run especially deep. Sure, he supported the, in the Rebellion but I see that more as a practical move (being a Crownlands house) than fierce loyalty. The only reason I say as much is because Thorne never shows any particular closeness or fondness of Maester Aemon, which you would think he would fin he is a Targ loyalist. I suppose my view is more that he WAS a Targ loyalist and now is just bitter and resentful of his lot in life, which he takes out on his young charges by being as mean and unfair to them as he feels the world has been to him

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

Why on earth would Thorne think Rhaegar is Jon's Father? Selmy and Jaime, who were both KG's and  actually knew Rhaegar don't not know, but some random knight in KL during the war is going to know...

[JNR]

On 6/10/2018 at 3:13 AM, SirArthur said:

The very idea that he hates Jon specificly is very amusing to me. It's just his habit. 

Yes, AGOT is quite clear on this point:

Quote

Thorne hated him, Jon had decided; of course, he hated the other boys even worse. 

Naturally Thorne has less appreciation for Jon as LC than Jon as rookie recruit... but this, too, is not really personal.  Had Pyp become LC I have no doubt Thorne would have reacted similarly.

And if Thorne had somehow managed to solve the puzzle of Jon's true parentage, it would be a miracle of accurate analysis matched by very few in either his world or ours. 

[Seams]

I'll just throw in my two cents.

There's a pun on Thorne and Throne. Ser Alliser is "prickly" to everyone, like a thorn AND like the Iron Throne, which is made out of swords.

I think GRRM might be stretching out the pun a little further by showing Tyrion and Jon Snow both tease Ser Alliser. (Jon with the juggling joke and Tyrion with the crab fork in a different scene and again later when Ser Alliser goes to King's Landing to request more men for the Night's Watch.) How often do we see Jon Snow make a joke? A pretty rare event, I'd say. So GRRM had to have a very deliberate reason to show Jon Snow tease Ser Alliser.

So the pun here may be on "seat" and "tease". Both Jon Snow and Tyrion may have a reason to be "seated" on the Iron Throne, demonstrated when they "teased" Thorne.

Interestingly, Jon Snow and Tyrion both send Thorne away angry. I suppose Tywin did the same thing when he gave Thorne the choice of death or taking the black after Robert's Rebellion. Tyrion offers to give Ser Alliser shovels so the Night's Watch can bury their dead and Jon sends him off with Dywen to range beyond the Wall. I wonder what this represents? Banishing "the throne" might be a way of showing that the old Targaryen regime must end and reform must come to the monarchy? Or is it a way of saying, "Take this cup away from me" when a person feels unready to shoulder the burden of his fate? Thorne threatens to return and Jon tells him he hopes he does return.

As soon as Thorne departs with Dywen on the ranging assignment, Jon Snow decides to spar with some young Night's Watch recruits. In other words, he acts as a Master at Arms. Then he gets a major swordplay thumping from Mance-disguised-as-Rattleshirt. Mance, of course, is a symbolic Rhaegar and, I believe, Rattleshirt is a symbolic Ned. Is this lesson from his "fathers" a reminder for Jon that he is not a Master at Arms and always has room for improvement? How does that translate into a lesson for Jon's relationship with the Iron Throne? A metaphor for the challenges Jon must still endure before he can reach his destiny? A simple reminder that he is not yet ready to be king?

As soon as Jon and "Rattleshirt" finish (and Mance essentially grants mercy to Jon, whose eye he could have stabbed) a letter arrives from Ramsay Bolton updating the Night's Watch about the situation in the North with the Boltons now on top, and summoning loyal lords to the wedding between Ramsay and fArya. It takes Jon a few minutes but he thinks of a sword (the one he gave Arya), finds his direwolf has returned and goes out either to seek Melisandre or, in search of something to help him in his distress, stumbles across Melisandre. I believe this is the moment Jon is deciding whether it is worth aligning himself with dark magic to achieve his goals.

Just before running into Melisandre, he has an internal monologue that could tie back into the throne symbolism in the chapter:

Where am I going? What am I doing? Castle Black was still and silent, its hall and towers dark. My seat, Jon Snow reflected My hall, my home, my command. A ruin.

ADwD, Chapter 28, Jon VI