The cursed libido of House Frey

[Sigella]

I was just struck with this: seems like a ton of characters from House Frey is like cursed by their libido:

- Walder Frey keeps breeding even at a point where its a threat to House Frey which is grossly overpopulated,

- Gatehouse-Ami's libido shames her House at any given oppurtunity,

- Lord Walders older sister slept with a kitchen scullion got caught and handed over to lord Butterwell and he in turn lost his 2 castles and 9/10's of his land during their wedding celebration in TMK,

- Black Walder sleeps around the Twins which would breed a lot of inhouse scorn,

- Petyr Pimple followed a camp follower into the BB's hands and got hanged,

- Merret Frey's misfortunes began with getting a pox from a campfollower (which might have been why he was an easy target for Wenda)

 

Its a pretty big pattern, right?

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I was just struck with this: seems like a ton of characters from House Frey is like cursed by their libido:

- Walder Frey keeps breeding even at a point where its a threat to House Frey which is grossly overpopulated,

The Twins are not grossly overpopulated. 

Walder's libido has not been a threat to House Frey. The threat of civil war comes from the grandchildren of Walder's oldest son. None of the eleven children from his last two wives are in a position to have challenge. 

Fraticide happens in Westeros, the only way to prevent the possibility is only have one child, which is dangerous in a medieval world. Just look at the Corbrays, three brothers and two of them hate each other; Lynn is clearly conspiring against his brother. Or the Hunters, Harlan has already killed his father and Littlefinger mentions how he plans on killing his older brother. 

Or on the flip side Lord Hightower is on his fourth wife and has at least 10 children and we have heard nothing of potential rivalry there. 

In reality the problem is not so much Walder's libido but his health. His oldest grandson was born when Hoster Tully was still a child. His  sons, Stevron, Emmon and Aenys are amongst the oldest people we have seen in the series and they are all healthy enough to fight in wars. 

 

There are only so many relevant Freys because of how healthy they are. Had Walder and even Stevron died off a few years before the series began House Frey would still be as large but there would only be 6 from the main branch while the rest would be cousins, uncles and aunts which many Houses have living with them in Westeros. 

 

7 minutes ago, Sigella said:

- Gatehouse-Ami's libido shames her House at any given oppurtunity,

Can't be that much of a shame. She has an unmarried younger sister yet Ami was picked to marry Lancel and inherit the Darry lands. 

7 minutes ago, Sigella said:

- Lord Walders older sister slept with a kitchen scullion got caught and handed over to lord Butterwell and lost her head in TMK,

Neither she or her husband lost her head. 

 

[Sigella]

Not over-populated, huh? I encourage you to have a look at the Merret chapter.

Ami got caught with three stable boys, had to marry beneath her station but was widowed and had to marry Lancel (whom choose not to choose his bride iirc) and is currently sitting at Castle Darry ripe for hanging.

Ok, not beheaded but hanged? Mute point.

 

If you can't get with the idea that excessive breeding could be a bad thing that is fine, but your arguments doesn't sink my boat.

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Not over-populated, huh? I encourage you to have a look at the Merret chapter.

Yes, not over populated. Merrett's worries are not about the twins being big enough, his worry is that now his brother Stevron is dead, once his father is gone there is going to be little reason for a nephew or great nephew to carry on supporting his useless ass. That is why he is actively trying to make himself useful. 

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Ami got caught with three stable boys, had to marry beneath her station but was widowed and had to marry Lancel (whom choose not to choose his bride iirc)

Exactly. Kevan and Walder had two options for who to marry Lancel, Ami or her sister. The fact that Ami was chosen kind of disproves how 'shameful' her family or even outsiders were to her marriage. 

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

and is currently sitting at Castle Darry ripe for hanging.

They may well be, but that has nothing to do with their libido. 

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Ok, not beheaded but hanged? Mute point.

No, not hanged. Lord Butterwell saw his lands reduced, neither he nor his wife faced execution for what happened. 

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

 

If you can't get with the idea that excessive breeding could be a bad thing that is fine, but your arguments doesn't sink my boat.

Your arguments are flawed. It is a squabble between the grandsons of Walder's oldest son Stevron, whether Walder stopped at 5 or 50 children does not change who is competing for the Twins. 

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, not over populated. Merrett's worries are not about the twins being big enough, his worry is that now his brother Stevron is dead, once his father is gone there is going to be little reason for a nephew or great nephew to carry on supporting his useless ass. That is why he is actively trying to make himself useful. 

Exactly. Kevan and Walder had two options for who to marry Lancel, Ami or her sister. The fact that Ami was chosen kind of disproves how 'shameful' her family or even outsiders were to her marriage. 

They may well be, but that has nothing to do with their libido. 

No, not hanged. Lord Butterwell saw his lands reduced, neither he nor his wife faced execution for what happened. 

Your arguments are flawed. It is a squabble between the grandsons of Walder's oldest son Stevron, whether Walder stopped at 5 or 50 children does not change who is competing for the Twins. 

My point has nothing to do with the size of the Twins, my point is that House Frey is now so populous that it is divided, fractioned and inflated. Inflated because the supply greatly outnumbers the demand, hence their value sinks like a rock. Divided by which wife of Walder they come from. Fractioned by suspicion, greed and mistrust. "You can only trust full siblings and them not very far" sums it up nice. You can argue all you want for how over populating is super awesome but I'm not like to buy into it.

Marrying promiscous/disobedient girls off seems like the go to westerosi sollution so I don't see a problem. Lancel is less of a price pig himself as well in his current condition.

If her libido got het married off to Darry and thereby an easy target for the BB its in line with my premise.

Whitewalls was razed to rubble, their lands was strewn with salt and house Butterwell was made extinct. Might have been at a later point than TMK, though. Still, not a very sweet deal for Walders sister.

edit: I see that they were only stripped of their castles and 9/10's of their lands but possibly not made extinct. I was wrong about them getting killed, sure. But I'm not wrong in that it was Walders sisters libido that got her thrown into a pretty crappy life.

[Bernie Mac]

50 minutes ago, Sigella said:

My point has nothing to do with the size of the Twins, my point is that House Frey is now so populous that it is divided, fractioned and inflated.

As is the much smaller House Corbray and House Hunter while the larger House Hightower is united.  The amount of children Walder had is not the problem. Rickard Karstark only has four children, it has not stopped his uncle from trying to usurp his great nephew's lands. 

 

The medieval age was full of ambitious relatives no matter the size of the House. And Edwyn and his brother Black Walder hate each other, that has nothing to do with how many great uncles they have and all to do with how poorly Ryman Frey raised his sons. 

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Inflated because the supply greatly outnumbers the demand, hence their value sinks like a rock.

How so?  Merret Frey is the 53rd in line in the succession, thought at the time of his marriage he was probably only 20th, line of House Frey, he managed to marry a daughter of Lord Darry back when they were still a prominent House. How many other Houses have such high marriages for their 20th in line? 

 

 

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Divided by which wife of Walder they come from.

Same may be true for many families, it is natural to have a closer bond with a true brother than it is a half brother. Lord Hightower is on wife no4. People remarry. 

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Fractioned by suspicion, greed and mistrust. "You can only trust full siblings and them not very far" sums it up nice.

Again, smaller houses  have brothers who are fractured by greed, mistrust and suspicion. The amount of siblings does not play a part. You are stretching. 

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You can argue all you want for how over populating is super awesome but I'm not like to buy into it.

They have not overpopulated. The Twins are two castles, they likely can House close to a thousand. And there is zero evidence in the books that the Twins can not House all the living Freys.

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Marrying promiscous/disobedient girls off seems like the go to westerosi sollution so I don't see a problem. Lancel is less of a price pig himself as well in his current condition.

He is the new Lord of Darry, he quite clearly is a prize, quite literally so as this was one of the prizes for Walder's role in the Red Wedding. 

Quite clearly Ami can not be thought of as that shameful otherwise Kevan would never have picked her over his sister.

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If her libido got het married off to Darry and thereby an easy target for the BB its in line with my premise.

How is she an easy target? The people the BB have killed so far have lived in the Twins. By that logic she has became a harder target for the BB. Her libido may well save her. 

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Whitewalls was razed to rubble, their lands was strewn with salt and house Butterwell was made extinct.

No, he lost most of his lands including his brand new castle, but not all of them. Butterwell and his wife were spared, not murdered.

"Treason is no less vile because the traitor proves a craven," Lord Rivers was saying. "I have heard your bleatings, Lord Ambrose, and I believe one word in ten. On that account I will allow you to retain a tenth part of your fortune. You may keep your wife as well. I wish you joy of her."

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Might have been at a later point than TMK, though. Still, not a very sweet deal for Walders sister.

She was married to a Lord, much better than marrying a brother of a Lord. The majority of noble daughters don't marry Lords, they marry other nobles. It was a good marriage, though obviosuly it could have been an even better one. 

And how the fuck can you blame her libido for her husband plotting a rebellion against the crown? That is some mental gymnastics you are trying to pull to justify your hatred of sex. 

 

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And how the fuck can you blame her libido for her husband plotting a rebellion against the crown? That is some mental gymnastics you are trying to pull to justify your hatred of sex. 

I blame her libido for getting her married off with an traitor to the crown. Which isn't untrue no matter what insults you hurl my way. 

Anyway it's obvious there is absolutely no point in discussing this with you. This isn't the first time you go on furious attack on me personally and I think your mislike towards me makes you pull straw-men out your ass.

[Bernie Mac]

13 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I blame her libido for getting her married off with an traitor to the crown.

He was not a traitor when they were betrothed. And your original claim was that she was executed, which was not true, you based your assumption on something that did not actually happen in the books and now are refusing to back down on your original conclusion despite that it was clearly wrong. 

That sister married a Lord, who remained a Lord even after the events of the Mystery Knight. Her two, presumably older sisters, were not married to Lords. She still bagged the best husband regardless of her libido. 

13 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Anyway it's obvious there is absolutely no point in discussing this with you. This isn't the first time you go on furious attack on me personally and I think your mislike towards me makes you pull straw-men out your ass.

Please point out which straw man arguments you think I have made in this discussion?

 

Look, your original premise is flawed. If Walder Frey is cursed it is not because of his libido, it is because of how prideful he is and his petty desire for revenge when a more pragmatic approach may have been wiser and seen Robb eventually punished, just not by his hand(and possibly not even when Walder was still alive). 

Blaming his libido is like blaming his health, as he is extremely long lived for a Westerosi person, he should have died years, perhaps even decades ago. 

 

Plus it is such a weird thing to single out Walder for given there are many characters in the series who can genuinly feel that their libido cursed them

 

• Rhaegar and Lyanna, some restraint and not only would they both have lived but so would thousands of others
• Robert; had he too been less obvious Lyanna would never have heard the stories about him and may have married him
• Jaime and Cersei, doomed the realm to civil war
• Robb; having sex with Jeyne could be blamed for his demise, though I tend to think it was more down to his honour and pride
• Tywin, sleeping with Tyrion's 'whore' may well have cost him his life
• Tyrion bringing the whore to Kings Landing ultimately doomed him

 

Walder however is not cursed because he likes sex, but his pride.

[Targaryen Restoration]

16 hours ago, Sigella said:

I was just struck with this: seems like a ton of characters from House Frey is like cursed by their libido:

- Walder Frey keeps breeding even at a point where its a threat to House Frey which is grossly overpopulated,

- Gatehouse-Ami's libido shames her House at any given oppurtunity,

- Lord Walders older sister slept with a kitchen scullion got caught and handed over to lord Butterwell and lost her head in TMK,

- Black Walder sleeps around the Twins which would breed a lot of inhouse scorn,

- Petyr Pimple followed a camp follower into the BB's hands and got hanged,

- Merret Frey's misfortunes began with getting a pox from a campfollower (which might have been why he was an easy target for Wenda)

 

Its a pretty big pattern, right?

Would you criticize the Martells?  Oberyn got around.  Brandon Stark got around too.  And Robert B. who didn't even bother to support most of his bastards.  Walder can support his bastards because he's so rich.  His house is not overpopulated.  There are houses with a lot of members.  The Greyjoys for one.  The Lannisters themselves are plentiful.  

[Sigella]

51 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Would you criticize the Martells?  Oberyn got around.  Brandon Stark got around too.  And Robert B. who didn't even bother to support most of his bastards.  Walder can support his bastards because he's so rich.  His house is not overpopulated.  There are houses with a lot of members.  The Greyjoys for one.  The Lannisters themselves are plentiful.  

None of them are complaining of how hard it is to find marriages for their kids, Walder does.

[Sigella]

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Please point out which straw man arguments you think I have made in this discussion?

 

Sure:

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The amount of children Walder had is not the problem. Rickard Karstark only has four children, it has not stopped his uncle from trying to usurp his great nephew's lands.

 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Same may be true for many families

 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lord Hightower is on wife no4. People remarry. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

it is such a weird thing to single out Walder for given there are many characters in the series who can genuinly feel that their libido cursed them

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

• Rhaegar and Lyanna, some restraint and not only would they both have lived but so would thousands of others
• Robert; had he too been less obvious Lyanna would never have heard the stories about him and may have married him
• Jaime and Cersei, doomed the realm to civil war
• Robb; having sex with Jeyne could be blamed for his demise, though I tend to think it was more down to his honour and pride
• Tywin, sleeping with Tyrion's 'whore' may well have cost him his life
• Tyrion bringing the whore to Kings Landing ultimately doomed him

 

 

[Van Gogh]

I am a firm believer in procreating only when the parent has the resources to properly take care of the offspring.  To that end, I don't condemn Walder for having many children because he has the resources to take care of them and he does.  Unlike the other men who produce bastards.  Walder gets an unfair amount of hate because of his role in diminishing the Starks but the things he does actually follows logic.  Mortality was high before modern medical practices came along.  It is sensible to produce many children to guarantee the family's survival.   

[Bernie Mac]

22 hours ago, Sigella said:

None of them are complaining of how hard it is to find marriages for their kids, Walder does.

No, he is actually not. He is bitter over the fact that some Houses, such as the Tully's, look down on him and have refused his offers of marriage alliances. 

 The fact that he is on wife no 6 and Stevron was on wife no3 or that even his bastard Walder Rivers had a bride from a Lordly House  and the huge amount of married Frey's there actually is should dispel this notion that it is hard for Walder to find marriages, it clearly is not. 

• He had four children with his first wife and all four of them were married. 
• He had two children with his second wife, one married and one a member of he Faith, infact Luceon was almost made the High Septon before the Sparrow took over
• He had 7 children with his 3rd wife, they were all married, even the hapless Merrett Frey who was the runt of the litter and still managed to land a daughter of Lord Darry
• He had 5 children with his 4th wife, 4 married including lame Lothar, one daughter has not. 
• He had 5 children with his 5th wife, 2 are married, 1 a Maester  of the two who are not Olyvar is still a teenager
• He has 6 children with his 6th wife, the oldest is 14. 

Basically when it comes to his many, many childen there is only one who is notably not married, Tyta. Perwyn is in his early 20's. 

 

23 hours ago, Sigella said:

Sure:

 

None of those are strawman arguments though. By all means explain why you think they are, but I think you have misunderstood the phrase. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 6/8/2018 at 11:39 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Can't be that much of a shame. She has an unmarried younger sister yet Ami was picked to marry Lancel and inherit the Darry lands. 

Strictly speaking the castle should have  gone to Little Walder. 

But they needed to give it to the Lannisters to keep Tywin sweet.  Marrisa is 14 and Amerei is 18 it is far safer to try to get a child from Amerei and the thing you need to do if you want to keep hold of a castle which the brides family are more entitled to than the grooms is get an heir ASAP.  Because then if they renege and claim it for Little Walder after all.  They are screwing over their own grandchild.   Which they are less likely to do. Marrisa could get pregnant of course she could. But it is safer for an 18 year old to birth and gestate a child than a 14 year old by a significant amount.  

So choosing Amerei over Marrisa won't have had anything to do with her reputation. 

[Bernie Mac]

9 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Strictly speaking the castle should have  gone to Little Walder. 

No, the Crown had given the Darry lands to Lancel.

Cersei forced herself to smile. "Lancel, I am happy to see you looking so much stronger. Maester Ballabar brought us such dire reports, we feared for your life. But I would have thought you on your way to Darry by now, to take up your lordship." Her father had made Lancel a lord after the Battle of the Blackwater, as a sop to his brother Kevan.

His father thought that him marrying someone with Darry blood would make it easier for the peasants to obey

A gloomy look passed across the young knight's ravaged face. "A Frey girl, and not of my choosing. She is not even maiden. A widow, of Darry blood. My father says that will help me with the peasants, but the peasants are all dead."

Ami is just the partner of the Lord of Darry, she has not inherited it herself. 

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, the Crown had given the Darry lands to Lancel.

Cersei forced herself to smile. "Lancel, I am happy to see you looking so much stronger. Maester Ballabar brought us such dire reports, we feared for your life. But I would have thought you on your way to Darry by now, to take up your lordship." Her father had made Lancel a lord after the Battle of the Blackwater, as a sop to his brother Kevan.

His father thought that him marrying someone with Darry blood would make it easier for the peasants to obey

A gloomy look passed across the young knight's ravaged face. "A Frey girl, and not of my choosing. She is not even maiden. A widow, of Darry blood. My father says that will help me with the peasants, but the peasants are all dead."

Ami is just the partner of the Lord of Darry, she has not inherited it herself. 

 

 

Saying it this way round iwa just a polite way of talking about what was done. 

This is the same as Sansa's marriage to Tyrion in some ways. She hasn't inherited WF at all has she. Tywin has given WF to Tyrion. Or should I say Joffrey has but we know who the real organ grinder is.  Tywin wants her for her claim. But if she didn't exist he'd still claim WF and try to find Tyrion a wife with at least a drop or two of Stark blood to make things appear to be being done correctly. 

If the correct procedure was being followed, as I said Little Walder would have inherited it.  But for political reasons Lancell is getting the Castle & Lands and Titles. 

And in order to give the veneer of propriety he is made to marry Ami. Who has Darry blood. If Little Walder didn't exist she'd have been the heir as eldest, after their mother. But he does exist and the Lannisters & Freys are usurping his birth right. So better make sure to cover that shit up a bit by having Lancell wed his oldest sister.  

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

None of those are strawman arguments though. By all means explain why you think they are, but I think you have misunderstood the phrase. 

 

No they are all on the nose ad populum fallacies but I felt that you pulling straw men out your ass painted a better picture.

[Bernie Mac]

48 minutes ago, Sigella said:

No they are all on the nose ad populum fallacies but I felt that you pulling straw men out your ass painted a better picture.

please explain why? 

Having lots of children has not cursed Walder any more than it cursed Cregan Stark, Robert Baratheon or Lord Hightower. What has cursed him is his pride and his choice to break guest rights. 

58 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Saying it this way round iwa just a polite way of talking about what was done. 

This is the same as Sansa's marriage to Tyrion in some ways. She hasn't inherited WF at all has she. Tywin has given WF to Tyrion.

No Sansa would have inherited, she would have been the Lady while he would have been the partner to the ruler. 

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. 

Lancel has been given the Lordship, similar to how Aegon gave Orys Storm's End, he could have married whoever he wanted but choose someone who the local populace would be happy with. 

58 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Or should I say Joffrey has but we know who the real organ grinder is.  Tywin wants her for her claim. But if she didn't exist he'd still claim WF and try to find Tyrion a wife with at least a drop or two of Stark blood to make things appear to be being done correctly. 

Not exactly. That is the whole reason the Tyrells and and Lannisters are trying to marry Sansa, for her claim. 

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. 

58 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If the correct procedure was being followed, as I said Little Walder would have inherited it.  But for political reasons Lancell is getting the Castle & Lands and Titles. 

No, the Darrys were stripped of their lands. The Crown has the power to give them to whoever they want just like they did with Brightwater Keep, Riverrun and multiple time with Harrehal. 

Kevan is astute though, he realizes that while Lancel might be the legal ruler, him marrying a person of Darry blood may quell civil unrest from Lancel's new subjects. 

 

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

please explain why? 

Having lots of children has not cursed Walder any more than it cursed Cregan Stark, Robert Baratheon or Lord Hightower. What has cursed him is his pride and his choice to break guest rights. 

No Sansa would have inherited, she would have been the Lady while he would have been the partner to the ruler. 

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. 

Lancel has been given the Lordship, similar to how Aegon gave Orys Storm's End, he could have married whoever he wanted but choose someone who the local populace would be happy with. 

Not exactly. That is the whole reason the Tyrells and and Lannisters are trying to marry Sansa, for her claim. 

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. 

No, the Darrys were stripped of their lands. The Crown has the power to give them to whoever they want just like they did with Brightwater Keep, Riverrun and multiple time with Harrehal. 

Kevan is astute though, he realizes that while Lancel might be the legal ruler, him marrying a person of Darry blood may quell civil unrest from Lancel's new subjects. 

 

 

 

Dear god, you are arguing semantics. Give it up. 

[Bernie Mac]

20 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Dear god, you are arguing semantics. Give it up. 

Give what up, stating the facts? 

Tyrion was not made Lord of Winterfell, Lance was made Lord of Darry. This is not a case of semantics, but describing what actually happened.